Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Wednesday, 29 January 2014

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform

Estimates for Public Services 2014
Vote 13 - Office of Public Works (Revised)

2:00 pm

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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No.1 is consideration of the Revised Estimate for the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform - 2014 Vote group. On 18 December 2013 the Dáil ordered the following Revised Estimate for public services to be referred to this committee for consideration: Vote 13 - Office of Public Works. I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brian Hayes, and his officials. The purpose of the meeting is to consider the Revised Estimate and the supplementary performance information on the outputs and impacts on programme expenditure. A draft timetable for the meeting has been circulated. Is it agreed to? Agreed. I invite the Minister of State to make his opening statement.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Property is the second highest administrative cost in the public service after pay and pensions. My office has been given the considerable task by the Government of rationalising the State's property portfolio so as to reduce that cost, as well as reflect the substantial fall in staffing numbers in the public service. The publication of the property asset management delivery plan, Accommodating Change – Measuring Success, in July last year was the culmination of the work led by the chairman of the Office of Public Works, OPW, Ms Clare McGrath, as the senior responsible owner in this area of property-related reform. I will shortly receive a report on the capacity of the OPW to deal with the new mandate given to it by the Government. What we are doing in the property space is genuinely reforming and new. By getting this right, big savings can be obtained for the taxpayer. This plan will challenge the silo mentality that has built up over many years. This new approach presents real opportunities for real savings by sharing assets, expertise and information across the public service.

From the State's perspective, we know office accommodation is one area where significant savings can be made. Ministers have already given their full commitment to ensuring their Departments and agencies co-operate fully. The plan will include setting targets for space allocation per full-time equivalent employee to be achieved by Departments. The drive to optimise office space will be enhanced and facilitated by statistical evidence setting out the full cost of accommodation borne by the State. The evidence will derive from the key performance indicators arising from the application of a standardised approach to facilities management to be adopted by public property managers. This will provide a basis on which to assess building performance and identify where improvements in space and energy efficiency can be achieved. In addition, a web-based mapping register of all State property is being developed for use by the public service as an information tool that will facilitate strategic decision-making.

On becoming Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW, a primary target of mine was to reduce rental payments for Civil Service accommodation below €100 million by 2015. I am glad to be able to inform the sub-committee that we are two years ahead of target, as last year the rent bill stood at €97.5 million. From a peak of €131 million in 2008 to a low of €97.5 million last year, progress is being made, as we are now back at 2002 levels of expenditure. Further progress can be made by adopting a whole-of-government approach. For the information of the sub-committee, of the 155 closed Garda stations, 40 are being sold, eight are being utilised by other State sector users and 13 have been handed over by way of a licence to community groups. This is an example of using surplus properties in a different way.

In the area of property maintenance, the OPW has assumed greater responsibility for the provision of this shared service for Departments. The funding and works relating to building maintenance of State property to the value of almost €20 million transferred to the OPW in 2013 and are now managed and performed by it. For the first time, this allows the OPW to prioritise funding on a whole-of-government basis. It also allows it to initiate a planned preventive maintenance works programme which in the medium term will produce savings and, more importantly, better care for the fabric of the State's buildings and an enhanced working environment.

As a result of centralising this service, an estimated 100 staff in various Departments who were previously looking after maintenance transactions are now freed up for other duties in their specific Departments. In 2013, €19.5 million was expended on this work and the committee will see that a similar amount is available in 2014, of which €2 million is ring-fenced to accelerate a preventive maintenance works programme on State-owned buildings.

While these reform measures have been ongoing, it is worth stating staffing levels in the OPW have reduced dramatically, from an authorised number of 2,208 in 2008 to 1,620 in 2014, a reduction of 588 staff or about 25% over a six year period. We have fewer staff and a vastly reduced capital budget but have taken on new roles, as set out in my presentation, enhancing the existing shared service function traditionally performed by the OPW. It is also worth highlighting to the committee the scale of the reduction in our capital budget over the same six year period. When the unitary payment for the national convention centre is taken out, our total capital budget across all subheads is €80 million, down from €400 million in 2008, which is quite a reduction.

In difficult times, the OPW continues to demonstrate its commitment to training and work placement programmes. The graduate architect and engineer programmes enhance the professional development of graduates while making a significant contribution to the work of the office. In addition, placements under the JobBridge scheme are providing practical skills for participants to enhance their future employment prospects. I am pleased to inform the committee that after an absence of some years, this year the OPW will reintroduce the apprenticeship programme. Some 20 places will be offered on the programme in areas such as stonemasonry and craft carpentry.

On the last occasion Ireland held the EU Presidency in 2004, the total was €110 million. I am pleased to inform the committee that the total cost for last year came to €42 million. It is clear that the Government's decision to centralise all conferences and events, some 245 in total, made a big difference in reducing costs. Dublin Castle and other historical properties under the care of the OPW, allied with the centralised event management service directed by the OPW, greatly helped in organising a very cost effective Presidency last year. The new state-of-the-art conference facility in Dublin Castle is a tremendous asset for future events and conferences that the State needs.

In respect of the 2014 Estimates before the committee, the OPW has responsibility for two main programmes within Vote 13 - flood risk management and estate portfolio management. The National Procurement Service has been transferred to the Office of Government Procurement and has already been reviewed by the committee under Vote 41.

