John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of this morning's meeting is to review the provisions contained in the draft statutory instrument for the small public service vehicle (consolidation and reform) regulations 2014 with representatives of the National Transport Authority, NTA. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Hugh Creegan, director of transport investment and taxi regulation at the NTA. Apologies have been received from Mr. Gerry Murphy, who cannot attend.
I draw Mr. Creegan's attention to the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, he is protected by absolute privilege in respect of his evidence to the committee. However, if he is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and he continues to do so, he is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his evidence. He is directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and is asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, he should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I also wish to advise the witnesses that the opening statements submitted to the committee will be published on the committee's website following this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or persons outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now invite Mr. Creegan to make his opening statement.

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend this meeting. I understand that the committee wishes to focus on the draft Small Public Service Vehicle (Consolidation and Reform) Regulations 2014 which have recently been the subject of public consultation. Small public service vehicles include taxis, hackneys and limousines. Following a Government decision of June 2011 a wide-ranging review of the industry, chaired by the Minister of State with responsibility for public and commuter transport, Deputy Alan Kelly, was carried out. The resultant review report was published in January 2012. The aim of the review was to secure consumer confidence in the taxi system by ensuring that an appropriate regulatory framework is in place and is adequately enforced.

The National Transport Authority was given responsibility for implementing the vast majority of actions, including enactment of the necessary statutory instruments. Certain actions required primary legislation to be enacted. The Taxi Regulation Act 2013 was enacted at the end of last year and it included all the required legislative changes needed to deliver on the review’s actions. Some sections of the Act have been commenced but the main body of it is to be commenced in the coming months in tandem with the consolidated regulations. The draft regulations were released for public consultation on 19 December 2013. Submissions could be made until 31 January 2014. A total of 242 submissions were received.

The advisory committee on small public service vehicles, a statutory group appointed by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to represent the operators within the industry and various other relevant stakeholders, will also set out its views directly to the authority. All of these views will be considered by the board of the authority when it convenes later this month to decide on the regulations. As part of this deliberative process, I will bring the views of this committee to the attention of the board of the authority.

As regards what is contained in the draft regulations, first, they consolidate all existing taxi regulations into one statutory instrument, bringing together regulations made over the past 50 years. Second, various new regulations have been included to give effect to the requirements of the Government review. The appendix overleaf includes a list of key changes proposed. I hope I can address any queries arising.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Creegan for his presentation. I would like first to establish the reason the decision was taken to enact these regulations by way of statutory instrument. In my view, the volume of information contained in the regulations should be included in primary legislation. In my experience statutory instruments are used for updating rules and procedures. They are generally not of the volume contained in the draft regulations before us. I would have thought it better to have this dealt with by way of primary legislation. Perhaps Mr. Creegan would comment on that.

I would like now to discuss with Mr. Creegan some concerns which I have raised previously at this committee. Based on the consultations I have had with taxi drivers and various groups there is a lack of belief in the taxi advisory committee. The information I have from a diverse group of taxi drivers and representative groups is that it is not working from a taxi driver's point of view. Perhaps Mr. Creegan would also comment on that matter.

There is concern in the industry around the decision taken by the National Transport Authority regarding the introduction of a new class of taxi licence, namely, a smaller wheelchair accessible vehicle. In this regard changes have been made to the regulations to provide that a small vehicle may carry only one passenger together with the person in the wheelchair. A further change is that such vehicle must be only six years old or newer, while previously the requirement was that it be only three years old or newer. The general understanding around the necessity to improve the qualitative nature of taxis was that it also provided a way of dealing with the quantitative issue that has arisen because of the proliferation of the issuance of licences, which has had a negative impact on the industry as a whole. This leads me on to the Indecon report, in which it is suggested that in the issuance of the licence the NTA would outline to taxi drivers the fact that there was a level of over-subscription in the business and that it was virtually impossible to make a decent living out of it. This appears to have been excluded from the overall approach taken. The Indecon report states that initiatives to produce credible market information on the extent of low incomes and low taxi utilisation in the sector should be implemented and highlighted to discourage uninformed new entrants to the sector. In providing increased market information, it would be beneficial to ensure that potential entrants have accurate information about possible earnings in the sector. Information on utilisation rates and earnings with dispatch firms might also be beneficial for existing as well as potential entrants. This does not appear to have been taken on board.

There is also concern in regard to the new licence grade for the smaller wheelchair accessible vehicle in that it must be loaded from the rear, which may have implications for people seeking to get into the taxi at a taxi rank and may have some implications for road safety. I would welcome Mr. Creegan's comments on that matter. It appears to be yet another backdoor way of increasing the volume of licences and the concern is that the market will be flooded with this type of vehicle with no guarantee that it will in any way increase the level of response from those with that particular licence grade to attend or meet the needs of the wheelchair community.

Another concern is the dormant or inactive licence in respect of which the duration has been reduced from five years to one year. That is overly restrictive. There are many reasons why a person might find himself or herself out of the business for a period, including inability to keep a car on the road, ill-health and so on. I would be hopeful that the authority could find its way to restoring the duration in that regard to five years.

Other concerns relate to the preclusion from advertising. I do not see the logic in that. To me, it does not appear to be a problem. I use public transport and have not as yet seen any advertising which I believed to be distasteful or overly commercial. There is concern among some in the industry that this is a case of the NTA taking control, with it ultimately charging a fee to allow for advertising which it deems appropriate. I believe that would be a retrograde step. Concern has also been expressed about how dormant licences are being bought up. It is suggested that these are being connected to a vehicle within the three year age group and later transferred on, which is not helpful to the business generally.

