Mr. Paul O'Toole:

First, Deputy McConalogue asked about potential duplication in FÁS and the VECs, how we would deal with that and what we are finding. He touched on employers and where this strategy is going in dealing with that. I hope I have captured that correctly.

There is quite a lot of provision. If one takes everything together, approximately 250,000 citizens access further education and training to some degree. That is a combination of full-time and part-time programmes across a wide range of provision. It has grown up organically. It responded locally, depending on accidents of history, location of facilities or whatever. The challenge to eliminate wasteful duplication where that exists is to get a fix on what is there, and that is difficult. Our first task is to develop what we are calling a services plan for 2014. All of Mr. Moriarty's members, various voluntary groups and the old FÁS network are submitting their plans for 2014 and that will give us for the first time a line of sight on everything that is out there. It is a start. Of itself it will not fix matters, but we will have a complete picture and will use that as a building block for the future.

On how employer engagement works, it operates in a variety of ways. Obviously, the Department of Social Protection has a employer engagement programme and that is of relevance to us because they are at the front line dealing with the unemployed. Over time, employers engage. They contribute to the development of standards, with Dr. Walsh and his organisation. FÁS would have a long-standing tradition of engagement with employers, particularly those that are committed to the apprenticeship model. Obviously, there is an opportunity to expand that and to improve that level of engagement in the future because the way forward is for employers to contribute to specifying the skills that are required for the jobs that they can provide. It is uneven at present and we will seek to improve that in the future.

In terms of the building blocks of the strategy, there is the immediate imperative to respond to the horror of long-term unemployment, the challenge of youth unemployment and a variety of other immediate issues. We need to tackle those and ensure business continuity. However, we will set milestones for the progressive re-engineering of the sector over five years and we will publish those in line with our strategy.

Deputy O'Brien also touched on the five-year strategy. He asked about the place of community education in this. We would be acutely conscious of an anxiety in the sector as to whether, with all of this change, we will wipe out tried and tested programmes. In that regard I would make a number of points. We want to walk before we can run. We know what is out there. One of the challenges, because of the diversity of provision, is being able to properly evaluate, monitor and demonstrate the strengths of that diversity. When one looks at it from the point of view of investment, sometimes it is difficult to see the returns that are being made. We need to build a base of information that is objective and measurable and will inform better decision-making, whether it is for the community side, the labour market element or whatever.

Deputy O'Brien made an important point about social inclusion as a driver and, perhaps, more economically driven labour market programmes. Sometimes these are seen as two separate matters. Most who have looked at this a little closer, and many who are more expert than I, would say it is a continuum. The purpose of any programme, even if its primary driver is social inclusion, is ultimately to help learners progress and improve employability. These are not polarised concepts, but perhaps the linkages and the progression for somebody who is at extreme disadvantage, and how that route is managed into a better life for that person, needs to be better defined, and, hopefully, we will collaborate to do that. Maybe that would deal a little better with Deputy O'Brien's point about recognising the pace of learning. We would say it is not a case of one size fits all, and we should not seek for it to be so.

For a sector that is undervalued, not fully understood and diverse, we need to have better information to persuade people of its strength. We need to make parents, young people, adult learners and others understand its value. Enshrined in the legislation is the idea of promoting the value and integrity of further education and training. It is an objective of SOLAS and its partners.

Deputy Collins raised employers' consultation and how the process works. The first point of contact of an unemployed person is the Intreo offices. Based on the previous systems, the employment service officers will have on their desks and computer screens access to all the training provisions. We have a new development project called Programme and Learning Support Systems. It is being led by my colleague Dr. Mehlman, among others, and its purpose is to connect the dots so that we will, in the first instance, be able to have a repository for further education and training provision. We will be able to make that available in real time in the Intreo offices so one will be to see what is available and so the officers will be able to guide and inform the client in a much better fashion. We will capture information in a more systematic way in respect of all learners. This is a development project and it will take a little time. That is how we will connect the dots on how people gain access to and learn about programmes.

I was asked about apprenticeships and other programmes and provisions involving private courses. Certainly, within the funding we have that is available through SOLAS, which is all I can speak on, our primary focus is on helping unemployed people. Unemployed people who qualify for a programme and are referred through the Intreo system can participate for free. We do not have private grants at present.

I was asked about the charging of fees. This is a policy matter for the Department of Education and Skills. I cannot speak on the policy but I can say that SOLAS and the ETBs contribute to the apprentices' wages while they are doing the off-the-job training, as did FÁS. That process will certainly continue for the time being. The capitation fee is outside our remit in that regard.