In respect of flood risk management, one of the areas to which I have not yet referred is crucial to the life of the country. I would like to address briefly the matter of the severe storms in the Christmas and new year period and the resulting serious damage caused to public infrastructure. Initial estimates of the cost of the clean-up and the repair and restoration of public infrastructure were provided for the Government and are of the order of €65 million. Some €41 million, almost two thirds of the total estimate of €65 million, arises in the case of two counties, Clare and Galway, reflecting the severe impact of the storms along the west coast. Local co-ordination and delivery of clean-up and restoration works are being led by the local authorities. All Members of the Oireachtas owe a great debt of gratitude to our colleagues in local authorities who have been through a very difficult number of weeks given the scale of the storms, particularly in the west. We also owe a debt of gratitude to the emergency services and all those working day and night in very difficult circumstances. The OPW has responsibility for flood relief and written to every local authority to state we will receive applications for funding to assist them in their work to repair the damage to coastal flood protection structures.

Since 2009, the OPW has provided €23.8 million in funding for local authorities to carry out minor work schemes - schemes under €500,000. The partnerships established with the local authorities and the funding provided for them are a key element in maximising the capacity of the overall programme, with approximately 1,230 projects having been completed to date under the scheme.

Expenditure on capital flood relief works has been increased in recent years and we are now reaping the benefit of that investment in Dublin and towns such as Clonmel, Kilkenny, Mallow and Fermoy where schemes have been or are being carried out. Nine major flood relief schemes were completed in the past two years under the major capital programme in places such as Carlow, Clonmel, Mallow, Tullamore and Dublin on the River Dodder, a tidal scheme. This year will see the commencement of a further six major schemes at Templemore, Claregalway, Bandon, Skibbereen, Bray and south Dublin, with scheme completions at Fermoy, Ennis, Waterford and on the River Wad. Almost €370 million has been invested from 1995 to date in flood risk management measures which have protected 10,500 properties and delivered benefits estimated at over €1 billion in terms of damage and losses avoided. This is a very significant achievement by any measure.

The Government has committed €45 million per annum for flood risk management and mitigation measures for the period 2012-16 under its medium-term capital investment programme. Despite the fall-off in capital expenditure elsewhere, the OPW has prioritised this area of spending and an amount in the order of €100 million has been spent in 2012 and 2013, with the use of other savings achieved under the OPW Vote. A total of €45 million in capital expenditure has again been allocated in 2014. We have to prioritise our spending to make sure that on cost benefit grounds, the funding solves the problem for the greatest number of people, communities and businesses up and down the country.

On coastal erosion, an issue that has been brought to attention by many colleagues recently, we have to take a much more holistic view. Coastal erosion is a natural occurrence and we have to make sure in our planning and development that we do not repeat the mistakes made in the past and allow development in areas at risk of erosion. It is also worth noting that, in tandem with the management of flood risk, this investment programme is heavily labour-intensive and the investment will continue in future years to sustain significant employment numbers. Based on a Department of Finance report on labour intensity and infrastructure investment, it is estimated that the amount of money expended on flood relief activities has sustained up to 700 direct jobs and 300 indirect jobs in the past two years. These are all private sector jobs because the contracts are tendered for by the local authorities in the case of the minor works scheme.

The estate portfolio management programme is the other big aspect of the Vote and the largest of the two programmes, with an allocation of €312 million. This programme has many distinct parts, including €98 million for rental payments and €50 million for the maintenance spend to which I have referred.

Another significant part of the programme is heritage services involving the management of 760 national monuments and 30 national historic properties, with a combined provision of 70 visitor facilities. We need to do things differently in the heritage space. Since taking office, I have got a communities initiative scheme up and running. While 20 projects have community involvement, there is potential for many more. The First Free Wednesday of the Month initiative which I launched two years ago has helped to open up more of our great historical sites to the public and visitor numbers are up 6% year on year. I recently looked for interest in the private sector to see if we could enter partnerships on our existing sites which might improve footfall, while increasing employment opportunities. We received over 42 expressions of interest, with 13 serious proposals which are being considered by the OPW. I will soon launch a new scheme to allow members of the public to use designated historical sites for civil ceremonies. I secured agreement with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to reinvest additional receipts generated by the heritage services in the OPW. As an initial step, an additional €348,000 was generated in 2013 and provisionally allocated to the OPW in the Revised Estimates for 2014 to allow it to be reinvested in the heritage portfolio.

This money will go to areas in most need and, importantly, where capacity has been identified to generate increased business and receipts. The direct reinvestment of surplus receipts will create a strong incentive to increase activity at heritage sites and improve business opportunities.

Before I take questions, I remind members that the OPW also manages a range of services not funded directly from Vote 13. In 2013 it incurred expenditure on behalf of other Departments and State agencies amounting to €68 million. The main areas of expenditure were the urgent provision of schools for the Department of Education and Skills, the Irish Youth Justice Service facilities in Oberstown, the delivery of the Intreo programme for the Department of Social Protection and the leasing of accommodation on a repayment basis for numerous clients. As an organisation, we provide building, procurement and project management advice and assistance for Departments and State agencies.

I hope I have given a fair summation of our work. I am happy to take questions from members of the committee.

2:10 pm

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Does Deputy Mary Lou McDonald wish to make an opening statement before we proceed to examine specific subheads?

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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May I make a brief general comment?

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Sure.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I was not aware that the scale of staff reductions was 35% in the period under consideration.  I may ask the Minister of State for figures for the savings made.  I commend the OPW and its staff on doing an outstanding job.  It does not get nearly enough recognition for the work it does, especially given the level of staff reductions.

