Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Pat Deering, Deputy Martin Heydon and Senator Pat O'Neill. Deputy Heydon has nominated Deputy Noel Harrington in substitution.

Before we begin, I remind members and witnesses to turn off their mobile telephones. I propose we continue in public session. Is that agreed? Agreed. We are here to discuss the effects of the recent storms on the fishing community, specifically damage to harbours, piers, property and equipment. I welcome Dr. Cecil Beamish, assistant secretary of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and his colleagues, Mr. Noel Clancy and Mr. Kevin Moriarty. Before I invite Dr. Beamish to make his opening statement, I remind witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity, either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Dr. Beamish to make his opening statement.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to contribute on this. Since December, there has been series of extreme storm events around the coast which have caused significant damage to infrastructure on our coastline and to publicly owned harbours, piers, slipways and related infrastructure. As of last Friday, the Department estimated that damage had occurred in more than 100 piers, harbours and slipways and other coastal infrastructure linked to fisheries and aquaculture. The damage has been done primarily to smaller piers, harbours and slipways. The fishery harbour centres in Howth, Dunmore East, Castletownbere, Dingle, Rossaveal and Killybegs did not suffer serious damage, although there was some damage in Dunmore East.

The latest storm first hit the west coast yesterday morning. Wave height was severe but it did not initially coincide with a high tide and that made a difference around the coast. However, there is a strong likelihood that these storms may continue over the weekend and, therefore, we are not sure if we are at the end of this spate of storms. The situation continues to evolve.

The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine was represented on, and contributed to, the national co-ordination group on severe weather, which was convened to assess the impact of the storms on infrastructure and communities and to ensure a co-ordinated response by relevant local authorities, Departments and agencies. Most of the harbours and piers around the coast that have been adversely affected by the recent storms are owned by the relevant local authority, and responsibility for their repair and maintenance rests with them in the first instance. However, the Department accepts that it has a key role to play in the Government's response to damage to publicly owned, fishery related piers, harbours and slipways around the coast. We also acknowledge that the OPW retains overall responsibility for the Government's response in regard to coastal erosion, coastal defence and flood defence projects generally. Our focus is on the piers, harbours and slipways linked to fisheries and aquaculture around the coast, and there are many of those.

A prime consideration for the Department is the dependence of a large proportion of the Irish fishing fleet, particularly our 1,900 inshore vessels, on the network of local authority-owned piers and harbours for their operational activities. With that consideration, and as part of our annual capital fishery harbour and coastal infrastructure development programme, we have run a limited scheme co-funding the repair and upgrade of local authority-owned harbours linked to fisheries and aquaculture. This has been a small scheme.

As part of its overall co-ordinated response to the impact of the recent unprecedented weather conditions, the Government has decided to allocate an additional €8.8 million for the repair of our publicly owned harbour network linked to fisheries and aquaculture. This is a significant amount, given current economic circumstances, and it is a clear indication of the Government's commitment to rural coastal communities dependent on this infrastructure and to the wider fishing sector. It is also part of the overall Government response to the storms.

While it is difficult to be definitive at this stage, the Department's engineers have engaged since the storm period began in an extensive consultation process with local authority engineers, and the estimate as of last Friday is that more than 100 piers, harbours and slipways across nine counties had experienced damage. That damage varies from relatively light to relatively severe. In the context of the additional funds now available, the Minister announced in the Dáil yesterday that it is proposed to broaden the scope of the Department's 2014 capital programme to encompass to the greatest extent possible repair works on publicly owned, fishery and aquaculture related piers, slipways and infrastructure in harbours damaged by the storms.

It is intended in the coming days to invite local authorities to apply for co-funding under this programme. Co-funding traditionally has been provided at a rate of 75% of the cost incurred in carrying out the project, but the Minister has decided in the circumstances to increase this rate to 90%. The invitation to local authorities will ask them prioritise a list of eligible projects on a county-by-county basis for consideration for funding the repair of the damage caused by the recent storms. This funding will be focused on infrastructural repairs to fisheries and aquaculture related harbours, piers and slipways. A number of normal, general criteria will apply to the scheme to ensure value for money is achieved in the design, implementation and execution of the repair works. Traditionally, the upper limit for support has been €150,000 per project because these are small projects, but that cap will be removed for this special scheme.

In addition to the funding to be provided to local authorities, the Department will be moving to repair storm damage to piers, harbours and coastal infrastructure in its direct ownership. Some coastal infrastructure in the direct ownership of the Department has also been damaged, and the Department will move through its engineering division as quickly as possible to repair the significant storm damage to the north harbour in Cape Clear that occurred in January, the breakwater in the Dunmore East fishery harbour centre in County Waterford, the Gun Rock beacon on Inishbofin, which was damaged ten days or two weeks ago, the West Cove navigational beacon in County Kerry, and Dooagh pier in County Mayo.

An evaluation committee will consider the eligibility of all local authority applications and decide on the basis of overall priorities and in the context of the total budget available the projects the Minister may consider for approval. In addition to this scheme to address the damage to the smaller piers and harbours around the coast, Bord lascaigh Mhara, working with the Department, has been producing consistent reports from around the coast of loss or destruction of lobster and shrimp pots owned by inshore fishermen during the extreme winter storm events. While some loss of pots is normal during the winter months, it is thought that the scale of losses this year is exceptional. It is understood that pots deployed in shallower waters have been most affected, but what makes this year more exceptional has been the loss of pots stored on quaysides. Reports indicate that many pots were washed off piers by the ferocity of waves and either destroyed or swept out to sea.

