John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Are the minutes of the last meeting, of 13 February 2014, agreed? Agreed. Are there any matters arising from the minutes? Further to our discussion at last week's meeting, a meeting has been scheduled with the CEO of Rehab Group, together with the CEO of SOLAS and the Accounting Officers at the Department of Justice and Equality and the HSE for Thursday, 27 February 2014. We will have to reschedule the meeting with the Department of Health and the work programme that was initially scheduled for that day. Next Thursday will be devoted to a hearing with Rehab and the Accounting Officers. Is that agreed?

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Do we know who we are asking in from Rehab?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We have asked the CEO and I presume the CEO will nominate her group, because there will be people there with certain responsibilities.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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The Vice Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children, Deputy Conway, was looking for questions to be answered by the remuneration committee. Could we ask the remuneration committee to come in? It is difficult to know who they are. Could we also ask the former chief executive, who was there for 25 years?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Do any other members have suggestions?

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Does that mean the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade is not coming in next Thursday?

Clerk to the Committee:

They are coming in the week after. The HSE was due in next week.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The HSE was to come in next week but because the Rehab meeting has been scheduled for that date we will incorporate it into the HSE meeting and we will bring in the Accounting Officers. Deputy Ross is asking to ensure others come in with the Rehab group.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Is this an appropriate time to ask when the Central Remedial Clinic will return?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Let us deal with this now. We are focusing on the €83 million it would receive each year, and provided we keep that as our focus that is fine. Whether the remuneration committee should be asked in is another issue because it sets the salaries for the group and therefore it would not be directly responsible for the €83 million.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Yes, but it would have set the salary that is so controversial, so I would have thought they were the people who would have to answer the question. They could surely enlighten us on how this salary is worked out. There is a body of opinion that says the chief executive got this salary, she accepted it, and that is fine. How is it set? The remuneration committee sets it; is that not right?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, based on a report.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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We should ask them how this was worked out.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How do the members feel about that?

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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What are we doing now?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is proposed to ensure the remuneration committee will attend to give an overview of how the salaries are set.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Where are we with Rehab for next week?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Its representatives have been invited. They are coming in.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Have they accepted the invitation?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, and Deputy Ross is suggesting that we ask Rehab to bring its remuneration committee to discuss how salaries are struck.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Are we presuming Ms Angela Kerins is not going to answer that question? What is the point?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We suggest that she be informed, with regard to next week's meeting, that questions about remuneration will be asked and that she should bring information on that and perhaps bring the remuneration committee.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There are reports.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Will we ask the remuneration committee in?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We will inform the CEO of the range of questions, as the clerk would normally do with anyone coming before us, give her the information from today's meeting and inform her that the remuneration committee will have questions to answer and suggest that they might be here.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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We will ask them to be here, then, and the former chief executive. We should invite the former chief executive, because he was there for 25 years, but we should also ask the chairman to come in.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The chairman will probably be coming in but from today's meeting we can pass on the request from the Committee of Public Accounts to the CEO and express the views of the members.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Reports have been commissioned and appear to have been completed and we should be given the basis of those reports in terms of the CEO's salary.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Kerins is not a public servant, so if we want general information to establish the salary structure generally and how it was arrived at, I would think that was fine. It is in that context that we would ask for the report and the attendance of the previous CEO and the remuneration committee. I do not know about the report. There may be commercially sensitive information in it. We are not after that; we are after the general information.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General does not audit Rehab. Do we have its last audited accounts? When were they done?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We have the report from the HSE or the other Accounting Officers.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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To give us a picture of the organisation, are we-----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Accounting Officers for SOLAS, the HSE and the Department of Justice and Equality will give us the audit information on the moneys received by Rehab. They will give the background and information on their findings. From that we will conduct our hearing.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I feel it is very strange that we invite an organisation here without having its annual report before us. Aside from the bit the HSE and SOLAS are doing, is such information in the public domain?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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To be helpful, Rehab's annual reports are up on their website. They are freely available.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I was going to come to that. Is Deputy Fleming finished?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The accounts are on the website and they are available to members, who should examine them as part of their briefing for next week. We will notify Rehab of what is required for next week arising from this discussion.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I would like to know when the CRC is coming back and if St. Michael's House could be invited in, because there are issues with regard to business cases it has made for having pay rates for some of its staff above the odds.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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I agree with Deputy Dowds. They should come in.