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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We will now examine the subheads in order.  We will begin with the administrative subheads, A.1 to A.7.  Programme A deals with flood risk management.  Subheads A.1 and A.2 deal with pay and non-pay administrative costs.  Subhead A.3 covers the purchase of engineering, plant and machinery, while subhead A.4 covers hydrometric and hydrological investigation and monitoring.  Subhead A.5 deals with flood risk management, while subhead A.6 covers drainage and maintenance.  Members may wish to refer to key outputs and targets, as well as impact indicators.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Minister of State to elaborate on his earlier comments on storm damage in order that I can be sure I understand him correctly. The estimate for damage is in the region of €65 million, with counties Clare and Galway accounting for the bulk of the cost, at €41 million. I understand the remedial process is being led by the local authorities and the Minister of State was right to acknowledge their efforts in difficult circumstances. How will the €65 million be provided?

In the course of his response I ask the Minister of State to refer to an old chestnut of mine, namely, insurance for houses in Dublin and elsewhere across the country which previously have been flooded. Many parts of my constituency such as East Wall have experienced flooding on numerous occasions and residents in these areas now find it impossible to insure their homes.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The €65 million figure is the assessment by local authorities of the cost of the damage. This is an initial assessment which the Government obtained two weeks ago. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, the lead Department, subsequently asked the local authorities to provide a clearer indication of what they might need, Department by Department. The OPW is one of the players in this matter, with the Departments of Transport, Tourism and Sport, Social Protection and Agriculture, Food and the Marine. We aim to get a fuller picture of the scale of damage in respect of the €65 million figure.

In respect of flooding, we have responsibility for a capital allocation of €45 million for major and minor schemes. My officials have written to local authority managers to provide more flexible arrangements for the minor works scheme. We have also given a commitment that we will prioritise applications from the worst affected counties. I visited County Clare last week to inspect works being carried out by the local authority. We are telling the local authorities to get on with the work and that we will recoup the money they spend afterwards in order to avoid bureaucratic slowness in getting money to the front line. To be frank, we will need more money and I indicated as much when I saw the severity of the storm damage. We will only be able to assess how much more we need once we have accurate information from the local authorities. It was encouraging to see that work had already started in County Clare when I visited last week. The priority is to repair flood defences that have been breached in case they are struck by further storms in the near future.

I have replied to the Deputy's questions on flood insurance on a number of occasions. I have prioritised this issue and hope to be in a position shortly to put before members a new memorandum of understanding between us and the Irish Insurance Federation, with which we have been in dialogue for the guts of one and a half years. I regret that it has taken so long to agree the memorandum which will represent an agreement between us and the federation based on where we determine capital should be invested and whether we achieve the 100 year standard. The 100 year standard is the basis on which insurers will reinsure communities. In the area to which the Deputy referred, there is no reason insurance should not be forthcoming. We have invested heavily in the area which managed to withstand the most recent storms. It is an example to the insurance industry of where the State has made the necessary investment and insurers should continue to reinsure people living there. I hope we will get the memorandum over the line at the earliest opportunity. It is not for the lack of trying that it has not yet been agreed. If we do get it over the line, it will represent a clear exchange of information on what we have done and the standard of engineering we have brought to the table. The federation will have an assurance that the work we have done is of a type that will allow it to offer insurance.

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I am glad to hear the Minister of State's comments. This issue arose during our discussion of last year's Estimate in terms of the daft situation where the OPW was spending massive amounts of money on remedial works but the insurance companies were using a geozoning process to assess risk. People living on Cathedral Road in Cork city, which is tens, if not hundreds, of feet above sea level, are unable to obtain flood insurance because they are geozoned. I suggested last year this matter be included in the targets. It is not currently listed, but it is a necessary target because it offers the added value of allowing households and businesses to obtain insurance. I recommend that it be an output target for 2014.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Chairman makes a fair point. In 2002, €60 million worth of damage was caused in Dublin as a consequence of flooding. We have since initiated two major schemes. Other than along the seafront in Clontarf, Dublin suffered limited damage in the most recent storms. Our investment has saved a considerable amount of money in flood repairs. We have similar plans for Cork, but these projects take time. We have to find a hydrological solution that will work. People often believe they can simply throw money at a solution, but it is no good unless it solves the problem. Community and local authority support is as crucial in Cork as it was in Dublin.

We need the same in Cork. We have a very major scheme we hope to get going very shortly.

2:20 pm

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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A key aspect of that memorandum of understanding is not just that major new or remedial works are done, but that part of that remedial work has a clause in it that there is ongoing monitoring and maintenance of the thing itself. As we discovered, in Douglas two years ago a particular type of sluice gate was installed but was not monitored, so when it got jammed it flooded the whole village. The insurance companies are right to say it is not good enough to do the work. One needs to oversee that they are operating. That needs to be a key performance indicator, that we put the works in but ensure the certainty it gives home owners, businesses and the industry is maintained by supervision.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister have a date for this memorandum of understanding?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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We are ready to go on this when they are.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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When the Irish Insurance Federation signs off on it, we will go live.

Photo of Dara MurphyDara Murphy (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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There are two elements. If the State puts significant money into projects that change flood risk to a 100 year probability of flooding, as has been mentioned, there are areas, certainly on the north side of Cork city, which, if they flood, means the rest of the city will be affected. Dublin Hill and Cathedral Road cannot get insurance. That is already an issue. On the memorandum of understanding, will it be zones, will there be compulsion and will individuals have some right to engage, either through public representatives or some other forum? Who will be able to interact with the memorandum of understanding? Will individual citizens be able to say what happens when Dublin Hill floods? How will it work in practice?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Irish Insurance Federation has a system whereby people who cannot get insurance can appeal that decision and see why-----

Photo of Dara MurphyDara Murphy (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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That is not working at all.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I fully agree with the Deputy. In our memorandum of understanding we hope that where we have done the work and put in the investment, for example, in Mallow, Kilkenny and Dublin, there is an understanding in the industry that a standard has been obtained. That has not happened thus far. An exchange of information between us and them will be the key in giving them the confidence to offer reinsurance in that area. The problem is, where we have not spent the money, it is difficult to hold out the hope that insurance will follow. That is why we have the catchment flood risk assessment and management, CFRAM, process, which is the wider scheme under which we are examining the flooding maps across the country and assessing on a river catchment area what needs to be done and how long it will take.