The pot fishermen affected by these losses are small-scale coastal fishermen. The majority of vessels are under 10 metres in length and many are open or just half decked vessels. In many cases, they are crewed by the owner or perhaps one other crew member. These fishermen primarily fish lobster, crab and other shellfish. With the loss of pots, the means of any fisherman affected to make a living is severely threatened. If they cannot replace their lost pots and return to fishing, they risk becoming unemployed.

With regard to the prioritisation of available funding, this situation has been examined closely. In considering assistance to these pot fishermen for their losses, the Minister announced yesterday he would move to address this. It is not possible for many of these fishermen to obtain insurance to cover loss of pots. Yesterday, the Minister announced in the Dáil a temporary, once-off scheme of assistance to these pot fishermen for the replacement of lobster and shrimp pots lost or destroyed in the recent extreme storm events.

The scheme will be focused on smaller inshore fishermen, limited to vessels under 15 m and will be administered by BIM, Bord Iascaigh Mhara. It will provide a set amount of €24 per lost lobster pot lost and €12 per lost shrimp pot. These amounts represent approximately 40% of the cost of replacement of such gear. The Department is conscious that some pot fishermen have reported losing several hundred pots. These are exceptional cases, however. Accordingly, the number of replacement pots for under 12 m vessels will be capped at 50 and for those vessels between 12 m and 15 m it will be capped at 100 pots. So a fisherman who has lost 100 pots at a replacement cost of approximately €6,000 will receive assistance of €2,400.

Fishermen availing of this scheme will be required to provide certain evidence to BIM to show they were actively pot fishing in the months before the storms, as well as evidence of purchase of the pots that were lost. In addition, they will be required to make a declaration concerning their losses. A maximum budget of €1.5 million has been set aside for the purposes of the scheme, to be borne by the existing Vote of the Department. No additional funding will be made available. Should applications exceed this budget, the rate of assistance will be reduced, either in terms of the amount of payment per pot or in terms of the maximum number of pots. We do not expect this to be the case, however. Further details of this scheme will be made available from BIM shortly.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Dr. Beamish. Senator O'Keeffe is under time pressure, so with the indulgence of other members, I will allow her to start first.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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I thank Dr. Beamish for his presentation. Its clarity is greatly appreciated. Is the breakdown of the co-funding 90% from the Department and 10% from local councils?

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

Yes, that is correct.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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There will be a committee meeting to evaluate the eligibility of projects. Does that imply some of the smaller piers will not be repaired? Or is the meeting to decide the order of repair? If a fisherman lost all of his pots, will he still be subject to this mathematical equation that will only give a third of the cost? How many months must a fisherman have to show as proof of actively pot fishing?

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

The Minister is increasing the co-funding rate from the traditional 75% up to 90%. The Department will be providing 90% of the cost of repair while the local authorities, 10%. That is much higher than has traditionally applied.

Without going into too much detail, the Department deals with certain types of infrastructure while the Office of Public Works deals with other aspects. The eligibility is primarily about whether it is a coastal defence, coastal erosion or coastal flood problem, which makes it an OPW problem. If it is linked to fisheries, aquaculture, piers and harbours it comes under the Department.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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Will they all get attended to?

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

I cannot speak for the OPW.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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I accept that but for the Department.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

We have done an assessment and have over 100 incidents of damage from the previous storm. Yesterday’s storm was not coincidental with a high tide. While it did damage on water and land, it did not have the same impact as the other storms. I must add we did not get full feedback on it this morning. We think we know the projects and will work with the local authorities on the schemes.

The local authority will decide on the priority in which it presents the projects. It is a matter for the local authority as it knows best on a county level which projects should get priority and in what rank they should be ordered. This is normal and it is the way such schemes have run in the past.

Many inshore pot fishermen do not fish through the winter months to avoid the hazards we are dealing with now or the fishery might not be seasonally suitable. The funding is directed to address people who have lost pots. We do not have a national record of who fishes in November and December. We need to get the evidence that people were fishing from, say, sales of shellfish and so forth, as we want to target the funding at those who actually incurred losses.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Most harbours and piers are owned by a local authority. What about public piers and slipways that are not? Some of these are damaged and are important for local use. I know Galway’s local authority has submitted non-local authority infrastructure that is public for repair. Will these be considered?

I accept the Department’s remit covers fisheries. Some small piers are used by traditional and recreational boats which still create an economic return. Will the Department omit these from consideration? There are many small seawalls and sluices all around the coast, some of them built by the Congested Districts Board, which were very effective but have been damaged and need to be replaced. Is the OPW or the Department responsible for these? I can see months of turf wars going on over these cheap but important infrastructures. There is one at Clooncullaun that has been damaged. The one at Ballyconneely collapsed and, as a result, it caused the flooding of a house that would never have flooded otherwise. The sea defences for the airstrip at Inis Meáin have been destroyed, which could result in the airstrip becoming unusable if the tide breaches the runway. How do we mediate the disputes that will arise between the various agencies passing the ball on these kinds of works?

