Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I thank everybody for their submissions. We are not being told anything that is not already in the public domain but the witnesses made their presentations well and succinctly. I note what Mr. Whelan said about defined contribution schemes, and I agree with him. I have long suspected that the defined contribution schemes are not a panacea. I also agree with him that the way liabilities are calculated in defined benefit pension schemes is insane. If Mr. Whelan's organisation has alternative models I would be like to see them.

The European White Paper refers to complementary systems, etc., to support the State system and that if we have to have complementary systems, the need for tax incentives and so on but what we appear to have here are disincentives. One of the gentlemen from the broker association made an interesting point about the actual cost of the tax relief on pensions but as we know the tax relief on savings for pension purposes has been severely curtailed. In addition, we have a direct levy on pension funds, which is transferred directly to the members. It is akin to what the Government of Cyprus did in taking money directly from people's savings.

A number of interesting suggestions are contained in the submission, including constitutional protection, a long-term plan, a pensions Minister, etc. All of us would welcome those. I would appreciate it if Mr. McLoughlin would elaborate on his figures on the amount of exposure to which we are potentially liable. I believe he referred to €329 billion or-----