When I first came to the OPW and met engineers in Trim, I was told in very blunt terms that there were approximately 250 so-called hot spots throughout the country where tomorrow we could have very significant flooding damage. That has been fed into the CFRAM process, which we will present to Europe by the end of 2015. Then, for the first time ever, we will have an overview of how we will tackle this problem. If I had €3 billion tomorrow, we would get all the 250 hot spots done now, but I do not. We must prioritise, with the resources Government has given us on the capital side, to maximise effect. There are also examples where we are not waiting for CFRAM. We have examples where we have brought schemes forward because of the intensity of the situation that faces those communities. That is the case in Cork as well.

Photo of Dara MurphyDara Murphy (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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In Blackpool, yes.

Photo of Arthur SpringArthur Spring (Kerry North-West Limerick, Labour)
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Come over the mountains and move into Kerry for a second. I raised this one day in the House when we were given one minute and 36 seconds to raise the plight of a €20 million disaster on the coast of Kerry. It is the largest coastline in the country. Of the €68 million in additional funds outside the Estimate the Minister used last year, what percentage-----

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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That €68 million was used at the request of the local authorities to Government centrally.

Photo of Arthur SpringArthur Spring (Kerry North-West Limerick, Labour)
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What percentage of that was used for flood measures? The Minister of State has indicated that we need to spend some money on the damage that occurred at Christmas time. He is hoping to be on his way to Europe to learn about the European solidarity fund, and I wish him the best of luck with that. In the meantime, have we made an application to the European solidarity fund for places such as Kerry, particularly in light of the fact that a great deal of the coastline is, as it were, soft coastline, candidate special areas of conservation or sand dunes which have been damaged in the storms? Have we made an application and should that alleviate some of our funding problems after the storm damage?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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We have 100 days from the time of the storm to make an application to the solidarity fund. Given that the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government is the lead Department, it will make the application on behalf of the Government given the scale of the storm. After the last major storm event only €13 million was drawn down out of a scale of damages worth more than €150 million to €200 million. It is difficult to obtain this because one of the factors that militates against a bigger drawdown is the total level of economic damage that was caused within the framework of the solidarity fund. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government is examining that and when the full detail of the scale is known by the local authorities, it will decide that.

Last year, there were 58 minor flood works. I will get the Deputy the Kerry list later. A minor flood work application is up to €500,000. The local authority applies to us. It is a small-scale piece of work. We turn it around quickly. We have a cost-benefit model and if the benefit is merited, we grant it and the local authority contracts the work locally. We will get the breakdown of the €65 million. I think it may have been €23 million.

Photo of Arthur SpringArthur Spring (Kerry North-West Limerick, Labour)
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If the estimate for this year is up to €70 million for the recent storm, the Minister will need additional funds to the tune of €45 million.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Part of that €65 million was roads, public lighting, etc. Of the €65 million, roads accounted for €20 million, coastal damage €35 million and tourism projects €10 million. Those are the broad headings from the initial assessment. I was in Sligo recently looking at the coastal erosion caused. Whole beaches were removed by the storm. We must take a holistic approach to this. In some cases the engineers tell me a beach or a whole sand dune moves from one area to another, but over a period of years it comes back again. This is a rapidly changing area. The key responsibility we have is identifying the key public infrastructure that must be protected. These things will happen again.

Despite the level of funding which has come up in recent years, we have not put in the funding in the way other small countries with similar coastlines have done. We need to ramp up public expenditure and capital funding in this area. Our priorities are people, homes and businesses. While sand dunes are important, especially where there is rock armoury in place, we must prioritise those projects which can give maximum benefit. This is a very difficult issue for coastal communities where whole stretches of beach and coastal areas have been affected, but our key priorities must be people, homes and businesses, and we will continue with that.

Photo of Stephen DonnellyStephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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I apologise that I am not up to date on exactly where the conversation went. I was at a different committee. Arklow suffered much damage and the people there are asking for rock armour. Is there a list of the places? Is there somewhere I can go to find out if Arklow is included? If not, is it possible there might be another round of funding in the year to cover beaches that have not been chosen?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The local authority has the information and it submitted the total amount it seeks. The funds are allocated by way of the applications the local authorities make to us. If Arklow thinks it has a viable application and it is under €500,000, it will apply to us.

We will then turn it around under the minor works scheme. Before the Deputy came in, I made the point to the committee that we changed the terms this year to make it easier for the local authorities to draw down those funds, especially following the storms.

The Deputy mentioned Arklow. I have visited the town and there is a bigger issue. A major scheme is required there. We are looking at that as part of the CFRAM. The issue in Arklow is tidal and fluvial. A high tide and very substantial rainfall at the same time cause significant difficulties for Arklow because the bridge capacity cannot produce the outflow. As the applications come in from Wicklow County Council, we will turn them around.

2:30 pm

Photo of Stephen DonnellyStephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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Is Arklow included in the amount we are voting on today for the beaches?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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We are voting on the global amount, €45 million, for flood relief measures. Wicklow County Council will apply to us for all kinds of things within that €45 million.

Photo of Stephen DonnellyStephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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It is not yet allocated.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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We can only allocate when the local authorities apply. In fairness to local authorities, as I saw in County Clare last week, they have been hit by this big storm and have been in emergency planning mode. They are now submitting the applications to my Department and others. As we get those applications, we will prioritise based on the worst affected counties to ensure we can turn them around.

