David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The meeting will proceed. The meeting has been convened to allow the select committee to consider the Revised Estimates for Vote 20 - Garda Síochána, Vote 21 - prisons, Vote 22 - the Courts Service, Vote 23 - the Property Registration Authority, Vote 24 – the Department of Justice and Equality. A briefing has been circulated to Members. I welcome the Minister, Deputy Shatter, and his officials.

We will begin with a brief opening statement from the Minister, followed by comments and questions from Members. With the agreement of Members, I suggest that we stick with the Votes and deal with them one at a time, in sequence, and that we focus on the Votes. While it might be attractive to do so I urge Members not to deviate from the issues at hand, namely, the Votes and nothing else.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Chairman, for the suggestion that none of us should be devious. That is a positive start to the morning.

I welcome the opportunity to meet with the committee as it considers the 2014 Revised Estimates for my Department’s group of Votes, which were published in December. My earlier than usual appearance before the committee in relation to the 2014 Estimates has come about due to the rationalisation of the budgetary arrangements which aims to ensure that the Estimates are published prior to the commencement of the financial year rather than within the year to which they refer. This is following through on the Government’s commitment to Dáil reform and is also consistent with the timelines for the budgetary process in other EU member states.

In summary, there has not been a significant difference to the budgetary figures published on budget day in October, other than the inclusion of an amount of €23 million in the justice and equality Vote in respect of Magdalen-related payments; an increased provision of €2 million in respect of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission; and an increased capital allocation of €2 million in the courts Vote for the establishment of the new court of appeal.

I am particularly pleased that additional provision is being made for each of the three important areas in question and I will elaborate more when dealing with the individual Votes later. I am pleased that a gross provision of more than €2.184 billion is available to the five votes in the justice sector for 2014 and, as in previous years, this allocation will be managed to ensure that optimum value is obtained right across the sector and any necessary reprioritisation of resources will take place as the year unfolds.

A gross allocation of €380.5 million is available to the justice and equality Vote, broken down into six separate programmes. The range of programmes includes services towards maintaining a secure Ireland, working for safe communities, organisations which facilitate the provision and administration of justice, the equality and integration area, representing Ireland’s interests abroad and contributing to economic recovery. Even within the programmes the range of subheads is very broad.

If we take programme A as an example, the budget for areas such as INIS, the Criminal Assets Bureau and services administered by the youth justice service, including funding for Garda youth diversion projects and young persons’ probation projects, are all included in this particular programme.

I am pleased that I have been able to maintain funding for the programmes administered by the youth justice service to provide a deterrent to young people getting involved in the insidious spiral of criminal activity. In all, it is estimated that more than 5,000 young people will come in contact with Garda youth diversion projects in 2014. It is important to point out that the projects continue to focus and engage high-risk young people with more intensive interventions.

The reviews of the scheme continually point to their effectiveness and I am determined, in so far as it is possible, that I will continue to maintain current levels of funding in this area.
Facilitating the provision and administration of justice in Programme C contains a significant allocation of €23 million for Magdalen-related payments. As I have said previously, one of my priorities since taking up office as Minister for Justice and Equality has been to address the hurt felt by women who were in Magdalen laundries. As a result we have had the McAleese report documenting the facts about Magdalen laundries and the Quirke report on the establishment of an ex gratia scheme and a comprehensive range of supports for the women involved. The provision of this quantum of funding for 2014 will ensure the lump sum payments can be made to the women in question as soon as possible. A formal letter of offer of what they will receive under the scheme has issued to more than 270 women at this stage. As soon as the offers are accepted, payment will follow at an early date. By the end of this month, payments will actually have issued to more than 100 applicants totalling €3.5 million. In the meantime, processing and verification work on other applications will continue with a view to an assessment of what they will receive under the scheme being notified to each of the women as soon as possible.
Members may recollect from when I appeared before them on a technical supplementary estimate for the Department of Justice and Equality Vote in November that I reallocated an additional €7.3 million to the subhead dealing with the payment of compensation awards for personal injuries criminally inflicted. I am pleased to say that almost all this allocation was spent in 2013 and it has practically cleared the backlog in awards which had built up. This situation arose mainly due to a number of significant awards of compensation that had been made in recent years and had placed great strain on the scheme. While the allocation from this cash-limited scheme is back to standard levels for 2014 the fact we are going into the year with the backlog almost eliminated is a very positive development.
I am also particularly pleased there is an increase of €2 million, which is 45%, in the grant-in-aid allocation for the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission in 2014. This delivers a very specific commitment I made to ensure appropriate funding was allocated to the new body. It is important to recognise the commission is not simply the sum of the two existing organisations. The upcoming legislation underpinning the establishment of the organisation will give it a number of enhanced functions, which are designed, in accordance with Government policy, to deliver a world class human rights and equality service. The additional funding demonstrates the Government’s commitment in this area and will enable the new organisation to develop its remit in a structured and co-ordinated manner from the outset.
Before moving off the Department of Justice and Equality Vote it should be noted that practically all of the planned staffing resources and structures are now in place for the Insolvency Service, under the contribute to economic recovery subhead in Programme F, and it is very much open for business. This is an outstanding achievement considering the relevant legislation was only enacted a little over a year ago and the service was only formally established last March. I compliment those within the Insolvency Service of Ireland and in the wider Department who have facilitated the establishment of this office. There was always going to be a lead-in time, before demand for the service ramped up to expected levels. I am confident this service will play a very strong role in dealing with the legacy of considerable personal debt which has built up largely as a consequence of the economic crash and will act as a springboard to a better economic future for many hard-pressed individuals in our society.
The largest part of the budget for justice goes to An Garda Síochána, at almost €1.344 billion in gross terms in 2014. The pay and superannuation component amounts to 87% of the gross allocation. The Commissioner has approximately 13,100 members of An Garda Síochána plus 1,165 Garda Reserve members available to him to provide a policing service. An additional 99 men and women are in training for the Garda Reserve. Approximately 2,100 civilian staff provide essential support services in An Garda Síochána.
The response to the recent Garda recruitment campaign has been very welcome. The Public Appointments Service has commenced processing the applications so the successful candidates will be able to enter the Garda College as new recruits later this year. Following the first 32 weeks of tuition, there will be a further 72 weeks of on the job experiential learning. On conclusion of these two years of training, the Garda member will be awarded a BA in Applied Policing. This development is particularly welcome as the last recruits entered the Garda College in Templemore in May 2009, after which the moratorium on public service recruitment was put in place.
All Garda Vote expenditure is accounted for under one programme, which is working with communities to protect and serve, and the various output targets for 2013 and 2014 reflect this goal. Targets relating to safety in communities, through enhanced visibility, engagement and communication are not just aspirations; they are real objectives happening on the ground every day. They complement other core objectives such as reductions in violent crime, increased detection rates and the targeting and disruption of organised crime groups. Garda operations are structured to achieve these objectives.
Revised rostering arrangements now ensure gardaí are on duty when needed most by the communities they serve. The rationalisation of Garda stations means more gardaí are freed up from routine administrative work and available and visible in the community at times of greatest need.
The most recently published CSO crime statistics for the end of the third quarter in 2013 reflect a continued reduction in most crime categories, and a total reduction of more than 17,500 crimes over the previous 12 month period. These statistics underline the positive impact the Garda is having on crime and the success of the Commissioner's strategy to maximise the use of resources with intelligent and targeted deployment. It is important and right I congratulate the Commissioner and the Garda on their achievements in this context. It is regrettable they do not get wider publication. I do not believe the public realises or understands the reduction in the instances of crime and the very substantial successes the Garda has achieved. Unfortunately, media attention tends to be on other issues. A reduction in crime providing greater safety in communities is of maximum importance and of very particular interest to all who reside throughout the country.
Recent operations such as Operation Stilts, which is an ongoing covert operation targeting anti-social behaviour and drug-related crime in Dublin city centre locations, is an example of such focused Garda activity which is making a difference. In this context also, I am pleased to note that many of the crimes which affect quality of life in the community were also down in the latest figures, including public order offences, down 7,159 or 15.9%.
It is particularly noticeable that the targeted operations by An Garda Síochána throughout the country, such as Operation Fiacla, are particularly successful in tackling property crime. At the end of December 2013, Operation Fiacla had led to the arrests of 7,610 persons, and to 4,342 persons being charged under the operation. The continued impact of these and other Garda operations on burglary is reflected in a significant decrease of 10.4% in this category of offence, further accelerating the reductions seen since earlier this year. Instances of robbery have decreased by 5.2% from 2,861 to 2,713.
I am also pleased that despite the continuing difficult financial backdrop to the Estimates I am able to maintain what I consider the very necessary investment in the Garda transport fleet. Including the €4 million provided for Garda transport purchases in 2014, there will have been €18 million spent on the Garda fleet in the period from 2012 to 2014. This means 651 vehicles will have been purchased in the period from 2012 to 2013 period with additional purchases to be made from the further €4 million available for the fleet in 2014. The corresponding figure for the previous three-year period from 2009 to 2011 was less than €5 million with 217 vehicles purchased.
Turning now to prisons, a gross expenditure budget of €324.5 million is being provided for the prisons Vote in 2014. This expenditure is provided under one all-encompassing programme which encapsulates the essence of the Prison Service, which is to provide safe and secure custody, dignity of care and rehabilitation to prisoners for safer communities.
Members of the committee will be aware the contract to build a new modern prison on the site of the existing Cork Prison was recently signed. It is expected that construction of the new prison in Cork will be completed by the end of 2015. The refurbishment and modernisation work in Mountjoy Prison is continuing and on completion of the Mountjoy D wing refurbishment this year all cells in Mountjoy Prison will have in-cell sanitation services. I can well remember a time when I was informed by one of my predecessors that to achieve this would be completely impossible.
Projects such as these are examples of the Government delivering on its commitment in the programme for Government for the modernisation of the prison estate and the elimination of slopping out.

