Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Tuesday, 19 November 2013

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation

Health and Safety Authority: Discussion with Chairman Designate

2:55 pm

Photo of Damien EnglishDamien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Mr. Michael Horgan, chairman designate of the Health and Safety Authority, and Mr. Martin O'Halloran, chief executive officer of the Health and Safety Authority.

I wish to advise the witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite Mr. Horgan to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Michael Horgan:

I was nominated by the then Minister, Deputy Dara Callery, in December 2010 as chairperson of the Health and Safety Authority. I now have the good fortune of being nominated by the current Minister, Deputy Richard Bruton, for a further period of three years. I consider both nominations an honour and privilege.

Committee members will have read my biographical document. The majority of my professional life was spent in the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland. I was deputy chief executive for eight years and chief executive for just over five years. I hold a degree in computer science from Trinity College Dublin and a masters degree in industrial engineering from University College Dublin, UCD. I also have the good fortune of holding a number of honorary degrees. I completed the Institute of Directors company direction examinations in 2010 and I am currently in the process of completing the chartered director programme. That is a qualification relating to corporate governance.

I will tell the committee a little about my time as chairperson of the Health and Safety Authority over the last three years, but I will first remind it of some of the background of the authority. Its mandate, as set out in over 200 legislative measures, is: to regulate the safety, health and welfare of people at work and those affected by work activities; to promote improvement in the safety, health and welfare of people at work; to regulate and promote the safe manufacture, use, placing on the market, trade and transport of chemicals, while enhancing innovation and competitiveness; to act as surveillance authority in respect of relevant European Single Market legislation.

The authority has a number of major roles. It is the national statutory body with responsibility for ensuring workers, both employed and self-employed, and those affected by work activity are protected from work related injury and ill health. We do this by enforcing occupational health and safetylaw, promoting accident prevention and providing information and advice across all sectors, including agriculture. The authority is the lead national competent authority for a number of chemicalsregulations. Our responsibility in this area is to protect human health and the environment, to enhance competitiveness and innovation and ensure free movement of chemicals in the EU market. In this role we provide protection to all of the citizens of Ireland. We are a key agency involved in market surveillanceand ensuring the safety of products used in workplaces and consumer applications.

Our remit is very wide. We cover every workplace in the State and, through our responsibility for chemicals, every person in the State is affected by our work in one way or another. The breadth of our remit is such that it touches on that of a number of other regulators, Government Departments, their offices and other agencies. To ensure the most effective and efficient operation and deployment of valuable State resources we enter into memoranda of understanding, MOU, and bilateral and multilateral working arrangements with these other organisations. These include an MOU with An Garda Síochána; the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA; Commission for Energy Regulation, CER; Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine; Railway Safety Commission; Teagasc; Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA; Revenue Commissioners; Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland, RPII, and many more. We have more than 25 such collaborative arrangements in place.

I was fortunate that my predecessor Jim Lyons and his board, as well as previous chairpersons and boards, had left a well run and effective organisation in place. Like all public sector bodies we have had to reduce staffing and expenditure and this has been achieved while doing our best to maintain our success in reducing workplace deaths and serious injuries. Ireland still has one of the lowest non-fatal injury rates in the EU and the rate of worker fatalities is about average, even though staffing in the Health and Safety Authority is lower than in comparable organisations across the EU.

Notwithstanding that performance when compared with the EU peer group, I am acutely aware of the trauma arising for people on a daily and weekly basis when there is a fatality or serious workplace accident. Such events have a huge impact on family, friends, work colleagues and communities. One of the most upsetting things for me since accepting the post of chairperson is the e-mail I receive, at random times, informing me that a fatality has occurred. Almost every week and sometimes twice or more in the same week I get an e-mail alerting me to another fatality in the workplace. No international comparisons can make this acceptable. There is no acceptable minimum number of fatalities. Despite our progress, we still have nearly 50 workplace fatalities each year and more than 6,600 reported accidents requiring a person to be absent from work for more than three days. Based on Central Statistics Office, CSO, data, it is estimated that there are more than 1.18 million days lost to the economy due to work related illness and accidents. If this occurred due to any other cause, it is likely that we would be addressing it as a national priority, but these events are distributed geographically and in time, so they do not create a major national consciousness.

As part of the transformation of the public service, we have seen our budget and our head count reduced by over 20%, while demand for our service has continued to increase and our remit has been extended through legislation.