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I will allow Deputy Ó Cuív to contribute briefly before we move to the next session because we have a timetable for the meeting.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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How much of the €44.2 million has been allocated to projects? A whole new set of flooding issues have arisen this year that I presume would not have been taken into account when the first Estimate was given in October. It would not have been possible. How much of this is allocated to projects and how much is available for new flooding? How much of the damage from the recent flooding pertains to areas under the OPW's remit and how much pertains to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and so on? Coastal fences are normally the responsibility of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine or have been in most cases. Where is the dividing line here? What will the OPW be funding to address the recent damage?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Some €33 million of the €45 million is contractually committed this year, which is not unusual. Many of these big schemes would be carried out over a two to three year window. The drawdown would very much depend on how the contract is governed. In my speech I set out the major capital programmes where we will see progress this year. It is a rolling programme and, as the Deputy knows from his time in government, some of these projects can take some years. Some €33 million of the €45 million is contractually committed. We will need to wait and see if that is the amount actually drawn down on each of those schemes.

The Deputy asked the fundamental question of where our responsibility lies. Under the Arterial Drainage Act 1945 we are responsible for all arterial drainage schemes. That is our responsibility. I was in County Clare and saw a scheme in the Shannon Estuary which we had been maintaining. Because they had been maintained by us, the lands for the farmers were of a very good quality. In the areas that fell under the Land Commission, however, as the Deputy would know, there had been significant breaches. That water is still there and making it impossible for the farmers to get any kind of yield. I understand that more than 200 km of Land Commission embankments throughout the country - especially in the west - are funded by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I understand there is still a Land Commission and I believe its funding for maintenance is quite low. If tomorrow morning the Minister, Deputy Howlin, gave me funding of €220 million, we could resolve all those problems at one level, but we would have to maintain them, so it is a wider responsibility.

Technically, we are only responsible for the arterial drainage schemes and, of course, where we have made a major capital investment in recent years, we would take responsibility for maintaining those. They include the bigger ones in Kilkenny, Clonmel and other parts of the country.

What was the Deputy's third question?

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Most of the flooding in 2009 was inland in places such as Claregalway and Clonmel - all the usual suspects. That is clearly the responsibility of the OPW. I compliment the Office of Public Works on the fantastic work done in Claregalway. More work remains to be done and I believe it is part of the contract. From what I have seen on the ground, the OPW seems to have relatively little to do to address the damage caused by the recent storms because it is mostly along the coast and not in rivers. Much of it relates to sea walls, the tail end of roads, piers, etc. Would I be right in thinking that funding to address that damage will not come from the OPW budget but from the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and so on?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Also the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government or the OPW co-ordinating the joint approach on this?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The co-ordination is through the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, which is the lead Department. I believe I gave the information to the committee before the Deputy came in.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise. I was at-----

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I will go through it again. The initial estimate from the worst affected counties is that €65 million is the scale of the damage. That breaks down as follows: €20 million for roads under the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, €35 million on coastal, and €10 million on tourism. Within the coastal a large proportion would be marine and harbour related which we do not fund. We have responsibility for flood defences. In answer to a question from Deputy McDonald, I outlined that we would need more money. However, that is across the Government and especially in the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. We cannot be specific on the total extra amount because we do not have the detailed assessment at this stage.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The interdepartmental nature of this has made it difficult for us to get a handle on it. From the previous experience of this happening, money will be needed. For example the OPW is still working on preventative measures arising from the 2009 events. The most urgent thing is to provide the money upfront and quickly. By the time tenders are processed and the work done, much of the cost will not fall into this financial year but into next year. With marine works in particular, by the time the tender process is complete and contractors are on site, we could be into 2015. We need to get the process in place and moving fast. I hope that money would be put on the table. I would rather see modest money now to get this year's work done than waiting forever for a huge deluxe plan that will take years to do and, in the meantime, people find it difficult to access basic services, including houses. There is a danger of further erosion occurring that could be much more expensive. The stitch in time saves nine principle applies, and we have already lost a month.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I made the point to Deputy McDonald that the Government does not want to see any bickering between central government and local government. Last week I saw in Quilty, County Clare, that the local authority is getting on with the task. We have advised it to do the work and that we would reimburse the funding. If local authorities put in funds, there is no reason they cannot get on with the task of doing the work, patching up the stuff that needs to be patched up as soon as possible and we will refund them as the applications come through.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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They would claim-----

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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We have had enough of this now and I must move on to the next heading.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Just very briefly-----

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Deputy Ó Cuív, you are finished.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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OPW crews have been working with local authorities throughout the west in places where we have that responsibility. I was in Foynes last week. The Shannon Foynes Port Company spent more than €100,000 in the past two weeks to address a serious situation that arose there. Private companies, the OPW and local authorities all have responsibility. A lot is happening and I do not want people to have the perception that the Government is in any way slowing down. We need to see the works taking place as soon as possible.

I have already stated it is my view that we will need more funding in this area, but we do not want to see slowness in making these decisions.

2:40 pm

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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We will move on to programme B - estate portfolio management. I will take the subheads as follows: B.1 and B.2 - administration, pay and non-pay, respectively; B.3 - President's household staff; B.4 - grants for certain refurbishment works; B.5 - purchase of sites and buildings; B.6 - new works, alternations and additions; B.7 - property maintenance and supplies; B.8 - rents, etc.; B.9 - fuel, electricity and water; B.10 - unitary payments; B.11 - heritage services; B.12 - Government publication services; B.13, EU Presidency. I will also take any matter relating to key outputs, output targets, context and impact indicators.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister of State give some detail of the spend on consultancy services, value for money and policy reviews, the figure from last year and the projected spend this year?

