Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Regina Doherty. I welcome the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, and his officials to the meeting. The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the revised Estimates and the supplementary performance information on the outputs and impacts of programme expenditure. I know there is a meeting of the Committee of Public Account and our schedule runs in line to accommodate Members who are members also of the Committee of Public Accounts. A draft timetable for the meeting has been circulated. Is the timetable agreed?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps we will group our questions within the time limit.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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There will be some flexibility. Is the timetable agreed? Agreed. I call on the Minister to make his opening statement.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I welcome everyone back and wish them a happy new year.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to present the 2014 Estimates for my Department’s group of Votes that have been outlined by the Chairman. The group comprises a sizeable number of Votes including the following: the Vote for the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform; a new Vote for the Office of Government Procurement; the Vote for shared services that was introduced for the first time last year and is now expanding as we produce more shared services; the Votes for a number of offices under the aegis of my Department including the State Laboratory, the Public Appointments Service, the Valuation Office and the Office of the Ombudsman; and, finally, the Votes for superannuation and retired allowances that provides for Civil Service pensions and, everybody's favourite, the Secret Service. The Vote for the remaining element of the PER group – the Office of Public Works – will be taken separately by my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes.

I wish to draw the attention of the committee to the fact that the 2014 Estimate for my Department has been kept at the 2013 level by savings being driven in certain areas. This has meant that the additional costs associated with the initial funding of the Office of the National Lottery Regulator, that will come into being this year, could be absorbed within existing resources. Similarly, employee numbers in the Department have been maintained at 2013 levels while additional services have been delivered, for example, in the Office of the Government Chief Information Officer.

The PER Vote comprises two programmes as the name of the Department indicates – public expenditure and sectoral policy and public service management and reform. The key outputs of the first programme includes the provision of advice on sustainable current and capital expenditure policy, the promotion of a stronger focus on value for money and performance information and the implementation of policies to reduce public service numbers.

Overall net expenditure for 2013 was kept at €43.1 billion which is well within the target of €43.4 billion that we set for the year and represented a net underspend of €321 million for 2013. Year-on-year net expenditure last year was 4.2% or €1.9 billion lower than in 2012. This continues the strong trend of expenditure control that we have laid out.

Last year I spelt out at some length to the committee what my Department had introduced by way of structural reform of the Estimates process. These included performance monitoring and reporting, the formulation of a new public spending code and the establishment of the Government economic and evaluation service. I also made specific reference to the proposed introduction of a multiannual expenditure framework. I indicated that the objective of the new framework was to allow for sensible, structural planning and prioritisation within each area of public expenditure.

In 2013, I introduced the legislation that underpins the new framework and implements the wider fiscal reform measures that have been introduced across EU member states generally. The legislation puts into operation the expenditure management component of the so-called six pack of five directives and one regulation that introduced, among other things, an expenditure benchmark. The purpose of the benchmark is to set a multiannual upper limit on general Government expenditure. It means that states will have to monitor and control public spending developments in line with a realistic potential GDP growth over the medium-term.

The expenditure benchmark is the core expenditure rule with which the Government and the State are legally obliged to comply in the annual and multiannual budgetary processes, by virtue of the direct effect of the regulation and the inherent supremacy of EU law. Under the benchmark the Government expenditure ceiling places a limit on the level of our total annual gross voted expenditure. That ceiling is then apportioned into individual ministerial expenditure ceilings for both current and capital for the next three years in each Department, as Deputies know. The ceilings for 2014, 2015 and 2016 were published in the Expenditure Report 2014 on budget day 2013.

This is a new top down approach to budgeting. In the past, expenditure growth was, at times, allowed to outpace the economy’s underlying ability to finance it. The new approach radically changes the Estimates process and introduces a major reform by setting out the Government’s medium term budgetary plans and overall spending allocations clearly over time, thereby allowing Departments to plan their budget structure in advance. In that context, the Government has indicated that in the course of 2014, it will undertake comprehensive reviews of both current and capital expenditure. As Deputies will remember, we carried out a comprehensive review of expenditure in 2011. I am interested in talking about, at some length, later in the year on how the committee might involve itself in the process.

The reviews will involve an in depth examination of public expenditure. They will allow the Government to recalibrate the expenditure ceilings published on budget day in line with changing priorities and informed by evaluations of how public resources are being used. The focus of the reviews will be on ensuring that public resources are used in an efficient way to deliver effective services. I must emphasise that the overriding function of the process is to ensure that we spend the resources available to fund services in the best possible way. Given the fiscal challenges that Ireland continues to face, and in order to meet the pressing targets required to restore the sustainability of the public finances, the Government is required to make difficult choices and enforce prioritisation across all areas. We want to do so in an as open a manner as possible.

In summary, the process of reducing the total level of spending must be complemented with a more nuanced approach to focus on attaining the right balance of expenditure. The review process will commence over the coming weeks.

My Department's second programme is public service management and reform. Just over two years have passed since the Government’s first public service reform plan was published in November 2011. Substantial progress has been made across a range of areas in terms of reducing costs, delivering better value for money and improving services. Details of progress are set out on the second progress report on implementation of the plan that I published yesterday and I hope all Deputies will have received same today.

There is a need to constantly update our plans and revise our objectives to ensure that the reform agenda remains ambitious and relevant so that we do not lose momentum. In this context a new wave of public service reform was also published yesterday in tandem with the progress report. We will build on progress and set out the Government’s ambition for reform over the coming years. It outlines the key cross-cutting and sectoral reform initiatives that will be implemented over the next three years. It also looks further forward to address the ambition for reform towards 2020.

As well as continuing to drive efficiencies and cost savings across the public service, the new reform plan will have a strengthened focus on achieving better outcomes for service users, that is citizens and businesses. This will be centred on using alternative models of service delivery and will change the way the public service designs and delivers services.