It was apparent at an early stage that the changed economic circumstances needed a change in emphasis. We had an early and continuing win in the area of reducing the cost of compliance for small and medium-sized employers. In a very short amount of time, the staff of the authority put together an innovative online tool, known as BeSMART, to enable small enterprises to protect the safety of their employees without having to employ expensive outside consultants. Thousands of employers have enrolled and the cost savings have been substantial. A major disappointment for us is the diminished level of support we are now obliged to provide to the pharmachem, ICT and medical devices sectors due to the loss of specialist scientists and engineers. This is a major challenge to the authority. It requires leadership and smart thinking on the part of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. We have lost a number of specialist staff to the private sector in the past three years. We have not been able to replace them due to lack of support from the Department.

The authority has used technology widely to improve efficiency and effectiveness in its operations. We have also used our website and social media to communicate our message. We have developed an e-learning service which we use as a tool to change the culture in the workplace. We have changed the manner in which we conduct workplace inspections and visits. We now focus on achieving voluntary compliance through a risk-based approach and on giving advice. More than 90% of all inspections result in verbal or written advice. Where there are serious breaches or failures in duty of care or an unwillingness to take corrective measures on a voluntary basis, we use the enforcement tools available and we pursue non-compliant duty holders through the courts.

In recent years, the authority has invested a great deal of effort in assisting with the consolidation of legislation and ensuring guidance is available as soon as regulations are made. This has made it much easier for employers and employees to find out what they need to do. I think the authority’s consultative process in the development of legislative proposals is second to none. It helps to ensure the fitness for purpose and proportionality of health and safety regulation. We will not maintain our successes unless we find ways of increasing the authority’s reach to counterbalance the smaller number of staff. I have initiated a project to review the way the authority performs its business activities with a view to identifying more effective ways of working, for example, by making more use of mobile technology and technology in general.

My earnest hope and that of the authority is that the figures with regard to accident and fatality rates in the workplace, ill health and the safe use of chemicals will continue to go in the right direction. I assure the Minister, Deputy Bruton, and this committee that any failure in this regard will not be due to a lack of effort on my part. I would like to conclude by complimenting the executive and the staff of the Health and Safety Authority for their outstanding commitment to such a noble cause. Because of their efforts, more and more workers go to work and return safely every day.

3:05 pm

Photo of Dara CallearyDara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Mr. Horgan and Mr. O'Halloran. I would like to declare an interest. I put Mr. Horgan forward for appointment in 2010 on the basis of his successful track record until then. I am delighted to see that record continue. I wish him well.

I ask Mr. Horgan or Mr. O'Halloran to go into more detail on the BeSMART project, which is an excellent example for any State organisation of how to reduce the compliance burden. I used to discuss this issue with Mr. Horgan on a regular basis. The project has worked really well and is relatively cost-effective.

Mr. Horgan was quite critical of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. He spoke about a "lack of support from the Department" and suggested that "leadership and smart thinking" are needed on the part of the Department. Can he outline how the Department's approach is affecting the day-to-day operation of the authority? It seems that there are difficulties with communication or delivery.

Mr. Horgan mentioned that the number of inspections carried out by the authority has fallen. Its inspection target for 2013 was 12,850. Is that target, which represents a significant decrease compared to the position some years ago when approximately 16,000 inspections were being carried out, likely to be met? Has the figure decreased for budget reasons or for technology reasons?

Mr. Michael Horgan:

The BeSMART project has been very successful to date. This online tool, which is based on e-learning technology, helps small businesses to complete risk assessments and produce safety statements by guiding them through the process in a very intuitive way. Approximately 30,000 companies have registered for and used the BeSMART service to date. The number of hits on the BeSMART website is much larger. We are trying to encourage more and more companies to use this service as it develops. We believe BeSMART can be used as a tool to enable a different kind of approach to workplace inspections to be taken.

The point I was making in my initial statement about the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform was that we have lost specialist staff - engineers and toxicologists - to the private sector. Although we have done everything that has been asked of us in terms of numbers, etc., under the employment control framework, we have not been able to get permission to replace those people or train others to take up those positions. I referred to the need for "leadership and smart thinking" because the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has been doing a great job on the macroeconomic issues but, in my opinion, needs to make difficult decisions on certain micro issues. Public service organisations that need particular resources which are not available elsewhere in the system are falling through the cracks because of the specialist nature of their work.

I will give some examples of areas in which the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform needs to show leadership and make difficult decisions, even if it might be criticised in some quarters for doing so. Additional resources might be needed for a number of projects in areas like information and communications technology and nanotechnology. To give an example that does not relate to technology, Dublin City Council is planning to build a long sea outfall tunnel, but we do not have the in-house expertise to provide services in that regard. That is an example of an issue in respect of which we need the Department to show "leadership and smart thinking".