Clerk to the Committee:

When we examine the correspondence today we can see there is a process under way whereby a number of organisations have made business cases. To be fair to those organisations, we should see what the outcomes are with the HSE and maybe we should ask the HSE first. We were primarily focused on outliers, bodies that were non-compliant after a certain date. They may well be compliant if their business cases are accepted.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The HSE is coming in next week. We can request in the meantime a progress report on compliance and non-compliance. It has been stated in the newspapers that for the most part everybody has been, is or will be compliant, apart from one organisation. It would be no harm to tell the HSE people that this may arise, because we have dealt with this again and again.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Did we not receive correspondence earlier this morning from St. Vincent's Hospital and the HSE on this? Will it not come up as an item of correspondence?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Is there a date for the CRC?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The administrator has to come back to us with the report. We were told the report would be available to us at the end of March. It will go to the HSE first and then the HSE, the CRC board and others will be invited to appear before the committee. We have agreed on that. It will be at the end of March or the beginning of April.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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When is the HSE due to report to us in respect of St. Michael's House?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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As the Clerk said, there is an ongoing process with the HSE and we can check next week what the position is with that. We can then indicate to St. Michael's House and to the HSE that we wish to have its representatives appear before the committee.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I have two concerns. One is top-up salaries and the other relates to the ancillary businesses it has. While I am quite prepared to wait for the HSE, I still want representatives of St. Michael's House to appear before us after that.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The committee has agreed that will be the case.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Presumably, that will not happen for three or four months.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No, I expect it to be in April as well.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Thank you.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No. 3A.1 is correspondence received on 12 February 2014 from Mr. Ray Mitchell, HSE. It is a follow-up to issues raised at the committee meeting of 16 January 2014. It is to be noted and published.

No. 3A.2 is correspondence received on 13 February 2014 from Mr. Brian Conlan, former CEO of the CRC, with regard to a correction to the record of the Committee of Public Accounts meeting of 16 January 2014. It is to be noted and published. This matter will be dealt with when we have our next meeting on the CRC, which is likely to take place in April.

Nos. 3A.3 is correspondence received on 14 February 2014 from Mr. Ray Mitchell, HSE, about an update on section 38 agencies. This is to be noted and published. We will hear from the HSE at next week’s meeting about what action is being taken to bring section 38 bodies into line and we will have to review our position in respect of those that are not compliant. It is likely that all non-compliant bodies will be asked to appear before the committee after Easter, or before Easter if we can manage the work programme that way. I refer also to No. 3A.7, which is an exchange of correspondence between Professor Noel Whelan and Mr. Tony O’Brien of the HSE regarding the compliance issue. In these letters there is a new commitment that St. Vincent's hospital will be fully compliant at 31 March 2014.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I am willing to wait for the process to unfold and I welcome the belated willingness of St. Vincent's to be compliant by 31 March. However, as I said to you previously, we have had a number of meetings with the HSE in which we have been concerned about public pay policy but we have also been concerned about the protection of taxpayers' money within certain section 38 agencies. While this exercise being undertaken by the HSE is worthy, it is only concerned with public sector pay. Taking St. Vincent's as an example, when its representatives appeared before this committee, serious concerns were expressed about their complete and utter disregard for the consultants' contract and the fact that the public hospital is losing significant sums of money. I and other members have received correspondence from doctors, consultants, patients and nurses outlining the situation. To give one brief example, a doctor admitted a private patient to St. Vincent's Private Hospital, and then transferred the patient to the public hospital. The patient had an implantable pain management device inserted. The patient did not pay the private fees into the public system, and the public system was deprived of the money. A patient, whom I will not name, had an implantable device inserted costing thousands of euro. She was a private patient at a private hospital, but she was transferred to the public hospital to have the surgery. Basically, no bill was paid to the public hospital for a device costing more than €20,000. There is also the fact that St. Vincent's still has not rectified the situation whereby it has the same corporate governance crossover of directorships as the CRC had in respect of the Friends and Supporters of the CRC fund-raising group. The four directors on the St. Vincent's Foundation are all directors on the St. Vincent's board. I am happy to wait for the process to be completed, but that is one example in St. Vincent's.

We have discussed the National Maternity Hospital with Mr. Tony O'Brien, the director general. We read again in today's newspapers that there is a serious issue there. There is an allegation that a clinic, of which some members of senior management of the National Maternity Hospital are directors, is being given preferential treatment by the National Maternity Hospital, again at a potential cost to the taxpayer.

The remit of this committee is to ensure the public funds going into these institutions are safeguarded. It is all well and good for the HSE to go through this process, but it only relates to one aspect of what we have been discussing for months. I realise the HSE and Rehab representatives will appear before the committee next week, but perhaps some time could be set aside to discuss these other issues. It is not just a case of the CEO earning the right salary now so we can tick that box and say the job is done. There are much more serious corporate governance issues here that are rotten in some cases. I would hate to think that the HSE would consider the process to be finished because the CEO's salary is correct. There is massive loss of taxpayers' money.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Let us put this in context. Next week, the representatives of Rehab will appear before the committee. We have already decided to invite the previous CEO and the remuneration committee to get the other information that is required by the committee. Deputy O'Donnell raised the issue of the report and so forth, and attention has been drawn to the accounts. That will take us the full day next Thursday, probably morning and afternoon, because there will be three Accounting Officers before the committee as well.