In all, the prisons building capital budget is €28.5 million in 2014, including €2.4 million in the carry-over of an unspent amount from 2013. It is important to add that there is considerable economic benefit to expenditure of this scale in the broader community, particularly in the construction sector in the context of the creation of jobs and economic activity of an indirect nature that derives from those jobs in the areas in which construction work is taking place.
Needless to say, the building and refurbishment of prisons, while very necessary to provide a more humane environment for everyone in the service, is only part of the multifaceted approach to the reform and development of the service. The community return programme has been a really positive development. As well as allowing prisoners to complete their sentence by way of performing a service to the community, the programme has significantly helped these prisoners to successfully resettle in their communities. The national roll-out of the programme saw the establishment of a new co-located unit based in the Probation Service headquarters, including an official from the Irish Prison Service. This is a new departure for both services. I believe this joined-up thinking and joined-up approach to be of particular importance. This unit now manages the community return programme nationally and has taken on responsibility for the co-ordination of several local interagency projects in Dublin, Cork and Limerick. This enhanced integration between both services is the realisation of the commitment in the programme for Government to ensure better co-ordination in order to create and integrate offender management programmes.
In addition to community return, the unlocking community alternatives scheme, UCAS, and the community support scheme have been set up in both Cork and Mountjoy prisons in an attempt to address the recidivism levels of those serving sentences of less than 12 months from those catchment areas. The UCAS and community support scheme groups comprise a number of prison-based personnel representing the discipline grades and therapeutic services, as well as community support workers based in the community. The groups engage with prisoners shortly after committal and seek to identify risk factors, make appropriate referrals and prepare a sentence management plan in each case. The primary aim of these schemes is to reduce the current recidivism rates by arranging for additional support structures and providing for a more structured form of temporary release. These are pilot schemes and will be reviewed in 12 months in order to assess whether they have had a positive impact on re-offending rates. It is particularly important that we continually look at and examine what we are doing to ensure that, in the context of those who are serving prison sentences, there are positive steps taken to try to reduce the level of re-offending. That is of benefit, particularly to the wider community as well as to those who have offended in the past.
The incentivised regimes policy provides for a differentiation of privileges between prisoners according to their level of engagement with services and quality of behaviour. The objective is to provide tangible incentives to prisoners to participate in structured activities and to reinforce incentives for good behaviour, leading to a safer and more secure environment. The indications are that the policy is working well. Earlier this month, 59% of prisoners had earned the privilege of being on the enhanced regime, 38% were on the standard regime and 3% on the basic level.
The changes to the way in which the service operates have been brought about largely under the Irish Prison Service, IPS, transformation programme. This has included the development and implementation of new working practices, together with a review of all tasks, posts, staffing levels and processes in the prisons, greater use of technology and greater interagency co-operation within the justice sector to deliver cross-agency efficiencies. A vital step in the reform process is the introduction of a new grade to replace the current grade of prison clerk. The clerks will be redeployed to positions more suitable to their skill sets and training and will be replaced by the new grade of prison administration and support officer, PASO. I am informed that in the region of 108 PASO grades have commenced working in the IPS since late 2013.
There is some way to go in improving the conditions in our prisons, but significant progress continues to be made. Large infrastructural building projects are being complemented by improved processes and ways of operating, together with measures for more effective management of persons committed to prisons. I want to pay tribute to the governors in each of our prisons for the jobs they are doing, to all of our prison staff and to the co-operation from the representative body of prison officers, which has always constructively engaged in seeking to facilitate and advance the reform projects that are being implemented.
The gross budget allocated to the courts Vote in 2014 is €104.565 million. There is also an appropriation-in-aid allocation of €46.535 million, of which €42.493 million relates to fees for various categories of courts transactions. All expenditure in the courts Vote is directed towards one key programme, that is, managing the courts and supporting the Judiciary.
Despite the challenging budgetary environment and reduced staff numbers, I am pleased that there has been an increase in scheduled court sittings in each of the years 2012 and 2013. The number of scheduled sittings has increased from 20,462 in 2011 to 23,700 in 2013. Allied to this, various measures have been put in place to reduce waiting times. These include initiatives taken by the President and judges of the High Court, including list management measures in Dublin and in respect of certain provincial personal injury lists in order to reduce the number of older cases in the lists and improve waiting times. In addition, the President of the High Court arranged that judges were available during the month of September to hear actions in personal injury, family law and commercial list matters and common law motions. A significant number of additional sittings were held in all court jurisdictions during 2013, with 20 additional sitting weeks in the High Court, 80 additional sitting weeks in the Circuit Court, over 500 special sittings of the District Court and September sittings in both the Supreme Court and the Court of Criminal Appeal. These measures are particularly welcome and are contributing in no small way to the overall reform initiatives in place to bring about a more efficient Courts Service.
Various other reforms continue to be progressed, including the combined court office project, which effectively means that offices for all levels of courts have been combined in 23 counties, leading to a much more effective use of resources. In fact, there are only two provincial offices, those being, Tralee and Wicklow, where administrative operations remain to be combined. These will be completed in early 2014.
It is important also to acknowledge that the establishment of the Insolvency Service has had an impact on the Courts Service. During 2013, the official assignee in bankruptcy and the staff of the office transferred from the Courts Service to the Insolvency Service of Ireland. A number of other posts have been filled in the Courts Service to support the introduction of insolvency functions in the Circuit Court jurisdiction.
Preparations are already under way within the Courts Service for the establishment of the Court of Appeal following the constitutional referendum last autumn. As previously mentioned, a sum of €2 million is provided for the capital infrastructure necessary to get the court in place later this year. Other related operational and staffing requirements are also being considered by the Courts Service. I expect the new court will deal with most cases that are currently dealt with by the Supreme Court, thus reducing that court's workload and allowing it to focus on the development of the law. The need for a Court of Appeal arises mainly from the ongoing significant backlog of cases before the Supreme Court and the consequent long delays in cases being dealt with by that court. The impact of the establishment of the Court of Appeal should be obvious in terms of reductions in delays once it is established and becomes operational.
The Property Registration Authority, PRA, has a net budgetary provision of €30.108 million in the current year. Apart from payroll costs, the other main areas of expenditure include the maintenance of information technology and the development of new systems on which the PRA is heavily dependent for improved efficiency and quality customer service. A total of €1.545 million, being 5% of the gross allocation for 2014, has been provided for ICT-related expenditure. A provision of €3 million, being 10% of its allocation, is for payments to Ordnance Survey Ireland, the State mapping agency, for the supply, licensing and usage of mapping data.
Registration of applications for changes on existing registered titles is the main area of work for the PRA. In 2013, in excess of 177,000 registrations were completed. This level of activity resulted in over 500,000 changes being recorded on the Land Registry. As a result of the investment in technology, the PRA has developed extensive online services, which are available immediately over the Internet via the landdirect.ieservice. During 2013, over 2 million searching and certification transactions were processed through the landdirect.ieportal.

The modernisation programme engaged in by the PRA has provided a very detailed database of property ownership and related information. This has been a powerful enabler in facilitating the organisation to assist other Departments and agencies in the delivery of Government policy in a value for money manner. Thus, for example, the PRA is able to provide advanced spatial information for the National Roads Authority’s national motorway programme, input for a number of the Environment Protection Agency’s regulatory projects, and information to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government on the implementation of EU directives. It is also working with the Office of Public Works in establishing a register of State property.

Members will appreciate there are many other activities in which the Department of Justice and Equality is engaged. Were I to detail all of them and each item to which funding is allocated in this submission, I would still be speaking in two hours. I have merely touched on some of the central issues of relevance. However, I am happy to address any issues arising.

The total Estimate for the justice sector in 2014 is €2.184 billion in gross terms and almost €1.961 billion in net terms. As I have set out, it covers five Votes and a broad range of areas within the justice and equality sector.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his comprehensive overview of the Revised Estimates for the Department of Justice and Equality. I also thank his officials for the information provided by them to the committee in advance of this meeting.

As suggested at the commencement of the meeting, it is proposed to go through the subheads in order. As such, I ask members to ask their questions under the relevant subhead, when reached. We will deal first with Vote 20 in respect of An Garda Síochána, the total Estimate for which is €1.344 billion. The first subhead deals with salaries, wages and allowances, the total Estimate for which is €863,000. I invite members who have questions on subhead A1 to ask them now.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Minister, you will be aware-----

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy must speak through the Chair and not directly to the Minister.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I ask that the Chairman ensure the Minister, when replying, also speaks through the Chair.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I will. The discussion is more focused if conducted in that manner.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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As long as that applies in both directions, I am happy.

On the requirement that numbers in respect of the Garda force should not fall below 13,000, is the Minister confident we will have 13,000 qualified gardaí? Also, is he aware of the ongoing commentary by the Garda Representative Association not only nationally but regionally? In my county of Donegal, the GRA representative made very alarming statements recently regarding the inability of the Garda Síochána to deal with crime in that region. Has the Minister met recently with the GRA about its concerns in this regard?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I note what the Deputy says. I find continually depressing claims made by the GRA regarding the incapacity of the Garda Síochána to deal with issues of crime. It would be appropriate for it to, on some occasions, acknowledge the enormous success of the force and its own members. I have detailed some of those successes this morning. As a representative body, the GRA has an important role to play. However, it generates a misconception on the part of the public as to the capacity, expertise and successes of the force and contributes to public alarm by making people unnecessarily concerned about the capabilities of the force.