I welcome the extra funding of €8.8 million. Of course, the next question is the logistics of spending the money. I presume that some of the work is so big that it will be necessary to go to design stage and then to tender stage. In those cases the Department will be lucky to spend any money this year. No matter what promise I am given here today, I would be very sceptical that much of the money that is going into design and tender will actually be spent this year.

However, a large number of piers and harbours have been damaged where less work involved, and it is more a matter of putting back what was there and repairing them. As we all know, if a few boulders come out of a pier, particularly some of the older stone piers, it is like when a geansaí or jersey starts to rip in that if nothing is done about it very quickly, the pier will become vulnerable to any kind of adverse weather. Will permission be given to the local authorities to take a shortcut version to getting repairs done, in other words, emergency works? Will that all be direct labour or will the local authorities be able to hire on a quick system, in other words, get the person in on the job to actually begin the repairs quickly? Otherwise, we can throw all the money we want on the table but we will not see anything before next Christmas.

I am worried about the issue of co-funding, even at a rate of 10%. It would be fair to say Donegal nearly went to the wire over its estimates this year and the council nearly got replaced. The question is what happens if a local authority comes and says to the Department that it will not put up the 10% and it is not going to do the work, even though that work needs to be done. We could get into the type of turf war that can happen in regard to co-funding. Is there an obligation on the local authorities to come up with the funding, and where are they meant to get the money for co-funding? My understanding is that the only source of their own funds, if one could call them their own funds, is a grant from the local property tax and the raising of rates, but that is not elastic and they have no control over either. What happens if they eyeball the Department and say they do not have the co-funding?

I welcome the inclusion of the Gun Rock Beacon on Inishbofin. I have photographs which show it is totally destroyed. It is in probably one of the most beautiful villages in Ireland and I welcome that it is on the list.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Dr. Beamish for his presentation. The scale of the damage done up to last Friday was mentioned in the presentation but, given what happened yesterday and what may happen later this week, we will have to re-evaluate the whole situation because many areas took an awful pounding yesterday, particularly in the south and south west.

The work that is to be carried out on piers and slipways that are owned by the local authorities is totally dependent on funding coming from the Government. Like Deputy Ó Cuív, I welcome the €8.8 million extra that has been allocated but given the extent of the damage that has been done, I do not believe it will go next or near to addressing the problem. Dr. Beamish mentioned that up to last Friday, some 100 piers were affected. How many of those piers are owned and regulated by the local authorities and what percentage are in public ownership but not under the auspices of the local authorities?

Many marinas have been damaged. Does the funding also include them? A huge aspect is the rock armour protecting piers and slipways and which also forms part of the breakwaters which give access to people coming into small piers. Great damage has been done to this, given the huge swell as well as the storms. Again, is that rock armour also included in what Dr Beamish has discussed? Dr. Beamish said there had traditionally been an upper limit of €150,000 per project and that this cap has been removed. Is there a new upper limit above that?

I believe it will be almost impossible to get adequate funding to meet the demands out there, given what the OPW and the local authorities will be looking for as well. Will there be an acceptance of local community support? With regard to the question of sand dunes and so forth, which is not the responsibility of the of the Department but of the OPW, there will be a need for community support in trying to repair the enormous damage that has been done. I am speaking in particular of areas like Fenit, Rossbeigh, Banna, Ballyheigue and so forth.

In addition, an issue that is not yet apparent, but which will become apparent when the work begins, is the amount of structural damage that has been done under the water line. This will require a survey of piers and slipways, because the slipways in particular have been hugely damaged underneath the water line. All of this will have to be assessed and factored in if piers and slipways are to be repaired to their original standard.

The local authorities have to come up with 10% of the funding themselves and I do not know where they are going to get it because they are absolutely strapped for cash. They can hardly meet the demands that exist let alone meet an additional demand for 10% co-funding.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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I thank the officials for the presentation. If I may, Chairman, as I have to go into the Dáil Chamber before we get to the lobster pot issue, I would like to ask two questions on that and they can be answered later.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That is fine.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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In regard to the allocation towards piers and harbours of €8.8 million, which has to be welcomed, what is the Department's estimate of the full cost of the damage to piers and harbours throughout the country? In order to allocate €8.8 million, there must be an estimate of the total cost and I would be interested to see how much of the total cost is being met with that allocation of €8.8 million.

As I understand it, unless this has been changed in the past year or two, the local authority co-funding requirement is 25% for Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine grants, or at least that was the situation when I was on Donegal County Council.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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By way of information, before the Deputy came in it was pointed out that this has been lifted.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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Fine. As other speakers have said, however, the 10% requirement for co-funding will still create huge problems for local authorities. This is an issue that needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency within the Department because local authorities will simply not have that amount of co-funding. There is also the question of lead-in costs for design work, consents and the like. Unless this has also been lifted, the local authorities will have to carry that cost before they can apply for funding to the Department. I would like further explanation in that regard.