The issues you raise, Deputy Harris, are so serious that they require another exchange with representatives of St. Vincent's, the National Maternity Hospital and the HSE. That can be done on another day. While we might get an update next week, the two issues are such that, linked with the matter of St. Michael's House raised by Deputy Dowds, they require three separate sittings. That might require the committee to sit on both Tuesday and Thursday of some weeks, but we will have to do that if you wish to go into that detail. I believe we should and I support the case you are making. With that in mind, we will have to adjust our work programme to ensure the representatives of the three bodies mentioned by you and Deputy Dowds are facilitated in appearing before the committee. That deals with the issue. I do not wish to complicate next Thursday with many other issues being brought before the HSE when we are due to deal with something specific. If the Deputy agrees with that, we will proceed on that basis and include it in the work programme.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I do. Thank you.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No. 3A.4 is correspondence received on 18 February 2014 from Mr. Noel Whelan, chairman of the board of directors of St. Vincent's Healthcare Group, and is a reply regarding anonymous correspondence. It is to be noted and published. No. 3A.5 is correspondence received on 18 February 2014 from Mr. Noel Whelan, chairman of the board of directors of St. Vincent's Healthcare Group, and is a follow-up to the Committee of Public Accounts meeting of 16 January 2014. It is to be noted and published.

No. 3A.6 is correspondence received on 18 February 2014 from Mr. Martin Whelan, National Asset Management Agency, and is a follow-up to the Committee of Public Accounts meeting of 20 December 2013. It is to be noted and published.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Can I ask the Clerk to organise our next sub-committee meeting on NAMA for the beginning of March if possible? Could the Comptroller and Auditor General give us a quick update on preparations for the tri-annual report, the first one under the legislation?

With regard to this correspondence, after NAMA informed us that it had done a board evaluation report again this year, we requested information on that evaluation and NAMA gave us a summary of it. The summary was good, but we wrote to NAMA again requesting further details because in that correspondence regarding the summary, which we received on 22 January, it talked about very high satisfaction rates. The rates for "satisfied" and "very satisfied" add up to 95%, which is similar to the previous year. I do not know if it is a good or bad thing that it would be so similar and so high, but it also referred to some feedback that was not positive and that would potentially require attention, such as the desirability of continuing to have a mix of expertise and skills on the board, the strategic balance, Government information issues with regard to the board and a number of the issues that have arisen when we discuss NAMA ourselves and also in correspondence that we get from the public about concerns with regard to NAMA. When the report was presented to the board, it was anonymous, so one could not identify an individual person's comments to protect them and to protect the integrity of the process. The correspondence we received from NAMA says we cannot have any further details on that evaluation because it is worried about confidentiality and process issues.

I will be guided by the committee, but this is an important piece of work carried out by NAMA to review itself. I would like to have a little more detail, given the concerns raised by members of the board about the board and the future direction of the agency.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I can only really comment regarding the evaluation report, which is ongoing. We sent a draft of the report to NAMA and to the Department of Finance and we have received comments from them.

The comments are being taken into account in a revision of the report and it will reissue to them for a final comment before publication. I am expecting the report back to me early next week and hopefully it will issue to NAMA and to the Department of Finance next week or the week after. By the end of March I would hope to have the report finalised.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I was going to suggest that we meet at the sub-committee next Wednesday. We should give a little time to the clerk so that he can put some information together. Does Wednesday week suit? We can start the process from there, agree on what needs to be done and move it forward.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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I have a question on the tri-annual report by the Comptroller and Auditor General. Has he had a chance to look at those board evaluations and has it been in detail?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I have not looked at the board evaluations.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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In the correspondence that we received on 22 January it stated that the Comptroller and Auditor General would look at them.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I think that would be part of the normal annual audit.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Is it correct that we would not be able to see, for example, the 2013 evaluation until some time next year? The Comptroller and Auditor General would not be looking at it until some time next year when the accounts for 2013 were-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

We would be looking at it now.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Are you looking at it now?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes. It is part of the review of corporate governance within NAMA. There would be a review of that.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Will that be contained in the tri-annual report in terms of the evaluation after 2013?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

No; they are two separate exercises. Any issue that arises in relation to corporate governance would be a matter that we would consider in the context of the audit of 2013. We would expect to have the audit of 2013 finished in April. If there were matters arising from that review that we felt we wanted to draw attention to, we would draw attention to them in the certificate.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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I do not know whether the committee wants to write to NAMA to push this point and seek more details on the actual evaluation. In terms of the presentation that was given to the board, I do not know if we want to push that or wait until April, when the Comptroller and Auditor General has had a chance to look at it himself.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We should wait until the Comptroller and Auditor General has looked at it. That would be my immediate reaction.