For some time we have had a continuous stream of information, objectively provided by the Central Statistics Office and not subject to any political interference of any description and which could not be validly challenged by any Deputy, which indicates there has been a substantial reduction in crime. The figure in this regard for the most recent 12 month period for which we have statistics is 17,500. There have been reductions across 12 of the 14 categories, and where there have been increases, these have been very small. I believe people should be responsible. This applies to individuals and organisations when addressing this issue. I have full confidence in the Garda Commissioner and his leadership and the steps being taken with regard to addressing issues of criminality, which requires a targeted approach as opposed to a generalised approach. The targeted approach of the force with regard to identifying particular areas of crime, those who are suspected of engaging in crime, the prevention of crime and speedy arrest of individuals who have committed serious crimes is clear evidence of this.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps the Minister would address the Deputy's specific question in regard to Garda numbers.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I am coming to that. The Deputy also asked about the GRA's commentary, which I think we need to address. We all know that regardless of how many members of the force we have or how efficient the force, there will always be bad people who do bad things and who commit crime. It is important we keep this in perspective because for an individual who is the victim of a crime, particularly a personalised crime such as a burglary or assault, it is a profound and terrifying event in their life. It is important for the sake of the peace of mind of people in the general community that these crimes are not exaggerated. In comparison with most other countries, our level of crime is very low. We should not denigrate or in any way undermine or cause loss of public confidence in the capacity of the force.

As I stated, the objective strength of the Garda force is 13,000. I do not wish to see that strength fall below 13,000. The Commissioner and I are at one in this regard. I had hoped it would have proved possible to commence the recruitment campaign a little earlier than was the case. I do not wish to engage with anybody here. However, all Deputies are aware that issues arising on the public pay side and the negotiation of the arrangements now in place took a considerable period to work through during the first half of 2013. Until the Haddington Road agreement was in place, I was not in a position to move forward on the issue of Garda recruitment. Had the representative bodies taken a different approach and engaged at the time of Croke Park II - I do not want to fight an old battle because I welcome their engagement on the Haddington Road agreement - I would have been in a position to commence a recruitment campaign earlier. I was not in a position to deal with that issue until the issue of where the State finances stood had been addressed and until my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Howlin, was in a position to sanction my proceeding with the recruitment campaign. He was not in a position to do that.

Deputies will note that shortly after the putting in place of the Haddington Road agreement, I announced the recruitment campaign. We now have 13,100 gardaí in the force. I do not know how many members of the force may retire during the course of this year. Various estimates in this regard have been provided. However, estimates provided in the past have proved wrong. We are proceeding as rapidly as we can with the recruitment campaign. I expect the first batch of recruits to enter Templemore in July. If the Public Appointments Service can deal more quickly with matters, they will enter a little earlier. Some 25,000 applications were received. This matter is being dealt with by a completely objective service in a considered and appropriate manner. It has to work its way through a large volume of applications, and in that regard it has a process to go through. I expect we will have a minimum of 300 new recruits entering Templemore in 2014.

I expect they may enter in two different groupings, with an initial and a second group. The second group will not wait for the graduation of the first group as the college is gearing up to be able to deal with matters in that way. Those numbers may change and there could be a somewhat larger number. I cannot say with certainty that the numbers within the force during the course of this year will not fall below the 13,000 figure because of the timeframe involved in processing recruitment and the 32-week course to be taken. If it does fall below that figure, very rapidly in 2015 the figure should be restored. With the new system, after the 32 weeks the trainee gardaí get their badges and can engage in community policing and other policing duties. They will still operate under supervision, and it is a better system than keeping them, in effect, in Templemore for a lengthy period.

If the issues I mentioned had been resolved earlier in 2013, we would have started a little earlier in Templemore. That is the position. I have the greatest confidence that the Garda can continue its focused work under the Garda Commissioner's leadership.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Is the Deputy satisfied with the answer?

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I am not satisfied by the content but the question has been answered.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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You have the information. Does Deputy Niall Collins have a question on this section?

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has just spoken about the recruitment campaign and he has indicated there will be 300 recruits in two batches. Will the ongoing recruitment campaign, which has seen in excess of 25,000 applications, have a panel? How long will the panel remain in existence for people to be recruited? The Minister indicated there will be 300 recruits for 2014 but what numbers are envisaged for 2015 and 2016?

With regard to payroll, the estimate has dropped from €948 million to €863 million. What is the underlying head count for that figure? The Haddington Road agreement will have something to do with the reduction. The Minister has indicated he does not know the projected number of retirements this year but how is that factored in? We had this debate on the Supplementary Estimate at the end of last year and we examined how An Garda Síochána does its manpower or resource planning while meeting objectives in the annual policing plan. Will we return at the end of the year with a Supplementary Estimate for pay for serving members of An Garda Síochána?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for the first question as it is important we address the issue. I keep reading newspaper reports that 25,000 people have applied and we are only recruiting 300 people, but that is not right. There will be a panel arising from the applications made. This is not a once-off and I hope we are getting to a position where we can stabilise matters. As the Deputy knows, prior to 2009 it would have been the norm for a certain number to be recruited to the Garda every 12 or 18 months, with a panel existing for a period following advertisement. It is envisaged that at the end of this process, apart from the recruits I hope will enter Templemore this year, a panel will be created. It is my hope and intention that from that panel there will be further recruits entering Templemore in 2015.

It is a little previous to speak about numbers in that context as the numbers given for recruitment this year are approximate; the numbers could vary because of a range of considerations that could arise. As we come into the latter part of 2014 we will consider what may be necessary in the 2015 context. I hope the perception generated that 25,000 people are applying for only 300 or 350 places has been counteracted. That information is not correct and a panel will be created.

The Deputy asked how long the panel will remain in existence. We have not made a final decision on the period that the panel will exist. We will make the decision at some point. I am open to correction from my officials but my recollection is that panels were created without a particular announcement made on the length of life that a panel would have. People would be recruited from the panel and after a certain period had elapsed and when it seemed reasonable, matters would be advertised for new applicants and a new panel would be created. Being on the panel does not guarantee an individual that he or she would enter Templemore. The chances would depend on the number of people on the panel and where the person featured.

Financial figures are influenced by the Haddington Road agreement and the changes effected by it. This is not an exact science and I do not have a crystal ball, so I cannot predict with certainty how many members of the force will retire this year, required overtime, special events that need special security arrangements or emergencies. There is a range of issues that make this part of the Estimates a very inexact science. We have set out where matters stand in the context of the Estimates. I recall last year the Deputy and I had a exchange on the issue. I do not know if it generated from this type of meeting or an exchange on Question Time but there were all kinds of interesting newspaper headlines to the effect that we would run out of money to pay the Garda by the autumn. Even some of the Garda representative bodies were saying that. There is no question of running out of money to pay the gardaí. We have Estimates and they are our best guess or assessment as to where we are. There is a range of imponderable and unidentifiable circumstances that could arise and produce a variance.

Should it be necessary to provide for a Supplementary Estimate, we can do so; the Deputy knows this as we did so recently, and a proportion of what was required came out of savings from other parts of my Department's Estimates. I cannot predict this with absolute certainty but I hope we will not enter into another public exchange and that we will not find incorrect media headlines of an alarmist nature, suggesting that members of the force may towards the end of the year not get paid. It is not an issue and there was never a question of that. I hope what was said about that last year has established the untruth in that issue, and I hope we will not see it appear again on the horizon.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I have a question about the 2,100 civilian staff. To what extent are gardaí involved in operational duties being freed up by the work done by these civilian staff? To what degree are operational gardaí still doing administrative work and desk jobs?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I remind members we have many subheads to cover so I want people to be as brief as possible.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I will offer a brief reply. The work done by the administrative staff is now freeing up members of the force. I do not have an immediate statistic for the Deputy of the number of other members of the force who could be freed if we recruited more civilian staff. From my knowledge of visiting Garda stations I know there is still work done by members of the force that could be done by civilian staff if it were possible to recruit additional individuals to the civilian side. There is no funding available to expand in that way. In the years to come there would be benefits to be gained by bringing in additional civilian staff and freeing uniformed members to a greater extent.

Substantial progress has been made in that context.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. I ask Members to make brief comments and remind them that we are dealing with subhead A1.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Does the Garda youth diversion project come under that subhead?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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No, it does not and is listed further on. If the Deputy looks at the literature she will see that subhead A1 deals with salaries, wages and allowances and that is all.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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If everyone is happy with that then I shall move on to subhead A2 - travel and subsistence. There is a small change in the Estimate, a decrease from €14.755 million down to €14.483 million. Does any Member have a question or comment on the matter? No.

The next part of A2 deals with training and development and incidental expenses. Again, a small change has been made. Are there any questions or comments?

A2 - postal and communications services. The cost has hardly changed. Are there any questions? No.

A2 - office equipment and external IT services which decreased from €21 million down to €19 million. Are there any questions or comments? No.

The next item is maintenance of Garda premises. Presumably the big change in the cost is due to OPW involvement. It changed from €1.7 million down to €721,000. Are there any questions or comments?

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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It was proposed to establish a network of Garda clinics and the Minister wrote to me on the matter because I raised it on Question Time.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The subhead deals with the maintenance of current Garda premises and not anything else.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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My question is related to the matter.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is stretching his query.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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We had a debate on the closure of Garda stations located on Garda premises. Is there a financial provision or subhead dedicated to the provision of a replacement service such as a mobile Garda clinic, satellite clinic or whatever one wishes to call them?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Any policing initiative of an operational nature that the Garda Commissioner wishes to take is a matter for the Garda Commissioner in this context. I do know that in some communities there have been arrangements made for gardaí to be available in local community centres in areas in which stations have been closed. There was not a necessity for any specific subhead that comes under the general Garda Vote and is a matter of deployment of personnel which would come under the Garda Commissioner and those working under him. Some of these issues, of course, will be addressed locally by the chief superintendent or superintendent in determining what are the local needs.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The next subhead is A2 - consultancy services and value for money and policy reviews. The cost has increased from €160,000 to €261,000. Are there any questions or comments? No.

The next item is station services and the range of areas paid for include utility charges, cleaning and medical charges. Again, there has been a slight reduction in costs. Is everyone happy with the matter? Okay.