Questions have been raised about the driver check application and the glitch in the system that appears to allow a third party to change a driver's details without permission. I would welcome Mr. Creegan's comments on that issue. Concern has also been expressed about the Luas construction works in Dublin and the impact they are having on the ranks and the lack of replacement ranks during the period of construction.

The taxi industry generates approximately €5 million annually by way of licence fees. Despite this, there is no investment by the NTA in the infrastructure of the service.

There is real concern about the transfer of licences and particularly the inability to transfer them, and the witness would not be surprised to hear that. There are concerns from drivers who would like to see the national car test and SGS verification provided at one location. That is an operational issue. There are also concerns about driver vetting, although I must be careful as I should not give the impression that we are being racist in any way. There may be an inability to do an appropriate background check on somebody who does not come from this State, so will the witness comment on that?

Regulations deal with part-time drivers and there is a requirement to notify employers, which seems to be a box-ticking exercise rather than actively seeking confirmation from the principal employer of the individual concerned that notification has been given that the person is participating in part-time taxi work. My understanding is the regulations set out a requirement that somebody cannot drive a taxi or small public service vehicle for greater than 11 hours at a time but how can that be enforced? There is also the introduction of the credit card system and the expectation that drivers will have to carry the cost associated with that credit transaction, with drivers not being able to charge for the additional cost of providing the service.

That is a flavour of the concerns expressed to me by numerous taxi drivers. There are others and I am sure other members will be able to add to them. Will the witness provide the rationale for this from the National Transport Authority?

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

There were many items in the list so I will do my best to ensure I deal with them. There was a question regarding the reason behind enforcing regulations rather than putting them in primary legislation. The primary legislation sets up the framework and a recent piece of primary legislation went through this committee last year and was enacted at the end of 2013. The drafters of the legislation had access to existing regulations and took the view that they would put in place an appropriate framework; it would be up to us as the licensing authority to develop details in regulations, which is what we attempted to do. There are 50 or 60 sets of regulations and this is much smaller than the composite that currently exists.

The Deputy mentioned that there is a lack of belief in the taxi advisory committee and it is not working from the taxi driver's perspective. It is a separate statutory body so I will not speak for it. From the National Transport Authority perspective, we have engaged with the advisory committee a great deal and it contains several representatives of the taxi industry in its membership, along with people from other interest groups from other sectors of society. We value the input from the group and we will amend draft regulations based on the feedback from that group. We believe it is working and it is a valuable resource giving direct feedback of industry views and those from other parts of society. In the final regulations that we hope to adopt, we will take on board some of the views given to us.

The Deputy mentioned a concern about smaller wheelchair-accessible vehicles. One of the biggest issues facing the industry is the very limited number of wheelchair-accessible vehicles. In 2008 there were 1,600 wheelchair-accessible vehicles serving the country but the number is now 916, which is almost half of what it was. The 2008 number was not an oversupply because of the number of wheelchair users needing these vehicles. The balance was more or less right at that stage but now we are at half that number. We get much information about people in wheelchairs waiting for long periods to complete a journey so the issue must be addressed.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Were there changes regarding the age of the vehicle which forced 70 or 80 people out of the business? There was a requirement to have a newer vehicle but that requirement was abandoned at a later stage, meaning the required upper age limit went from three to six years. Is it not the case that the approach taken has, perhaps inadvertently, pushed people out of the business? If people are getting out, they clearly do not see a business in this area, so introducing a possibility for a smaller vehicle that is cheaper to license still does not guarantee that individuals will pick up the fares of people who need it most. This is a cheap entry point but will these smaller vehicles ply the regular trade like everybody else? The unfortunate individuals depending on wheelchair-accessible vehicles will still be in the same position.

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

It would be hard to pick up somebody in a wheelchair if the taxi is not wheelchair-accessible. We are aware of the possibility that people may get these vehicles and perhaps not use them for their intended purpose. It is in the regulations that priority is meant to be given to bookings for wheelchair-accessible vehicles, and that is something we can police to a certain extent, although I do not want to present the picture that we can police it totally. If we become aware of people not giving any bookings to wheelchair-accessible vehicles, we can deal with the issue. The core issue is that if the vehicle does not exist in the fleet, a person cannot be picked up. I would prefer to deal with the previous problem rather than not having enough suitable vehicles in the fleet.

The Deputy referred to regulatory changes. The taxi regulation review report adopted by the Government at the start of 2012 set an age limit for vehicles in the longer term of not more than nine years but allowed that existing vehicles in the fleet could operate for up to 15 years. That position was reached as part of the process we went through and it was adopted in the report and introduced to use approximately 18 months ago. A number of wheelchair-accessible vehicles were reaching the age limit and when that happened, people had the choice to replace the vehicle with another wheelchair-accessible vehicle and licence or buy a second-hand taxi licence with a standard saloon car. The truth is it is much more expensive to provide larger wheelchair-accessible vehicles, so many people exited the wheelchair-accessible market and bought standard licences and vehicles. In order to stem the tide of people dropping out of the industry, we provided a band aid in removing the age limit. We would then try to remedy the issue by way of regulations.

The vehicles in question are top class, with type approval and meeting all safety standards. They are used across the UK in a myriad of jurisdictions, as I checked before coming here. There are different licensing authorities across the UK and 119 of them use the type of vehicle that we are proposing for use here. I can understand some of the concerns of the industry if we consider the bigger picture and see there is a massive problem in the insufficient number of wheelchair-accessible vehicles. It would be inappropriate if we did not allow this type of vehicle in common use elsewhere and say they were not suitable for Ireland. We have mentioned the taxi advisory committee and it had a demonstration of a model. It was recognised that this is a modern vehicle capable of carrying people very easily, successfully and safely. As the vehicle is in wide use, it is perfectly suitable for use here, and there is no rational reason it is not suitable for Ireland.

