Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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We will now meet the Commissioner for Victims and Survivors, Ms Kathryn Stone OBE. It is not the first time the committee has met Ms Stone. Some of us met informally last May. We welcome her back and appreciate her being here. We are looking forward to her informing us about the work of the commission in promoting the interests of victims and survivors. I also welcome Mr. John Beggs, secretary to the commission, who is accompanying the commissioner today. We look forward to hearing about their ongoing valuable work.

Before I invite Ms Stone to make her presentation, I wish to advise that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of utterances. However, if they are directed to cease making remarks on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. They are directed that only comments related to the subject matter of this meeting are to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I now call on Ms Stone to proceed with her presentation.

Ms Kathryn Stone:

I thank the Chairman for his introduction. I thank him again for the kind invitation to come before the committee today to comment on the role of the Commission for Victims and Survivors and our key priorities for the future.
I am grateful to the committee for affording me the opportunity to discuss a number of issues that directly affect the lives of victims and survivors. Despite the passage of time, including some 15 years after the signing of the Agreement, there are many victims and survivors who continue to suffer from the devastating effects of the Troubles.
I express my pleasant surprise and gratitude to see members of Justice for the Forgotten, Ms Margaret Irwin and Ms Bernadette Joly, here today. I acknowledge their tireless work. They are an important reminder to us all of why we do what we do for victims and survivors.
As the Commissioner for Victims and Survivors in Northern Ireland, I believe passionately in the work of the commission to promote the rights of all victims and survivors to be heard, to be respected and to have access to services that are the best they can be. Over the past year, there has been a significant amount of reflection and comment around the 15th anniversary of the signing of the Agreement. Before providing the committee with an update on the work of the commission, it is worth briefly highlighting the commitments made to victims by the signatories to the Agreement.
The Agreement, as I am sure the committee will recall, states:

It is recognised that victims have a right to remember as well as to contribute to a changed society. The achievement of a peaceful and just society would be the true memorial to the victims of violence.

Those affected have various needs and it is imperative that we all take responsibility for ensuring that we address them properly. The needs vary. Obviously people require adequate resources and treatment, support and help, access to social support and access to help to obtain the justice and truth they deserve, if that is what they want.
The committee has asked that we brief it on the commission's priorities. I would like to do this by initially taking it through the work of the Victims and Survivors Forum. I will then highlight a number of key areas of work based on the commission's three key strategic priorities, namely, building for the future, dealing with the past and improving services for victims.
One of my primary duties as commissioner is to make arrangements for a forum for consultation and discussion for victims and survivors. Strengthening the role and enhancing the profile and work of the Victims and Survivors Forum has been one of my priorities since coming into office. The forum currently has 22 members, 19 of whom meet the definition of victim and are representative of the breadth of victim experience. There are three associate members, who bring their unique experience to enrich the work of the forum. It is important for me to reinforce the contribution made by forum members as volunteers who meet once a month, at a minimum, to inform the work of the commission. The work of the forum increasingly underpins the work of the commission. It has become a resource for the commission to discuss and identify live issues for victims and survivors across three working groups, which concern dealing with the past, services, and building for the future.
In the past year, the forum's working groups have continued to meet regularly, engaging with a range of academics, politicians and other key stakeholders to inform their work. Examples of meetings include those with Lord Freud and Minister McCausland on welfare reform and the Attorney General to discuss the implications of Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights for victims and survivors. Importantly, last November, the forum met Dr. Richard Haass in addition to all of the political representatives that comprised the panel of parties to the Haass negotiations.
I will return briefly to the impact of the forum in informing the work of the commission but at this point I must emphasise the significant and positive impact of the forum on victim and survivor issues. In my opening remarks, I noted the commitment to victims and survivors contained in the Agreement. In the years following the Agreement, it was lauded internationally for aligning the process of political transition with the recognition of the rights of children and young people, including those affected by the trans-generational impact of the conflict. Developing our understanding and responding effectively to the negative impact of the conflict's legacy on the lives of young people in Northern Ireland is a primary area of concern for the commission.
Fifteen years after the Agreement and 20 years since the ceasefires, it is certainly an appropriate time to reflect on the continuing impact of the conflict's legacy on victims and survivors. Throughout the Troubles, young people suffered disproportionately in terms of the number killed and generations of young people who have been left to cope with carrying a significant burden due to exposure to conflict-related violence.
We will be undertaking a number of research projects, including one in partnership with the University of Ulster. The Better Future project will include an examination of the relationship between the impact of the conflict's legacy on the social, economic, and political life of Northern Ireland and the extent to which these factors affect children and young people's mental health and social well-being.
Let me turn to dealing with the past. A question I have often been asked since taking up the post as a single commissioner is how I tread a course through the diversity of opinion and the widely varying while promoting the interest of all victims and survivors. The question has certainly not become any easier to answer 18 months into my post. Without doubt, one of the most challenging areas for the commission, if not the most challenging, is dealing with the past. As members will know, dealing with the legacy of the past and issues relating to truth, justice and acknowledgement remain contentious and divisive across society in Northern Ireland.
From a victims' and survivors' perspective, it is important to remember first of all that victims are not a homogenous group and do not speak with one voice. Different people want different outcomes. The forum is a very good example of where people from a range of backgrounds have come together to share and understand one another's perspectives. While they might not agree with one another, they have come to respect that different people have different world-views.
Despite the disagreement among local political parties relating to the proposed agreement document that emerged from the Haass process, it does provide an important message. The document states:

We can [...] all agree that the past has consequences for individual victims and society that continue through the present. We must meet the challenges posed by the past and work to ensure that they do not overwhelm the present or undermine the future.

The final report will be presented to the commission in March 2014 and, based on the findings and recommendations, I will then provide advice for Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister on the next steps in progressing this important project on behalf of the severely injured. In the year ahead my focus will be on collaborating with the forum, engaging with the wider community of victims and commissioning research to provide an evidence base to inform my advice to the Government, with advice on how to deal with the past, build for the future and provide services from a victims' perspective.

I respectfully request this committee to encourage others in considering urgently the Haass proposals and, specifically, those proposals for dealing with the past and victims. Prior to the Haass discussions and throughout the process, politicians committed sincerely to supporting victims and making their needs paramount in the discussions. I ask committee members to urge their colleagues not to lose their momentum or forget the victims.

I thank the committee for listening to my presentation. My colleague, Mr. John Beggs, and I are happy to take members' questions.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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Will Ms Stone indicate a date for the conference?

Ms Kathryn Stone:

It is to be held on 25 February.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I am sure members will have suggestions and feedback on the Haass discussions. We held a session to consider the disappointing outcome of the discussions and members will reflect our reaction as a committee.

Dr. Alasdair McDonnell:

It would be superfluous to ask questions after that gold-plated presentation, but I wish to raise a number of points. I thank Ms Stone and her team for the tremendous work they have done. We should record the value of that work to the people and the even-handed way in which they approached victims, irrespective of from where they or the victim makers came. I endorse the comments on the Haass discussions. Having been involved in the negotiations, we made considerable achievements on behalf of the victims and it is a tragedy that the negotiations were not concluded. We are, however, still working on these issues. On Monday and Tuesday I was engaged in lengthy meetings. I want to see a conclusion and, if there is one priority in driving the effort to reach a conclusion, it is the needs of victims and survivors. I agree that victims need a conclusion and that the Haass process must provide a way of supporting victims and survivors. There is potential to achieve closure and reduce the pain many victims feel. On behalf of those in my party with whom I am associated, I assure Ms Stone we will be driving the process every bit as much as she wants to see us driving it.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I am grateful to Ms Stone for briefing me shortly after her appointment and her subsequent engagement. Her presentation was excellent and dealt comprehensively with the different aspects of victims' needs and other legacies of the past. In the aftermath of the signing of the Good Friday Agreement, Kenneth Bloomfield was appointed as victims commissioner in the North and the former Tánaiste, the late John Wilson, became victims commissioner in the South. Has Ms Stone succeeded Mr. Bloomfield, or is her role separate?

I endorse Mr. McDonnell's positive comments on the need to reach agreement on the Haass proposals. The SDLP, the Alliance Party and Sinn Féin worked positively and proactively on the proposals to reach agreement, but, unfortunately, the Unionist parties have not made the same commitment.

I gather from the tone of Ms Stone's comments that the services provided are not adequate to deal with people's personal and health problems or their educational needs. All of the victims are getting older and a cohort are now elderly. As time passes, it will become increasingly difficult to provide them with adequate services. Is the issue of providing adequate services for those in older age groups, in particular, being treated with the urgency it deserves?

I wish Ms Stone well in her work in this difficult area. As she correctly noted, the victims' needs should be paramount in all of the work done by the people of this island to address the issues arising.

Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Stone for her presentation which was one of the most comprehensive and clearest I had heard in a long time. Regardless of where I go in the North, it is not long before people raise this issue. When we were in Dungannon with Ms Gildernew, we heard people speak about it. The Justice for the Forgotten group discussed it recently with this committee. Does Ms Stone agree that the issue informs many of the current political positions in the North? The committee had a lengthy discussion on the Haass report. Does she think the recommendation made in the report on victims and survivors can be a template for making progress in this area and would she add anything to it? She has noted that a review is ongoing of the victims' and survivors' service. Has there been much of a take-up of the service? What is the level of buy-in?