For my own curiosity, the Minister of State might enlighten us on the size of the President's household staff complement. It is pure nosiness on my part and I am asking because I do not know and it caught my attention on the list.

I understand responsibility for Garda stations was transferred to the OPW last year. Will the Minister of State provide an update on the process for their prospective sale and the position on the return of stations for community use?

There is controversy - one of many - in Balbriggan about the library. There is a proposal to move the library to Gallen Mills to make way for the opening of an Intreo office. Has Fingal County Council been in touch with the OPW in that regard? Local people are agitated about the issue.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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On the latter issue, the Deputy is correct. There is a good deal of controversy locally surrounding the library. Often I describe the Department as the classic shared service facility across government. The Deputy is correct in saying the OPW does not get the praise it deserves. I suspect this is because it is not represented around the Cabinet table. In this key piece of work, a key part of the labour activation measures to establish 53 or 54 Intreo offices by the end of the year, we have been doing a lot of work for the Department of Social Protection in ensuring we will have these new spaces with modern offices to help people in the provision of social protection and dealing with labour activation issues.

The case to which the Deputy refers in Balbriggan has been brought to my attention. I have spoken to Deputies Ryan and Farrell, as well as the Minister for Health, about the issue, and we are working to find a solution. We have also been in touch with Fingal County Council and I think we have an alternative site which will allow the library to remain in place. This is important for people to hear. It is an old Carnegie library to which they are attached and we are looking to see whether we can resolve the issue with the local authority by finding an alternative site. I think we can do this, while keeping to the programme and ensuring Balbriggan will have its new Intreo office. I congratulate colleagues on the project management side on the work done in the provision of Intreo offices. We stated we would have 42 open by 31 December last year and we accomplished this. Great credit is due to the team within the OPW for doing that piece of work.

On the consultancy side, my understanding is the total sum last year was €13,315 for two pieces of work - one was the provision of internal audit services within the organisation, while the other was in respect of ISO architectural services. They cost approximately €5,000 and €7,000, respectively. Consultancy services that are of a professional or technical nature form an integral part of an infrastructural scheme works programme or project on the construction side. Out of the total budget last year, €13,000 was the spend on consultancy services.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What is the projected figure for this year?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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It is €47,000 in total for the continuation of these two projects.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is the money specifically earmarked for their continuation?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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There is one other piece of consultancy work. The Deputy will be aware that the Government asked us to lead on the property management aspect of the public sector reform plan and we launched our proposals last July. It is under the auspices of the OPW. As I mentioned, we are carrying out a review of capacity within the OPW. We will have the report shortly and it will obviously fall part of this year's Estimate. The review is being undertaken by an outside group which is looking at the organisation to identify whether we have all the necessary staff in place to achieve a whole-of-government approach to property management. It is a big undertaking. From the savings I have identified, we can see the big potential benefit. As I stated, this is the second biggest cost outside pay and pensions and we must get it right. The total cost of that piece of work will be over €100,000.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What about Garda stations?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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As I stated, 155 Garda stations throughout the country have been closed for operational reasons. We take responsibility in maintaining the Garda stations and for the capital budget concerned. Since the Government took the decision on the 155 stations, eight have been retained for alternative State use. The HSE, in one case, and the Ambulance Service, in another, have taken them over and are reconfiguring them to meet their needs. A total of 40 are up for disposal on the open market because they are assets and of some value which we will try to extract for the State. A total of 13 have been assigned for community use. The other day I visited Cliffony, County Sligo, where I was able to hand over the Garda station to a local community group for community use. This is something I have led. There is much potential to assign for further use where a station is of good quality. One does not want to hand over old decrepit buildings which communities would have to maintain. A total of 94 others are under consideration for future use. The more we can get into community hands the better because it reduces the cost to the State of maintenance and security of the buildings. We have seen some innovative proposals coming from communities to take on these stations and the more applications, the better. In some cases, communities applied to us, but then when they realised the obligations they would be taking on in terms of the lease, stepped back from it. There is, however, potential for further growth.

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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There is one in my constituency, at Elizabeth Fort, which was recently handed over to Cork City Council. It is an excellent example of how the buildings will be used in the future. It will become a major feature.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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We are giving buildings back all over the country.

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Under the energy heading and the maintenance programme, what retrofitting or energy reduction programme is in place to get the OPW more in line on the better energy ratings of public buildings? What is the plan this year in that regard?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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With the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, I will shortly be launching the optimising power at work scheme which introduces in public buildings many of the soft measures that can help to generate greater energy efficiencies, including campaigns to turn off lights. One often hears an argument that real savings are obtained by providing deep retrofit systems in buildings, but the evidence shows that many of the minor works schemes which involve changing attitudes and behaviour lead to the making of big savings. The annual energy saving targets for the scheme are: 8% in year one, 13% in year two and 18% in year three. The OPW will lead the campaign. Much of the work will be done by private sector tenderers, but the funding is coming from the Minister, Deputy Pat Rabbitte's Department in respect of buildings over which we have control. We are trying to ensure greater oversight of other public buildings. We are trying to become involved in hospitals to extend the work we have been doing in this regard.

The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform recently provided funding of €9 million over three years from the carbon levy fund for the optimising power at work scheme. The full roll-out of this successful programme is targeted at buildings in the wider public sector. We will spend €2.5 million under the scheme this year and members can expect an announcement in this regard very shortly.

2:50 pm

Photo of Stephen DonnellyStephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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I have a procedural question about these Estimates. My understanding was that we had already discussed the main Estimates, these being revisions thereto. In other words, the main Estimates, dealing with the large allocations of moneys, have already been voted through. Am I wrong in this and are we concerned today with voting through the total spend for 2014?

