Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Heather Humphreys. The main topic of business is consideration of the Revised Estimates for the Department of the Taoiseach. The Dáil ordered on 18 December 2013 that the following Revised Estimates for the public services be referred to this committee for consideration: Vote 1 - President's Establishment; Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach; Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General; Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office; Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions; and Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor.

I welcome the Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Paul Kehoe, and their officials. The purpose of the meeting is to consider the Revised Estimates and the supplementary performance information regarding the outputs and impacts of programme expenditure. The draft timetable for the meeting has been circulated to members. Is the timetable agreed? Agreed.

I call on the Taoiseach to make his opening statement.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am glad to attend this meeting to consider the Estimates for Votes 1 to 6, inclusive. The 2014 Estimates in each case are the President's Establishment - €3.267 million; the Department of the Taoiseach: €19.423 million; the Office of the Attorney General - 14.301 million; the Central Statistics Office - €39.577 million; the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions - €36.838 million; and the Office of the Chief State Solicitor - €26.309 million. The total Estimates for these Votes in 2014 is €139.715 million, a reduction of 5% from the 2013 Revised Estimates of €146.615 million.

I will briefly describe for the committee the broad areas of work which are undertaken by the Department of the Taoiseach. I will also briefly outline the proposed Estimates allocations for the President's Establishment, the Office of the Attorney General, the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Office of the Chief State Solicitor. As Members will be aware, while I have certain responsibilities to the Oireachtas in respect of administrative matters in the legal offices, they operate independently of my Department. The Minister of State will make a short statement on the Estimates for the Central Statistics Office, for which he has delegated responsibility.

The Revised Estimates for the President's Establishment for 2014 is €3.267 million. This includes just over €2 million for pay and administration, with the balance of €1.2 million to fund the centenarians' bounty. Based on last year's figures and recent trends, it is estimated that over 400 centenarians will receive the bounty in 2014, although this is impossible to predict.

Vote 2 is for the Department of the Taoiseach. A total of €19.423 million has been provided in the Estimates for the Department of the Taoiseach in 2014, a reduction of 12% on the 2013 Revised Estimates. In accordance with the programme for Government, my Department aims to provide a strategic centre which ensures a joined-up approach to the development and implementation of Government policy, and includes a small office to monitor delivery of the programme for Government across all Departments. As well as a number of executive functions appropriate to the centre of Government, much of this work involves support for meetings of the Government and Cabinet committees, including the Economic Management Council.

I believe that there were a significant number of achievements during the course of 2013 to which my Department contributed, working with other Departments and agencies. I will mention a few of these. One was Ireland's successful exit from the troika programme and re-entry into the bond markets earlier this month. This was greatly facilitated by the deal on the promissory note achieved in February and the achievement of fiscal targets in 2013 and in the 2014 budget. Second was the very successful Irish Presidency of the European Union in the first half of 2013 which has been widely commended. This was a major undertaking for the Department and I acknowledge the efforts of all involved, including temporary staff recruited for the Presidency. Third, as well as the EU Presidency, we have continued to restore Ireland's international standing and reputation, including through visits I have undertaken to America, the World Economic Forum in Davos, the G8 summit in Lough Erne, Japan, and most recently the Persian Gulf states. The Global Irish Economic Forum in October 2013 was another important part of this process. Fourth was the effective implementation of the 2013 Action Plan for Jobs and the updated Pathways to Work strategy published in July, which has been reflected in a fall in unemployment to 12.4% and a return to substantial new job creation, although unemployment is still too high. Fifth, there is the continued reform of the public service, in particular through the Haddington Road agreement concluded last June, as well as major reform programmes in local government, health, education and other sectors. Sixth, there was the putting in place of a comprehensive strategy for mortgage arrears, including Central Bank targets for each bank and the establishment of the new insolvency service. Seventh, there were political and constitutional reforms, including a new phase of Dáil reforms introduced last September, the work of the Constitutional Convention and meeting our commitment to hold a referendum on the Seanad. This was the sixth referendum during the lifetime of the Government and we are committed to further referendums in 2015 drawing on the work of the Constitutional Convention.

My Department was involved in many other specific initiatives and issues during 2013, for example, promoting the development of the Irish Financial Services Centre, IFSC, resolving the Priory Hall complex problem and facilitating social dialogue through the National Economic and Social Council.

For 2014, a great deal of further work is required in many of these areas, as well as progressing other priorities identified in the programme for Government and the Department's strategy statement. During 2014, the programme for Government office will continue to oversee implementation of the programme and will publish the third progress report next March.

The most important objective for the Department in 2014 will be job creation and, as I said on many previous occasions, 2014 will be all about jobs. Work is now advanced in preparing the Action Plan for Jobs 2014 and the Department will seek to ensure that this is delivered, along with the continued roll-out of Pathways to Work. My Department's work on the implementation of these strategies in 2014 will include some regional and local activities. My Department will also continue to support me in a strategic programme of international engagement, based around jobs, increasing trade and investment.

I recently had the opportunity to visit Japan and the Gulf States. Next week I hope to attend the World Economic Forum in Davos, and I also expect to travel to the United States in March where my focus will again be on building on our strong economic, political and business links with the US and progressing issues of concern to the Irish community, including immigration reform which is matter of increasing importance. During the planning and organisation of my overseas visits, my Department will continue to prioritise value for money and will minimise associated costs.
Through the work of the Cabinet committee on economic infrastructure, we will seek to maximise productive investment across the economy, including delivery of public private partnerships projects and other stimulus investments to support economic growth and employment. We also intend to deliver on the commitments in the medium-term economic strategy to ensure that the banking sector provides credit in a manner that supports economic recovery.
In relation to the European Union, I intend to build on the successful Presidency to develop alliances and work with our partners to advance and defend Ireland's priority interests. This is, and always has been, a core objective for me and my Department.
I continue to play an active part in the Council and, of course, continue our intense engagement across the board with the European Commission. We will also work to maintain the important political relationships established with the current European Parliament and to develop connections with MEPs in the new Parliament following the elections in May of this year. Alongside changes in the European Parliament, a new European Commission will be appointed later this year. Ministers will be making particular efforts to engage with the new commissioners soon after they take up their new roles. We also intend to deepen our long-term relationship with the European Commission and other institutions by maximising the number of Irish people working in these institutions on both a permanent and temporary basis. It is for this reason that the Department’s Estimate provides €1.2 million towards efforts to increase our presence, including meeting the cost of seconded national experts in relevant positions in EU and international organisations. This is an important investment in our future, by increasing our understanding of such institutions, whose work often impacts significantly at national level and thereby improving their understanding of us.
My Department’s 2014 Estimates also include an allocation of €250,000 for supporting EU engagement. This money is spent supporting work in primary schools through the Blue Star programme, in local community groups, non-governmental organisations and others, as well as working with stakeholders to build awareness of the EU jobs available to Irish citizens.
Earlier this week the Government published a new public service reform plan which sets out a new wave of reform across the different sectors. Implementation of this, including delivery on the potential under the Haddington Road agreement, is overseen by the Cabinet committee on public service reform. In addition, my Department is jointly sponsoring an initiative on renewal of the Civil Service with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Together with the consultation process recently launched on Civil Service accountability, this will result in a new vision and set of reforms to ensure that the Civil Service is fit for the challenges it faces in the years ahead. I expect the work to be completed by the summer.
Through the Cabinet committee on health, the focus in 2014 will be on the next phase of the reform process including publication of a White Paper on universal health insurance, implementation of "money follows the patient", structural reforms to move towards a purchaser-provider split in health delivery and full implementation of the hospital groups announced last year.
My Department’s Estimate includes an allocation of €920,000 for the Constitutional Convention in 2014. I believe that the convention has been very successful to date and, following a number of regional meetings in 2013, it has identified two further matters that it will examine this year, namely, Dáil reform and economic, social and cultural rights.
Northern Ireland and North-South relations and relations with Britain will continue to be important priorities for my Department. With regard to Northern Ireland, I was disappointed that the Haass talks concluded on New Year’s Eve without reaching agreement. It should be said and recognised that significant effort went into the talks. I have placed on record my thanks to Dr. Haass and his team for accepting the invitation of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to facilitate these talks and for their tireless pursuit of an agreement. I hope that the period ahead can be used to build on that effort and provide a basis for a future agreement. The Government is ready and stands ready to work with the Northern Ireland Executive, the British Government and the parties in Northern Ireland to support further efforts to achieve greater peace and build a united community in Northern Ireland. We will also continue to support the work of the North-South Ministerial Council and I look forward to the next plenary session of the NSMC that will take place in Dublin on 6 June 2014.
Another important occasion in 2014 will be the official visit of Uachtarán na hÉireann, President Higgins, to the United Kingdom. The first State visit by the President to Britain will be an important and historic occasion. Following on the very successful visit to Ireland by Queen Elizabeth in 2011, it will be a brilliant opportunity to deepen the relationship. While the visit, of course, is a matter primarily for the Uachtarán, the Government will offer any assistance that it can and that is required to ensure that the visit is a success. My Department and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade will provide assistance with logistical and other matters, while all relevant State agencies will also be asked to contribute. Ambassador Dan Mulhall in London will of course be centrally involved.
I am sure and hope that the visit will reflect the deep and growing relations between Britain and Ireland, not just in history and politics, but also in economics, trade, culture and kinship. I understand that it is also intended to have an appropriate event in London during the State visit to reflect our cultural ties that will be supported by Culture Ireland. It will also provide an opportunity for the very large Irish community in Britain to participate in the visit and for their enormous contribution to the life of both Britain and Ireland to be recognised.
During 2013 my Department has organised, or assisted with, a range of commemorative events including the 1913 Lock-out and the foundation of the Irish Volunteers. Of course, 2014 marks the centenary of the start of the First World War.Last December Prime Minister Cameron and I jointly visited a number of memorials in Flanders to pay our respects to those who died during the war, particularly soldiers from all parts of this island who fought in British uniforms. It was a unique occasion at Tyne Cot, Menin Gate and in Flanders. I believe it was important in showing how far relations between Britain and Ireland have come in recent times.
The 2014 commemoration of the 1916 Easter Rising will also take place at the GPO on Easter Sunday, 20 April, while the National Day of Commemoration ceremony will be held in the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham on Sunday, 13 July.
A total of €1.46 million has been provided for the Moriarty tribunal in 2014. The tribunal is currently dealing with applications for third party costs. The single member has indicated to my Department that the majority of applications for costs have been considered by him and that he hopes to have this process finalised in the near future. A new legal costs unit in the State Claims Agency is dealing with bills of costs from third parties at tribunals of inquiry, while the Chief State Solicitor’s office is handling bills received prior to the establishment of the legal costs unit.
The allocation for the National Economic and Social Council in 2014 is €1.99 million, a reduction of 21% since 2010. The council continues to provide a forum for dialogue between Government and the social partners as well as analysing economic, social and environmental issues. Following reports on the economic and social dimensions of the crisis in 2013, its work programme in 2014 will include housing, care of the elderly and jobless households.
I have outlined some of the priorities which the Department will be working to progress during the course of 2014. In all areas the Department seeks to ensure value for money and to maximise efficiencies and will continue to do so in 2014, adhering to best practice in terms of procurement.

In all areas, the Department seeks to ensure value for money and to maximise efficiencies and will continue to do so in 2014, adhering to best practice in procurement. The Department already participates in a number of shared service projects and is scheduled to join the Civil Service human resources shared service during 2014.

In respect of Vote 3, the Office of the Attorney General, for 2014 the Office of the Attorney General has a net budget of €14.301 million. This is broken into €12.885 million for the administrative subheads, €2.204 million for programme expenditure and appropriation-in-aid of €788,000. The majority of the administrative expenditure relates to staff salaries, which will cost €10.834 million in 2014. The next largest expenditure is provided for in subhead A4 and is €2.091 million in respect of the Law Reform Commission. Funds for the operation of the commission are channelled through the Vote as a grant-in-aid. Since 2008, the Vote's gross budget has reduced by 22.8%. Measures taken include reductions in expenditure wherever possible and a 28% reduction in administrative staff numbers. Staff losses have been confined to administrative positions in order to avoid any interruption of the core work of the office, that is, the provision of legal advice and drafting services to its clients. The office is fully engaged in all the public service reform initiatives.

In respect of Vote 5, the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Estimate for the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions is €36.838 million. This provides for the salaries and expenses of the director and her staff, the cost of the local State solicitor service, fees to counsel engaged by the director to prosecute cases in the various courts, and legal costs awarded against the State arising out of judicial review and other legal proceedings. The Estimate for 2014 represents a drop of 2%, or €576,000, over the 2013 Estimate. The biggest single factor in this drop is the reduction in the provision made in input A4, general law expenses. This input covers the payment of legal costs awarded by the courts in judicial review matters and other applications connected to legal proceedings. The provision of €2.121 million in respect of this input for 2014 represents a decrease of €1.213 million over the 2013 allocation. This reduction is possible because of an underlying reduction in the amount paid in respect of law costs awarded against the office over recent years. This has been driven by a costs settlement policy implemented by the office.

In respect of Vote 6, the Estimate for the Chief State Solicitor’s office is €26.309 million. Salaries, wages and allowances account for €14.8 million out of a total of €16.969 million. A figure of €11.2 million is allocated for the payment of legal fees incurred by the office. This can be broken down into an amount of €9.6 million for counsel fees, €1.4 million for general law expenses and €200,000 for the use of external solicitors. The remaining €2.2 million is attributable to the general running costs of the office and includes provision for items such as IT services, training, security, cleaning, utilities and upkeep of offices. The figures for salary and legal expenses, combined, account for 98% of the net allocation in the Revised Estimates of €29.92 million. Appropriations-in-aid are estimated at €1.86 million and will include legal costs recovered by the office along with the recoupment of the pension levy.

In conclusion, I thank Members and I commend the Estimates to the committee. The Minister of State, Deputy Paul Kehoe, will make a statement on the Estimates for the Central Statistics Office, for which he has ministerial responsibility.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Central Statistics Office, CSO, is responsible for the collection, processing and publication of official statistics on economic, social and general conditions in Ireland. While the main focus is to meet the statistical requirements of Government, the information published by the CSO is also used by other public bodies, and by businesses, universities, research institutes and the general public.

There is a significant international dimension to the work of the CSO. The EU institutions, the IMF, the OECD and other international bodies are all important users of official statistics. These bodies also have a significant role in defining and monitoring standards for the compilation of comparable information; and the CSO subscribes to the standards set out in the UN fundamental principles of official statistics and the European statistics code of practice.

The net allocation in 2013 amounted to €39.758 million and included preparatory funding for the 2016 census of population. In addition, the allocation included funding for the 2013 farm structure survey that was undertaken in June and for a household finance and consumption survey, the first of its kind to be undertaken by the CSO. The net allocation for 2014 is €39.577 million. The allocation provides funding for core outputs and for the following projects: the 2014-15 European health interview survey, the 2014-15 national employment survey, the 2015-16 household budget survey and the 2016 census of population.

The CSO is also implementing a long-term programme of changes in how it organises household surveys so that it can meet future information needs as efficiently as possible. In 2014 the CSO will publish about 300 releases and publications. All of these statistics are published online and members of the public are increasingly aware of, and able to access, statistics and indicators on the social, economic and environmental issues that affect their daily lives. The CSO’s statement of strategy gives priority to delivering the core statistics needed for policy, while keeping a strong focus on cost reduction. The office continues to meet all of its commitments under the public service reform programme; and is implementing a programme of reform and continuous business process improvement in the collection and processing of statistics.

The CSO is taking a lead role in developing the Irish statistical system by working closely with other Departments and public bodies to promote a more coherent approach to meeting data needs through the development of a code of practice for the Irish statistical system and promotion of a national data infrastructure, which will support greater usage of administrative data for statistical purposes. Making better use of data throughout the public sector is an important part of public service reform and will contribute to more evidence-informed decision-making and better measurement of policy outcomes.

Better co-ordination also contributes to reducing the burden on data providers. Between 2008 and 2012, the CSO has continued to reduce the response burden of its non-agricultural business surveys. When measured from 2008, the burden to 2012 has decreased by 33%, exceeding the target reduction of 25% over this timeframe. The CSO Vote for 2014 provides for a total of 660 staff, the same number as 2013. This no change situation reflects the cyclical nature of the work of the office and the introduction of new surveys this year. However, the long-term trend in core staff numbers is significantly downward. In conclusion, I commend the values and principles that inform the CSO’s work. The CSO makes an important contribution to Ireland’s public policy by providing a high-quality and, most importantly, independent statistical service.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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I thank the Taoiseach and the Chief Whip for their opening statements. I invite Deputy Sean Fleming to put questions.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to put two batches of questions, one on the Vote for the Department of the Taoiseach and another on the legal office and the Director of Public Prosecutions. I thank the Taoiseach and the Chief Whip for attending to discuss the 2014 Estimates. I will not make an opening statement. I have read the 100 pages of briefing material received. The first question concerns the Cabinet sub-committee on social policy and the Cabinet sub-committee on health.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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Can Deputy Fleming refer to particular pages in the presentation?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I refer to page 24 of the briefing note. This is only a general question. There are references to the Cabinet committees on social policy and health. Did they meet in the immediate run-up to the budget to discuss it, or were they excluded from the budgetary discussions?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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I will allow a certain degree of flexibility, but we are talking about budgetary operations, the outputs and the inputs, as opposed to the agendas of meetings.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Pardon?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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We are discussing the operations in a budgetary context in terms of outputs an inputs and so forth. We will not go into the issue of whether something was discussed at this or that meeting. Does the Deputy understand me?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The briefing note states the Cabinet committee on social policy met on seven occasions in 2013 and its focus included an area-based approach to child poverty and health and well-being. There is a full page on the specifics of what was discussed at the committee. I just want to ask one question in regard to the two Cabinet committees referred to. Did they meet to discuss the budget in addition to the matters that are listed?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Not specifically on the budget. Obviously, the list of things people discussed is there. Direct discussions took place between the Ministers for Health and Public Expenditure and Reform in respect of the budget and the ceilings to be set out there. Many of these matters were impacted on in one way or another by the budget but these Cabinet committees did not hold meetings strictly on the budget; nor did any other Cabinet committee. There were direct negotiations with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and the Minister for Finance.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I want to move to section H regarding the peace process. Last year, during the Estimates meeting, we spoke quite a bit about the legacy of the past and victims' meetings. I would like to know the Taoiseach's plan for 2014 because it is referred to as part of his work programme. I refer to the families of the disappeared and the 16 victims of republican paramilitary violence up to 2003. I understand the Taoiseach met some of the families last summer. There was a major documentary in 2013 and I think the Taoiseach made a speech following that asking Deputy Adams and Sinn Féin members to come forward with any information they might have to help. Does the Taoiseach have plans to continue his work under this peace heading in regard to the legacy issue of the families of the disappeared?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The discussions which took place recently in the Haass talks centred in part around issues of the past, and a great deal of progress was made there. I met with members of the families last year. I also spoke directly to Deputy Adams in respect of his contacts in the former Provisional IRA about knowledge or information on who abducted the persons involved, who might have been responsible for their deaths and where their remains were left or buried as the case may be. In his conversation with me, Deputy Adams made it clear that it would be very difficult after all these years to pinpoint accurately, from the sources known to him, where the remaining seven remains might be. He suggested from the knowledge he gave to me that the remains of the seven disappeared were in County Meath or County Monaghan. On the occasions on which I have the opportunity to visit either county, I continue to say that there may well be people out there with information about the remains of somebody left on their lands or whatever. While it was a long time ago, closure has not been brought to the families in these cases. While the organisation dealing with this has done a great deal of work, there are families out there who have not had closure. For my part, I will continue to do whatever I can do to bring about that information and that these remains can be recovered.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure the Taoiseach will join with me in asking any member of the republican movement who has information on the recent victims - we are just coming up to the first anniversary of the savage and brutal murder of Detective Garda Adrian Donohoe - to come forward. There is the same kind of legacy culture of not coming forward with information. If those people who have information could help the gardaí in the investigation-----

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely. Somebody made a decision to carry out an assassination or a murder and gave instructions that it be done, that the person or persons be transported and shot or whatever the method of murder or assassination was and that the person or persons be buried or left in different locations. I share that view absolutely. People who might have remorse at this stage, or who have any knowledge or information, should come forward. I understand the gardaí are pursuing a very active line of inquiry in respect of the tragic death and murder of Detective Garda Adrian Donohoe.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I refer to a matter under the heading of British-Irish relations which the Taoiseach mentioned specifically when he was with us last May and I would like to know if there will be developments on it in 2014. He said significant achievements last year included the launch of a new east-west interconnector and the signing of a memorandum of understanding on the trading of renewable electricity. I understand a memorandum of understanding has been signed to facilitate industrial wind farm development in certain regions in the country, including the midlands, with a view to exporting that electricity by way of a new interconnector. I think the memorandum of understanding was signed by the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Rabbitte, and his counterpart in the British Government. Has that memorandum been finalised? What will be the progress on that for this year? I refer to it because the Minister referred to it in the context of achievements by his Department last year.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The outcome of that obviously is-----

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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I am going to interject here. The briefing note gives a broad scope as to the operational aspects of the Department. The purpose of this afternoon's meeting is specific but I have allowed a degree of flexibility. I can revert to the agreed agenda and we can go through this heading by heading. However, I need a degree of discipline from members. We are discussing programmes in regard to their administration, pay and non-pay elements and matters relating to outputs and output targets. If there are finances in the Department of the Taoiseach relating to actions arising and where we can measure outputs, we can debate that, but I will not open up a general debate.

There is a certain degree of sensitivity surrounding the previous issue, so I did not intervene. However, I will intervene from here on in. I ask the Deputy to refrain from straying from this afternoon's programme and to deal with things in the context of the Estimate and not have a general debate around policy.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will confine everything I say to the items in the briefing-----

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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I will make one more intervention. Before this meeting we agreed a format, but I have allowed a degree of flexibility. If that is being abused, I will revert to the format we have agreed. Is that okay?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Lynch is the Chairman. This committee was given a 92-page briefing note from the Taoiseach in regard to matters which he has overseen as head of the Government. If the Chairman is saying the matters in the Taoiseach's briefing note cannot be discussed, that is his decision.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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There will be no showboating here.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I was almost finished.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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I can revert to the strict agenda or I can provide the Deputy with flexibility. If I find the flexibility I am providing is being abused, I will revert to the strict agenda.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is the briefing note which we graciously received from the Department of the Taoiseach inside or outside the scope of this meeting? I am going through the briefing document page by page but I have been told it is not to be discussed. Why did we get it then?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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I will go back to my opening comments. The purpose of this afternoon's meeting is to deal with the Revised Estimates for the Department of the Taoiseach. It is to deal with Votes 1 to 6, inclusive. The briefing note is to provide additional contextual information.

I have treated the Deputy with a certain amount of flexibility, as I did last evening, but he is now pushing the boat out-----

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I would have finished by now if the Chairman had not interrupted me.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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-----further than he did last night.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Chairman is delaying the meeting. I would have been finished-----

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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I can stay here all night. I have no difficulty with the time. I am not putting a time constraint on the meeting, but-----

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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In the context of supporting the work of the Taoiseach in government, under Vote 2, heading A, is the Taoiseach devoting any of his time to dealing with the east-west interconnector, which is paid for by this Vote?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The memorandum has been signed. I will have the opportunity to go to Downing Street in early March and will discuss the memorandum of understanding further with the British Prime Minister. The specific issue raised by the Deputy is the subject of continuing discussion and negotiation between the Minister and his counterpart in terms of long-term pricing and many other connected matters.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to the same heading, I ask the Taoiseach to outline his involvement with the North-South Inter-Parliamentary Association for 2014, given that his salary is paid under Vote 2. Is there a meeting planned?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I deal with the North-South Ministerial Council, which I co-chair when it meets here. The North-South Inter-Parliamentary Association-----

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach probably meets the association if a meeting takes place here. It is a general question.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is a function of the Ceann Comhairle and the Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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That is not germane to this afternoon's proceedings.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is aware that we rotate the chairmanship of meetings of the North-South Ministerial Council. Ministers also meet their counterparts at other times, depending on the issues being discussed.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the Constitutional Convention, on page 38, under subhead A5, it is stated that most of its work has been completed, yet there is an increase in the budget for this item. I ask the Taoiseach to explain that increase.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The amount is €920,000 and the convention may or may not use all of that. There are two issues that the convention wishes to conclude in this session, namely Dáil reform and economic, social and cultural rights. When the work is completed on those two areas and the convention sends in its report, I will talk to the chairman to get his views on how he and the convention should operate in the future. We have built up a bank of issues upon which the Government will have to make decisions in terms of whether referendums should be held in 2015. I have already signalled that it is the Government's intention to hold a number of referendums on the issues that have been reported on by the convention. While a figure of €920,000 is included for 2014, I cannot say whether all of that money will be used.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Subhead A6 refers to the referendum to abolish the Seanad, which took place in 2013. There is a zero allocation for 2014 but the heading is still included for comparative purposes. The figure in the Estimates is €1.193 million, but does the Taoiseach know the total cost of the referendum campaign to the taxpayer?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not have that figure here, but will get it for the Chairman.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is the last of my questions on the Department itself, but I have a number of questions about the Attorney General's office. With the Chairman's permission, I will ask those questions now and that will complete my contribution.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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That is fine.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Vote for the Office of the Attorney General is Vote 3. The Votes for the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Chief State Solicitor and the Attorney General are all related in that they are all legal entities. During 2013 the Haddington Road agreement was brokered and there was a lot of talk about the cuts that applied to those earning salaries in excess of approximately €62,000. Everyone in this room who is paid by the taxpayer had a salary reduction. A question arose as to whether that cut would apply to professional fees. The briefing note tells us that there were cuts to professional fees in 2009, 2010 and 2011. In July last year the Government decided to invoke the FEMPI legislation to implement a 7.5% cut to the professional fees paid to general practitioners, pharmacists and others who are not direct employees of the HSE. Did that FEMPI cut also apply to the legal fees at the Office of the Attorney General, the Chief State Solicitor's office and the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions? I see no reference in the documentation to the FEMPI cut in that regard. Why, in 2014, will we not have a saving on professional fees? Legal fees are the biggest issue under those three headings. The troika was here and one of the biggest regrets of its representatives when they were leaving was that they had not secured reform of the legal professions. The legal profession talked out the troika for three years and the legislation to reform that profession and make it more competitive was not produced. I had assumed that the cuts to professional fees that applied under Haddington Road applied to people who were being paid by the State, as is the situation in the health sector. Has it happened in the legal area too, and if not, why not? The legal fraternity was able to out-manoeuvre the troika on legal reform for three years. Did it out-manoeuvre the Government with regard to a FEMPI cut to legal fees for the coming year?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is still a lot of work going on in the preparation of Bills for legal services and for further reforms in the legal profession, as the Deputy knows well. Some of that work is being resisted, obviously. As I understand it, all fee notes for work carried out by counsel were critically examined and, where necessary, reduced to reflect the value of the work completed. Following this review, a reduction of 8% was due under the measures contained in the FEMPI Act of 2009, as applied. It is fair to say, therefore, that the fees paid by the State are substantially lower than those in private practice.

The programme for Government sets out that the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform will examine the possibility of tendering for procurement of barrister services and the potential benefits involved. In respect of the Office of the Attorney General and the Chief State Solicitor's office, the Department accepted that, for the present, it would be preferable not to introduce competitive tendering in the normal sense as those offices have been very successful in reducing legal fees over the past number of years. Since 2008 overall expenditure on fees to counsel have been reduced by 30%. It should be noted that the number of cases coming into the offices has not decreased significantly during this period. That does not answer the Deputy's specific question, but I will get the information he is seeking.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Finally, under the Vote for the Chief State Solicitor's office, on page 85 of the briefing note there is an interesting reference to the fact that additional staff have been employed to allow for the additional work emanating from the newly-constituted office of Government procurement. I will take this issue up with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform too, but it seems that the Taoiseach's Department is carrying additional costs for that new office. I ask that the Department provide information to the committee on those extra costs.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is part of the process of meeting our objective of saving €500 million on public procurement. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform will have further details in that regard.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will refer to the Minister on that issue. Finally, the last paragraph on page 86 refers to the Department undertaking a focused policy assessment on legal services and expenditure. I can take this up with the line Minister but it affects the Votes for the Taoiseach's Department. Is there a timescale for that policy assessment exercise? Is the Taoiseach able to say anything more on it other than the information contained in the briefing note? If not, I will take the matter up with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No; I cannot add anything. The Deputy will get further details from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have one final short question on the Vote for the CSO. In terms of the Department's plans for 2014, reference is made to the commencement of planning for the 2016 census of population. Is there a date set for that census? Will it be held before or after the general election?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I did not actually think of that. I have made it clear-----

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Will it be close?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Certainty and stability are very important for both business and politics, and as far as I am concerned this Administration intends to go the full distance. The date will be 10 April 2016.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is that the date of the election or the census?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy can figure that out.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I would hate to have census enumerators calling to the door at the same time as canvassers in the middle of the campaign.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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They might take some of the flak. Before I bring in Deputy Higgins, may I ask the Taoiseach the reason for the increase in the allocation for the payment of a bounty to centenarians in the Estimates for the President's establishment? Will the number of people over 100 years reach a record level?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The number over 100 years has increased. Any centenarian of Irish extraction, even those living abroad, can qualify for this bounty. Given the exceptional achievement, it is very hard to be precise on the number of people who live to be 100 years.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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Is it predicted that we will have more centenarians this year?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is the expectation.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I might have started by bidding the Taoiseach a happy new year, but I just realised that, 16 days in, the new year feels very old already, what with taxpayers being gouged by consultants, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, knowing nothing about anything, and the Labour Party in hiding. If I were a cartoonist drawing a cliché of the old man with the scythe leaving the old year and the baby coming in with the new year, I would have to seriously revise it in view of what we have endured in the past week in revelations. It does not bode well for the Government going into the new year.

The Chairman has put severe restrictions on us.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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I will have to ask the Deputy to withdraw that. We have an agenda and I have not put any restrictions on members.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I know, but the Taoiseach was able to come in-----

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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I can allow the Deputy to make an opening statement, but if the Deputy is asking questions they must be germane to the proceedings. The Deputy made a number of statements about babies and the new year, I do not know what relevance that has, but the Deputy was given the flexibility to make those points.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The Taoiseach has made political claims about his Administration and what he has spent his money on. It is our entitlement to respond.

In his statement and long briefing document, all produced with taxpayers' funds, the exit from the bailout and the deal on the promissory notes is extolled at length but may I put it to him that the downside should have been included also. The Taoiseach deals at length with the saving from the promissory note but neglects to say that the debts are put over 40 years and the children of children yet unborn will carry them. There should be some reference to the serious implications for people of the legacy of debt of 125% of gross domestic product now and interest payments of €9 billion a year. The Taoiseach gives us the rosy spin, and he has had the EU establishment spinning for him for the past two to three weeks because it was important for them that the bailout of their financial system on the backs of our people would be portrayed as something good. I am asking the Taoiseach to comment on the sustainability of what has been put forward in his opening statement.

I wish to raise also the issue of funding of trade missions undertaken by the Taoiseach. Will he comment also on his failure during his trade trips to make a reference to the human rights of the oppressed people of China who are routinely brutalised or those whose hands and legs are chopped off in countries such as Saudi Arabia and so on? I believe the Irish taxpayers would want the Taoiseach, when he is using their money to go to these countries, to have a strong position on that.

What funding will the Taoiseach allocate to mark the commemoration of the First World War, 1914-18? Will he take into account the First World War was a bestial and criminal enterprise by governments and the successors of those governments with whose representatives he rubs shoulders at commemorations but does not comment on the reasons that millions of working people slaughtered each other for the sake of their markets and colonies. Will the Taoiseach speak out on the criminal enterprise that it was or would that embarrass the Prime Minister, Mr. David Cameron and the others?

The Taoiseach states he will remember the soldiers, the soldiers who in the main were the poor and working class youths from all sides who were slaughtered and brutalised. They should be remembered, but they were victims. I would like the Taoiseach to comment on that.

There is an allocation for the Moriarty tribunal of €146 million for 2014. Is that the totality of all and any costs outstanding in relation to this tribunal? Will the Taoiseach give a breakdown of where the money is due to go?

The briefing document deals at length with the fair and social inclusive policies of the Taoiseach. May I put it to him that several agencies, including the ESRI, disagree with that statement? The ESRI states the impact of the Government's economic policies and austerity measures bears hardest on those with lower income and on the poor whereas the very wealthy and corporate sector and so on are not affected in the same way. Will he defend this when it is palpably not the case?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Higgins for his comments. On the question of exiting the bailout by the end of 2013, I believe this was an achievement that was regarded objectively by markets and international analysts as being significant and being the first eurozone country to exit a bailout programme. Market sentiment which has neither sympathy nor memory reflected that in its opinion. I was glad to see that early in January the National Treasury Management Agency was able to go back to the markets at a very acceptable rate and as a consequence was able to reduce its requirements for 2014, and has been in a position to have funding for the country to the end of the first quarter of 2015 without having to go to the markets at all. That has been reflected very favourably by business and by international market sentiment.

As I have said on many occasions, credit is due to the people, who have put up with many challenges and difficulties in recent years. They understand that this has been part of the process of exiting the bailout programme while maintaining our momentum towards the achievement of the targets we must meet as we try to put a shape on the public finances and get the country back to work.

I was also asked about sustainability. Obviously, our debt-to-GDP ratio is very high. That is why it was significant that there was a small primary surplus in the budget announced by the Minister for Finance. Clearly, the question of banking union is still a matter of deep discussion at European level. Further meetings of senior officials will take place later this month. It was always signalled that the decision of 29 June 2013 would be considered by the European Council towards the back end of 2014, when banking union and all of that is in place. We have had the stress tests in respect of the assets of our banks. They have measured up in that regard. The same opinion will apply in terms of the European stress tests to be conducted on all banks in the autumn of this year. As a result of the changes made with regard to the promissory note - the extension of loan maturities and the interest rate reduction - a significant amount of money will not have to be borrowed. While that helps us in a way, we are still left with significant challenges up ahead in any event.

It is difficult to describe the international trading situation to Deputy Higgins in the context of the possibilities that exist for Ireland. I was in Japan before Christmas on foot of the invitation that was extended by Prime Minister Abe. I had a long series of meetings in Tokyo and Osaka. Clearly, the Japanese Government, on the instruction of the Prime Minister and with his consent, was happy to lift the restrictions on beef going into the Japanese market. As the Deputy knows, this was restricted in the case of Ireland since the BSE crisis over ten years ago. We estimate that the Japanese market is worth approximately €15 million. It will have to be built up from a base again. Specific cuts are of real interest and value to the Japanese people. A significant number of Irish meat producers were in Tokyo to see at first hand the exact requirements of the Japanese authorities in this regard.

I was accompanied on my trip to Japan by representatives of many companies and I met many Irish business people while I was there. This would suggest that there is serious potential in terms of jobs. It is not like it used to be. In many of these cases, the people in question are able to monitor and supervise the progress being made from Ireland. As a result, there are jobs at home and there is real value abroad. I met 15 or 16 young engineers in Osaka who are working for Mitsubishi. They are there by choice. They are working on turbines for gas-generating stations. Some of their work would apply here in Ireland. It is a big experience for them to work in companies of that magnitude. They will be able to bring that experience back to Ireland with them when the time comes.

I was in the Gulf states - Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Qatar - last week. I was accompanied by representatives of 87 Irish companies who went there intending to gain new business or further existing business. We should look at the impact made by Glenbeigh, for instance. Philip Earle from Dublin has built a new unit for record storing and data collection at the entrance to the new Al Maktoum International Airport, which will cater for 120 million passengers a year. That project is being supervised and monitored from the company's headquarters in Dublin. There is significant potential for the number of jobs associated with it to grow in the time ahead. I also met Tim Clark of Emirates, which is doubling its number of flights coming in here on the basis of its assessment of the Irish market. When taken with the flights already offered by Etihad, this means that from September there will be 24 flights a week from Dublin to the Gulf states. That is very significant. Qatar is also interested in dealing with Shannon Airport.

It is clear that a series of Irish companies have done serious business or are in the process of following up on that. All of the 600 people I met in Dubai are there because they want to do business. Obviously, many of them want to come back after they have gained some experience. Saudi Arabia is in a slightly different position. It is the 19th largest economy in the world. It has a 2.7% debt and €700 billion in reserves. It has allocated €57 billion for education in 2014, in terms of colleges and buildings. A number of Irish people who have worked in the education sector are in Saudi Arabia to give advice on elements of the educational area. I discussed questions relating to Syria, including the implications for the general region of what is happening there, with the Crown Prince. I said that Saudi Arabia has been a very moderate voice in the pursuit of peace globally and regionally. I also made the point that Saudi Arabia has been elected to-----

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The Taoiseach must be joking.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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I will bring the Deputy back in.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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It is funding half of the jihadists in the world.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I referred to its views on regional peace in the Gulf states and that region and to its appointment to the human rights seat at the United Nations, which Ireland currently occupies. The Deputy might well laugh, but that is the forum for dealing with issues where human rights are concerned. The question of human rights in the general region was raised in those discussions. I have to say directly to the Deputy that Irish business people from 87 Irish companies, who want to do business in Saudi Arabia and in the Gulf states, were there because they believe they can create jobs here and in those areas. I make no apology for assisting them in their efforts to further job creation and grow our economy through what they do here.

It was quite a nostalgic and emotional moment for many when I had the opportunity to visit the Messines Ridge and the peace tower. This memorial was put together by Paddy Harte and Glen Barr many years ago. I visited many locations and scenes associated with what took place between 1914 and 1918. I saw the place where the German troops sang "Silent Night" and were responded to by the Allies. The local primary school choir sang "Silent Night" in the same spot while I was there. I saw many headstones with Irish names and I visited the Menin Gate, which commemorates over 50,000 soldiers, including three brothers from Dublin, who went missing in action and whose resting places were never found. I think this made an impact on me and on the British Prime Minister. I went to see the solitary grave of Willie Redmond, who was an MP for 32 years. He made the point, with regard to the 36th and 10th divisions, that we should think about the kind of country we could have if the joint spirit shown by Protestants and Catholics in fighting in the war could be united in the country.

We still talk about that issue, even arising from the recent Haass talks, and I believe the Prime Minister, Mr. Cameron, was struck by the impact of it. Visiting the peace tower, I was certainly struck by the symbolism of the instructions given by an Irish Army officer in respect of the protocol for the laying of wreaths and what was to be done. The Prime Minister subsequently visited a number of graves where members of his family, back along the line, are laid to rest.
In the context of the obscenity that was the First World War, it is important that people understand the implications of the book, The Sleepwalkers, which addressed the decisions taken by European countries subsequent to 1918 that led, if one likes, to the circumstances that erupted in the 1930s and resulted in the Second World War. This is clearly the reason we have the European Union. Irrespective of the arguments or discussions we may have, a European Union is needed for these reasons and in order that we never again witness the slaughter of 60 million people. If members have not visited Flanders, it is worth making a personal journey to see the names of young Irish people on the headstones, soldiers of the Great War who were lost in battle. They are not only just statistics but feature the names and addresses of people from Deputy Higgins's county, my county and every other county. I spoke to teachers who have brought students to Flanders over the years. This was my first visit and it made a powerful impact. It is a reason for engaging in discussion and negotiation on many matters.
In respect of the Moriarty tribunal, the reason provision is made for costs is that the sole member has indicated he expects the costs to be finalised very quickly. I have outlined for Deputy Higgins the different methods for assessing costs. I hope the matter will be finalised by the sole member as quickly as possible.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Is the figure in the Revised Estimate for the total costs of the Moriarty tribunal?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I understand some further costs will arise, although we do not yet have a figure for those.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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What is the likely magnitude of the additional costs?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I cannot say. A figure has been included for this year and the sole member of the tribunal is working on the issue. He has indicated he will be able to finalise the costs fairly soon.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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On what basis was the figure of €1.4 million included?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is on the basis of the cases to be decided by both divisions in respect of what will be the final costs. I cannot state that this will be the end of the matter. I expect there will be some further claims and costs.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Will they amount to €1 million or €2 million?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I cannot put a figure on it.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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That is not a satisfactory position.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If I knew the answer to the Deputy's question, I would give him it but I do not know the figure.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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Unless there are any further information or questions, we will conclude our consideration of the Revised Estimates. I thank the Taoiseach, the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Paul Kehoe, and their officials for assisting the sub-committee in our consideration of the Revised Estimates and programmes. As we have completed our consideration of the Revised Estimates for Votes 1 to 6, inclusive, the clerk to the committee will send a message to that effect to the Clerk of the Dáil. Under Standing Order 86(2) the message is deemed to be the report of the committee.