The number of inspections carried out by the authority this year is likely to be approximately 10,000. There has been a significant decrease over the years. The figure probably exceeded 15,000 in 2008 and 2009. The number of inspections has decreased because our numbers have dropped by approximately 20%. Our people numbers have probably dropped by approximately 30%. There continues to be a risk basis to our inspections. The algorithm we use internally to identify areas for inspection focuses on high-risk areas. Low-risk areas tend not to be inspected, or are inspected on foot of a random audit.

While the number is important, most of our inspections at this stage result in advice and guidance. It is almost a consultancy-type meeting. We would like to look at smarter ways of doing that. We have started to look at whether there are other ways we can change the culture within enterprises and agriculture to get those numbers down. The number of fatalities seem to be stuck at about the 45% to 50% mark no matter how much effort we put into them. It is not acceptable that we resign ourselves to that. We need to come up with smarter ways to get the culture to change and to get people to realise the risks they are taking. Yes, we are down but we think we are still making the impact we have always made.

3:15 pm

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have a number of questions. In respect of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and particularly around the area of chemical substances, we have certain obligations under EU law in respect of REACH and CPL. There is the Chemicals Act 2008 and it is the responsibility of the HSA to oversee the operations of the Acts, if not their enforcement because I think that falls under the remit of four or five other bodies. If one does not have that level of expertise, it will impact on operating those Acts. While I do not want to put words in anyone's mouth, if we do not have the personnel to oversee the operation of those Acts to fulfil our obligations, workplace safety has diminished. Could Mr. Horgan comment on this?

My other question relates to a report by the Institute of Employment Studies that was commissioned by the HSA to look at construction workers, particularly overseas construction workers given that there was a higher number of accidents in this group. What were the workings of that report? What measures were put in place?

We have seen many developments relating to the issue of bullying, particularly in the education sector. What is the situation in terms of the workplace? How significant an issue is it? I know the HSA has a role in respect of that.

I do not know if Mr. Horgan can comment on the area of corporate manslaughter but if he can, I would appreciate it. We do not have any legislation in this area and it is something that my party and I have long called because I honestly believe there is a need for it. I will not name any companies and individuals but we have seen court cases involving companies that have caused the death of workers through their own negligence but have not been held responsible for it. I am not too sure whether Mr. Horgan can comment on this issue but if he can, I would appreciate some comments on the introduction of legislation around corporate manslaughter.

Mr. Michael Horgan:

In respect of REACH and the EU regulations, we still have a chemicals section with staff so we are still managing all of those requirements at the moment. Mr. O'Halloran can correct me if I am wrong but we have put operational issues in place to allow us to ensure that EU regulations we are obliged to address are addressed. All those areas are covered.

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The reason I asked the question is because the HSA's annual report for 2012 states that it is unlikely that the authority can continue to maintain its active engagement nationally and in Europe on REACH and CPL into 2013 unless resources are forthcoming. I presume those resources have not been forthcoming to date. Is it still the case that it will make the authority's role in maintaining that level of engagement it currently has much more difficult?

Mr. Michael Horgan:

It is fair to say that we have reduced our presence at many EU conferences and safety meetings because of the level of staffing we have. We have concentrated more on internal issues relating to Ireland and have done so with the level of staffing we have. We are no different to any other public body in that we are challenged with the reduced level of funding available to us. At all times, we have endeavoured to meet that challenge and come up with solutions by either moving staff or reducing things we would consider less important than the critical issues we must address. That is what we have been doing up to now. I am not sure that our annual report for 2013 will state anything that differs greatly than what is in the 2012 report.

If I may, I will skip the item on the report on construction. Bullying is part of an issue within employment and should be part of employers' risk assessment and policy documents on health and safety in the workplace. It is something that comes up fairly regularly and is usually dealt with at a local level. The part that will become of greater interest will be stress in the workplace, which is linked to bullying. How we deal with stress in the workplace as part of health and safety is the part that will be a challenge in the future because sometimes it is not considered to be part of general health and safety issues. Mr. O'Halloran can add to that if he wishes when he is dealing with the first question.

The board of the authority discussed the issue of corporate manslaughter at about the middle of this year. As members know, the offence of corporate manslaughter has been introduced in the UK and there have been two cases in Northern Ireland since its introduction. We discussed it to form a view in case it came back to us. I could not say there was a general consensus within the authority in terms of recommending the introduction of such a charge. My guess is that it would be something the authority would support. We did not and were not asked to reach a decision. It was discussed as a concept but my view would be that-----

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Are discussions taking place with anyone from the Department of Justice and Equality about the possibility of introducing that?