We suggested Wednesday week for our meeting. NAMA has made it clear to us on a number of occasions that we are welcome to go over to its office to hear a general briefing. We should take up its offer because the extent of the work is such that we had better cover every single aspect of NAMA's work. We are going to have to engage with it on a much more frequent basis. The meeting on Wednesday week will be a briefing meeting and the clerk will do some work on it for us. Prior to that, on a day that suits members, we will go and meet NAMA at its offices and get a general picture of what is going on. Is that agreed?

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Agreed.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I shall ask the clerk to make the arrangements.

No. 3A.7 is correspondence received on 20 February 2014 from the HSE regarding correspondence between Professor Noel Whelan and Mr. Tony O'Brien about public sector pay compliance. It is to be noted and published. The matter has been dealt with already.

The HSE is going to receive, or has received, 88 business cases from 27 agencies. Is it possible to get a copy of some of those business cases? That would help us to understand what case is being made and how a case is made, and it may resolve these problems. Is there a questionnaire or set piece that each agency must fill out? What details are required for a business case? Can we have general examples? They will help us understand what the HSE examines.

Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Can we find out the HSE's marking system?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. How does it evaluate the business cases? I think that was what Deputy Connaughton asked.

Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If we could get that information it would help us to understand how the HSE arrives at its decisions. It will allow us to have a general knowledge of the process.

No. 3B is individual correspondence. The first piece of correspondence is from William Treacy re appearance before the committee. It is to be noted.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a date for attendance by Horse Racing Ireland? Where are we on that issue?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is down the track a small bit with regard to the amount of work that has been undertaken. I will ask the Clerk to check and see when they are available. Then we will factor them into our-----

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Commence the process of setting a date.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No. 3B.2 is correspondence dated 3 February 2014 from Hayes Solicitors, a reply to Paul Kiely regarding issues raised with the Mater Hospital. It is to be noted and published. We will return to the issue when the CRC special report is available to us.

The next item is correspondence dated 7 February 2014 from Mr. Tom Moran, Secretary General at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine regarding issues raised by Councillor Thomas Welby. It is to be noted and a copy forwarded to Councillor Welby.

The next item is correspondence dated 6 February 2014 from an anonymous source re Rehab and its subsidiary, the National Learning Network. It is to be noted and forwarded to SOLAS for information. The matter relates to a contract between a public body and a subsidiary of the Rehab Group. We can deal with the issue at next week's meeting.

The next item is correspondence dated 13 February 2014 from Deputy Mary Lou McDonald regarding a correction to an e-mail from Deputy Lucinda Creighton about publishing of financial statements. It is to be noted and published. What was the correction?

Clerk to the Committee:

In the correspondence the Deputy said that Sinn Féin publishes its financial accounts. I think Deputy Creighton said that only the Labour Party did so.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is a wish not to be left out of the loop.

Clerk to the Committee:

Yes.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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With regard to revenue, there are a few questions we could ask about its accounts.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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How is it set up in the North? That is the one I want to ask.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I remind members that we are in public session.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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There would be a fair few questions.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No. 3C consists of documents relating to the committee meeting of 20 February 2014. No. 3C.1 is correspondence received on 13 February 2014 from Ms Josephine Feehily, chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, with a briefing paper. It is to be noted and published. No. 3C.2 is correspondence received on 18 February 2014 from Josephine Feehily, which is an opening statement. It is to be noted and published. No. 3C.3 is correspondence received on 18 February 2014 from Josephine Feehily, which consists of briefing statistics. It is to be noted and published.

No. 4 consists of reports, statements and accounts received since our meeting on 13 February 2014. All of these - Nos. 4.1 to 4.7, inclusive - are to be noted.

The next item is the committee's work programme, which will have changed slightly due to decisions that we made this morning concerning the sub-committee, the visit to NAMA and the other matters that were raised by members. The work programme may have to be changed.

Clerk to the Committee:

Those matters will not affect our meeting next Thursday or next week.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is the work programme agreed? Do members wish to raise any matters? I take it that the work programme is agreed.

Under any other business, can we agree our agenda for the meeting of Thursday, 27 February 2014, which we have already outlined? These include: payments made by the HSE to Rehab under section 39 of the Health Act 2004; the operation of the charitable lotteries scheme and the payments made to Rehab from the Vote of the Department of Justice and Equality; and payments made by SOLAS to Rehab for the provision of specialist vocational training. Is that agreed? Agreed.