The Deputy mentioned the three-year and six-year limits.

With regard to buying a new wheelchair accessible licence, there has been no three year rule in existence for a number of years. In fact, if one buys a new wheelchair accessible licence now, one is allowed to put a vehicle up to ten years of age on that licence, so there is no three year age rule for wheelchair accessible vehicles. There is for people who are transferring certain taxis, but that is not what the Deputy is referring to in this case. We still want to get a degree of quality in the industry so we have proposed a six year maximum age at the point of entry in the draft regulations. We are coming down from the current situation, which is larger vehicle only but it can be up to ten years of age, to the proposed situation which is large and medium-sized vehicles - I would not call them small - but the vehicles should be less than six years of age at the point when one gets the new licence.

In the report regarding the over-supply in the industry and the provision of information on wages and income performance, as part of a taxi fare review in 2012 we carried out surveys and published them. They indicated fare income levels. We will carry out another fare review this year and conduct the same survey. We will try to capture some indication of the income level and we will happily publish that as well.

In terms of the dormant and inactive licences and the reduction from five years to one year, in the past people could let their licence lapse and reactivate it within five years. Again, the taxi regulation review report which was adopted by the Government contained a recommendation to reduce the five year period to a one year period, so we are merely reflecting the outcome of that process.

On the advertising on vehicles, we proposed in the draft regulations that there would be a prohibition on advertising. At present, there are no controls on advertising and we get complaints, particularly about electronic signs at the back of vehicles because people travelling behind them get distracted or blinded by those signs. We are coming from a situation where there are no controls and we proposed initially that there should be a total prohibition but we think, on reflection, that the position is some place in the middle. We will be proposing to our board is that we would preclude the use of the electronic signs, about which we have received complaints as they cause problems, preclude the use of advertising on the front doors of the vehicle, because we have just branded them with the signage one sees on the front doors, and so we can monitor the industry we would preclude the use of advertising that has discriminatory or racist content - that is not a problem but it just gives us a tool whereby if there was a problem we could deal with it - but after that we recognise that the current position we adopted is not correct. We will be proposing that advertising continues to be allowed in vehicles, subject to the limitations I outlined.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Would that still allow the taxi co-operatives or companies to retain their logo? In my local area elderly people use a taxi to go to Tesco, Dunnes Stores, Lidl, Aldi or SuperValu and to an elderly individual they all look the same, but they know whether it is a particular taxi company. A few people have told me they are deeply concerned about that so if it was permissible, it would be appreciated.

Mr. Huge Creegan:

It was our intention that the roof sign would continue to contain the name of the taxi company to which the taxi is affiliated. That will continue to be the case.

With regard to the driver check app and the fact that unintended changes could occur on it, we have been aware of that since the day we designed the app. One must get the balance between the taxi driver being easily able to use it on the one hand and really high security to the point it becomes difficult to use on the other hand. We pitched it at a place where we think it is right. If a driver is incorrectly knocked off-----

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Perniciously.

Mr. Huge Creegan:

Exactly. The only people who can do that are people who have log in details from us. If the Deputy did it, for example, we would have in our records the fact that he was the person who did it. The concern was that we might be prosecuting the poor driver who was inadvertently knocked off the system. We would not do that. As soon as he tells us he was logged on and something must have happened, we have the record available to see what happened and see who did it. We are going to add into the draft regulations a provision to state that such malicious behaviour is an offence and we can deal with it. It is not there at present, but it will be added.

On the Luas ranks issue, there is disruption to many people as a result of building the Luas project through the city. We are trying to manage that. There has been a great deal of engagement with the taxi industry. In terms of the temporary works, each time a rank is affected replacement ranks are identified. That is not to say everybody is happy all the time because they are not, but people are doing their best to try to get the best replacement package possible. With regard to the longer term, a certain amount of rank space is being lost in the long term and there are plans for an equivalent amount of replacement. For the drivers, 56 full-time ranks will be lost through the Luas work but we expect to have more than 56 full-time ranks back by the end of it. Indeed, there are proposals for a significant number, potentially 125, of additional night time rank spaces. We are in dialogue with Dublin City Council because it is a city council function to decide on the ranks. However, I believe there is enough effort being made to get the right solution to the ranks issue.

Concerns about transfers of licences were mentioned. Transfers of licences are one of the matters affecting the wheelchair accessible vehicles. If people have a choice between spending €10,000 and getting a wheelchair accessible vehicle or buying a second-hand licence and getting a cheaper vehicle, many will take the latter route. In accordance with the primary legislation, the Taxi Regulation Act 2013, transfers would cease as soon as the relevant section is commenced, which we expect to happen quite soon.

With regard to the streamlining of national car testing, NCT, and our taxi licensing, that has been raised with me. While we will end up with the same service provider doing our testing as does the NCT testing, like everything else it might not be that simple, but we will undertake a commitment to streamline it in so far as it is reasonable for us.

As regards vetting, that is carried out by the Garda Síochána. I know the Garda is conscious of the issue of information from outside the jurisdiction, but I cannot go any further than that.