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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We took statements in the Dáil on the North for most of yesterday afternoon. While there was limited agreement on the causes of the conflict, I would like to think there is agreement that we must ensure we will never be revisited by conflict.

There is very little agreement with some parties on the definition of victims, which is part of the difficulty. How important is the fact that we find it difficult to deal with the past? Some say it is time to move on and forget about it, that there is no point in going over old hurts and wrongs. Will dealing with the past be one of the recommendations Ms Stone considers? In the past couple of weeks there was a reconciliation event in the Skainos centre in east Belfast, which this committee has visited on a number of occasions. The Skainos centre is the tent; it is supposed to be safe, a shared space to which people can come. For example, Mr. Pat Magee, who served time for the Brighton bombing, and Ms Jo Berry, whose father was killed in that bombing, met in it. They talked about the story of their relationship, how they had got to meet each other and how this had or had not helped with their difficulties in dealing with the past. People and members of the PSNI were attacked outside. How important is it for victims to deal with the issue of reconciliation? How important is it to have this shared space in which people can come together? Different groups have come together, including ex-combatants or people who have been hurt by the Troubles. Is there any way the victims' commissioner can facilitate the likes of this happening? Ms Stone has said there is no agreement on the definition of "victim" among victims or political parties. There is no victims' commission in this jurisdiction. There is very little funding for it. Is that a weakness in the system and is there a need for some such structure?

Justice for the Forgotten was mentioned. Representatives of that organisation came here and said funding was one difficulty. There is an anomaly in that it could obtain funding in the North but not in Dublin. Does Ms Stone have recommendations for the two Governments in that regard? Will she examine this issue as part of her submission? Justice for the Forgotten is going to the Historical Enquiries Team, HET, which is questionable. It is also going to the Police Ombudsman's office to talk about pursuing investigations that the RUC was supposed to have performed in the past and its actions or inaction. There is no similar mechanism whereby people can go to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. Can Ms Stone make recommendations to the two Governments on dealing with such issues?

Ms Michelle Gildernew:

I thank Ms Stone and Mr. Beggs for their very comprehensive and succinct presentation. When one lives and works in the North, one cannot fail to know somebody who has been a victim of the conflict. One of the people I know particularly well is a mother who lost three sons in the conflict. She met Sir Kenneth Bloomfield a number of years ago and feels that during the years her needs have not been met. I am hoping there is a more positive outlook on victims. Many are deeply insulted by the suggestion but some of our supposedly more sensible elected representatives have talked about a legacy of victims. The hurt and offence this causes to people like the woman about whom I am talking are very deep. I would like Ms Stone to give us some thoughts on this.

I was born in 1970 and last year was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD, which is probably fairly common in people of my age when one considers what we experienced in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. Mr. Peter McBride from the Northern Ireland Association for Mental Health, NIAMH, appeared before this committee last year. He is investigating how mental health and counselling services can be accessed. My constituency is Fermanagh-South Tyrone. In rural areas it can be very difficult to access counselling when one needs it. I would like Ms Stone's thoughts on this issue and how we can progress it to provide support for those who need it. We have people who are struggling with debt management and children at school. This is on top of what sometimes makes life very tough for people.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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I thank both delegates for coming. It is an awesome challenge that they must face and I have no words on how difficult it will be. The definition of "victim" was a contentious issue in the Haass report and Ms Stone said it was an issue the main political parties could not resolve. Therefore, she faces a question mark, which it is interesting to know. In her presentation she said, "I was heartened by the commitment to ensuring that victims and survivors have timely access to high-quality mental health services that focus on the often-complex psychological needs of individuals and families affected by the Troubles." Does the commissioner think the system will be able to deliver this?

Seán Conlan (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The fact that the commissioner highlighted the issue shows the importance of the job she does. That in 2014 she is highlighting the fact that there is no gold standard access to mental health facilities in the North shows there is a lot of work still to be done at that basic level to help people in the initial stages, even before we get to the other issues that need to be dealt with. It is very important work. The lack of access to mental health services in rural areas, an issue raised by Ms Gildernew , must be addressed at a fundamental level by the Government and it must be done immediately. I cannot believe it has not been adequately addressed. The fact that the commissioner has highlighted it in her presentation shows there is something very wrong with how victims have been dealt with thus far. This committee must explore further what we can do from our side of the Border. There are victims on both sides of the Border, not just in Northern Ireland. We had the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. These issues need to be addressed adequately. I wish the commissioner well in her work.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I will give Ms Stone and Mr. Beggs the final word. On the definition of "victim", I will cite as an example somebody not from Northern Ireland but who was intimidated outside it. This person was threatened back in the 1970s, told not to go back to Northern Ireland and has still not returned. There were no physical consequences or bereavement, but the family has had this hanging over them for the best part of 40 years and probably longer. Is there a conversation happening about how to deal with the silent victims of the conflict who do not fall into any particular category? There was no single event. Ms Margaret Irwin is present.