The allocation of funding towards fishing gear and lobster pots is totally inadequate, and I am sure other speakers will cover this issue during the questions. I know some fishermen have lost nets and fishing gear but there is no sign of any scheme to help them replace that gear. Is this an issue to which the Department will give consideration? In recent months, many fishermen have been unable to get out to earn a living. Some sort of the scheme is required as a matter of urgency to compensate fishermen for loss of earnings, given the adverse weather conditions we have had in recent months.

Will the Department give any consideration to such a scheme? I expect the answer will be that people in that situation are looked after by the social welfare system. The problem, however, is that significant numbers of fishermen are self-employed and thus unable to access social welfare. Will the officials comment on that?

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the capital scheme. The provision of €8.8 million for nine counties is significant. I do not share the concerns that have been expressed regarding the ability of local authorities to come up with 10%, or €800,000, of that sum nationally. If it is spread equally across the nine counties, the requirement will be somewhere in the region of €80,000 to €90,000 per local authority. My experience with Cork County Council is that the chief concern was to secure national funding. The local contribution was never an issue if the departmental funding was put in place. If other local authorities encounter a difficulty in coming forward with their 10% contribution, I am sure Cork County Council will be happy to lift a heavier share of the burden. Will the delegates indicate how the estimate of €8.8 million was reached? Was it based on preliminary assessment figures submitted by local authorities in the past month? If so, I assume it does not take into account any damage that was done in recent days.

An issue of concern, in the context of the increased activity that will take place after the moneys are allocated under the capital scheme, is that there are not many contractors who are skilled in these types of marine infrastructure projects. It is not run-of-the-mill construction work, with people having to work with tides, underwater and so on. Has the Department done any assessment of how the specialised nature of the work might affect the tendering process and the financial implications arising therefrom? If there are insufficient numbers of qualified contractors, will that have the effect of bumping up prices?

Are there any issues regarding planning approvals, planning applications or foreshore licences which might cause delays on any of the projects? Was any assessment done of whether overlaps arise in terms of projects submitted under the scheme having been previously submitted as priority projects for local authorities in recent years? It seems logical, for example, that some of the piers that were damaged in recent days were already damaged to some degree and already requiring repair. Such piers would be the first to crumble under weather pressure. Was account taken of that issue when the assessment was done?

Nine counties are to be allocated funding under the scheme. Will the officials indicate whether some of those counties have been identified as being more severely affected than others in terms of damage to sea walls and other coastal infrastructure?

Michael McNamara (Clare, Labour)
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I welcome the allocation of €8.8 million for the repair of the publicly owned harbour network. To clarify, is this allocation part of the €70 million provision the Government announced after the Cabinet meeting on Tuesday or in addition to it?

Dr. Beamish made the distinction that coastal protection works are a matter for the Office of Public Works while piers and so on are the responsibility of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I wish it were that straightforward and clear-cut. I have correspondence to hand going back to 1989 between Noel Treacy, the then Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Brendan Daly, the then Minister for the Marine, and the then secretary of Clare County Council. That correspondence went back to Mr. Treacy and subsequently to John P. Wilson, as Tánaiste and Minister for the Marine. All three organisations - the OPW, Clare County Council and the then Department of the Marine - seemed intent on disowning responsibility for the particular works that were the subject of this correspondence, which are located in an area called Tromra Castle in Quilty. They were included in a 1992 report compiled by the County and City Managers Association detailing emergency coastal works which required immediate attention. The total projected cost of completing all of those works was some £14 million in 1992, or approximately €17.5 million. Successive governments chose to ignore that report and now the bill for Clare alone is €35 million.

Many of the works to which I am referring - culverts and sluice gates in particular - were built by the Land Commission, the successor to which, as I understand it, is the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. In theory, therefore, these works would be the responsibility, to the extent they are the responsibility of anybody, of that Department. Likewise, there is a series of culverts in low-lying areas across the west coast of Clare which are also the subject of correspondence and which everybody is seeking to disown bar the unfortunate landowners who, in some instances, are afraid to touch them because to do so might constitute interference with a special area of conservation. Some of these landowners have had visits from the National Parks and Wildlife Service.

I have outlined the issues in west Clare. On the Fergus Estuary, meanwhile, there is a large number of embankments, some of which are the responsibility of the OPW and on which work has been carried out by the latter. However, some are also Land Commission works and now vest, as I understand, in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I appreciate that the delegates will not have an answer today, but I would like to know that somebody is working to ensure a unified response to the problem. These embankments and culverts were put there for a reason by either the Land Commission or the OPW, and they need to be maintained. I hope another Deputy is not sitting in this chair in 25 years time going over a ream of correspondence between various Ministers intent on disowning responsibility for the works. We must devise a way of maximising the limited resources available to us to carry out necessary works.

Tom Barry (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the delegates for their presentation and join colleagues in welcoming the allocation of €8.8 million. With regard to the pots-----

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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We will be dealing with the pots and so on in the second round of questions, Deputy.

Tom Barry (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Unfortunately, I have to leave shortly. I am sure the Chairman will accommodate me in asking some brief questions. With regard to the pots, do the witnesses see any requirement to encourage a change of practice in future so that fishermen, especially those operating pots out of the quay side, would take adequate protections to prevent them being swept away? Do the officials regard it as unfair that counties with large coastlines should bear the full cost of repair of quays and so on? Is there any inventory of our coastline detailing the infrastructure that exists, the extent of damage done in recent weeks and how much it will cost to repair or replace? Would the witnesses agree that we need to look at infrastructural planning and maintenance in the framework of a 20 year plan, for instance, categorising buildings as old and new and so on and estimating the likely long-term cost of maintenance and repair?