The new plan has placed particular emphasis on making use of digitalisation and open data. A new Government ICT strategy will be published in the first half of this year. It will address the use of new and emerging technologies, ensuring that e-Government is designed around real needs and takes steps to improve take-up of digital government. The plan has also addressed a wide range of other issues. These include the implementation of shared service models; the evaluation of new business models for the delivery of non-core services; the reform of public procurement; property rationalisation; strengthening leadership; and human resource management reforms. We do not have the time today to go into the specific detail of the new reform plan. However, I have already written to the Chairman with an offer to meet the committee, whenever there is a time slot available, in the coming weeks to discuss the reform programme in detail.

The reform and delivery office, RDO, established within my Department is overseeing and driving the reform programme. It is sometimes necessary to invest in the short-term which will be something that we will deal with when discussing money. We need to pay upfront in order to make savings into the future. It is for this reason that the RDO has been allocated €1.8 million in 2014 for the reform agenda fund. The RDO funding will support a series of reform projects and initiatives, including some of those set out in the new public service reform plan. Funds will also be used to source necessary technical and expert support, on a temporary basis, as well as increasing programme management and programme delivery capacity and capability.

As part of the implementation of the public service reform plan, the RDO has initiated a cross-departmental process to renew and refresh the vision and strategy for the Civil Service in order to ensure that the sector as a whole has the capacity, capability and commitment required to successfully meet the challenges it currently faces and will face in future. The programme is led by a cross-departmental Civil Service task force that is in the process of refining ideas and proposals. It will develop final recommendations with a view to publication in the first half of 2014.

The Haddington Road agreement sets out a number of equitable and sustainable measures to deliver a further reduction of €1 billion in the public service pay and pensions bill by 2016. It will enable the delivery of the next stage of the Government’s ambitious reform agenda as set out in the reform plan. The implementation of these measures is well advanced and the agreement is already delivering on its objectives. As we outlined our target, savings of €300 million were incorporated into the Votes last year and achieved. It represents a real and tangible reduction in expenditure.

While these monetary targets are important, we must also remember some of the other key benefits of the agreement go beyond mere monetary implications. It provides us with the scope to progress the reform agenda and to deliver unprecedented increases in productivity across the public service, specifically, the provision of an additional 15 million hours across all sectors of the public service.
We must make the most of the opportunities which the Haddington Road agreement affords us. On foot of our successful exit from the EU-IMF programme, the challenge of meeting our fiscal targets will remain. Managers throughout the public service need to be fully aware that further consolidation is required and in this context make full use of the range of options available to ensure resources are used efficiently and effectively. This will include the full use of the 15 million additional hours already mentioned.
Finally, it would be remiss of me and the Government not to acknowledge that the savings sought and delivered from the public service pay and pensions bill are extremely difficult and challenging for all public servants. I thank public servants. Many people said they would not vote for the Haddington Road agreement. Forty unions have done that for which I compliment them. However, the reductions achieved and required are a necessary and significant contribution to the fiscal consolidation process to bring our expenditure deficit under control in line with our targets.
In addition to progress in public service reform, we have been pursuing a wide-ranging political reform agenda. This is aimed at delivering open, accountable and ethical government underpinned by a transparent, efficient and effective public system to rebuild trust in government and in the institutions of the State. Many of the commitments in the area of political reform set out in the programme for Government and in the public service reform plan are now in delivery phase - this committee is involved in many of them - and real progress is being made on several different fronts including, for example the Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Act 2013 which was enacted in July and commenced in September 2013, the Protected Disclosures Bill 2013 and the Freedom of Information Bill 2013.
The committee has been supplied with detailed background briefing by my Department’s officials on the various Votes in the Public Expenditure and Reform group. I wish, however, to refer specifically to a number of Votes, including Vote 18 (shared services). A provision of €30.6 million is sought for Vote 18 (shared services), compared to €20.6 million last year. The increase in the allocation reflects that PeoplePoint, the HR shared service established in 2013, will be in operation for a full year while the payroll shared services centre will be coming onstream during the course of the year.
A new Vote, Vote 41 for the Office of Government Procurement is being introduced and a net funding allocation of €12.431 million is sought for 2014. This represents a transfer of resources from my own Department, and from the Office of Public Works, where the procurement function currently resides of some €7 million, which represents the funding of the National Public Procurement Policy Unit and National Procurement Service. A further €5.5 million will be required in 2014 for the up-front costs associated with premises,systems, and for additional staffing.
Reform of public procurement is one of the major projects of the reform strategy. Procurement of supplies and services accounts for around €9 billion of current spending by the State per annum. This represents a very significant portion of overall spending and it is, therefore, essential that the public service achieves maximum value for money and operational efficiency in its approach to public procurement. A key element of the public service reform agenda is to reduce costs and achieve bettervalue for money through reform of public procurement. To this end, the Government established the Office of Government Procurement under the direction of the chief procurement officer. This new office is targeted with and has planned for the implementation of centralised procurement services to deliver savings of up to €500 million over the next three years. A target of €127 million in savings in procurement has been set for 2014. These savings will be delivered through price reductions, management of specifications and demand management. This office will work within EU regulations to support the Irish SME sector, which is very important - a point raised by many Deputies - to identify the challenges for SMEs when transacting business with the public service and, most importantly, to come up with practical solutions to these challenges where possible.
I thank the Chairman and members for their attention. I commend the Estimates to the committee. I will be happy to answer any questions which may arise.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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If members wish, I can afford them the time to make a brief opening statement.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will make all my remarks in a single intervention. Perhaps Deputy Mary Lou McDonald would be able to ask all her questions together.

I note in his opening address the Minister stated the Government has indicated that in the course of 2014 it will undertake comprehensive reviews of both current and capital expenditure.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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A new CRE.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That will be done in advance of the budget. I presume that will allow increases in expenditure ceiling. Will the deficit targets still remain the same?