The amount for Garda Reserves has decreased from €1.05 million to €895,000. Are there any comments or questions on the matter? No.

The cost of the EU Presidency does not arise in the Estimates because our term is over.

The next item is clothing accessories. Again, there has been a change and I refer to the cost of uniforms and accessories supplied to member of the Force. Any questions or comments? No.

There is no change in the cost for St. Paul's Garda Medical Aid Society. Are there any questions? No.

The cost of transport has decreased from €33 million down to €26 million and includes vehicle maintenance, fuel and other costs.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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I have a question on the provision of transport which an issue that is raised with all Members when we meet members of the Garda Síochána who serve in our constituencies and around the country. Is there a minimum or standard provision of transport in each Garda district or division? I know that we need a fleet of vehicles. Is there a fleet management policy? Last week I was told that a district the size of County Louth in my constituency was down to one car. It is the old chestnut that one cannot have a car at every crossroad and one cannot have gardaí at every crossroads. We all live in the real world in that regard. In terms of a fleet management policy what is the minimum acceptable standard in terms of the provision of transport in each district? I accept that one must differentiate between urban and rural districts.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Again, it is a matter for the Commissioner to determine the allocation of new vehicles. I can tell the Deputy that there is no shortage of new vehicles. If the Deputy had visited, I suspect, the Garda headquarters in Phoenix Park this morning he would have seen a number of vehicles waiting to go out. A substantial number of vehicles were purchased towards the end of the year and they get fitted out for specific Garda requirements. They are allocated based on operational need by the Commissioner.

I cannot comment on the position in the district that the Deputy mentioned. If there is a need for a new or additional vehicle there then I expect that is something that has been communicated by the chief superintendent to Garda headquarters. There is a very substantial number of new vehicles being distributed. I think Deputy Finian McGrath was not here yet when we dealt with this matter. I detailed the numbers of new vehicles that have been acquired, the additional €4 million available this year for the purchase of new vehicles. It is an unprecedented number in a very short period of time despite the financial difficulties that exist. I would hope, Deputy Collins, that there is not a difficulty in the district he referenced. It may well be the case that they are about to be the recipients of some of the vehicles that were acquired at the end of December this year. I do not know the detail of that.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I ask members to address their questions through the Chair.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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It is reasonable for the Minister to say that he does not have the actual details for the district level. Perhaps he or his officials can revert to us with what is, within the fleet management policy of the Garda Síochána, the minimum acceptable transport provision and to confirm whether it is detailed in the policing plan.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I think, through the Chair, the answer is it depends on the operational requirements in the individual district. I do not think there is an overall plan that designates how many vehicles one must have per head of population or per number of gardaí within an area. I think it depends on the operational needs within the particular area and they are very carefully assessed.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I call on Deputy Finian McGrath and I remind him that we are discussing transport.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I have a short question for the Minister. When did the additional €4 million kick in and have an impact on vehicles? I hear, particularly on the northside of Dublin, regular complaints from gardaí that transport, vehicles and cars is an issue. Is the extra €4 million coming onstream? Should it have had an impact by now?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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No, Deputy. It is not just coming onstream. The €4 million has not yet come on stream because €5 million came onstream between October and December of 2013.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Okay.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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That €5 million, as I have said earlier, was fully spent in the acquisition of vehicles. Those vehicles are in the course of currently being fitted out and distributed to the various districts. On top of that, there is a further €4 million.

I would have previously mentioned that there has been very substantial investment in the Garda fleet. In effect there has been €18 million, which is an unprecedented sum in a short period of time, spent on the Garda fleet in the period 2012 to the end of 2014. That means that 651 vehicles have been purchased in the 2012-13 period. There will be additional purchases to be made this year out of the €4 million. To give the Deputy an insight regarding the corresponding figure for the previous three years, the 2009-11 period. Compared with the €18 million that has been spent in this three year period, there was less than €5 million spent and only 217 vehicles purchased. The problem with the decrease in the number of vehicles derived from the very small numbers that were required during what was a period of financial difficulty. I am not blaming a previous government but it was during a period of major financial difficulty. When we came in we saw that there was these difficulties. It was not something that I could start addressing until 2012. I inherited my predecessor's 2011 budget. There would be very substantial numbers of cars acquired. They are currently, as I know, being allocated based on operational need and during the course of this year there will be further vehicles required.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I would like to know where all of these vehicles are disappearing to on the northside of Dublin.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps we can supply that information to the Deputy.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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It is a regular complaint being made by gardaí. They have told me that they do not have enough cars and the constituents have told me that the gardaí have told them that they cannot assist due a shortage of cars.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister can get back to the Deputy on that.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I would love to know who is telling porkies.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Can I ask the Minister about the fit-out of cars?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I want to reply to the Deputy on that point. I do not come into this committee and tell porkies.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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No, I said I wanted to know who was telling porkies.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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From a religious perspective, porkies are the last things I would be tempted by.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Can we get back to the Estimates?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I will withdraw my remark.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The temptation was too much.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I did not think the Minister was so sensitive.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I promise the Chairman we will not ham it up any more than that.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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As the Minister is not beefing up his figures, let us talk about the cost of fitting out cars. I understand it is quite expensive. Can the Minister give us a typical sum to fit out a typical Garda car?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I do not have that figure but I can have it communicated to the Chairman. It depends on the model of the car - they are not all cars - and the nature of the vehicle. It can be anything between €3,000 and €5,000 but I will confirm it to the committee.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We will move onto subhead A6, dealing with communications and other equipment. Are there the questions on it? No. Are there questions on the subhead dealing with aircraft?

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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As the Chairman knows, the committee had the opportunity to visit Baldonnel and was impressed at the professionalism and calibre of our personnel. There is a budgetary roller coaster of hours and financial allocation. I got the sense the helicopters are vital. It was an education for me because I thought of it as concerning pursuit of vehicles. We think of TV news images of the pursuit of a driver by the Garda Síochána but helicopters are critical to policing support. Is the Minister looking at this area? Has there been dialogue with the support unit? Is there a need to provide more resources? Has the Minister talked to the Garda Commissioner? We get the sense that the service plays a critical role in the pursuit of criminals. It can identify a person hidden in a hedge through heatseeking technology.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I join the Deputy in paying tribute to the personnel there. They play an important role. It is a matter for the Garda Commissioner when to deploy that part of the service based on operational assessments. There are occasions when it is required and other times when it is not. It is a broader issue in the context of the overall policing strategy. The question is how best to use the capabilities we have within the resources available. That is a matter for the judgment of the Garda Commissioner. I admire and appreciate the work the unit does. I have visited it and I am aware of its capabilities and the backup and assistance it provides to members of the force on the ground. It is ultimately a matter for the Garda Commissioner when to deploy the unit in terms of the type of activity required and the issues that arise.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Looking at the budget, the figure is heading down every year and my concern is that sometimes the Garda Commissioner will be minded by his budget. Unless criminality and the pursuit of criminal gangs has reduced dramatically, it strikes me that the unit is not getting enough resources allocated as a vital backup. It is a precious resource to the Garda Síochána in combating criminality, particularly in dangerous pursuit situations.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The benefit of being Minister in two different Departments is the connectivity with the defence side and the Garda Síochána on this side. The Deputy is looking at maintenance expenditure and a substantial amount of that expenditure is taken up on the defence side. When we come to the defence Vote, some of it deals with the Garda Síochána helicopter service, although it may not be identified as such. The Department of Defence and the Air Corps maintain the fixed wing aircraft. Some additional maintenance arises. There is connectivity between the two and there is not an issue of reducing the moneys available for maintenance so that the helicopters are used less frequently. Safety is the predetermined and most important criterion and maintenance is crucial to the safety of those who are using the helicopter.

This is not really an issue because the expertise in the defence side means joined-up thinking is going on. Instead of being dealt with in a piecemeal fashion, with separate maintenance contracts, it is dealt with in a manner that is financially efficient.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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That may be the case, but it concerns maintenance figures. Where are the figures for hours? I have seen some data about the hours the helicopters are deployed. There is no doubt there has been a reduction in the number of hours the helicopters are deployed. Perhaps the Minister can examine the area and discuss it with the Commissioner and the unit. It may be that, for operational reasons, it was genuinely not required and I am happy if that is the case but I have a concern that the decision is a budgetary rather than an operational one. That would be unfortunate in terms of supporting the Garda Síochána on the ground.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I note the Deputy's concern and I appreciate his comments.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Does the sum of €1 million refer to maintenance?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We will move onto the next subhead, concerning superannuation, and then onto witnesses' expenses. There is no change in the Estimate from last year. The compensation subhead provides for the payment of compensation by the Garda Síochána for civil actions taken against members of the force. It has changed from €18 million to €16 million. Are there any comments on these? No. There is no change in the witness security from last year to this year in the Estimate. The total is €1,343 million.

Subhead B involves the appropriations-in-aid and there is a slight change. Are there any final comments before we leave the debate on the Garda Síochána?

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Penalty points are the order of the day in so many committees. Is the contract accounted for in the Vote of the Department itself?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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What is the Deputy talking about?

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The receipts for the contract.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Page 12 refers to safety cameras and certain receipts from fixed charges. Is that what the Deputy is talking about?

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, I am looking at the book of Revised Estimates. What is the figure for the provision of the contract service?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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For what?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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GoSafe.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Is it in Vote 20?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Looking under appropriations-in-aid, safety cameras are listed along with certain receipts from fixed charges. What normally happens is that we assess how much comes in, the cost of it all and it is dealt with in a readjustment at the end of the year because it cannot be predicted.

One assesses how much comes in, what is the cost of it all and then it is dealt with in a readjustment at end of year because one cannot predict it all.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We will move on to the prisons which is Vote 21 and will start with subhead A1 which concerns salaries, wages and allowances. Again, there is a slight change and I invite questions and comments from members.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Through the Chair, I have a broad question which I think fits under this subhead. As the Minister knows, our committee worked very hard on putting forward proposals for penal reform, about which we are very proud. We made five key recommendations. The Chairman launched our report and the launch was very well attended. If those recommendations were implemented, particularly with regard to de-carceration of one third over ten years and using community service alternatives to incarceration, it would greatly help. It would be better for society, which is the most important point, but it would also very much help to reduce this budget. I ask the Minister to give his opinion on that.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I have said it before but am happy to repeat again that I very much appreciate the work done by the committee in this area. The report produced was excellent. It followed along the route of the reforms that we want to implement. Some of the issues I referenced earlier were also referenced in the committee's report and are ones which the committee was very anxious we address. I appreciate the support of the committee for the community return programme that is in place. I also appreciate the committee's support for the increased use of community service orders, which is very important. The committee's report fed into work that is going on in my Department currently. A departmental committee, with some outside representatives on it, is looking at the areas of punishment and re-offending and I expect it to report to me by Easter. The original intention was that the committee would report by Christmas but there were some additional issues that the committee wanted to consider and I felt it was better that it had additional time and comprehensively covered every issue it wished to cover, rather than cutting the process short. This committee's very excellent report fed into that process but that is not delaying what I describe as the reform process because as is clear from the outline I gave in my opening comments, there is a revolution going on with regard to the manner in which we are approaching and dealing with prison issues, offenders and recidivism. There has been enormous change effected, not just in the context of the structure of our prisons, but also the manner in which prison officers are deployed; the extent to which we are trying to increase the number of organisations involved, on a communal basis, with former prisoners; the integrated plan which we now have between the prison and probation services, which did not exist previously; the engagement of the probation service with prisoners at an earlier stage, pending release; and the incentivised programme that I mentioned and that is improving behaviour within our prisons. Under the latter programme, if prisoners behave well and participate in various programmes, they see an immediate benefit in terms of what is available to them within the prison service. All of this is part of an overall major reform plan to completely change the manner in which we approach things.

There are three issues that are of enormous importance to the public. The first is that those who have committed serious crimes pay the penalty and fully serve their sentences. The second is that the wider community feels that the penalties that can be imposed will have some deterrent impact. The third is that once people have been punished, be that through the use of community service orders, incarceration or been given assistance, such as in tackling alcohol and drug addiction, that there is not a repeat of offences previously committed. We have to reduce our level of recidivism in the interests of the broader community. I very much appreciate the high level of support from this committee and across both Houses of the Oireachtas, from all sides, for this very constructive approach. The committee's report was of great value and I will be very happy when we have the final work-out of what we will add to the new strategy, hopefully at the end of April, to make it available to the committee. I look forward to hearing the committee's views on it. Members will see that the work they did on their report has contributed very positively to it. It will set an additional road-map for where we travel in the years to come.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Does anybody else want to comment on subhead A1? No. We will now move on to subhead A2, travel and subsistence, which is more or less the same. The next one is incidental expenses, for which there is a slight reduction. The next item is post and communication services, for which there is no change. The next item is office and external IT services, for which there is a slight change. Is everyone okay with those? The next item is consultancy, value-for-money and policy reviews, for which there is no change. The next item is buildings and equipment, for which there is an increase. Does Deputy Kenny wish to comment on something?

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Yes, going back to the two-hour visit to Mountjoy Prison.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Which subhead is the Deputy speaking to?

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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A3, buildings and equipment. Going back to the committee's visit to Mountjoy Prison. During that visit, we saw that in-cell sanitation was being provided in cells on a number of wings but a number of other wings had not been completed. Can the Minister tell us if that work has progressed further and what stage-----

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister addressed that in his initial opening remarks.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I seek clarification on that and would like to know when we will end this terrible practice of prisoners having to slop out. To what extent has the in-cell sanitation programme progressed?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Minister to be brief because he has covered this issue already.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The in-cell sanitation programme has been completed on wings A, B and C. The works required in D wing will be undertaken this year. By the time we get to mid- or late 2014, there will be in-cell sanitation throughout the prison. The work that the Deputy should have seen when he was there will transform the prison. For completeness, I will also deal with Cork Prison. I visited Cork Prison very soon after being appointed Minister. The staff there, under the Governor, do extraordinary work in very difficult conditions. Cork Prison is a poorly-constructed facility in which we cannot provide in-cell sanitation. In my view, the facilities for education, training and re-training are also inadequate. That is why we are going ahead with Cork Prison. The construction on the prison should be complete by mid-2015. I mentioned in my opening address that all works will be complete by the end of 2015. Once the construction is complete, there will be a fitting out stage before it can be used. Then we will have a prison in Cork with in-cell sanitation and the existing prison will cease to operate. Thereafter, there will be fewer than 100 cells across the prison service which do not have in-cell sanitation, in Limerick and Portlaiose prisons. It is my determination that we address those as well. We have been transforming the prisons in the country since 2011 so that we will have a prison structure that is appropriate in the 21st century and not based on the 19th century, one that respects human rights and that ensures that those serving sentences are treated in an appropriate manner. We are working to meet the standards which, as a State, we should adhere to.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. Is everyone happy with that?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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On the issue of human rights, referred to by the Minister ---

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Which subhead is the Deputy speaking to?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The one the Minister has just dealt with. I wish to raise the case of Margaretta D'Arcy, the anti-war campaigner who is-----

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Excuse me, Deputy McGrath-----

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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-----in Limerick prison at the moment. Can the Minister do something about her human rights?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, Deputy, please. We are actually dealing with subheads here.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I know, but the Minister mentioned human rights-----

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry but we cannot divert away from the subheads. If the Deputy wishes to bring that up, he will be facilitated in another forum. We cannot go down that road now because other Deputies will have other cases they wish to raise but that is not what this meeting is about. We are dealing with subheads and I made that very clear from the start. We are dealing with the subheads as they arise.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I have no issue with the Chair, who is conducting the meeting in a very efficient manner, but I want to bring to the Minister's attention how upset I am about Ms Margaretta D'Arcy.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy can do so in another way. We are dealing with the Estimates. Policy is a different matter.

Under subhead A4 prison services, the Estimate has been reduced from €40 million to €28 million. This relates to prisoner catering, clothing, bedding, furniture, cleaning and laundry, gratuities, medical supplies, work training and recreation. Do members wish to discuss matters arising under these headings? We will proceed to subhead A5, a new subhead to identify separately fleet management and other operational costs, which were previously contained within other subheads in the Vote. The Estimate is approximately €3 million. As far as I can see there is no change to the educational services Estimate from 2013 to 2014. This provision covers expenditure on each occasion for equipment, appeals and fees, payments to libraries, in-service training, and services from external agencies. Again there is no change in compensation paid to offenders while in custody.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Is the compensation scheme administered by the State Claims Agency or is it administered by the Department?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Through the Chair, the State Claims Agency deals with the claims for the most part.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Estimate for the year 2014 is €2,873,000. This is to cover for personal injuries and damages to property sustained by offenders while in custody, prison service staff in the course of duties, civilians injured in prison property and injured parties in traffic accidents involving prison service vehicles. It would be interesting to get a breakdown on those four items.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I am not sure I have that to hand, Chairman, but we can furnish the information to the Deputy. That is the overall global figure that will be usual in the context of the Estimates.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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There are eight social disadvantage measures funded from the dormant accounts. We come to the appropriations-in-aid and the largest individual item in subhead B relates to receipts from pension related deductions and public service remuneration.

The next item is the Courts Service. Vote 22, subhead A1 is salaries, wages and allowances, in which there is a slight reduction, salaries, wages, allowances to the court staff, extra attendance and employers social welfare contributions. We note there is a staff of 927 full-time equivalents at the end of the year in the Courts Service.

There is no change in travel and subsistence, however there is a slight change in the Estimate for incidental expenses, training, juries, legal services. There is no change in post and communication or office machinery and external IT services. There is a slight reduction in the Estimate for office premises expenses. Whereas there is no change in the Estimate for consultancy and services value for money policy reviews there is a slight increase in subhead A3, courthouse capital works.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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There is a programme of courthouse rebuilding and it is the Minister's intention to separate family law cases from civil law cases in the courts. People accompanied by children find themselves in a very stressful situation when preparing for family law courts. The courthouse is like a cattle mart with different types of cases waiting to be heard and the people in civil law cases and others must wait for long periods. In terms of design, are new court buildings being designed in anticipation of dedicated family courts sitting on separate days from the courts hearing civil cases?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy may be aware that under existing legislation going back to the Judicial Separation and Family Law Reform Act 1989, there is an obligation on the courts to ensure when hearing family cases, for example separation cases or cases in relation to children, that they sit on different days or at different times from other sittings. This has applied from that time to separation cases. Similar provisions were transposed into the Family Law (Divorce) Act 1996 and generally that applies across the board in the context of family law issues and a range of legislation. We are looking at the creation of a unified system of family courts and considering how best to proceed in that context. This gives rise to issues, a possible constitutional change, the need for legislation and the architecture of what those courts would look like. At present there are fragmented jurisdictions where, for example, the Circuit and the District Court can deal with overlapping issues and the Circuit and the High Court can deal with other overlapping issues and some are exclusive to the High Court with the result that across the broad range of family law issues there is a multiplicity of different judges and different courts dealing with similar circumstances in respect of different people. There is also the additional layer of dealing with child care cases.

We are engaged actively in looking at how we proceed down this route. It is likely that I will bring proposals to the Government during the course of this year but I cannot give an exact date yet. There is the structural issue. We clearly do not have unlimited resources to start building a whole range of specialised courts across the country. In other countries, such as certain states in Australia, there are wonderful facilities, such as individualised family courts that do not deal with any other business of any description in the court context. We are looking at how we deal with this in the context of our limited resources and the existing court building structure. The Courts Service has been undertaking work in courts that hear a substantial number of family law cases to provide additional consultation facilities. In some areas where it has done that, the provision is not adequate because the Courts Service is limited in what it can do by the nature of the building. This is an issue in which we are engaged in dialogue. No final conclusions have been reached but I hope that as we go through the year we will be in a position to make decisions and make some important announcements and then progress the legislative agenda with regard to the creation of an integrated unified family court system.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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There is an extra €2 million in the Estimates for this year. Where will it go?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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That relates to the Court of Appeal. The Court of Appeal will effectively have a civil division and a criminal division. It is anticipated that the civil side of the Court of Appeal will sit in the Four Courts and the criminal side will sit in the new modern criminal court complex. There is work being done on that. The Courts Service is involved in looking at these issues and, of course, it is very important that the Judiciary are consulted through the Chief Justice. My Department is looking at these issues. The issues range from the construction and renovations that may be necessary to create the framework of the court so that it is distinct from other courts, what software may be necessary so that we have the best possible high tech arrangements to reduce the amount of paperwork necessary and to maximise efficiencies. There is the cost of any additional staff that may be required for the Court of Appeal. There are issues also regarding whether some of the back-up staff and administrative staff may be available within the existing staff, either the Courts Service, the Department of Justice and Equality or across Departments.

We are trying to do this in a manner that does not generate unnecessary expense. Cearly, judges will be appointed to the court and they must be remunerated. In the Estimates some €2 million has been allocated for this project. The objective is that the new Court of Appeal will be sitting and working in the law term starting in October this year. I should say, Chairman, that is a very ambitious objective because we must enact legislation which is substantially developed and which I hope will be published in the next few weeks. It must be brought to Cabinet. I understand it will be to hand after it goes through one further drafting.

That legislation must be enacted and the Judicial Appointments Advisory Board obviously will be involved in the context of advertising the judicial places. It cannot do this until the legislation is enacted and then there is the physical structure. The objective is to have the Court of Appeal up and running in October next. While I am told this is an ambitious objective to achieve, I will try to ensure it is achieved and this is the reason the sum in question has been allocated.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We will move onto subhead A4 pertaining to public private partnership, PPP, costs and there is no change there.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, I have a question in respect of subhead A3.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Is the Deputy back on subhead A3?

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it is a question on courthouse capital costs. I ask the Minister to outline the current position on the provision of a new courts complex in Limerick city. There is a proposal somewhere within the system to relocate the District Court, which at present is adjacent to the offices of Limerick City Council, either onto or adjacent to the campus of Limerick Prison, Mulgrave Street. When President Higgins visited Limerick yesterday, it was necessary to usher in the officers of Limerick City Council through the side door. This is a bone of contention in Limerick in respect of image.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister, on plans for Limerick courthouse.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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In the context of the plans for Limerick, the Part 9 application was omitted on 15 November. Agreement has been reached with the Prison Service about a ground-level link between the courthouse and the prison and that is included in the plans. The funding for the project is part of the PPP investment package of projects that were announced some time ago. While matters are developing, it will take some more time for this project to get to a point at which one discerns progress on the ground, as opposed to on the planning side. Quite clearly, the PPP side of this and its funding must be resolved.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, the PPP itself is the issue I wish to tease out. If the project is to be funded by PPP, has the funding been put in place or is that still a work in progress?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is a work in progress but I can give the Deputy hope by stating I am optimistic that the work in progress will bear fruit. Matters must be advanced further than the stage the project currently is at but the submission of the Part 9 application on 15 November was a step in the right direction.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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What is the timeline?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Progress is now being made.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Is there an indicative timeline?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I will revert back to the Deputy on the timeline because I do not have a final timeline at present.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Mac Lochlainn also wishes to come in on the PPP.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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On the same theme, I would be remiss in not raising the conditions in Letterkenny courthouse, County Donegal. It is a pity because visually, it is a fine, great-looking building on the outside but it simply is not fit for purpose. I have seen myself how it presents like a cattle mart. There are no consultation rooms available for solicitors, barristers and their clients, prisoners are being locked in prison vans and it is completely not fit for the purpose for which it is required. While I understand there are plans afoot for new capital building, can the Minister indicate a timeframe in this regard?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Again, the Part 9 application was submitted on 15 November last and progress is being made. I appreciate it is slow but various issues must be dealt with and addressed. I assure the Deputy I am doing what I can to progress matters, as is the Courts Service.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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If everyone is satisfied, we will move onto subhead A4, on the PPP costs. Everyone is happy with that. The next item pertains to appropriations-in-aid, which covers fees for court transactions, miscellaneous items, pensions and so on and again, and there is no major change in this regard. That concludes the Estimates for the Courts Service. If everyone is satisfied with the Courts Service and in the absence of questions or comments, we will move on.

We will turn to the Property Registration Authority, PRA, and will deal first with subhead A1 on wages, salaries and allowances. Again, I note a slight reduction in this one and as for staffing levels, I note 518 full-time equivalent staff. There any no questions or comments. In respect of travel and subsistence, €110,000 has been provided for the staff of the authority and members have no issues. There has been a slight reduction in training and development and incidental expenses. That includes Ordnance Survey Ireland charges, training, cleaning services, uniforms, advertising and PRA board members' fees. There are no issues. There is a slight reduction in the provision for postal and telecommunications services and for office equipment and external IT services. There has been no change in the provision for office premises expenses or for consultancy services and value for money policy reviews. There has been a slight change in the amount for pension-related deductions of public service remuneration. In the absence of general comments in respect of the Property Registration Authority and as everyone seems satisfied in this regard, we will move onto the next programme.

I refer to the programme to maintain a secure Ireland in the justice Vote 24. The committee will start with administration and pay, for which there is a slight increase. The administration non-pay subhead shows a slight decrease. Members are happy enough in this regard. The provision for the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, INIS, has reduced from approximately €49 million to approximately €47.5 million. That covers the administration of the Department's functions in respect of asylum, immigration, citizenship and related matters. There are no comments or questions. Provision for asylum seekers' accommodation has reduced from €57 million to €51 million and Deputy Mac Lochlainn wishes to comment on this one.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to raise the issue of the direct provision centres. When will a point be reached when Members deal with this issue? There are considerable human rights concerns in this regard. A debate on the issue took place recently on "Prime Time" and it clearly is not acceptable as an accommodation option into the future. On the departure of the former Ombudsman, Emily O'Reilly, it was notable that she believed the area of immigrants, housing, applications and so on should come under the remit of the Ombudsman. She referred in her speech to direct provision centres and as European Ombudsman, she is now a person of international reputation in respect of defending citizens' rights and human rights. I suggest to the Minister that this system cannot be stood over. In particular, the core difficulty is the length of time people must stay within such centres. I have listened to some asylum seekers who acknowledged the possibility of it being just for a period of three or six months. The problem is linked to the system of appeals. Is there a way of fast-tracking the system or reshaping and dealing with it in such a way that people do not spend years in such accommodation, with very little income or freedom while eating food that in some instances is not that to which they are culturally accustomed? What is the Minister's vision in respect of moving away from that model?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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There are a number of issues of relevance to this matter. The people concerned are relevant, as is the language we use. The language that is used when discussing this particular issue on occasions gives the wrong insights and perceptions. At the outset, I note the Deputy and I share a view, which is that Ireland's legislation in this area must be changed. One difficulty over the years has been that if one applies for asylum and if one is unsuccessful, one can then apply for leave to remain and if one is unsuccessful, one can then make another application. Each application must be decided anew by the body dealing with that issue. Consequently, in the case of someone who has gone through the process whereby he or she made an initial application for asylum and an appeals process which was refused, the thing keeps on starting all over again. It is my hope and certainty, finally, that this year, legislation will be published to reform this entire area in the context of dealing with asylum, residence and immigration issues.

Three attempts to achieve this were made by predecessors and we had three previous Bills in this area. The reason the legislation I hope to bring forward has been delayed for so long was simply that the troika demanded that other legislation be given precedence. We had to deal with the insolvency and legal services legislation, which were important of themselves, while the Office of the Attorney General also had to deal with a broad range of Bills from other Departments. This has made it impossible for us to finalise the Bill. In that context, a substantial amount work has been done in my Department and work is under way in the Office of the Attorney General. We should have the Bill this year.

The effect of the Bill will be that, where an individual arrives in Ireland claiming asylum, a decision making process will be in place under which all issues can be determined together. A fair, objective and proper hearing will be provided, as will an appeals procedure, but it should not take two years to work one's way through the process.

I was asked the reason people are in direct provision for so long. I am concerned about this issue and the language surrounding it. The issue of conditions in direct provision also arises. I visited a number of the centres in which direct provision is being provided and spoke to many of the staff and residents in them. I have examined a substantial number of files relating to the circumstances of individuals. The overwhelming majority of individuals who have been in direct provision for more than 18 months are or have a family member challenging, through court proceedings, decisions made to refuse them asylum or the right to remain in this country. Individuals are entitled to have access to the courts and some people have succeeded in their cases because the courts have taken the view that original decisions were not appropriately made, there were procedural defects in the decisions or some issues should have been given greater attention. This results in the matter being referred back for a new decision to be made. I am not saying people should not have access to our courts. I am simply saying the overwhelming majority of people who have been in direct provision for 18 months or more are engaged in court proceedings. More than 1,000 cases are pending in the courts. One of my officials will provide the exact figure. In that context, I believe there are slightly more than 4,000 people currently in direct provision.

Many individuals who come here and claim asylum are not truly asylum seekers but economic migrants trying to exploit the asylum process. This is not only a problem in Ireland but a problem across Europe. We have a system where those who want to come to this country must apply for appropriate visas and those who want to work must obtain work permits in the context of nationals of states outside the European Union member countries. The unfortunate reality is that this creates a difficulty for genuine asylum seekers. I have very strong views about this issue and I believe we should treat those seeking asylum correctly and allow them to stay here. I have expressed those views many times in the House, prior to becoming a Minister and I continue express them, including in Europe where I make that case to our colleagues in other member states.

There is an enormous problem of people seeking to evade visa requirements, although it occurs to a far lesser extent here than in most other European states. A significant number of those who claim political asylum present information that is entirely false and present themselves as being different people from the people they are or as originating from a country that is not their home country. For example, there are cases where people claim to be from Somalia and it turns out they are from Kenya. In other cases people claim they were being tortured in some part of the Middle East at a time when we discovered they were living in London or Birmingham. There are cases of people being granted political asylum and it turns out some years earlier, when they claim citizenship, that they had sought political asylum under an assumed identity and assumed nationality. This is a major problem.

The problem is that there are a number of individuals who came here as economic migrants, failed to gain political asylum and whose cases are pending in our courts. I am not saying this applies to everyone who has brought a case and it would be wrong for me to do so. However, as a consequence, the courts have lacked the capacity to deal with speed with a large number of court cases and there are people in direct provision for an unduly lengthy period.

The language used around this issue is that all asylum seekers are being kept in direct provision. A considerable number of people who have been entirely through the system should not have sought asylum in the first place. These economic migrants are making court applications and the courts will ultimately determine the validity of the cases they are making. I must not say anything that would prejudice anyone's case. I re-emphasise that I am sure there are some people who brought court cases who will rightly be successful in those cases. That is the first problem.

No one is required to remain in direct provision. If I am an asylum seeker and have some other financial means or friends, relations or someone else who will provide me with accommodation and upkeep, I am not required to remain in direct provision. Direct provision is a system that facilitates individuals who have no housing or home and very limited resources. They and their children are fed and given a roof over their heads. It facilitates their children attending school and ensures medical treatment is available. They receive all of these supports. What we are doing is substantially better than what is being done in a number of other European countries. I am not saying we could not do better. I would like a system in which all applications, save in exceptional circumstances, were determined within a maximum of 12 months. I would like a system in which those who require these sorts of supports would not have to remain in direct provision for more than 12 months, one in which those who come here illegally, falsely claim asylum and, having been through a system in which there is full confidence and having been found not to be here lawfully and not to be asylum seekers, can be deported properly and with some speed.

It is important to address another issue because people do not understand this. We have some individuals against whom deportation orders have been made and they have been through the entire system, including the courts, but cannot be deported because the states from which they came will not receive them. That is yet another aspect of the complexity of the issue. This issue is often presented in simple black and white terms.

The objective should be to ensure we have an efficient and humane system. I wish there was something better than direct provision. However, if we were to say that people who come here claiming asylum and are in the system and have had their asylum application refused, should, by virtue of bringing court proceedings to delay the inevitable making of a deportation order or by virtue of other challenges, be automatically allowed to work after a certain period, it would drive a coach and four through our visa system. It would also result in thousands of people who are economic migrants arriving in Ireland. The State would not be able to cope with the numbers. We have domestic issues as the Deputy and I both know. I am a member of a Government that wishes we had more funding available to us to facilitate the construction of local authority housing for individuals who are living here and were born in this State.

My question is what is the alternative. Direct provision provides a financially effective way of ensuring nobody claiming asylum, whether a valid asylum seeker or an economic migrant, will be left sitting on the streets and they and their families will have a roof over their heads and food. On the issue of food, everything is being done to try to ensure, on the basis that people come from a variety of backgrounds, that ethnicity is taken into account in the type of nourishment and provisions provided.

What is the alternative within the resource capacity of the State? We are not in a position to provide local authority housing.

If it were done through private rented accommodation it would cost a great deal more, owing to the social welfare payments that would be required. There would be no certainty that the type of backup facilities that exist within the direct provision system would necessarily be available. There is oversight of the direct provision system. The moment problems were drawn to my attention during my time as Minister, we have ensured they were addressed rapidly.

This issue is not as simple as it looks. The language surrounding it gives rise to the impression that people, all of whom are genuine asylum seekers, are being kept in accommodation of the kind in question. The matter is more complex than that. Where adults or economic migrants have falsely claimed asylum, it is not their children's fault. The big issue of concern to me is the number of young children in direct provision and the length of time for which they are there. We are considering and addressing this as best we can to ensure the children will have available to them the sort of play facilities they need. For example, some of the direct provision centres I have visited employ people to provide play opportunities for children. Not all have the playgrounds I would like them to have but a number of them do and they are of benefit to the children.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Is Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn happy with that?

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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It was a comprehensive response. We just need-----

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We may need to have a follow-up meeting because we could actually spend a full meeting dealing with some of the subheads. It is no problem if members wish to do so. What I would like to do now is go through the figures and not spend too long on any one item; otherwise, we will be here until 6 p.m. There are other very interesting topics to be discussed. If members are interested in doing some extra work on this, we can have a special meeting and perhaps invite the Minister or his officials back to give a detailed, comprehensive briefing. I caution against going into too much detail on some of the subheads now because we could be here all day.

The next matter is the Garda Complaints Board, in respect of which there has been a slight reduction. Is every member happy with that?

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Has that not been superseded by the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission? What is the current status?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It has. My understanding is that the figure is the residual amount. I believe there was some outstanding court matter relating to the Garda Complaints Board. The Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission followed on from that. I anticipate that it will not appear in next year's Estimates.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Next is A6, which concerns the Criminal Assets Bureau. It has had a slight increase in its funding. With regard to the prison inspectorate, there is a slight decrease.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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With regard to the Criminal Assets Bureau, I attempted to introduce legislation on a number of occasions but it was ruled out of order because of a potential cost to the Exchequer. Where moneys are seized in a certain region or city from criminals, they should be ring-fenced for the affected communities, community or voluntary councils or front-line groups, which groups might be dealing with drug addiction, for example. Would the Minister ever consider that?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We are straying from the salaries, wages and other expenses of the Criminal Assets Bureau.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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At present, all funds collected by the bureau are forwarded either directly or through the Revenue Commissioners or the Department of Social Protection to the central Exchequer fund. The Constitution requires and Government accounting principles provide that the public moneys be spent only as voted or approved by Dáil Éireann, unless otherwise provided by statute. The policy of ring-fencing moneys obtained by the Exchequer and the reallocation of these for a specific purpose runs contrary to the normal Estimates process. Under this process, moneys that have been accumulated by the Criminal Assets Bureau are paid into the Government's Central Fund. It is a central fund from which the Government draws for expenditure on public services and investments, including the provision of drugs services. I do not intend to travel down the route proposed. It is ultimately the Department of Justice and Equality and the Garda that receive moneys from the Central Fund. Under the aegis of my Department, moneys go to various groups assisting victims of crime. In a sense this is almost an artificial conversation, because once money goes into the Central Fund, it means there are additional funds in that fund available. The Central Fund funds the Department of Justice and Equality in addition to all others. Therefore, this is not really a major issue.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The prisons inspectorate has been subject to a slight decrease. The Garda Ombudsman Commission has almost the same as it had; there is no major change.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Minister satisfied with the budget for the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission given his statement in recent days of his intent to expand the opportunity for people to engage with the commission? It is likely that the commission will be busier.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I anticipate that I will be bringing proposals to the Government on this issue. We have been examining it for over nine months. A number of amendments required to the Garda Ombudsman legislation have been suggested that are not of direct relevance to recent controversies. I have said we should examine the issue of the Garda Ombudsman dealing with serious complaints made by serving members of the force against other members of the force. I have done so. I have not considered what resource implications this might have for the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. The first stage is to develop the legislative proposals, which, I am sure the Deputy understands, must go to the Cabinet. It is then a matter of producing those proposals. I have not received any communications from the Garda Ombudsman to suggest it does not have the resources it needs to undertake the work it has at hand. Obviously, should that ever be raised with me, I will address it in an appropriate way.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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I have a related question. Is there potential for duplication in the work of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission and the Garda Síochána Inspectorate?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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There are occasions on which there could be an overlap. The Garda Síochána Inspectorate’s role is effectively to examine how Garda operations work and whether changes, either structural or procedural, should be made. Its role is also to examine how better efficiencies can be effected in the context of the use of resources, both human and financial. There is a range of such issues. The Garda Síochána Inspectorate does not have a remit to deal with allegations of misconduct. However, in the context of its remit - some sight of this has been lost in recent days - the report of Assistant Commissioner O’Mahoney and the audit report produced by the Garda side dealing with the fixed charge ticket issue were deliberately referred by me to the Garda Síochána Inspectorate so it could consider the matter in all the relevant contexts. I expect very shortly to receive its report on that issue. The Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission deals with allegations of misconduct made against members of the force. In dealing with issues of misconduct, when publishing a report it may comment on operational matters or procedural issues. There can be an overlap to some extent but there is a very distinct and different focus when something is sent to the inspectorate by comparison with the Garda Ombudsman.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I have a query similar to that of Deputy Collins. Has the Minister examined the powers of the ombudsman in the North? The Minister suggested a garda with a serious concern, rather than a minor issue, might be able to go directly to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission rather than the confidential recipient.

The current matter which the Minister is referring to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission will, I suspect, have considerable resource implication. I wish to get a sense of it.

I welcome that the Minister has acknowledged there will be some additional powers, that he is thinking them through and that they will go to Cabinet. Naturally, they will have resource implications. Part of the modernisation process with our police service will be that strong accountability mechanism. Has the Minister examined any models? I have in mind not only the force in the North, the model we would most closely relate to on this island, but perhaps are there other models in Europe which the Minister has examined and he could introduce additional powers to strengthen the force. What would be the resource implications of such a move?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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In the context of any proposals that I bring to Cabinet we would have conducted a comparative look at other relevant legislation. Obviously, we would get some insight into the resource implications or otherwise. I expect those in the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission should be well able to address and deal with the issues that have been referred to them. They would have formally received the letter of referral from me yesterday of those matters that have been the focus of public attention in recent days in the context of the engagement of the Committee of Public Accounts. I imagine if I strayed into commenting further the Chairman would stop me and therefore I will not.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Thank you. Are we finished with the subheads for the Garda Ombudsman Commission and Office of the Garda Inspectorate?

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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If resources are required for those in GSOC to fulfil their responsibilities, they will be provided. They will not be short of resources. Is that the case?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I assure the Deputy that there is no question, on my watch, of those in the GSOC requiring to do something of importance in the public interest and then their being deprived of the resources they require. There is no indication to me that they lack the resources they need to address issues that are before them at present or with regard to a matter referred to them within the past 24 hours.

Incidentally - I will say this in one sentence so that I do not get shot - it was open to the GSOC at any time to have taken up those issues on its own initiative if it had concluded it was in the public interest and need to do so. Again, that is something that seems to be missed in some of the commentary. Clearly, until I referred the matter to those in the GSOC, they did not form a view that the public interest required that they engage on the matter.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Subhead A10 relates to the Irish Youth Justice Service. There is no major change here. We note there is a movement to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs in matters relating to young offenders. Does the committee have any comments? No.

Let us move on to programme B, work for safe communities. There is a slight reduction in the subhead for administration - pay and administration – non-pay. If anyone wants to come in on a point, please stop me. There is a slight increase in the subhead for the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner. There is no change in the subheads for funding for services to victims of crime or crime prevention measures. There is virtually no change to the subheads for the Private Security Authority, the Irish Film Classification Office or the Mental Health (Criminal Law) Review Board. There is a slight reduction in the subheads for Cosc and the Probation Service – salaries, wages and allowances and Probation Service – operating expenses. There is an increase in the subhead for the Probation Service – services to offenders. There is a slight reduction in the subhead for the community service order scheme.

Programme C serves to facilitate the provision and administration of justice. There has been a slight reduction in the subhead for administration – pay and an increase in the subhead for administration – non-pay. There is also an increase in the subhead for commissions and special inquiries.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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How many commissions and special inquiries are in progress?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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This relates to subhead C3.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I suspect there is one but I want to come back and confirm that to the Deputy. There is one in which there is an outstanding issue. There are what I would describe as completion issues. For example, the Smithwick tribunal has delivered its report but there are outstanding issues on costs and other matters that the tribunal must deal with. The Independent Commission for the Location of Victims' Remains also comes within the overall allocation. That body is still in existence. Unfortunately, there is no indication at the moment of any significant search or excavation works to be undertaken. There are the remains of a number of individuals who were murdered during the Troubles and whose remains are still to be located. There are a number of bodies which fall under this heading. In the context of my awaiting the outcome of some current inquiry or investigation, my recollection is there is only one. I will drop a note to the Deputy to give him any additional information.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Are you happy with that, Deputy Collins?

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The next subhead is C4, legal aid - criminal, relating to the payment of claims for legal services. It also relates to decisions of the courts to grant legal aid. There is a slight reduction in the subhead.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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There is legislation proposed. What is the position with that?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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All I can say to the Deputy at this stage is that it is on the list. Deputy Collins will have seen the A list of legislation published this term. It is in a queue of important legislation. I hope we will see it during the course of this year. Naturally, I am very much dependent on the Office of the Attorney General and my officials.

I say this privately on a regular basis and I should probably say it publicly on some occasions. I am constantly amazed at the capacity of my officials in the Department of Justice and Equality to draft and be engaged with the largest amount of legislation that any Department has to publish. Also, I am astonished at the capacity of the Office of the Attorney General and the Attorney General to deal with the vast amount of reforming legislation coming from not only my Department but all the Departments in which my colleagues, from both parties, serve as Ministers. That is an issue. I would publish all of this tomorrow if we had the capacity to finalise it. I hope we will see it during the course of this year.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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There has been a slight increase in the next subhead, C5 Legal Aid - custody issues. There has been a slight reduction in the subhead for the Legal Aid Board – grant-in-aid but nothing significant. That also covers the budget of the Family Mediation Service. The same applies to the subhead for the Free Legal Advice Centres. The subhead for the Coroners Service has got an increase. There is virtually no change to the subhead for the Parole Board. There is an increase for the Forensic Science Laboratory and a decrease in the subhead for State Pathology Laboratory. There is a major change in subhead C12 for the compensation for personal injuries criminally inflicted. Does anyone wish to comment? Perhaps the Minister may wish to refer to that.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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That is the subhead I mentioned earlier where there were substantial outstanding sums payable under that scheme. There was an extraordinary wait because in the past, due to the nature of awards made and the limited funding available, there was an accumulation dating back some time. That was the position when I came into office. There were moneys due since 2008 or 2009 to individuals. We managed to bring that to a conclusion. At the end of last year one of the sums that we provided for in the Supplementary Estimate was to completely discharge the backlog of all arrears due. Therefore, the sum allocated this year is less because there is no backlog and we are simply dealing with whatever claims will be finalised during the course of 2014.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The next subhead is C13 for central authorities (child abduction, child protection and maintenance debtors). There has been a slight increase to that.

There is no change for the legal services regulatory authority. We spoke about the Magdalen fund-----

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I wish to speak about the legal services regulatory authority because I want to keep faith with a promise I made to members. The final tranche of amendments to that Bill, which would improve it and ensure some of the reforms we are implementing will come to fruition more speedily, is a very welcome development which I hope will have the support of members.

The amendments were agreed yesterday in Cabinet. I hope they will be circulated to members before the end of this week. We have provisionally fixed 12 February for dealing with them. That will give members a good deal more time than they had previously. If there is any particular reason the Bills Office cannot distribute the amendments by the end of this week, I will ask that the draft version be made available to members. It has been indicated to me that they should be formally distributed by the end of this week.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. That will be very helpful. The next subhead is C15, the Magdalen fund, which we discussed earlier.

We will move to programme D, equality and integration. The administration pay and non-pay are slightly down. There is a big increase under subhead D3, Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, from €4.335 million to €6.299 million.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I hope that the Bill on human rights will be published within the next six weeks.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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There is an increase under subhead D4, social disadvantage measures, dormant accounts funded. There is no change in D5, grants to women’s organisations. There is a slight reduction under D6, Traveller initiatives.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Minister explain what appears to be a discrepancy under Traveller initiatives between €405,000 in 2013 and €305,000 in 2014, although there is an outturn of €99 million?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The provisional outturn is €99,000 not €99 million.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Where does the figure of €405,000 come from, which goes down to €305,000?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Last year’s allocation was €405,000 and I can get further information for the Deputy. In the end only €99,000 of that was spent although €405,000 was available. This year €305,000 is available. I hope it will be appropriately taken up.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Minister give me a note on how that happened?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I think all members would be interested in that information because we are doing some work on this subject.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I will come back to the committee with a note on that.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The next subhead is D7, positive action for gender equality, which shows no change. Subhead D8 is the office for the promotion of migrant integration, for which there is a slight reduction but not much. There is no change under subhead D9, the European refugees fund. There is a slight reduction under subhead D10, disability awareness initiatives, and D11, the National Disability Authority. There is no change in charities regulation under D12. There is a slight reduction in the charitable donations and bequests office, under subhead D13. Subhead D14 is payments to the promoters of certain charitable lotteries, which is down a bit. That is the end of programme D. Are there any comments or questions on programme D?

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Is D14 the compensation fund?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Is 2014 the last year of its phasing out?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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No. The phasing out continues until 2015. The first reduction in payments was effected in 2013, the second is 2014, this year, and the third will be 2015. In effect, the total available fund in 2013 was €4 million, in 2014 it is €2 million and in 2015 it will be €1 million. It will not be fully and finally phased out until 2016. The purpose and intent behind this is to allow those charitable bodies that benefited from the fund to reorganise and recalibrate their fund-raising activities to ensure they have maximised use for charitable purposes of moneys donated by members of the public, be it through the purchase of scratch cards, lottery cards or any other type of draw in which they have been engaged. I was concerned to ensure there was not an instant reduction in the funding available but I had concerns, as I said in the Dáil a week ago, about the manner in which that scheme was calibrated. While well-intended and supported by a succession of governments, it was never envisaged that it would develop in a manner that simply encouraged the sale of tickets and did not result in the charities' seeking to ensure the maximum portion possible of the funds raised from the public was utilised for charitable purposes.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We will move on to programme F, contribution to economic recovery. Administration pay is up and non-pay is down a bit. Subhead F3, National Property Services Regulatory Authority is up from €848,000 to over €1 million. There is a slight change under subhead F4, Insolvency Service Ireland. As no one wants to comment on programme F we will move on to the final programme, G, which deals with appropriations-in-aid. The total there is up slightly. There are several sections. Does anybody want to ask any questions about or comment on them? I do not think there is any major problem in the figure for administration at the very end. Does anybody have any points they want to raise?

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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There is a figure of €16 million for immigration registration fees, under programme G, appropriations-in-aid. How does that break down in numbers of people?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I may have to come back to Deputy Collins on that matter. I think it relates to dealing with visa applications and fees payable on foot of visa applications. As a result of the visa waiver programme, a considerable number of people who travel to the UK from outside the EU do not require visas in this State and have come on to visit this State. When we put that scheme in place, we envisaged there would be a reduction in income received but there was not because we have had more visitors in recent years. This is the estimate for the fees we expect to receive in 2014. It is a bit below the sum for the outturn of 2013 because that was the year of The Gathering and we do not have full visibility on whether visitor numbers will decrease in the year after The Gathering. We do not know what its impact will be. That is the estimate of the income we will receive.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Finally, there is the heading for administration. Unless anyone wants to raise a point on that, there is no major change overall, as far as I can see. This concludes the select committee’s consideration of the Revised Estimates.