Should we seek some form of risk equalisation mechanism for this type of coastal infrastructure given that everyone benefits from it? Should inland counties not make a contribution towards maintaining it?

Were all the piers that sustained damage old structures? Did any of the piers built in recent years show signs of damage? If so, must the engineering practices applied to the recently built structures be reviewed? Should a 20 year plan be implemented? The damage may have been once-off but rather than respond in a knee-jerk manner, as we did several years ago when we responded to two bad winters by stockpiling mountains of salt which have still not been used, we should learn lessons and implement a long-term strategy. We have a tendency to rush to alleviate immediate problems. We need long-term policies to avoid having to ask in future what emergency measures we should introduce in response to crises. As Deputy Ó Cuív correctly noted, it is not possible to spend large sums in the immediate aftermath of such events. Time is needed.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ó Cuív seeks clarification on a matter related to special areas of conservation.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am not concerned about the sum of €8.8 million that has been provided because it will be difficult to spend it quickly. On a practical issue, difficulties were encountered previously in certain areas that are designated national heritage areas and special areas of conservation. For example, one needs permission to use a bag of cement on certain piers. I recall when the deck of a pier in Coill Saileach was being raised we had to wait for a year for the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, to clear the proposal because the bay is located in a special area of conservation. Has the Department arranged with the NPWS a díolúine - an exemption - for the emergency works to allow works to proceed? We must avoid projects being held up and money that has been allocated being left unspent. I predict that it will be difficult to spend the €8.8 million this year. This is an issue of budgeting for future years. The problem is not one of securing money but of spending it.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Harrington alluded to that in respect of foreshore licence requirements in advance of works. For once, the fellow living 700 ft. above sea level is not affected.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

Members have made many points. This is part of a response being taken by the Government and, as such, it is focused on particular types of infrastructure and problems. In preparing and trying to assess the damage, we did not make only one estimate. We have been doing this assessment since the storms commenced and our engineers have been interacting with local authority engineers to assess the damage as it has been occurring and estimating repair costs. The Government's response is built up on that basis.

It is true that the position has evolved with each storm and no one can state that we have reached the end point. The estimate has been built up on that basis. As of last Friday, the assessment was drawn up and presented to the Government on the basis of the projects we have drawn up with the local authorities. This also took account of the estimated costs of repair.

Many of the projects are relatively small and can probably be dealt with through direct labour. If the local authority wants to deal with the problem through direct labour, it can apply for funding and deal with it in that way. Many of the smaller works will certainly be done this way.

A question was raised about the number of contractors. We have not noted any shortage of contractors in any of the works we have been tendering. As I stated, most cases do not involve highly complex engineering problems.

Much of the infrastructure around the coast is up to 150 years old, although it will have been updated, repaired or patched in the meantime and some of it is newer. Many of the affected piers, slipways and harbours involve small works. Nevertheless, they are important for local communities. It is a matter of getting the version to scale.

We are dealing only with that type of infrastructure as coastal erosion and coastal protection are matters for the Office of Public Works to address in conjunction with local authorities. The €8.8 million response of the Government is not intended for those purposes as that type of work is primarily for the OPW.

Deputy McNamara spoke of various reports dating back to 1992.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Labour)
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I referred to correspondence dating back beyond 1992.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

Yes, he referred to former Ministers and previous generations. Most Administrations have changed the responsibilities and structures of Departments over the years. It is not easy to draw inferences from things that date back such a long time as various responsibilities have been moved. Four or five years ago, for example, responsibility for coastal protection and protection as well as inland flooding was combined under the Office of Public Works, with a view to ensuring an integrated response in the context of climate change, flooding concerns and so forth. The position has changed substantially over the years. At one time the Department with responsibility for the marine was responsible for coastal flooding and erosion but this changed five or six years ago.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Labour)
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If it is the case that coastal flooding and erosion and inland flooding have been unified, why are landowners in west County Clare and along the Shannon Estuary being told that certain infrastructure is the responsibility of the Office of Public Works, while other elements of infrastructure are the responsibility of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine?

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

I did not say that things have been unified but that they change over time and responsibilities move. The general responsibility for coastal erosion, protection and flooding and inland flooding, including the relevant resources and so forth, was moved to the Office of Public Works.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I have a brief question because this is an important issue. There will always be marginal calls. Has a dispute resolution procedure been established to deal with such calls? In a case where various Departments are kicking the ball over to other Departments, does one Minister bang heads until one Department agrees to assume responsibility for the matter? There may be 15 Departments but there is only one Government. Without such a mechanism, responsibility will move from Billy to Jack forever, as I observed.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It is difficult for Dr. Beamish to answer that question. The key point is to ensure someone has responsibility in the case of every item of infrastructure. The allocation made by the Minister is confusing as it provides for €26 million for local authority infrastructure, tourism, amenity and community infrastructure and piers and harbours. This creates a grey area. Perhaps Dr. Beamish will clarify the position as regards the Land Commission.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