Justice for the Forgotten lists a figure of 160 victims outside of Northern Ireland, if I am citing the contributions correctly. Do these silent victims who suffered severe intimidation and threats fall into that category?

Ms Kathryn Stone:

I thank members for their interest, kind comments and support. When I accepted this role, I did not imagine that I would spend every day - it really is almost every day - meeting people who had been broken by what happened to them during the Troubles. They have been described as being shrunken by sorrow. Many members can recall or know people who have been physically shrunken by their experiences.

There is no doubt that acute and chronic mental health services are of paramount importance. Ms Gildernew, MP, bravely described her experience of being diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD, some considerable time after the conflict. One conclusion in a piece of research by the commission, a report entitled Troubled Consequences that is available on our website, is that it is a common thing for people to be diagnosed with PTSD and related mental health conditions as many as 20 years after the end of a period of conflict or events causing conflict. These are difficult experiences for people and inform the requirement to plan services carefully to respond to individuals' needs. I have often been reminded that these services must not just be located in city centres. Many people who live in rural areas, particularly along the Border, are profoundly affected in terms of their mental health, their emotional well being and their ability to create and sustain relationships with partners and their children. The transgenerational impact of these mental health conditions is also prevalent and is something on which we must act quickly. During the health presentation, it was mentioned that the population was getting older. Demography is against us. We must work to ensure that people have support.

We must also work quickly to ensure that those who are getting older have access to truth and justice that will help them in their later years. Frequently, I meet people who burn with the frustration of not knowing what happened to their loved ones and of not having the justice that everyone agrees they deserve.

I will address some of the points raised at this meeting. It is important to acknowledge that the review of the Victims and Survivors Service, VSS, has seen buy-in. The service's new board of directors has welcomed the independent assessment of the service and is looking forward to the report, as that will give the board a framework on which to improve and build on the service's foundation. It is not fair to say that the services being provided are inadequate. We must remember that many groups and voluntary organisations have been in existence, often for decades - Ms Margaret Urwin and Ms Bernadette Joly are examples of that - and provide not only emotional support but also practical support and advocacy throughout a justice process, however that might be defined.

I will try to explain how I came to be commissioner, where the commission sits into the Sir Kenneth Bloomfield report and what happened after that. He wrote a report, entitled We Will Remember Them, which was published in 1998. My understanding is that, afterwards, there was a hiatus followed by the appointment of a sole commissioner, Ms Bertha McDougall. It was quickly acknowledged that there needed to be other commissioners representative of different backgrounds. There was a period during which there were four commissioners, one of whom, Mr. Mike Nesbitt, left to follow a political career. When the terms of office of the remaining three commissioners ended I was recruited as a single commissioner.

In his report, Sir Kenneth Bloomfield described the role of a victims commissioner as a painful privilege. As I took up my post, I had no idea what he had meant by that. Eighteen months later, I understand exactly what he meant. My role is, indeed, a painful privilege. My work with victims and survivors inspires me and my team every day to ensure that victims get not only what we expect them to have, but also the services that they deserve.

Some time ago after a difficult and challenging meeting, one of the members of our victims forum sent me an e-mail thanking me for giving her a voice. I hope that by presenting to this committee, we have been able to give victims of the Troubles a voice and that members have understood what some of their primary concerns are. I thank the committee for affording us the opportunity to appear before it.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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We appreciate the attendance by Ms Stone and Mr. Beggs. Does the commission's remit cover someone who is a victim of the Troubles as a result of something that happened in the Six Counties but who is now domiciled outside them? If not, what advice would our guests give us for putting the individual in touch with other services? Is there a pathway for someone outside Northern Ireland?

Mr. John Beggs:

Certainly in terms of individuals. People have presented to the commissioner and received support and advice from same. Individuals can also present to the VSS and receive access to funding and services. However, a jurisdictional issue around group funding has been raised with the commission. We have received representations from groups outside Northern Ireland. Given those representations, we have reviewed our position and, as of this week, are finalising advice to the First and deputy First Ministers on giving access to groups outside Northern Ireland. I do not want to pre-empt the outcome but we have reviewed the representations and will make a strong recommendation. This will take account of the fact that there is an inconsistency between individuals and groups.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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In practical terms, if we have details of individuals domiciled outside the Six Counties, can we pass them on to the commission?

Ms Kathryn Stone:

Yes, of course.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I thank our guests. We will adjourn until Wednesday, 26 February, when we will meet the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade.