Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate Deputy McGrath not pirouetting on this issue, which is a serious one for the individuals concerned. We cannot deal with it simply on the basis that we must make a particular decision because representations have been made. We must make a decision in the public interest while also being conscious of the position of these individuals. I certainly recognise they are people with expertise who would be of value to the body when established. I do not know personally whether all 20 individuals who make up the 16 full-time equivalent positions would wish to be employed by the body. I am sure it is information which is readily ascertainable. We have been engaged in discussions with the Law Society and received its submissions on the issue.

The amendment tabled by Deputy Mac Lochlainn, which has been a useful focal point for discussing the issue, would not achieve his objective. His objective is that individuals be transferred to the body. His amendment states the Minister may permit the authority to appoint members of the Law Society's and the Bar Council's administrative staff with the requisite qualifications and whose positions would be displaced with the commencement of the authority. At present nothing prevents the authority recruiting or employing a member of the Law Society who does this work. I will come back to where I started on this; this would facilitate or ensure no barrier existed to an individual working in the Law Society in this area at present applying for a job and there would be no barrier to him or her being given the job, based on what the Deputy proposes, but what the Deputy proposes does not achieve what he is speaking about, which is providing for positions for all 20 individuals, if we assume all 20 would like them, within the body. It merely states there would be no barrier to them being recruited but does not provide for their recruitment. It does not achieve this objective.

This is an issue of complexity because from a human position we would all like to see individuals who do their job carefully retain their employment. There are complexities in this, which is we still have public service constraints in the context of new bodies coming into being. We are trying to reduce the number of bodies we have. It has been necessary to create a new body here. One means of staffing is through transfers from other parts of the public service where there are individuals with the relevant expertise who can be so transferred, and this keeps down expenditure which is important. Quite clearly this body will have to recruit some individuals of experience and expertise, and we do not have within the public service individuals who have worked in this particular area to any significant degree. This is an important issue.

I thank Deputies for allowing me to be able to go back to the Government and state there is support across all sides represented in the House for what is being proposed in this context. I am afraid it does not necessarily mean I will get sanction for it, but I will enter into further discussions with the Law Society on it. There are issues of importance to the individuals concerned to which Deputies have not adverted. These include issues relating to pensions. I do not have the detail of the pension positions with regard to their current employment, but quite clearly if they are party to private pension schemes these could not be continued when in the public service. This is an issue of complexity.

There are also issues with regard to redundancy legislation, in the context of what is being proposed. With regard to individuals employed at present by the Law Society, it is not like the takeover of a private company by another company. They could not be compelled to work for the legal services regulatory authority if they did not wish to do so. In circumstances in which their employment was terminated they would have certain redundancy entitlements. There is much complexity in this and it is not as simple, even if it were feasible in principle, as the Minister, Deputy Howlin, simply making a decision and it being effected, because it brings into play pension issues, redundancy legislation and the rights of each of the individuals concerned.

This has been a very helpful discussion in our continuing to see how we address the issue and I genuinely thank members for the discussion and for what they stated. I know I seem to do this with some regularity, but I invite Deputy Mac Lochlainn not to press his amendment because it would not achieve the objective he set out to achieve. It has achieved the objective of facilitating an important discussion on the issue. I will report back to the House on Report Stage. I cannot make a commitment that the legal services regulatory authority will take all of the individuals if they all wish to be taken. The commitment I can make is that I will further engage with the Law Society and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform on the issues and on some of the complex matters we have not discussed which I mentioned.