My understanding was that the purpose of the meeting was to discuss coastal damage.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Labour)
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That is correct.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

As I understand it, land and land related damage, area aid issues-----

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Dr. Beamish is not being asked about those issues. Deputy McNamara asked whether the Department has responsibility for old Land Commission works on the coast.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Basically, this involves the work of the district boards.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

Our remit is to deal with harbours and piers infrastructure and that is the issue I have come before the joint committee to discuss. The other issues have been dealt with by others in my Department who deal with the flooding of lands and so forth. My understanding was that the joint committee had planned to invite my colleagues before it on 27 February to discuss flooding issues on the land.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It is not fair to ask Dr. Beamish to respond. The general point is that in the case of each element of public infrastructure one Department must assume responsibility.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I was about to make precisely that point.

In response to this, could our committee bring to the attention of the powers that be the need for a Department to take the lead role and assign responsibility where none has been accepted?

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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We can do that, but let us revert to Dr. Beamish. In fairness, we are not trying to get him to address issues we did not ask him to prepare for, but what I read from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government indicates the level of confusion that can arise. The definition of "infrastructure" is almost the same, but it has a different usage.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

Many different types of damage occurred during the storms, whether they be urban flooding, damage to buildings or something that requires humanitarian assistance. These cut across a swathe of Government. We are seeking to use the Department's expertise, in conjunction with local authorities, to try to address a particular form of infrastructure that has been damaged and to support the fishing industry.

The expectations about disputes, etc., might be a little overstated. For several years, we have worked with local authorities. Deputy Pringle referred to the traditional relationship between them and the Department, including the issue of funding. This work is not completely new to local authorities. Their engineering departments are familiar with what our Department supports and what is not within our remit. There will not be as broad an area of confusion as is being suggested at this meeting. We have worked with the local authorities in advance of the funding provided by the Government. They will be invited to submit in accordance with that estimate. They will know reasonably well which of the projects that have been discussed for the past four or five weeks are eligible and how they can be supported.

The point about co-funding might have been overstated, in the sense that there is €8.8 million across nine counties, some 10% of works of that order. It is not an enormous sum, but it is divided across the counties.

Deputy Ó Cuív raised an issue about public infrastructure where legal ownership is unclear. Some of this dates back hundreds of years. The primary concern is that the focus of Government funding be on public infrastructure, not private. There may be some legal issues, but the local authorities will present us with their counties' priority projects and we will take that information at face value.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Irrespective.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

We will need to determine whether there is a legal issue, but it is not a complete-----

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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There are many piers in Gaeltacht areas, but we are not in charge of them. Indeed, there are many pieces of public infrastructure of which we are not in charge.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

Much of this is a Galway issue. The situation is traditionally more acute in Galway than it is in other counties.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We have a longer coastline.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

Absolutely.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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If it can be dealt with, it will be.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

The distinction is that this is not about private property on the shoreline, but public property.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Taking something in charge would still be-----

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

We will consider the matter. It has not been ruled out.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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What about the special areas of conservation, SACs, and so on?

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

The Deputy would probably need to discuss that matter with the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, which is determining what cross-Government remediation is required where environmental obligations are involved. In many cases, what we are discussing is the repair of what is already in existence, not an increase or change to the environmental impact as might be the case elsewhere. Most of this involves repairing walls, access points to piers, etc.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Do not underestimate the difficulties. When we were working on Cionn tSaile, the main element involved raising the deck above sea level. We were ready to rock and roll when we ran into endless delays with the NPWS. It can get its teeth into things. This is not something that I am manufacturing - I have encountered it.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

The Deputy asked whether the money would be spent this year. It will. It was decided on the basis of the estimation of the cost of repairing the damage. Most of it is small and there should be a relatively quick turnaround with the work. I envisage that it will be done this year.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Galway and many other local authorities do not have much-----

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Through the Chair, please.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry. Little direct labour is available to the county council. It will be used on roads, etc. When there is a contract for a job, does it require design, planning and procurement elements? If so, there will be a long saga. Some councils have no further direct labour capacity.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Will there be a time lag?

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

It would be a matter for the counties when presenting their projects. Some have a tradition of using a great deal of direct labour, some less so. We will not discriminate for or against a direct labour approach. Most of the work involves repairs and replacing existing structures. In this context, we do not foresee a planning delay for most of the works that we have been reviewing.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Will they be tendered?

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

Government procedures must be followed. Value for money is always a consideration when handing out public money. We must account for that.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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A question was asked about a ceiling on funding.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

The €150,000 ceiling has been removed. There is a ceiling on the available total funding, but there is no ceiling on an application.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ferris asked a question on underwater structural surveys.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

He was correct. Mr. Noel Clancy, our head of engineering, is present. We were aware of the matter during the prolonged period of storms, but we have not had calm seas and low tides to enable the councils to inspect all of the structures as desired. There may be damage. The engineers have been doing their best to estimate on the basis of what can be seen, but we have not had a prolonged calm period with low tides to conduct base foundation examinations, etc. One cannot rule out damage.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Harrington asked a general question. Of the nine counties, have the storms done more damage to any in particular?