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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We are dealing with the full allocation today. The Houses will vote on the Estimates, not the sub-committee.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The sub-committee will make a recommendation.

Photo of Stephen DonnellyStephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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I appreciate the clarification, but it is still not entirely clear to me precisely what we are about. I understand there is a €2 million increase in the allocation for the OPW in the Revised Estimates. Has the sub-committee already discussed the main Estimates and are we concerned only with the revisions today?

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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We are considering the total allocation.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The additional allocation of €2.5 million is as a result of the carbon levy. We received an additional allocation at the end of last year for the Kilmainham Gaol project, a 2016 project we have been asked to lead. The difference in reckoning between December 2013 and now is quite small, in the order of €4.5 million.

Photo of Stephen DonnellyStephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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To be absolutely clear, the total allocation of €354 million, an increase on the original figure of €352 million, has not been discussed heretofore by the sub-committee?

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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The Finance Bill determines expenditure for the forthcoming year. Thereafter, each Department gives an Estimate under specific headings of the expected expenditure in particular areas. These moneys cannot be spent without sanction from the Oireachtas. The Estimates may be revised later in the year and, again, must be voted through by the Oireachtas. What we are doing is setting up the footprint for expenditure by the OPW in 2014.

Photo of Stephen DonnellyStephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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We have not discussed the overall Estimate of €354 million with the Minister of State.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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No. My understanding is that this meeting would normally happen in December. We were happy to come before the sub-committee at that time but could not get a slot.

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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That is correct.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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It is usually done in December because the Estimates relate to expenditure for the following year.

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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To clarify, because the budget took place earlier in the year, there is a certain amount of adjustment to be done to accommodate the Estimates process into the future. In the case of all the other line Departments which present to the sub-committee, everything was dealt with before Christmas. The delay in dealing with these Votes is simply a question of sequencing.

Photo of Stephen DonnellyStephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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My next question sounds like it is loaded, but is not meant to be. Is this the first occasion on which we are discussing the 2014 OPW spend, after it has been voted through by the Oireachtas?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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These Estimates have not been voted through by the Oireachtas. That will happen after their consideration by the sub-committee.

Photo of Stephen DonnellyStephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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That clarification is helpful.

The Minister of State has been pushing for improvements in public sector procurement. Will he indicate what quantum of savings the OPW has managed to achieve by moving to better practice in procurement?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The national procurement service originally came under the OPW, before the Government took a decision to establish an independent Office of Government Procurement under the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Expenditure in this regard would in the past have come under our Vote, particularly on the staffing side. Now, however, it comes from the allocation for the new office within the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. My understanding is that this particular area of expenditure has already being brought before the sub-committee as part of the Department's Vote.

Photo of Stephen DonnellyStephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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My question is not how much it costs to engage in procurement but what savings are we seeing as a consequence of following better practice in this regard. In the areas we are discussing such as procurement of materials, goods and services for building schools, Garda stations and so on, what quantum of savings has been achieved by way of improved procurement practice?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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There are several examples in this regard. We are now working with the Department of Education and Skills in procuring sites for schools. Another example is that previously every Department looked after its own maintenance. We have been asked to take on that €20 million budget and do the work ourselves, which has released more than 100 people back into Departments because they are no longer engaged in transactions with us. Another benefit is that it allows us greater control in terms of prioritisation. A Department might have been happy, for instance, to buy carpets and wallpaper, but we are more interested in roofs and windows. As I outlined, the largest saving this year is in the rent bill. We are two years ahead of budget in getting it under €100 million - it is now €97.5 million where previously it was €135 million. This was achieved by getting out of leases, making sure we moved people up in the bed in terms of requirements in respect of public buildings and that where we were using these facilities, we were getting maximum use out of the space available. These are some of the savings that have been achieved as a result of the actions we took in the past year.

Photo of Stephen DonnellyStephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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Does the Minister of State have an overall figure for savings achieved?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Accenture report which is in the public domain indicated a tag of €5 million on the procurement side. If I recall correctly, the total sum earmarked for this year is €127 million, of which we would make up a part. I will get the exact figure for the Deputy.

Photo of Stephen DonnellyStephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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My final question relates to Garda stations.

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I remind the Deputy that we are under pressures of time.

Photo of Stephen DonnellyStephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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I will be brief. I have been informed by various gardaí, sergeants in particular, around the country that they are very frustrated at the prices they are being forced to pay by the OPW, as they claim, for the upgrade of stations. I do not have data in this regard; it is all anecdotal evidence. To give an example, one sergeant told me that when he needed to have a room in the barracks painted, the OPW stated the price would be €700 or so, whereas it could be done locally for €150. Is it the case that Garda sergeants, or whoever is in control of local budgets, are not allowed to tender locally?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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If the Deputy has information in this regard, he should give it to me and we will examine it. Talk is cheap in our system and I have heard all types of story. By centralising the system, we can extract substantial savings and ensure funding is prioritised in accordance with the allocation we receive. We are spending €19.5 million this year on maintenance, which includes Garda stations.

On the capital side, there is an impression that the decision on which Garda stations are rebuilt, extended and so on is a matter for the OPW. In fact, that list comes from the Garda Commissioner and is drawn up by his property and maintenance people. They prioritise what they want to do; we allow them to make the decisions and then do the work for them. We do not have a huge cohort of staff involved in this work. We have contractor lists and a lot of the money is spent in the real economy. Many of the jobs involved are small. Contractors on the list tender for work and we cannot just pick and choose the winners. Where there is a piece of work that is any way substantial in nature, we want people to tender for it. If there is a specific case the Deputy would like to bring to my attention, I will be happy to look into it.