On the issue of credit card charges and drivers to carry the cost of credit card charges, there is a fair amount of uncertainty at present as to what is allowable or not allowable on credit card charges and we wanted to bring clarity to that. There are people who charge significant fees on top of the fare for accepting payment by credit card. It appears to be unreasonable that a tourist coming into Dublin Airport takes one taxi and is charged one fee and no credit card charge while in another taxi the fee is in double digits, such as 10%, 11% or 15%. That has happened and we wish to address it. It was never our intention that the drivers would have to bear the cost. Our intention in drafting the regulations was to state that one could not charge anything extra for payment by credit or debit card and that we would follow that through by adjusting the fare structure to add a cent or half cent or whatever was necessary on the euro to compensate drivers, so they are not at a loss. Again, in consultation with the taxi advisory committee, whether that is the best model or whether another model where we should just put a cap on the fee or credit card charge has been the subject of a fair amount of discussion. Currently, the NTA is biased towards amending that regulation to simply propose a cap and state that 4% or 5% is the maximum that can be charged for credit card charges. We are confident that this would at least bring some control to it. However, the issue was never about trying to impose the charge on the drivers.

As regards the declaration of other employment and driving more than 11 hours, the rule about driving more than 11 hours is one of the consolidated regulations. It has existed for years at this stage. It is correct that it is very hard to prove that. Unless somebody honest volunteers that he or she has done it, it is very hard to prosecute. However, it is a regulation and we did not wish to lose it for the time being. On the declaration of other employment, perhaps we could do more on that front but I believe we have brought it a fair distance from where it was.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Thank you. Deputy Maloney is next and he will be followed by Deputy Ellis.

Eamonn Maloney (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I welcome Mr. Creegan and thank him for his presentation.

I have no intention of repeating the points raised by Deputy Dooley. In common with most Members of the Oireachtas, I would acknowledge the benefits of a taxi industry review. Some of it is good and some of it, as outlined, has not been entirely favourable. The principle behind it was much needed. Whether one is a consumer, taxi driver or legislator, there is no objection to that principle.

I wish to focus to the overall taxi industry. I favour the position held by full-time taxi drivers. I take the view that one of the curses of the taxi industry in the past has been its part-time element, a view which is sometimes unpopular with people judging by the mail that some of us have received. Some of the review's recommendations are good and were needed, such as those regarding working hours and I do not need to list them.

The two principal aims of the review were to make the industry better for the consumer which I agree with, and to make it a better industry for taxi drivers. However, it falls down in one area. The economy has changed so much and a lot of people invested in the taxi business during the Celtic tiger years when none of us walked anywhere, we could all afford taxis and taxi drivers made a few bob. At the same time the industry was saturated with a high volume of cars. The industry has completely changed because we are no longer in the same economic situation. One of the pitfalls of the review is that it does not focus and has not gone as far as it could have to protect and make a better life for the people who work full-time in the industry. First, we should take that matter into consideration whether it is Mr. Creegan in his role as director, or ourselves as legislators. Second, the forthcoming legislation should do as much as possible to protect and make life more bearable for anyone who engages in the industry on a full-time basis. Deputy Dooley outlined some of the frustrations experienced by full-time taxi drivers. He is right about them and I agree with him that we must examine these matters.

As I stated in my submission, I do not agree with prohibiting taxi drivers from advertising. I take the director's point about distractions but I can give him a list of distractions that are on the back of buses and other things that are more of a distraction to drivers than a neon sign on the back of a taxi but I shall not go there.

I am not quite convinced about the small vehicle wheelchair issue. The director cited the situation in the UK for such a vehicle and the fact that there is input from the local authorities in Britain regarding licences. My understanding of the matter - the director will correct me if I am wrong - is that it is not a free for all for anyone who wishes to buy a small vehicle because there is a quota. Perhaps that is not the right word to use. Not everybody can buy such a vehicle. We are making a mistake by opening up the sector and allowing everybody and anybody who has the financial resources to buy one of these licences here. It will be a mistake to do it that way. Perhaps the director is more familiar with the UK legislation. From my limited knowledge, the UK has a much better way of policing this new type of licence that may be introduced and protecting full-time taxi drivers who are engaged in the industry.

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

There has been a lot of debate around these issues, not so much as part of these regulations but as part of the taxi regulation review report a couple of years ago. The Deputy alluded to whether a quantitative limit could be put in place. He is correct that the authorities in some UK locations have found some ways of doing so. However, as part of the taxi regulation review report in this country it was decided that it was not going to be possible and I think that is correct. It would not be legally possible here to do that in the way that people might like. Let us leave that matter to one side as being incapable of being done.

A lot of the other things have been put in place to give some protections to the people who devote themselves to the overall business. Let us consider the decals on door signage. It might not be obvious on first glance but a decal makes a difference in terms of whether a part-time person wishes to use his or her vehicle and have it permanently branded. It means that his or her employer will be aware of it in a way that he or she was not aware of before now. There have been some benefits that may not be obvious at first glance. I accept that the scheme is far from perfect. I do not think that we will ever get perfection but a fair bit of work has been done.

With regard to advertising, neither the current position of being totally uncontrolled nor the position we advocated in draft regulations of full control are the right positions. We want the middle ground of having only a limited number of exclusions which would not affect many people. Most of the advertising that people have on their vehicles would be unaffected by the revised proposals that we are considering taking forward.

I shall repeat what I said earlier about the smaller wheelchair accessible vehicles. For us it is one of the biggest issues facing the industry. The provision cannot serve the needs of the mobility impaired. I am happy that we must keep a watch over the matter in order to make sure that we do not bring it to an incorrect position. The actions that we propose to take are needed and correct.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Creegan for his input. I have raised an awful lot of issues and I ask everyone to bear with me if I repeat them because they are issues that I am still not fully satisfied with.

I have always believed that single taxi drivers did not get proper representation on the taxi advisory group. I have argued the matter with the Minister and the National Transport Authority that the multiple taxi drivers had more of an input and that bit was missing.

The local area hackney licence is the second hackney licence that we hope to bring in. Local authorities will have an input and potential hackney drivers must undertake a specific test that comprises knowledge of the area and what it entails. I would like to hear more about the new scheme. It will impact on other hackneys and taxis in certain areas. I accept that the new scheme is very specific but I fear that its introduction will have an adverse affect.

With regard to the issues of pooling, its legality and insurance issues, the Minister has flagged the issue on a number of occasions. Is a driver acting outside of the remit of pooling if he or she picks up people while pooling? Perhaps people have to assemble at one spot before they can be picked up. I would like Mr. Creegan to elaborate on the matter.

I am still baffled about applications where an operator can type in the number of another vehicle and remove a name. That seems to me to be a huge security breach. The matter has been dismissed even though the authority knew there was a problem. It does not make sense that a name can be removed. I do not have the answer and I am not satisfied with the answer supplied that the problem is acceptable and we knew it was going to happen.

Will a grant be provided for the purchase of disabled vehicles? We know that there are three types of vehicles being considered by the authority, they are the same as the ones in the UK and the entrance is from the back.

Recently I learned of an issue with a family where they could not get down the path and had to go up the road, half a mile, to get onto the road and access a vehicle. How can we deal with entrances now being located at the back? I have been led to believe that the entrances will be at the back. I assume that money will be made available to provide ramps or something. Maybe it will come out of the money the NTA accumulates on an ongoing basis. The local authority will not have the resources, unless it is provided with resources, to dig paths for people in these situations. It will become very difficult. A makeshift system is not good enough.

The Minister referred to 600 people with criminal convictions in the industry. It was a bad remark and I do not know whether the NTA had any input. Making a remark like that without backing it up worries consumers and people who were going to use taxis. It was inappropriate.

With regard to money raised from licences, money was transferred to the NTA when this started off. Some of it has been used. What will we do? We know about the issue of the rank in O'Connell Street with the works that will take place there. It looks like there will be more spaces, as the NTA says, but that they will not be on O'Connell Street. We must have a proper, accessible situation in O'Connell Street. The Gresham Hotel rank has been there for years and is the most widely used. There must be a solution and we cannot have all other vehicles going up and down O'Connell Street as well as a place to get a taxi. People must go down a side street and they will not be prepared to do so. I know that from my experience. Perhaps the rank can be brought around the corner so that people can queue and taxis can come around the corner onto O'Connell Street. There is some sense in that idea but there must be some solution with local authorities. When works are completed, we still will not have access.

The licence period reduced from five years to one year. In one case, a taxi man had a car crash. The case has been settled and the man has received no money. He has waited over one year and has now been told that he will lose his licence. There is no mechanism to deal with it. It is absurd. I do not know the answer because I keep receiving the same stark answer that the person will lose his licence. Perhaps the witnesses can tell me how to deal with it.

The retrospective aspect of licences was raised earlier. Some licences were going to different cars to reactivate the licences. I would like to hear comments on this. An analysis was supposed to be done on the economic reality of making people aware of the cost to the industry. Has the analysis been done and is it available? Many people entering industry do not know that there have been additional costs and rules added. The analysis was supposed to be done and I am not sure whether it has been brought forward yet.

Are there additional enforcement officers? Will there be contracts for them and do we know who will avail of the contracts? Where will the enforcement officers come from?

A vetting Bill will come before the Houses and I assume we will need to lay down rules. I am not saying I agree with rules but in Spain drivers must be citizens. In other countries, there are different rules. We must have something more steady. We can check the backgrounds of EU nationals but there in other areas throughout the world we cannot check people's backgrounds for a variety of reasons. We must have clearer indicators on that point. I would like to hear the view of the witnesses on this.

Is it still the case that people have taxi plates just to use bus lanes and are not actively using the vehicle as a taxi? Are we examining such people and taking licences from them? In the past, criminals got taxi licences just to use bus lanes. I would like to hear some comment on this.

When someone flags down a taxi, the taxi will pull up but the driver may be told taxis cannot pull up in certain places, such as bus lanes. There is a possibility of prosecuting people but there must be some flexibility. There is talk of CCTV being used in evidence against people in these cases. This is very unfair to taxi people, who must drive around the city waiting to collect fares. We have the issue of people driving around and there must be some flexibility by not applying penalty points or fines in those situations.

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

The first thing the Deputy mentioned was single taxi drivers not getting appropriate representation on the taxi advisory committee. The membership of the advisory committee is outside the ambit of the NTA. The Minister appoints the membership so we have no role.

The Deputy had a number of questions about how the local area hackney works. It was one of the recommendations in the Government review. In rural areas, where people find it difficult to access services, we needed to devise a solution and the solution was a local area hackney. It tries to strike a balance between catering for people who genuinely do not have their transport needs met and not taking away the livelihoods of industry people trying to deliver the service in the area. It tries to strike a balance between the two. It is a hackney licence and, before it can be granted, the applicant needs two key elements. The first is the endorsement of a local not-for-profit group, a registered charity or a local business group endorsing the need for it. Step two, which is more important from our perspective, is that the local authority in the area must be involved by carrying out a simple assessment of the needs in the area and must confirm that transport demand is not capable of being met in other ways. That was brought in at the end of November. These are the key components. Costs are kept low so that cost is not an impediment. The Deputy also mentioned area knowledge but, because it is a local area of operation, there is no local area knowledge test. No area knowledge test is required because it is specific to a local area.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Whether taxis or hackneys, there must be local area knowledge.

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

The licence for this only allows people to drive a particular type of vehicle and to operate in a particular area only. The licence does not allow people to drive a taxi, a normal hackney or a limousine. It is purely to serve the needs of the local rural area. An area knowledge test does not apply and would not make sense. Someone coming from the area knows far more about it than any test or set of questions we could set. A test is not part of it.

With regard to car pooling or sharing, this is tied into the draft regulations. We have excluded from draft regulations the need for people involved in non-commercial car sharing to get a licence. There was a doubt about this.

The phrase in the previous Taxi Regulation Act was carrying somebody "for hire or reward", with reward being the key word. In those circumstances, one must potentially have both a driver's licence and a vehicle licence. Definitions of "for reward" are much wider than one might think at first glance. To avoid any problem over two people deciding to share journeys to work and somebody alleging they needed both a driver and a vehicle licence, we simply excluded them categorically. It is non-commercial car sharing only that is excluded from the licensing. In terms of insurance for that type of activity, my understanding is that if there is no reward involved, insurance companies have said they are fine with it because it is not a commercial service. They do not have an issue with private car sharing, as I understand it.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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What about picking up people? If someone drove from point A to point B and picked up several people along the way, how would that be viewed?

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

That is going further than car sharing.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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No, that is car sharing. A person could be picking up two or three people along the route.

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

My understanding, on foot of correspondence with insurance companies, is that if it is genuinely not for reward, non-commercial and is literally what is says on the tin, that is, car sharing between people who probably know each other, then they deem that to be covered by normal domestic and social use policies. However, if it crosses the line and takes on a commercial or reward aspect, then special insurance is required.

In terms of the driver check application to which the Deputy referred, any taxi driver can potentially be driving any licensed taxi vehicle. Therefore, we could not devise a system that said that the taxi driver, Mr. Smith, can only be connected to vehicle X. Potentially, he could be driving any vehicle. We have had to devise a system whereby the driver tells us which vehicle he or she is driving. In the main, we have had no problems on this front. If a problem arises, we have the information available to understand categorically what has occurred and we would not prosecute people for a problem that was not of their making.

On the question of grants for wheelchair accessible vehicles, it is our intention later this year - if these regulations are adopted - to try to put some kind of grant scheme in place to increase the number of wheelchair accessible vehicles in the fleet. That is important to us and we acknowledge that we need to do something on that front. On the Minister's remarks regarding those with criminal convictions working in the taxi industry, I did not hear those remarks first-hand and would prefer not to comment for that reason. I do not know the ins and outs of it.

We understand the concerns about the rank on O'Connell Street. We have had a lot of discussions with Dublin City Council and the taxi representative groups about the rank. It is a very busy street in the context of the use of kerbside space but I know that Dublin City Council has developed a number of different options. It is envisaged that a preferred option will be identified in the coming months and we will then determine if that meets everyone's needs.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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The issue is that the rank itself remains on O'Connell Street and is not moved to one of the side streets. That may mean that drivers queue along the side streets and come onto the rank as spaces become available. That might alleviate the problem.

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

I understand that one of the options is that drivers would queue on a feeder rank on Cathal Brugha Street for the main rank around the corner on O'Connell Street. I do not know if that would give rise to problems but it is one of the options that is being actively explored at the moment. It will take a little bit more time before a preferred solution emerges but everyone is conscious of the sensitivity of that particular location.

The Deputy also referred to people activating multiple licences using the same vehicle. We are conscious that this occurs in a number of places but it is in compliance with the regulations. While it might not seem satisfactory at first glance, it is actually compliant with the regulations. However, if a vehicle is moved from one licence to another, the licence that was taken off the vehicle is then on a time limit. It must be attached to another vehicle within one year or it will expire. We will see what happens over the next while in that regard but we are aware it is going on in a very small way. When we looked closely at it, however, we could not say there was anything technically wrong with it.

I referred earlier to the analysis of costs for people entering the industry and it is our intention to conduct a fare review later this year. As part of that review, we intend to gather and publish information on driver income or potential income. The issue of enforcement officers was raised and from our point of view, because the taxi industry is a 24-hour, seven days a week industry, across every county in the country, with only eight enforcement officers we cannot police the whole country. We very much rely on An Garda Síochána which has the capability of covering the country, even though we totally understand that it has numerous other priorities at any given time. We are going to supplement our enforcement team in 2014 with the engagement of an external service provider. That service provider will appoint 15 personnel, all of whom are ex-gardaí, and once the Taxi Regulation Act is commenced and we are able to authorise them in the way we want to, they will supplement our own eight enforcement officers. We will do our best to increase enforcement throughout the country using that additional resource.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I am not clear how that will work. Mr. Creegan has used the term "external service provider", so these people will not be enforcement officers of the NTA. They will be working alongside the eight enforcement officers already on the ground. Is that what Mr. Creegan is saying?

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

We tendered for a contract to provide personnel to us to perform this role. A company called Applus, which also runs the NCT, won the contract. We have agreed with Applus that it will provide 15 personnel to perform enforcement functions throughout the country. All 15 are ex-gardaí but until the Taxi Regulation Act is commenced, we cannot give them the same powers as those of our own authorised officers. As soon as the legislation is commenced, we intend to give them equivalent powers and they will be able to provide the same service as that provided by our own enforcement officers at present. We will have 23 enforcement officers in place during 2015.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is that to deal with unlicensed taxi and hackney drivers?

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

That is absolutely a key part but it is also to deal with the enforcement of all the other parts of the regulations.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Do unlicensed taxi and hackney operators have to be caught in the act of taking a fare in order to be prosecuted?

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

Yes. It is more difficult than we would like it to be. Effectively, what we have to do is engage the driver, take the journey, pay the fare and then we can prove in court that a journey was taken for hire or reward. As one can imagine, because we have only eight compliance officers, they have become pretty well-known around the country so it is very hard to do that. We get a lot of co-operation from the Garda which gives us people from other counties to take the journey, but it is more difficult than we would like it to be.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is there a need for a change in legislation?

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

I am not sure and we do not have a change to propose. It is not that we have a solution and are seeking legislative change. We do not have one but I am pointing out that it is a difficult exercise to catch an unlicensed operator and prove it in court. It is relatively easy to catch them but very difficult to secure a subsequent prosecution, which is what it is all about.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Mr. Creegan to deal with the vetting of drivers.

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

The vetting is done by An Garda Síochána and we have no involvement in it. I know it is very difficult for the Garda to get information from certain jurisdictions, but beyond that, I would not feel competent to deal with the Deputy's question.

On taxis being used by people to access the bus lanes, I have no evidence of that happening. I am aware some taxis were bought in the past for that purpose, but at that time, all one needed to do was to put on a roof sign and one could take it off again at the end of one's journey. Now, however, the fact that taxis must have permanent signs on the front doors has diminished the attractiveness of that proposition.

Pulling up in unsuitable places and the use of CCTV has been mentioned. There is an issue with a lack of rank space in various places and drivers are queueing in inappropriate places to try to gain fares.

I understand the reason for the argument that those who pull up should not be pursued and prosecuted, however, the drivers who have queued legitimately are just as upset that we are not dealing with the issue. We get as many complaints about not dealing with the issue as we get about dealing with it. We try to be pragmatic. We understand the difficulties and are not terribly draconian. Drivers who have been in a queue for between 30 minutes and an hour are upset when somebody who gets ahead out of turn gets the fare.

Ann Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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Has Mr. Creegan evidence of the uptake of the rural hackney licence? In my view we may have been able to kill two birds with one stone if we had offered a dual licence, the small public service vehicle licence with the rural hackney licence? Will Mr. Creegan say whether these licences are compatible? If I were living in a rural area and applying for the hackney licence and thought it would be beneficial to get a licence for a small public service vehicle, I think I would do so if it were incentivised. The only way we can incentivise the take up of this licence is by offering a grant. People in wheelchairs are more affected if they live in a rural area that has no taxi or hackney licensed vehicles. If we were to consider a combination of the three licences, that might incentivise a greater take up. Mr. Creegan may have evidence to contradict that point. Some people in wheelchairs have no way to leave their homes. I think the rural hackney licence is a very good idea, but I have no idea how many will take it up.

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

One of the key themes in the introduction of a rural area hackney licence was to keep the costs low. My perception is that if a service were commercially viable in the area, it would already be offered. Our assumption is that a person who uses his or her own vehicle operates on a part-time basis and provides the service locally. In the absence of any other service in the area, that seems the right thing. If we were to demand that the licence holder must have a wheelchair accessible vehicle, which is much more expensive, that might create a difficulty. The service may evolve in the future but we would not want to do this at the start.

On the question of servicing wheelchair needs in rural areas, we will consider whether we need to be very targeted when we decide our grant scheme for wheelchair vehicles. When one looks at the provision of wheelchair accessible vehicles on a county basis, there are certain areas of the country which have fewer wheelchair accessible vehicles than other areas and I think we need to be clever about how we target this to try to get appropriate solutions.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Chairman, I apologise for my absence as I was at another meeting, but I have strong views on this issue.

We do not have an adequate hackney service in rural areas. The reason is that those who have a hackney licence already would not have a hope of passing the knowledge test, which is now a condition of the licence. I would expect the Chairman to have a good knowledge of County Mayo but I can guarantee if he had to sit the test for a hackney licence in County Mayo, he would not pass it. I have tabled parliamentary questions on this test umpteen times. If one has the misfortune to be from one of the larger counties, one is more likely to fail the test. Rather than examining the reason that people are failing the test - those who fail are not in any way out of touch with the local community - the test is out of touch with the service that people want. I have cited the following example many times but nobody appears to be listening. Shannon Banks is in County Clare but is near Corbally, County Limerick, and a hackney driver would need to know where Patrick Street, Roches Street and the roads out as far as Patrick's Well down to Castletroy are in County Limerick to serve the needs of his customers. However, a person from Shannon Banks must pass a knowledge test on Doolin, Cooraclare, Ballynakelly and Loop Head, areas in County Clare one will never service. The knowledge test is not based on the functional area but on the geographical area. I have seen a knowledge test and the questions that a person from west Limerick would be expected to answer, for example, " On what street in Doon is the post office?". Doon is approximately 50 miles from Abbeyfeale. Anybody who sits into a hackney car in Abbeyfeale and asks to be taken to Doon is a delight for the driver and by the time he gets to Doon he will know where the post office is located.

I think it is absolutely bonkers that a hackney driver on the Mayo side of Ballaghaderreen would be expected to know about places in Blacksod and Bellmullet and expected to be able to deliver the person there. I think nobody can pass those tests. I agree with the concept of a knowledge test, but a person from Abbeyfeale should know about the streets in Knocknagoshel, County Kerry, as well as Finuge and Ballylongford in County Kerry, but these places do not come up in the test at all. This is the area in which he or she will work.

I think the knowledge test is designed to make people fail. Unfairness is built into the design of the test. Nobody will convince me otherwise. It appears that the test is designed to limit the number of licences because nobody knows if those who have a licence will pass the test but very few others will pass that test.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy O'Donovan has raised this issue consistently.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Nothing has changed, except more people have continued to fail, Chairman.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What is needed is common sense. Perhaps we will see some development.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Should a person in Abbeyfeale, County Limerick, who is applying for a hackney licence be expected to know the geography of Knocknagoshel? That is a straightforward question.

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

I do not know where Knocknagoshel is. I cannot answer that question.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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It is about three miles from Abbeyfeale. The person applying for the hackney licence is not expected to know that but he is expected to know about Kilbeheny and Doon which are more than 60 miles from Abbeyfeale. That is crazy.

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

I know I cannot give an answer that will satisfy the Deputy.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Creegan can satisfy me if he will agree to revise the geographical element of the knowledge test. I agree there should be a knowledge test, but it should be based on the functional area of the licence holder not an aspirational area. Would the witnesses not admit that those from large counties, like Cork, such as a person from Ballydehob would be expected to know about places that are half way to Dublin, such as Mitchelstown?

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

The information is available digitally. I am not going to win this argument. We have looked at this issue previously. The Deputy thinks the current 26 geographic areas should be subdivided into a myriad of local areas. I think that scenario is unworkable. Enforcement would be unworkable. Every driver with a hackney licence is entitled to drive not just a hackney car but a taxi and a limousine. If one gets a licence in County Limerick, one is entitled to drive a taxi across all of County Limerick. One puts an "L" on the roof sign and one is entitled to ply for hire. I could not contemplate how one would could limit a driver to a radius of his or her local area.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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The ordnance survey maps break the country down into grids. It is very easy to apply the knowledge test to the area of the grid which relates to the area in which the person has applied for the licence. If a person picks up a fare in Limerick and is being asked to drive to Donegal, good luck to him because he will do well but by the same token would Mr. Creegan accept that the majority of the work will be inside a defined functional area?

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

Yes, I agree with the Deputy that most people will operate in certain areas. Dublin is another example. How would one sub-divide Dublin and then expect our division of the National Transport Authority to enforce the rules? It is difficult to enforce the rule that taxi drivers should only be standing in rank in the county in which they are authorised to stand in.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Creegan is basically saying there are no taxi drivers in Dublin at present using satellite navigation because they all know Dublin.

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

I did not say that. I am saying that the rule is that people need to pass the area knowledge test in respect of the area in which they operate.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Yes, the area in which they operate.

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

The area in which they operate has been defined on a county basis and it has been that way for many years.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Creegan accept that people in larger counties are at a disadvantage?

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

Funnily enough, I do not. I think the people who are at the greatest disadvantage are those in the urban areas.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Does a person making an application in Carlow, which is the second smallest county, or Louth have the same advantage as a person in west Mayo?

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

That is not what I said. I said the test for the urban areas is probably the hardest to pass. The test for Dublin is probably the hardest one to pass, because Dublin is a massively built up area and with a lot of information around the place it is the hardest to pass.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Creegan accept that the reason the rural licences are being introduced is that currently there is a dearth of rural hackneys?

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

Hackneys are in decline. There were 5,000 hackneys in the country five years ago, there are 2,500 now. That has nothing to do with the drivers.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr Creegan accept there is any correlation between the decline in the number of hackeys and the knowledge test failure rate?

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

No.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Creegan does not accept that.

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

I do not accept that.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Well, for me that is the kernel of the issue.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is a problem. Mr. Creegan has put forward reasons it would be difficult to address the issue. However, an inventive way of solving the problem needs to be found, maybe not to solve it completely, but as outlined by Deputy Patrick O'Donovan it is a major issue in large counties for people who are trying to pass that test.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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If there is not a border area in a county one is totally goosed. A person from Athlone will be expected to know about places in Kilbeggan and Mullingar. I accept that County Westmeath is a smaller county but if one is from Ballyshannon in County Donegal, one will be expected to know Malin Head which is approximately 80 miles from Ballyshannon.

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

I am happy to take another look at the issue. I do not want to over-promise that there will be a solution.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No. Currently nothing has been promised.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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All I want is that an examination be carried out and that people be tested on the area they service. Nobody in Abbeyfeale would have an issue with being examined on the geography of Duagh, Knocknagoshel, Finuge, Lixnaw or Ballylongford but they would have a major grievance being asked about places such as Oola, Pallasgreen, Kilbehenny and Mitchelstown which are nowhere near their functional area and in which they will never serve. They will never pick up a fare in the Square in Abbeyfeale or be telephoned and asked to take a person to Doon. Nobody will do that.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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For instance, in the way the test would be devised, perhaps some weighting could be given in favour of the functional area from which the person applies. There are many ways this issue could be dealt with.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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If there is a willingness to address the issue whereby the person would be examined on the area in which he or she serves, I do not think there would be a problem. I do not think these regulations are needed and I certainly do not think this new fandangle licence will be needed.

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

We shall certainly look at the issue again.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Will Mr. Creegan come back to the committee when the issue has been looked at? This issue is not going to go away. Every time the word "taxi" arises here I will raise the issue.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has done so on many occasions and I support him on it. Perhaps Mr. Creegan would come back following the deliberations on it.

Mr. Hugh Creegan:

Yes. If the committee would give us a few weeks, we will come back.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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We have had a few years, I have no problem with a few weeks.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Within reason, a month or two or whatever, but that there should be a new way of dealing with the issue. We will certainly have a look at it.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Are we happy enough? I thank Mr. Creegan for his engagement and the way he has responded and clarified many issues for members. There will be great interest in the regulations when they are drawn up and finalised.