Mr. Michael Horgan:

Not directly.

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Have any views been sought from the HSA on this issue?

Mr. Martin O'Halloran:

We had a query from the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation in the context of all Departments being consulted on the corporate manslaughter. As Mr. Horgan said, at that stage, it was considered by the board but no definitive position was concluded. To put it into context, while we do not have the offence of corporate manslaughter, the courts treat breaches of health and safety very seriously and even in the past year, have handed down fines of €1 million, €500,000 and €350,000 and custodial sentences with the latest one about three weeks' ago being a two-year custodial sentence suspended. The courts treat the breaches very seriously.

Section 80 of the 2005 Act provides that charges may be preferred against an individual in respect of his or her failures. That has been a very significant provision and has led to significant cases being brought forward in the courts. On the question about the construction sector, the authority commissioned a research study carried out by the employment organisation. It specifically assessed if the attitudes, behaviours and the outcomes for non-Irish workers were different from those relating to Irish workers. The study looked at 200 construction companies and 600 people, 300 of whom were non-Irish nationals. There were no stark differences. Some of the notable findings were that the perception among non-Irish national workers interviewed was that the awareness and sense of responsibility demonstrated by employers in Ireland was at least equivalent to or better than in their home country. This was not a homogenous finding because experiences differed, depending on the country of origin of the workers. In general, the level of awareness of occupational safety and health in Ireland, based on a study carried out by the European agency in Bilbao, ranks us as varying between first and second, depending on the country. That study has informed our construction sector policy. We will carry out 2,500 planned inspections in 2014. We are finding that one of the biggest issues is working at heights, very often on small construction sites. When inspectors visit workplaces they will always be cognisant of the duty of the employer to ensure that staff are briefed and communicated with and this must be carried out in accordance with the provisions of the legislation, which means, in a language accessible to them, which could mean in their own language. We translated many of our leading information documents into the main foreign languages spoken, including Polish, Mandarin and others. When an inspector visits a site, he or she will invariably seek to speak with the safety representative. We are very attuned to the particular and specific needs of workers.

3:25 pm

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I understand a code of practice to deal with bullying is in place but it is not enforceable. If a person fails to abide by that code of practice, this is not designated as an offence. Would the authority like to see this changed?

Mr. Martin O'Halloran:

The issue of bullying is dealt with by a number of State agencies. Our policy is that issues of stress and bullying are to be identified as a hazard. When our inspectors visit a workplace they will inspect the policy. Any grievance is channelled through the Labour Relations Commission. We have issued a code of practice on bullying which complements the LRC code of practice. Deputy O'Brien asked about education. Each year we receive a number of complaints of bullying in the teaching and medical professions and in a range of other areas. Every complaint is followed up and dealt with. The authority recently issued guidelines for the management of health and safety in all primary schools. The guidelines were provided free of charge to all 3,300 primary schools in the country. Training was provided for principals and designated staff and the guidelines specifically address the issue of stress and bullying in the workplace.

Photo of Anthony LawlorAnthony Lawlor (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses. I congratulate them on the work of the Health and Safety Authority. Fatal accidents in the workplace average at 50 per year. I ask for a breakdown of the age cohort of those involved in fatal accidents.

Mr. Michael Horgan:

We have that information but we did not bring it with us to the meeting.

Photo of Anthony LawlorAnthony Lawlor (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is there a general trend in the ages involved? Are the majority below 30, for example?

Mr. Michael Horgan:

No. Approximately 50% of fatalities occur in the agriculture-farming sector while the remainder occur in the commercial sector. The age cohort in the farming fatalities tends to be much older, 65 years and over. In the other sectors, there is a fairly normal distribution of ages.

Photo of Anthony LawlorAnthony Lawlor (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Has the authority carried out a study on the cost impact of health and safety legislation on companies? I refer in particular to small firms. The cost of implementing the legislation is much higher for a smaller company than for a larger company.

Mr. Michael Horgan:

Mr. O'Halloran will correct me if I am mistaken - the HSA did not produce a report but the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation produced a report on the cost of compliance in general.