Photo of Regina DohertyRegina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I add my voice to the earlier comments in praise of the OPW. The office is a silent winner, quietly and methodically going about its work. It has a huge impact on citizens' daily lives but does not get the recognition it deserves. I take the opportunity to thank the Minister of State and his staff and wish them well for the future.

I have two questions. The Minister of State may have already answered the first of them in so far as a report may be forthcoming. However, will he indicate the number of empty buildings that are either owned by the OPW or being leased or rented by it? What is the cost relating to these buildings and what are the plans to sell those in the ownership of the OPW, repurpose or transfer them to various Departments or State agencies for their use?

My second question relates to subhead B.11 and the additional €348,000 derived from revenues from heritage sites last year which is to be spent this year. That money is extremely welcome. I wish to be parochial. The Minister of State referred to investing in order to increase activity and improve business opportunities. I ask him to give specific consideration to the Hill of Tara in this regard. The interpretative and visitor centre at the site is closed for more months each year than it is open, which is a terrible shame. Some 800 people visited the site on New Year's Eve, a day on which it is supposed to be closed. There was nobody present to talk to these individuals and the church and interpretative and visitor centre were closed. As a result, they could not watch the video that is usually shown at the church, which is a crying shame. It would cost very little to open the site more often. The facilities are already in place and all that would be necessary is an investment in staff. In the context of one of the largest and most cherished heritage sites in the country, will the Minister of State consider extending the period for which the interpretative and visitor centre opens during the year?

3:00 pm

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I have visited the centre at Tara. Obviously, the site is the responsibility of the OPW. An audio-visual system has been put in place by it in the church on the Hill of Tara. The Deputy makes a fair point in that the site is not open to the public for many months of the year. The coffee shop on the site which is run by a gentleman whom I met some years ago does substantial business.

Photo of Regina DohertyRegina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Yes, it does great business.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The office was involved in discussions with him to see if an arrangement could be arrived at whereby he might take responsibility for opening and closing the church. I can revisit that matter. The Deputy makes a fair point, namely, that the money we invest must be used. We spent a substantial sum of money on restoring the ramparts at Elizabeth Fort in the Chairman's constituency.

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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It was €5.5 million.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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There is a terrific view of Cork city from the fort, but no one was able to access the ramparts in recent years. That was crazy and I, therefore, took the decision in the light of the excellent work it did to hand over the site to Cork City Council in order that it might make a go of it. The OPW no longer has sufficient staff to allow it to operate all of these sites throughout the country. We must consider innovative approaches. In that context, I have an open mind when it comes to allowing private sector companies as external service providers to run heritage sites. If the State does not have the money to run these sites and good protocols are put in place, there is no reason such companies cannot become involved. We will re-examine the position on the site at Tara. I discussed this matter with colleagues some years ago and I am sorry that progress has not been made.

The OPW does not have any vacant leased property on its books. That is largely because we are getting out of this sector and trying to ensure the public buildings we do own will be utilised in a much better way. A completely new attitude will be required in this regard. We have already got rid of 48 State agencies and there are a further 15 to go. The remaining agencies do not all need their own buildings. We must be much more creative in how we use space. As I demonstrated, there are major savings to be made by withdrawing from the property sector. As far as I am concerned, we will not be taking out long-term leases in the future, rather we will use our existing space in a different and better way.

Photo of Regina DohertyRegina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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That is very good. Are there buildings owned by the OPW that are empty?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, the 155 Garda stations that have been closed are State-owned. As stated, we will sell them, where it is possible to do so.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The major subhead is B.8 - rents. The amount involved is increasing from €97.4 million to €108 million. Will the Minister of State outline the reason for this?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The outturn was different and, as the Deputy would know from his time in-----

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Why will the outturn for this year not be the same?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I understand it is just a matter of timing as to when it was produced.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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No, the estimate was €97.4 million in 2013. The estimate for this year is €108.352 million. That is an increase of-----

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The reason for the increase is that we may be obliged to take on some of the leases from other agencies such as those relating to FÁS. A decision in that regard has not yet been made, but we are making provision to cover that eventuality.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is it a case of like for like? Is the Minister of State saying the amount will decrease again?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Yes. When the Deputy was in government, the OPW was spending €135 million. We are now in government and spending €97.5 million.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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What was the total saving on rents resulting from the decentralisation programme? I understand the programme allowed for extremely expensive leases in Dublin to be surrendered in favour of much cheaper for either loaned or rented buildings in locations outside the capital. What was the total saving resulting from the programme which, as the Minister of State rightly points out, was introduced by the previous Government?

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I can obtain figures for the Deputy in that regard. We disposed of a substantial number of properties in Dublin as part of the decentralisation programme. The difficulty was not so much that this property was disposed of at the top of the market but rather that announcements were made on the towns and cities to which Departments and offices were going to be decentralised and, as a result, the price of property in these locations increased exponentially. If one is going to buy something, one does not broadcast one's intentions before doing so because that would not make sense. That was the critical policy error made during the era in question. The Government has changed the policy.

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I will take a final question from Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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This is a debate on the Estimates.

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I am aware of that, but we are running over time.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but I am here representing-----

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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The Deputy was late arriving. I ask him to pose his final question immediately or else I will take no further contributions from him.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I seem to be treated differently from others.

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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No, the Deputy is treated in the same way. I tend to treat everyone equally and badly.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Chairman is a dictator.

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Does Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív wish to continue?

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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No, I will leave it at that.

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I thank the Minister of State and his officials for assisting the select sub-committee in its consideration of the Revised Estimate for the OPW. For the information of members, the meeting of the joint committee will take place in approximately 15 minutes.