I have a number of specific questions on the Estimates, which flow from the Department's briefing document. The Minister has tried to create the impression that things are at the same level, but the provisional outturn last year was €32.9 million whereas the Estimate for this year is €35.9 million, an increase of €3 million or 9%. There has been a 10% increase in the Department's expenditure. Where will the savings materialise? I understand there will be major increases in Vote 18 (Shared Services) and Vote 41 (Office of Public Procurement) but have savings been made somewhere else in the system to compensate or will they arise in three or four years' time?

I wish to question the Minister on the grant to the ESRI, which is a registered charity and is covered by the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest, FEMPI, legislation. The ESRI has a total income of €10.5 million and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform provides funding of €2.6 million or about a quarter of its funding. What measures has he taken to ensure that the staff of the ESRI do not receive top ups to their salaries from the non-Government money they receive? Will he outline the details of the staff pension scheme? I understand that ESRI pension scheme is similar to the public service pension scheme, notwithstanding that only one-quarter of its funding comes from the Minister's Department. Why would the taxpayer be asked to provide a fully funded pension scheme, the equivalent of a defined benefit scheme for the ESRI, given that a quarter of the funding comes directly from an Oireachtas Vote?

I could put the same question to the Minister in respect of the Institute of Public Administration. The IPA has annual income of the order of €10 million to €11 million, of which one third is funded by the Department, but the taxpayer is underwriting 100% of the staff pensions. This is akin to what we have seen in some of the other organisations and registered charities in the health sector, where the State provides significant funding but the organisation also has substantial income from other sources. In light of the recent controversy, what measures has the Minister taken to ensure nobody received top up payments? I am not suggesting there are top-ups, as I have no basis to do so, but has the Minister taken steps to reassure himself that this is not case?

Will he explain why there should be a fully-funded pension scheme for an organisation where, in the case of both organisations, only 25% of their income comes from his Department?

I have a simple question on the regional assemblies. The Minister might outline the changes. How does the change in the regional assembly structure impinge on the Estimate?

The Minister is setting up a new office of the national lottery regulator for which he is allowing €552,000. I want him to break this figure down and tell us about the consultancy involved. I hope the Minister will micro-manage that, unlike his colleague who does not think such new offices or organisations should be micro-managed. This is taxpayers' money.

On the Valuation Office, we all will be aware that the country needs to be revalued because many areas were valued at the height of the boom. The legislation is still in the Seanad and has not yet come to the Dáil. What are the implications? Will they be able to speed up the process? Is there to be a 20-year programme before some counties get revalued?

With regard to the Ombudsman's office, Vote 19, as the Minister correctly states in the briefing documentation, there are 180 new bodies coming under the Ombudsman's remit, including the new Freedom of Information Bill 2013, whenever the Minister comes back to us on Report Stage and drops his increases in search and retrieval charges. The Minister also mentions there are new staff required under the regulation of lobbying Bill, but that has not yet even been published. He might give us a timescale on that. Given all that extra responsibility for the Ombudsman, there is an increase in the overall Ombudsman's office that covers the Standards in Public Office, SIPO, Commission and all those organisations as well, in the order of €1 million. It does not seem a great deal for all the extra work the Minister seems to be giving the office.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I thank the Deputy. It is helpful to have a dialogue rather than go through items but I am in the hands of the committee.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Let me answer the questions in general terms first.

Deputy Sean Fleming asked about the new comprehensive review of expenditure, CRE. We stated it would be every three years. It should be a permanent feature that there should be a review of expenditure. We conducted the first one in 2011 and I would be anxious to hear the committee's views in its regard. Ultimately, if the new budgetary system is going to work, it cannot be simply monitoring the expenditure. It has to be making an input into what the expenditure is intended to do. We will work with the committee to see how we can model the process of expenditure review over the next few weeks. We will get it up and running, and see how we can create it.

At the end of the day, the deficit targets that we set out in the medium-term economic plan remain unaltered. Clearly we hope that the evident recovery will be sustained. There are some good indications, even today, in terms of good consumer confidence - car sales in the first couple of weeks of the year are good. That might give us additional tax buoyancy and indicate that there will be greater growth than we anticipated because there are more optimistic projections of growth emerging. We will see what resources the State has and we will engage in dialogue with the committee on what is the appropriate balance of spend, but the deficit targets that we set through the medium-term economic plan must be indicated.

The Deputy mentioned the difference between the outturn figures and the Estimate figures. The net Estimate figure for both divisions of the Department, the public expenditure and sectoral policy, PESP, and public service management and reform, PSMR, we set out at the beginning was €35.737 million. The outturn was €32.883 million and the new Estimate we propose is €35.898 million. The increase, compared to the original Estimate, is €161,000, which is a fraction of 1% and keeps the Estimate particularly flat.

We did not spend the Estimate in full because we made savings and I will outline them. Some €1 million of the savings are on the pay bill, driven mainly by staff who left the Department who we have not yet replaced or who are on long-term secondment. Therefore, there is €1 million in payroll savings. There is €850,000 on PEACE-INTERREG subhead. That arises out of uncertainty about the timing of project and the drawdown of funding. We did not expend €850,000 on PEACE and INTERREG. There was another €700,000 on the reform agenda unspent last year and approximately €500,000 on surplus appropriations-in-aid. We got more appropriations-in-aid than had been anticipated.

Notwithstanding the increase in the volume of work, particularly in the two areas the Deputy mentioned, specifically the second in regard to the development and expansion of shared services, the development of the Chief Information Officer and the development of the role of the Office of Government Procurement, which have ambitious targets to be met this year, we estimate we will do it for the same money that we allocated at the beginning of last year.

On Vote 18, Shared Services, and the Vote on the Office of Government Procurement, Deputy Fleming asks a reasonable question. If one will have shared services, one is centralising and there is a cost to do so but there will be a saving elsewhere. The Deputy inquired about that. We will identify that for him. It is more manifest in those that we have up and running. We cannot say in terms of the payroll shared service, because it is not yet up and running, from where staff will migrate and what Departments will second staff into this new department. There will be payroll savings in the payment Departments that transfer the staff into the new shared service.

Deputy Fleming asked a number of specific questions on both the ESRI and the IPA, on some of which I need to come back to him because they involve such level of specificity. I am told that both pay receipts to my Department, through appropriations-in-aid, of approximately €1.2 million between pension levy deductions and pension deductions.

The Deputy asked a question about top-ups. We wrote to all subsidiary bodies of this Department, as requested by the Committee of Public Accounts, and are compiling our returns. There is a general regulation that we do not provide for or allow top-ups. We undertook to come back to the Committee of Public Accounts in that regard. We will do so and perhaps include the committee, if it is interested, in our findings in that regard. Both bodies are State agencies for pension purposes and provide public service pensions accordingly.

As Deputy Fleming will be aware, under the Act the Office of National Lottery Regulator will be self-funding but it can only start funding itself from the time that the licence becomes operable, which will be towards the latter portion of this year. I am making a provision now through the Estimate to ensure that it is in place in good time for the establishment of the new national lottery regime.

The Deputy asked the total consultancy fees that were paid to Davy, the main consultant on the national lottery sale. I do not have the figure directly before me. Someone will correct me if I am wrong, as I am going from memory rather than digging into my own brief here. As the Deputy will be aware, it was a complex arrangement. It was of the order of €1.4 million. When one considers that the sale price that we got was €405 million, to do that well was an important and successful use of the skills-base which was used to supplement the internal departmental skills-base.

The Deputy asked two further questions, one of which was on the valuation process that is being rolled out. The Deputy knows there is a new valuation Bill. It will provide for a number of processes, including self-valuation. There will have to be a process to verify that. We want to make the system more efficient.

With regard to the revaluation process, the big mistake was that there was no revaluation for a very long period. The areas I have examined in regard to the revaluation demonstrate a 50:50 ratio. Approximately the same quantum in terms of money is associated with those who have been valued up and those who have been valued down. Needless to say, those who have been revalued down significantly, often in the hospitality sector, want the revaluation applied immediately. Those revalued up want a significant delay in application. All of this has implications for the income level of local authorities, which must proceed in a structured way. We are rolling out the revaluation and the new legislation will simplify the process and quicken the pace.

The last question the Deputy asked was on the Office of the Ombudsman. The new Ombudsman Act has greatly expanded the role of the Ombudsman. SIPO has expanded its role and we have acknowledged that by apportioning additional staff and allocating the bones of €1 million extra to the Office of the Ombudsman. We must obviously keep this under review. We talk to the Ombudsman all the time. We had very close contact with the previous Ombudsman and her staff in regard to the enactment of the legislation. She was happy to take it on using existing resources. We want to make sure the process is efficient and this depends on the quantum of business. I am sure the committee will want to do this.

I was asked about particular Bills. The Freedom of Information Bill is expected to be enacted in this session. I will be tabling Report Stage amendments. I have been thinking very deeply about it. We have done a lot of research on foot of the very good and helpful advices given by Members on Committee Stage.

The lobbying legislation will be published in this session. In the Dáil, we must complete the legislation on the reduction in the leader's allowance and the requirement to have the Independents' money vouched. I want that enacted this session. It will be the first Bill and it will be dealt with in the House in the next fortnight. During the following week, it is expected that we will take the lobbying Bill. I will give the members firm dates for the introduction of the Bills.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have some brief supplementary questions. I thank the Minister for the specifics. With regard to the ESRI and the IPA, I have no basis for suggesting there are any top-ups or something out of order but I just want confirmation. It is interesting that the Minister said the Committee of Public Accounts has asked him to engage on this matter. We should not be asked to vote in the Dáil on the Estimate with unanswered questions.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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If we have not got a written answer, I will get my office to ring those concerned.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The covers the top-up-type issue.

Consider the pensions provided by the two organisations. The Comptroller and Auditor General produces the audited accounts of the ESRI. He makes the point that the Financial Measures (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 deals with pensions and enables the Minister for Finance to make good any deficiency in the relevant pension scheme if contributions paid by members or the employer are insufficient to meet the obligations of the scheme. Given that but 25% of the money of the two organisations is provided directly by a Vote of this House, and 75% of funds come from other sources, why would an organisation such as the ESRI have pensions guaranteed in the order of 100% by the Minister for Finance? These are some of the issues that arise in the health sector. I refer to the section 38 hospitals and the section 39 agreements. Organisations in the health sector, which is one of the biggest, do not say that the pension should be guaranteed in the order of 100% by the Minister if only 25% of funding comes directly from an Oireachtas Vote. I would like the Minister to revert to us on that.

With regard to lottery regulation, the Minister gave me no breakdown on the €552,000. If he does not have it to hand, we would like him to send it on to us. The figure did not come out of thin air as it seems to have been calculated for some reason. There was one case this week of a Minister not micro-managing a new organisation. We do not want to let this become another one. The Minister might tell us the position on the sale of the lottery. Is it completed?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The ESRI's pension scheme was taken under the remit of the State at the same time as the university pension schemes were dealt with by the previous Administration. I am advised in respect of the ESRI and IPA that the net contribution they make to the State, which we take in as appropriations-in-aid, is greater than the cost of pensions. Therefore, there is a net benefit to us in current terms but, obviously, one must account for the actuarial cost. The ESRI was taken in as part of the academic infrastructure when the universities were dealt with. The IPA, again a State agency, always had a pension guaranteed by the State. This has been the case since its inception and remains the case. Currently, more is being paid than received, with a net benefit to my Department.

With regard to the national lottery, I will send the Deputy a specific breakdown on the €500,000 set-up cost. Under the legislation, once commenced, that is to be funded by the new licensee. We must make provision such that the arrangement will be in place in advance of the set-up. The new franchisee or licence holder is expected to be operational towards the end of this year, as I indicated. The Deputy will remember we said we would take the payment in two moieties. Both the first €200 million and the second €200 million will now be paid this year. We will ring-fence the second payment for the National Children's Hospital. The final contractual work has been done. As the Deputy will remember, there were some negotiations in the Labour Court on staffing. A Labour Court recommendation, recommended by the unions, is being voted on. All matters will be finalised in the coming weeks.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Can we turn to Vote 12, on superannuation and retired allowances? It is the Minister's intention to remove an additional 10,000 workers from the public service between now and 2015. I wish to know the manner in which that adjustment, consolidation or haemorrhage – I am trying to avoid loaded language – is accommodated or accounted for in these figures.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will give the Deputy as much information as I can on what we are doing. As she knows, there has been very significant downsizing of the public service. Some 10% of staff, or 30,000, have left.

We have made payroll savings from peak to the end of last year of €3.4 billion, a quantum of 17.7%. There is no other place in Europe that has been as successful in downsizing pay and pensions, as well as numbers, in an atmosphere of industrial calm and peace. That is a great credit to the public service.

The improving situation, as we make savings, will allow us to deploy a reform dividend. For example, the Government agreed to recruit gardaí again. We will have a significant number of new teachers in place this year, as well as special needs assistants. The numbers issued will not be necessarily as clear cut. We have been driving savings through a number of reduction processes. When we deploy all the available procedures under the Haddington Road agreement, we will be making significant savings of the order of €1 billion. We want to redeploy some of that to supplement front-line staff such as gardaí, teachers and SNAs. There may be others in areas where there are critical pressures when we look at it.

The age profile of the Civil Service and public service is an issue of which we must be mindful. We need younger people to come into the services in order that we do not have an age deficit in the future. The superannuation and retirement allowance for the Civil Service will provide for the payment of pensions, lump sums and death gratuities that we envisage during 2014.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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First, I am assuming the figures for the reductions of staff numbers and the €3.4 billion in payroll savings, 17.7%, are not net of pension payments, lumps sums, gratuities and so on but gross. If they are net, when one does the maths, the savings do not seem as spectacular.

Will the Minister be advancing a programme through the Civil Service and public service which will see the reduction of 10,000 posts between now and 2015?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We are working on a specific numbers policy rather than a crude simple head count reduction. We are at the stage where there are pressure points which I am relieving in the way I indicated earlier. In the plan I published yesterday, there are good graphs on public service employment per thousand, public pay and pensions reduction through a profile from peak to the end of last year and other achievements.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is all very good but that is not my point. It is important the Minister gives the committee more detail of his intentions with this public service reform programme. He said himself his policy will be specific rather than a crude and simple head count reduction.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is crude in the context that we had a recruitment moratorium-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but it is crude in the context that these reductions have not just created pressure points in some parts of front-line services but have resulted in chaos and difficulties for people accessing the very services. All Oireachtas Members know about this.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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What is the Deputy’s question?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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If the Minister is changing his approach to a more specific policy, it is important we know when we will have the revised targets and plans.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I do not want to indicate that there is going to be a great relaxation of numbers. However, I want, through rational discussion as we improve our capacity, to look at real pressure points and relieve them. I am not aware of any chaos in the public service. Will the Deputy tell me of this chaos of which she has discerned?

The outturn numbers for the end of 2013 are 288,840. The overall target for this year is 287,000. That is the same target we set for last year. It means we have some flexibility. If one looks at the age profile of civil and public servants, because we have not been recruiting, a significant number of people are retiring. This gives us opportunities to recruit in a structured way. Towards the end of last year, I asked my Cabinet colleagues to look not only at their own Departments but agencies under their remit to see if there are surplus staff. There are some areas with surplus staff with other areas under pressure. This would allow us to offer redeployment, under the terms of the Haddington Road agreement, or voluntary redundancy schemes in those areas where redeployment does not suit.

We have had considerable redeployment in many areas. This morning on radio, I gave the example of where we needed more people working in the Garda vetting unit in Tipperary but there were surplus staff in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine office in the same county. We transferred staff from the latter to the former on a voluntary basis. Similarly, we moved surplus public servants from Tralee to a payroll centre in Killarney in order that they could be redeployed in their own county.

I have a slightly more relaxed focus on numbers but, obviously, we need to reach our targets in moneys rather than numbers. Ministers, as well as many Deputies, have repeatedly told me that the crudeness of a recruitment moratorium is often not good policy. For instance, someone senior who retires could actually be better replaced by two more junior people. However, that would run foul of the numbers issue but not of the pay savings issue. That is the flexibility I am trying to manage now. There is a little more flexibility as we emerge from the critical phase of restoring our public finances.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is as clear as mud.

I do not know if the Minister has visited many of our hospitals or spoken to people who have applied for various social welfare payments and await a response. That represents a significant level of chaos for those concerned. An example of a chaotic situation, which fortunately was resolved, is the mess created by the centralisation of the medical card service to Finglas.

I presume the HSE administration is one of the areas in which excess numbers would be seen. If I picked him up correctly, the Minister stated in an interview prior to Christmas that he will consider using money from the sale of State assets to cover the potential cost of an early retirement scheme or a voluntary redundancy scheme. I understand his statement was specifically directed at the HSE. I ask him to clarify whether this is still part of his plans and if he continues to regard the proceeds from the sale of State assets as potentially creating a fund for financing schemes of this nature. Perhaps I misunderstood him but I do not think I did.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I do not know if the Deputy has had an opportunity to read the reform plan in detail. It is a radical and dramatic plan to change the way in which services are delivered. She touched on some aspects of it. The old idea was that one throws money or bodies at a problem and things get better. The process of applying for a medical card should not be much different from applying for an airline ticket or other tasks that can be done online. We are examining the 20 biggest processes in the public service by volume to make them more accessible to people. We have rolled out 500,000 public service cards and an additional 900,000 cards will issue during the course of this year. People should be able to access public services online more easily in future. That is the way many people access services in the private sphere. We want to make sure they can do likewise in the public sphere. Many people who were involved in these processes may not be required. If the Deputy goes into a bank or an airport, she will not see same quantum of people who were previously doing things that can now be done electronically. We are anxious to provide for that back level of support.

I think we will agree that the HSE was structured in a chaotic fashion whereby a superstructure was put on top of an existing health board structure without any clarity in regard to function. That resulted in a lack of function and, sometimes, dysfunction. We need to change that and the Minister for Health is involved in that process. It is indicated that the quantum of people who work in the HSE and, probably, the Department of Health include people who are surplus to requirement. They can be redeployed or, where they cannot be redeployed, the HSE will tell me there are specific people for whom there is no job on the administrative side. Similarly, the Department of Education and Skills may tell me there are surplus people in the rationalised education and training boards. If we need to provide money for targeted voluntary redundancy schemes, I am willing to investigate where we can fund them.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister stated that he envisaged money from the sale of State assets being used to finance such a scheme.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I was asked a question in a public interview. Money is scarce but if I thought we could make significant long-term savings that reduced the demand on the public purse by targeting some money from the sale of State assets at a voluntary redundancy scheme, I would consider it.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is that not ironic? His big claim for the virtue of selling State assets was the deal he had hatched with the troika to invest in job creation. It would be something of a turnaround were he to access the money for a voluntary redundancy scheme. I raise the issue because it is a marked departure from what he has been saying about the use of proceeds from the sale of State assets. Has the matter been discussed at Cabinet or is it just the Minister's personal view?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am open to discussing any idea and to hearing views. We are working through a crisis and I want to see what good ideas can be suggested. If people are drawing down a permanent salary on the public payroll, even they do not have a job to do, it is better that they move on. If we need to find the resources that allow them to move on, that would be a good thing. Let us see where we can find the money, if such people exist and are identified by State agencies.

On the Deputy's broader question of the sale of State assets, we have deployed the first €200 million from the National Lottery licence to job creation. We have allocated additional funds for county roads, retrofitting local authority houses and constructing new schools. These are the areas in which I want to continue investing but I am open to suggestions on ways to improve not only job creation capacity throughout the country but also the efficiency of the public service and public servants to give us a pool of money that we can deploy in the medium term to improve the services this country needs.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I did not actually ask that broader question but I thank the Minister for his comments none the less. In regard to Vote 17, on the Public Appointments Service and the moratorium on recruitment, I ask about the use of the JobBridge scheme. I refer specifically to the statute law revision programme, which is led and managed by two legal professionals as project director and manager, who are engaged under contract with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Three researchers took up placements under JobBridge to carry out a very important technical and, perhaps, expert task. Over 2012 and 2013, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform took on 21 JobBridge interns to carry out this legal and research work. I do not have figures for other Departments but I am interested in getting them. I understand the individuals concerned were taken on to do a piece of work and were then replaced. I raise the issue because this is clearly a project that needs to be completed and there is a gap in the system for people who are qualified. I ask the Minister why he opted to use the JobBridge scheme to access these researchers.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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JobBridge is a useful scheme for getting people who are unemployed into useful employment. We took over the statute law revision programme from the Office of the Attorney General.

It was a pilot scheme in the Office of the Attorney General to examine old statute law. The first two significant bodies of legislation repealing old statute law have been enacted by the Oireachtas. The final bit is under way and I hope to have it before the Oireachtas this year. The net question is whether we should do this with full-time staff rather than JobBridge people. There is no lack of enthusiastic law graduates and researchers who want the experience of working with the Office of the Attorney General and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform on this project. It is very valuable experience which is an enabler for them to progress in their career path. This is what JobBridge is about, to give people a start with something that looks good on their CV and gives them experience in a practical working environment. People want to do this.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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How much do they earn weekly for this?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I do not have details on the JobBridge payment off the top of my head but we will get them for the Deputy. The Deputy probably knows what they are. I do not know.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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There you are.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Many people who have participated in the scheme do not have the rosy view of it portrayed by the Minister.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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No, but these people do and-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Has the Deputy spoken to any of them?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Minister? He is the line Minister.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Yes, I have spoken to all of them.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Tell me where do they go? Were any of them offered further work with the Department? Are they in permanent employment now?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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As the Deputy knows, the general rule is that more than 40% of the people involved in JobBridge have gone into full-time employment before their internship ended. The figure is 65%. We need to ensure people have opportunities at a time of significant unemployment. I do not know whether the Deputy is just philosophically opposed to the concept of JobBridge. I have dealt with examples where there has been a misuse of JobBridge but this is not one of them.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I can tell the Minister I am philosophically and politically opposed to the misuse, and I view it as an exploitation of the very people to whom the Minister referred to carry out work on behalf of the State for such a paltry payment. There are other ways internships can be offered and give this level of experience to people. The Minister conceded that downsizing and headcount reduction to achieve savings is a crude policy, and equally the ongoing moratorium in terms of recruitment into the public service and Civil Service is, by definition, a crude instrument. Crudest of all is the use of a scheme such as this to do work which results in legislation coming before the Houses of the Oireachtas. I am surprised that as a member of the Labour Party the Minister did not look askance at it. I do not have figures on the use of the scheme in other Departments but it would be interesting to have a look at them.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will reply by simply stating I disagree with the Deputy.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We will agree to disagree.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Allow me to reply at least. We need to think outside the box in terms of significant unemployment. We could allow people to be excluded from work where we could not provide numbers. The Deputy is correct there was a crudeness about some of what we had to do, such as the moratorium, but these measures were necessary because the very economic survival of the country's depended on us balancing the books. Where we did not have the money to pay people on a full-time basis we had two options, one of which was not to do the work, and the statute law revision programme is not absolutely essential. It is the analysis of defunct legislation so we can take it off the Statute Book and make the Statute Book an easier job of work. It is good and important work. We have a waiting list of people and a competition for people to get into this. People want to do it. It is extraordinarily valuable work. I have met them and they are enthusiastic about it. They move on with the fact they worked in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform or with the Office of the Attorney General on their CVs and it is important. I simply think the Deputy is wrong in feeling people would be better off being excluded or on a make-work scheme where they do not do valuable stuff because it must be paid so they are given makey-uppy work, unreal work or unuseful work and this becomes acceptable. I do not know which of the two, whether there should be no JobBridge scheme or makey-uppy work JobBridge, is-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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No, my assertion is quite simple, that people should be paid properly for the work they do.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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So then we would not have any JobBridge scheme-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is not complicated.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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No, it is very simple; the Deputy's view is one lets people sit at home and exclude them from it.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Far from it.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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When one does not have the wherewithal or capacity to pay people they are left at home. Is this what the Deputy states?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Far from it but-----

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Next question Deputy.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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My next point relates to something which interests me which the Minister had to say in respect of the Office of Government Procurement. Towards the end of his comments the Minister stated the office will work within EU regulations to support the Irish small and medium enterprise sector to identify challenges for them when transacting business with the public service and, most importantly, to come up with practical solutions to these challenges where possible. These are very positive statements and are very welcome but will the Minister elaborate on what exactly they mean in practical terms? I have dealt with any number of SMEs and microbusinesses in respect of the procurement process and some of the large projects, not least the development at Grangegorman. I am aware that whereas people understand the need for efficiency to save money and to respect EU directives and law there is an anxiety among many people in the sector that they do not get the type of access they need to win work themselves and, as a consequence, to produce more jobs. Mr. Quinn is familiar and in charge in a practical sense of much of this. Will the Minister elaborate on what the sentiment in his remarks means practically?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Measures on procurement are some of the most ambitious we want to take. We carried out a comprehensive review to examine procurement and we found extraordinary anomalies whereby various agencies of the State bought the same products from the same companies at different prices. There were some cosy arrangements at local level. We need to have value for money for the State. We want to make these changes and we have ambitious money target savings of €500 million over the next three years, and €127 million this year alone, out of the €9 billion we spend on non-property procurement. We have examined approximately 60% of this spend which we believe can be targeted and done in a better way. The Office of Government Procurement is the new co-ordinated State agency to provide pan-governmental procurement on a professional basis. We are very conscious in doing this to ensure we bring the SME sector with us. We did not want to create a volume of contracts which would exclude individual SMEs. We and the Office of Government Procurement have had discussions with the SME organisations. We must comply with national and EU procurement directives and law. We have a number of initiatives and discussions including the provision of an e-tender site and alerts to SMEs on goods, services and works that will go to tender. At present 97,000 suppliers are registered on our e-tender site and we have engaged with them. We want to reduce the barriers for SMEs to be able to tender. We want to ensure in every area of work we have standard systems and documentation to reduce red tape. We have group discussions with the SME sector to ensure this will work. If the Deputy and Chairman wish, I am happy for Mr. Quinn to elaborate on the specifics because he has been involved in it.

Mr. Paul Quinn:

We are taking quite a number of steps, and the Minister already mentioned standardisation.

We are taking quite a number of measures in this space. The Minister mentioned standardisation. As we centralise our procurement further, we will have more consistency, since there will be fewer people running procurement processes. The work will be concentrated in a professional group of procurers. Making judgments on, for example, turnover and insurance requirements can cause problems for small to medium-sized enterprises, SMEs, but we will now be able to do this in a more consistent way.

We are working with bodies such as Enterprise Ireland and InterTrade Ireland to improve education for the SME sector. We held two events for SMEs in 2013. Approximately 1,400 SMEs attended each of the Dublin and Belfast sessions. A key issue for those who attended was their understanding of how public procurement worked. We need to do more in conjunction with the industry's representative associations, for example, the Small Firms Association, SFA, ISME, IBEC, etc., to improve education for SMEs so that they might understand how public procurement works and how they can engage with it. This year, we will make new investment through the Vote in new systems capabilities. We will seek to simplify how SMEs engage with our systems, as it can feel quite bureaucratic. The more we simplify engagement and make it easier, the more SMEs can compete, participate and, hopefully, be successful.

Competing in this context is a challenge for SMEs. However, good work is being done and sponsored by InterTrade Ireland and Enterprise Ireland in supporting SMEs in collaborating and forming consortiums. These positive actions will roll out in 2014, hopefully to good effect for SMEs in the marketplace.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I take it that most of the headings have been addressed, but some members may wish to drill down into specific headings or making general comments to conclude. I have one, but I will call Deputy Creed first.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I wish to raise a few brief questions on specific headings. The Minister alluded to Vote 12 on superannuation and retired allowances in the context of Deputy Fleming's questions. Perhaps the Minister will avail of this opportunity to reassure us regarding the pension liability that the State is assuming for various agencies and bodies immediately outside of the public service, for example, the IPA, the ESRI and some universities. Will he confirm that each of these bodies is compliant with public service pay norms and that the pensions being paid are commensurate with the pension liabilities that would arise within public service payscales? We are still bruising from the HSE's lessons in respect of various hospitals where payments were in excess of public service pay guidelines. It would be the ultimate irony if we were also to assume a pension liability commensurate with the amounts paid over and above the appropriate public service pay guidelines. Will the Minister assure the committee that all pensions are in line with public service pension rates and that the agencies involved are paying salaries within the guidelines?

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Does the Deputy have another question?

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but the Minister may wish to answer that one first.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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He will take one with the other.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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My second question is on Vote 16 on the Valuation Office. If memory serves correctly, there is a valuation Bill before the Seanad that the Minister has indicated he will accept. The Government's valuation Bill is long awaited. Where does it stand? Is there provision within this Vote for the increased levels of activity that would be expected to arise from a new Bill? I do not need to go into the issue of rates across the country or state that many companies are dissatisfied with the rate of progress being made on revaluations. The Valuation Office is critical to the SME sector. I would appreciate some information in this regard.