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

There are no surprises that Donegal, Sligo, Mayo, Kerry, Cork, Waterford, Wexford, Galway and Clare are the nine counties. Sligo has a relatively short coastline with few of these types of harbour. As such, it has a small number of damaged harbours. Wexford also has a relatively small number of harbours, but it has suffered a significant amount of damage because it has a soft coastline that was more exposed to the easterly winds that occurred for a time during the storms. The damage is not exclusive to the west coast, but the bulk of it is. The larger the county and the longer the coastline, the greater the incidence of damage, particularly where there is a significant number of small piers and harbours and a considerable amount of fishing activity. I will not go into them all.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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A general view, then.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

The damage is spread across the nine, but the smaller counties have seen fewer incidents.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Will we move to the issue of the pots?

Michael McNamara (Clare, Labour)
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Is the €8.8 million part of, or in addition to, the €70 million that was announced?

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Earlier, I read out the breakdown of the moneys as announced by the Minister and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. One could be forgiven for thinking this allocation was for the same purpose. However, it relates to the similar infrastructure used for different purposes. Somebody raised the issue of marinas.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

They are not covered.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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They might be covered by a different allocation.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

That may be the case.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Labour)
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What is the difference between a marina and a pier-harbour?

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The difference is the definition of use.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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Harbour boards come under the auspices of the relevant county councils. Do marinas not also come within the auspices of the relevant county councils? Is Dr. Beamish saying that if the councils seek funding for the marinas as part of their capital allocation, this will not be taken into consideration?

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

The focus is on infrastructure related to fisheries and aquaculture. The issue raised by the Deputy may be particular to Fenit.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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I do not know what damage has been done to the marinas but there are fishing vessels that tie on to marinas, in respect of which the owners pay harbour dues.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

We will have to look at that. The lines here are not completely clear. In Dingle, we have a marina but it is a fishery harbour centre. I am not suggesting any damage has been done there. For example, in Kilrush, there is a specific marina but it is not the type of infrastructure we are looking at in this context.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Labour)
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That is Shannon Development-owned.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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Is Dr. Beamish undertaking to look at the issue I have raised?

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

Yes, in the context of our priority projects.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That relates to the point made earlier that every piece is picked up somewhere. We will move on now to lobster and shrimp pots.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We were told that no aid can be provided in respect of loss of and damage to boats. I would like to see a copy of the state aid rules wherein it is stated that in the event of a tremendous storm, state aid cannot be given to people who have lost property that was not insurable.

I understand the following issue is a matter for another Department. The committee will need to bring to the attention of the relevant Minister the issue of fishermen who have not been able to earn any money or obtain social welfare payments for, in some cases, eight weeks or more. People cannot live without money.

I have a number of points to make on this section. First, I believe all gear should be covered. Places where people have stored things for generations were washed away with the tide. It was totally unprecedented so it was not carelessness. For a person who has a lot of pots to move them to other land every year would require him or her to hire a lorry to do that. In many places they are pulled well up from the tide and stored. In fairness to local rural people, they tend to know where the danger lies and how to avoid it. That very few rural houses were flooded is reflective of their ability to know where best to build their homes, in particular, older houses.

Second, to my way of thinking the 40% is totally inadequate in the context of a person having to come up with €3,600 and the number of days fishing required to meet that cost. It is amazing that we can give 90% to a local authority, in respect of which I anticipate a problem will arise, and yet we can give only 40% to fishermen and that even that 40% will be only given in limited circumstances. I believe there should be one limit, namely, 100 pots and a boat under 12 m. The size of a boat is often a factor in the type of sea in which a person fishes. Some fish in big sheltered bays, of which there are many in Connemara. I cannot understand the reason for the differentiation or the reason a person who had 100 pots or a boat under 12 m is not compensated for same. In my view, the percentage is very low.

If I went around the country and asked people who had purchased household furniture in the past four years to produce a receipt for it, I am sure they might not have it. Evidence of purchase of pots that were lost will be hard to come by. While the response may be that the receipts would have been needed for tax returns purposes, many of the people about whom we are speaking have never in their lives filed tax returns. I accept they should, however, have retained them for the purposes of means testing and so on. They often do not realise that a receipt for €100 is as good as a €100 cheque to them. We have to face realities. Many small fishermen do not have these receipts. The Department is aware of how much each of them sold because most of them sell to registered buyers. Is that correct?

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

Yes.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is fair to say then that if they sold a lot of shrimps or lobsters, they had to have a fair number of pots. In my view instead of saying, as did Dr. Beamish in his opening statement, that, in addition, they will be required to make a sworn declaration concerning their losses, we should say that as long as they produce evidence that they were doing the fishing, and they produce the pots and so on, they will be paid. The scheme is very limited anyway. I would rather a higher grant for a fixed number of pots than a lower grant for more pots. Allowance must be made for realities. We are all aware of the realities that are going to jump up and bite people in this regard thus making the scheme a very cheap one because many people will find it impossible to produce receipts.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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It is important the skippers and crews of the white fish boats that have been tied up for some three months now, who up to now have not received one cent, which as Deputy Ó Cuív said may be the responsibility of another Department, are provided with some income. I would like to see both Departments working together to ensure that applications for social welfare by these people are fast tracked. Perhaps the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine would confirm to the Department of Social Protection its acceptance that people have not been at sea since mid-December and have had no income whatsoever.