The actual cost involved has been a long-standing issue. The BeSMART tool is available online and an employer can use it to comply with all the provisions of the legislation with no cost involved. However, in many cases, people employ external consultants to advise them and this is a significant cost. Our argument with regard to health and safety is that all of the legislation is based on reasonable actions that need to be taken-----

Photo of Anthony LawlorAnthony Lawlor (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I acknowledge that is the case and the submission refers to proportionality and being fit for purpose.

Mr. Martin O'Halloran:

We have been examining the cost and the impact of fatalities and serious injuries on both the individual organisations and the economy. It is quite striking. The report on compliance was done by the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation.

The original report was commissioned by the then Minister of State, Tony Killeen, following the implementation of the 2005 Act. He gave an undertaking to the Houses of the Oireachtas during the passage of the Act. The report was done by Indecon. It estimated that the economic cost of failures was in the region of 2.1% of GNP. The report also studied a number of costs to the economy and to business. A later analysis was based on the BeSMART tool. It was estimated that the savings to business based on a departmental analysis using a standardised cost model was in excess of €40 million as a result of a reduction in the regulatory burden. We have received testimonials from individual small firms who quote savings between €500 and €1,000 from the use of this tool. The feedback continues to be very positive. The area of accident costing is very difficult. A number of studies have been carried out in Ireland and internationally, the earliest of which dates from a study by Andreotti in the ILO in the 1980s.

The feedback on BeSMART is very positive. If an inspector visits a site and finds that the client or the employer is using BeSMART, the inspection will be quick and quite cursory.

We also developed a code of practice for agriculture that is widely used. We do a great deal of work online. Mr. Horgan mentioned our website, from which information is downloaded more than 700,000 times each year and which receives millions of hits. We are also using social media to get the message out. In terms of the education section, for example, 45,000 transition year students have passed through education programmes and we provide a great deal of online learning. We are hoping to inculcate a culture so that when youngsters enter the workplace, they understand their fundamental human rights and know how to ask appropriately that these been observed.

3:35 pm

Photo of Anthony LawlorAnthony Lawlor (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I have a few more questions. Our guests have stated that there is an increased demand for their services. Is this purely because of the implementation of the legislation? Given the fact that we are going through a bit of a recession, one would have expected less demand for those services, in that there are fewer companies. I am fascinated by the increase in demand when there is a reduction in demand in the economy as a whole.

Mr. Michael Horgan:

The answer is twofold. Additional requirements under legislation follow through to us. Ironically, some of this demand is generated by us, in that we have suggested amendments to particular legislation.

Photo of Anthony LawlorAnthony Lawlor (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I hope that the Health and Safety Authority, HSA, is not trying to generate more work for itself.

Mr. Michael Horgan:

No, but we also receive responses from our inspectors. As the environment has grown tougher, people have taken more shortcuts. This has increased our workload by lengthening the duration of inspections and increasing our level of vigilance. We are working with between 20% and 25% fewer resources than we had three years ago, yet we are expected to do the same work.

Photo of Anthony LawlorAnthony Lawlor (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am from an agricultural background. Recently, I renewed my farmer's home insurance, yet it did not mention anything about health and safety. Perhaps the HSA could work with insurance companies and the agricultural sector on reducing the insurance bills of farmers who undertake HSA-approved courses. This could reduce the number of fatalities, many of which result from people not using their common sense.

Mr. Michael Horgan:

Unfortunately, that applies to every accident, but especially within agriculture. We have engaged with the insurance companies and the farming bodies. This difficult issue relates to the culture of farming, in that a farm is a home as well as land that has been in a family's hands for a long time. The concept of it being a workplace is the bit that needs to be driven home to everyone. As the Deputy stated, the accidents in question occurred because someone did not stop to think for a second or two about the risks on the farmyard or associated with the machinery being used. Agriculture is our prime focus currently, as it accounts for the single largest number of fatalities by far.

Photo of Anthony LawlorAnthony Lawlor (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am not trying to place more regulations on farmers, as there are already enough. Rather, I want to incentivise them. Farmers love being incentivised through money.

Photo of Damien EnglishDamien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Or insurance. Hibernian Insurance has an initiative.

Photo of Anthony LawlorAnthony Lawlor (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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If the HSA worked with the insurance companies to push something like that, it would improve farm safety levels.

Mr. Michael Horgan:

We will try to do so.