My third question is on public procurement. Special consideration of this issue in the committee's work programme could be useful. Mr. Quinn made an interesting reference to meetings in Dublin and Belfast for SMEs. There is probably a need for a wider ranging road show than just Dublin and Belfast. I support the idea of getting the maximum possible efficiencies for the State and I welcome the ambitious targets that have been set, but I have also seen the carnage that an SME can experience, possibly because of its own lack of knowledge, but equally because of the public procurement office's failure to reach out and engage with representative bodies and individual SMEs sufficiently with a view to making them aware of what is happening.

Would the regionalisation of tenders be considered? In the education sector, a contract was awarded in a specific area to a single company. Like those who are still in the business, I would argue that the company was not in a position to implement that tender nationally. This damaged many other players in the industry and raised the question of whether it was feasible or desirable to have a regionalised approach to tendering. The Minister might comment. It is something that-----

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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He may or he may not, as we have drifted.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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It is a critical issue.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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There are many critical issues. I could hold meetings on them all day, but this one is not listed.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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My question is on the Vote.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Those three particular areas are all important and I will try to give the Deputy a general response as best I can. We were conscious of the pensions liability that was accruing. One of the first actions that we took in government was to introduce the new single public service pension Bill, which became an Act. That scheme was commenced and has been operable since 1 January 2013. Obviously, we have not had mass recruitment to the public service in that time, but those who were recruited were so under the scheme's terms, be they judges, local authority workers, teachers or anyone else. As it will be a career average pension as opposed to an end-of-career pension determination, we estimate that it will save us from 32% to 35% on the pension bill by the middle part of this century. Taking this measure early was a significant achievement. It will take the pressure off pensions.

The Deputy asked a number of important questions about the way in which academics, for example, have migrated into the pension scheme and whether they did so on the same terms applied to existing career public servants. We have come across anomalies of people being awarded extra years previously. All of this was subject to sanction by the Minister for Education and Skills and me, which we are not doing anymore. There were situations in which people were awarded extra years in the academic institutions without any significant justification objectively. We need to do away with those situations.

The Deputy asked a specific question about whether someone's top-up would be pensionable. The answer is "No". Any unsanctioned pay is not pensionable. That is the simple approach.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Must top-ups be approved by the Department? I take the Minister's comment about them not being pensionable, but is everyone with a top-up in receipt of such with the approval of the Minister's Department?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Our general pay policy is that we do not approve top-ups. We have indicated this across all spheres of the public sector. We, the Committee of Public Accounts and others have discovered where this policy has not been implemented. We need to drill down into those situations.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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That was discovered in respect of the hospital sector, but we are discussing various other State agencies where we are assuming responsibility for pensions. Are we certain that, for example, in the education sector-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We have written to them all to ensure that the norms of public sector pay are applied. We will ensure that is the case.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister of the opinion that the norms of public sector pay apply in most cases?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We are not aware of any case where they are not applied. What has emerged are cases where people are getting top-ups from the private sphere or from non-public sources, and they come as a surprise.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Could we get a list from the Minister of the organisations to which he has written?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Yes. There were two other questions.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I will conclude.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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With regard to the valuation Bill process, we published the Valuation (Amendment) Bill in August 2012 and that Bill proceeded through Second Stage in the Seanad in October 2012. We have had many significant submissions in that regard and we have been involved in discussions. I hope to get back into Committee Stage in the Seanad with that Bill in the not too distant future. As I stated previously to Deputy Fleming, it provides a number of new ways for dealing more expeditiously with valuation. The Deputy also asked if there is enough money. Considering the Valuation Office Vote 16, the outturn figure for 2013 was €7.42 million and we have allocated €8.9 million for next year. We expect an acceleration of the national revaluation programme during the course of this year.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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It is accelerating from a very slow base at the moment and it would not be an enormous speed of progress.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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There will be significant additional resources allocated to ensure it proceeds. With regard to procurement, tenders will make sense for the specific product. It is a national rather than a local market, so we will not have local procurement in that sense. One will not travel from Donegal to Wexford, for example, in order to provide a cleaning service in the offices of the Environmental Protection Agency. There will be a practical local component. It would be useful at a later date for the director of the procurement office to go through this in some detail, and the committee could even bring in representatives of the small and medium enterprise sector to engage. It may be something for the work programme.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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On a related matter, my contribution relates to general procurement and the e-Government process. When Ms Josephine Feehily appeared before the committee recently to consider how the local property charge was being paid, it was very evident that over half the people now paying the charge are doing so by means of a debit or credit card payment. That is a massive success with regard to people engaging with electronic systems, although difficulties arose with how the payment was scheduled. It showed intent as to how people will engage with Government services. People would fill in a medical card application if they were to go down that route.

The half-year local property charge payment for the 2013 was approximately €250 million, so we are talking about a figure of €500 million next year. From the discussion with Ms Feehily, it appears the merchant agreement for the credit card payment is 1.25%, which is very high. Following from this, I wrote a series of parliamentary questions to all Departments, asking them for the merchant agreement sum they have agreed; the lowest rate seems to be 0.5%, with the highest rate in excess of 2.5%. The sums are different for Departments as some deal with very small credit card costs, whereas others see quite significant sums processed. The biggest sum - almost on a par with the local property charge - is traditional motor tax and vehicle registration, with almost €500,000 in income there. The credit card merchant agreement in that case is 0.5%, with a debit card charge of 26 cent per card transaction. The net sum is €3 million for the Department. I do not know the percentage of people making payments with cards but the proportion is probably similar to the local property charge, meaning there is another €3 million for the local property tax, etc.

Credit card payments are being made to the cost of several million euro and the merchant agreement seems to differ with every Department. Perhaps that is a legacy issue. Is there a possibility that we could arrive at one merchant agreement? Industry representatives have told me that if the public service online payment facility was tendered as a single unit, the rate would be well under 0.5% as there is such a significant sum of money involved. Could that be considered? I would be grateful if given an ongoing progress report as to how the issue develops.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We are considering banking and banking services as part of general procurement. We will keep the committee in touch with what is happening.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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We thank the Minister and his officials in assisting the committee in its consideration of the Revised Estimates and programme.