Quite a lot of damage has been caused to boats. Also, many boats sank and need to be raised. Anybody who is familiar with raising boats, in particular from a harbour, repairing it and getting it fit for fishing again will be aware that part of the cost involved in that regard is the hire of cranes from the harbour board to lift boats from the water and the renting of space to carry out the repair works and so on. Could consideration be given to this from a local authority point of view? Local authorities must co-fund projects to the tune of 10%. Could such works be written off as part of that 10%, which would obviously be passed on to boat owners, many of whom will have also lost fishing gear such as gill nets, lobster, shrimp and crayfish pots? Could consideration be given to the writing off of the cost of hire of harbour board cranes and space in respect of the raising and repair work of boats?

Will that be part of the 10% contribution from the local authorities?

Fishermen have lost a considerable amount of gear. Since just before Christmas they have had to put up with nine storms in a row, which is unprecedented in my lifetime. Obviously we do not yet know the extent of the damage from last night's one. There are people who cannot get near their equipment and do not know what they have lost yet. They have not been to sea for weeks and do not know the damage that has been done. In a normal swell whether in shallow water or deep water, people can be fairly certain that the deep water gear would not be badly damaged but shallow water gear would be damaged with a bad swell. However, after what we have been through in the past three to four weeks regardless of the depth of water, there will be huge damage.

It is not just the pots they have lost, but also the damage done to pots that they might be able to recover afterwards. I know people will try to repair pots if possible so that they can go back fishing again. There are caps in support of 50 and 100 pots for vessels of up to 12 m and vessels between 12 m and 15 m. If people have lost 600, 700 or 800 pots, that represents €36,000 to €40,000 worth of fishing gear. We know they are struggling to keep fishing. They are not in a position to replace what they have lost. Further consideration needs to be given regarding compensation for people who have lost all their gear and are not in a position to replace it. It can cost €60, €65 or €70 for soft eye pots. A fisherman who has lost 600 of those is down €36,000. What lending institution will give €36,000 to someone who has been struggling all along to make ends meet? The Department needs to review that to see if something further can be done in that regard.

Those who are fishing and potting over the winter are fishing for the Christmas market and the Easter market. At that time they can get €22 to €24 per kg, whereas in the middle of summer it comes down to €8 to €10 per kg. People take a chance on fishing at that time because that is how they can make the extra few bob. The people involved have been wiped out now. It is not 50 pots they have lost, but 500 to 800 pots. That issue needs to be given more consideration.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome any scheme that gives assistance. I have been speaking to some of the people who have lost gear, including last night when the scheme was announced. They were pleased that there is some scheme, but they said that it could have been better and they could have got more money, and that they could have had greater recognition for the loss of more pots or been given more per pot.

I spoke to some of them on the issue of producing receipts for the purchase of the pots. That was not an issue for any of the four or five people I met. The issue was the amount.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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As a vote has been called in the Dáil, we will need to suspend when Deputy Harrington concludes.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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During the discussions on coming up with a scheme, what was the Department's knowledge of how many people were badly affected? I am talking about those who have lost 300, 400 or 500 pots. This weather was forecasted and some people took pots out of the water in advance of the bad weather because they knew it was going to be serious. As Dr. Beamish said, some of them took them in and stored them appropriately on the quays and piers and they still got lost. Some people on the south-east coast did not get a chance to bring them in because there was a search going on for an unfortunate colleague who was lost at sea. Many people were punished for doing the right thing in many ways.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I am conscious that a vote has been called in the Dáil. Most of the points have been made. If people want, we can come back. However, the overarching point is that people have been unable to go out and earn an income directly because of the bad weather. It is not structural damage or loss of property but just the bad weather that affects them and they are not able to claim. The sub-committee report recommended that this needs to be recognised in the social welfare code. It is an issue that the witnesses might take away for discussion another day. However, it is very relevant in this context.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

I wish to make a point of information, which the committee will need to take up with the Department of Social Protection. There is a scheme that has existed for some time similar to jobseeker's benefit, called the fish assist scheme, which was designed a number of years ago to help self-employed fishermen in need of reliance on the social welfare scheme.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That does not solve the problem. It does not work.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

I do not know about that. I cannot answer for that.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The committee should invite representatives from the Department of Social Protection come to discuss it with us. Are we happy enough?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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While anything is welcome, the scheme is too restrictive with too many conditions and the grant aid is too small.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That is the general point.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

There is a general concern that there are too many pots around the coast and that stocks are under pressure. There have been various calls for limiting and restricting pots. While this is a genuine attempt to assist people to replace pots that have been lost, it is also trying to protect against increasing the total amount of effort that would occur around the coast. It is trying to balance those two concerns.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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We need to conclude.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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Can the 10% the local authorities are co-funding not be-----

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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If as a consequence of damage to a harbour a boat has to be lifted, they will contribute 10% to salvaging the gear.

Dr. Cecil Beamish:

This is capital funding and will have to be set against capital expenditure by the local authority.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank Dr. Beamish, Mr. Moriarty and Mr. Clancy for attending.