Photo of John LyonsJohn Lyons (Dublin North West, Labour)
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If our guests would comment on some anecdotal evidence I have, I would be more than happy. A gentleman approached me recently. He had worked on building sites since he was first able to do so. Given the absence of joint labour committees, JLCs, and registered employment agreements, REAs, there has been considerable growth in the number of agency workers. Like him, most workers are now agency staff and their rights are not being observed. He referred to banksmen and crane drivers working on particularly windy days when they knew that they should not have been up there and the growing fear that the job of the safety officer, who was also an agency worker and who wanted to be called back for work again the next day, was not being fulfilled properly. I do not expect the HSA to be able to work miracles but I assume that, given the precarious nature of the workforce in the wake of absent legislation, anecdotal evidence can be viewed as the truth. Is the HSA aware of this situation?

Mr. Michael Horgan:

Yes. It has occurred more frequently in the past two years. We have received feedback in the form of contractors and subcontractors insisting that the individuals in question be sole traders and claiming that they do not have to comply with legislation. This matter has been raised with us by representatives of both the employers and employees. It also arose several times during our board meetings. We are dealing with this issue. Our inspectors consider the hazards and risks on a site as opposed to the strict contractual relationships between individuals. It is an area that I suspect will become more of an issue.

Mr. Martin O'Halloran:

A number of provisions in our construction regulations allow inspectors to consider the holistic situation on the site. Irrespective of whom the contractual employment relationship may be with, the duty holders include those who are responsible for the site and have effective control. Many of the cases that we take to court relate to instances of confusion arising, in that people believed that they did not have a duty of care to employees when they actually did. Inspectors are vigilant about this issue.

We are conscious of what we call the casualisation of labour. Multiple self-employed subcontractors, or subbies, might be working on a large construction site. An inspector will ensure that the project supervisor design phase, PSDP, and the project supervisor construction stage, PSCS, include co-ordination roles so that no one is hanging out, as it were, whose health and safety is not protected. We are aware of this issue and our inspectors are very tuned into it.

Photo of Áine CollinsÁine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome our guests. I have been busy looking at their impressive website. It contains an incredible amount of information on the BeSMART programme and so forth. Well done to them.

I wish to make an observation on a matter that the committee has discussed many times. I come from a rural constituency with small businesses and I hear many complaints about inspectors, in that their attitudes can be a bit undesirable. Everyone cannot manage everyone and those inspectors might not even be the HSA's, but there was a conversation about having fewer inspectors and merging a number of authorities, whereby a single inspector would cover several elements.

In that way, we could ensure that inspectors are well briefed in communicating and how to handle challenging and difficult situations. Does Mr. Horgan have any comments in that regard?

3:45 pm

Mr. Michael Horgan:

It is difficult to comment on an individual inspection.

Photo of Áine CollinsÁine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the difficulty. It was more of a general comment.

Mr. Michael Horgan:

All our inspectors are trained and know that they are obliged to behave in a professional manner. We would hope therefore that it was none of our inspectors. As regards the idea of having inspections by different agencies, one could have the Food Safety Authority of Ireland or another agency coming on the same day, not to mind the same week. In a rural area, an official from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine could attend also. I am not sure if one person could do all those things in one visit, although I am sure some could. We have discussed it on a number of occasions. Through our memorandum of understanding with the different agencies, we have sought ways whereby if one of those agencies has been in to inspect somewhere, it would give us the report and then allow us to decide whether or not we need to visit that company. We would be quite happy with that, but I am not sure how far we can bring it. I suspect that we would not be the ones leading it.

Photo of Áine CollinsÁine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Is there anything this committee can do to examine that? I am talking in particular about small employers. There are quite a lot of small businesses around the country and if different agencies or inspectors are coming in, it is taking time from management and staff which is onerous for the businesses concerned.

Mr. Michael Horgan:

I am not sure. At one stage there was a conversation about looking at an overarching regulatory body that would undertake a number of inspections. One could see, for example, that HIQA and the Health and Safety Authority could do some things together. Other areas are so diverse, however, that it would be hard to do that.

We are trying to get to a stage where we will only inspect high-risk areas, while the others will comply in some other fashion. We have not yet come up with a solution but we will be working on that over the next 12 months. Such a solution would allow us to put resources into the areas that need attention.

Photo of Áine CollinsÁine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I have one observation to make about inspectors. I have a colleague who worked for a multinational both here and in Germany. His view was that when the inspectors come in in Ireland they try to catch a person, whereas in Germany they ask what they can do to help. There is more liaison in Germany. I have heard this observation, rather than having any factual evidence. I get a lot of negative feedback on inspectors, but I do not know if it is because the Irish have an attitude to inspectors or because inspectors come with more authority here than elsewhere.

Mr. Michael Horgan:

It is like looking in one's rear mirror and seeing a Garda car.

Photo of Áine CollinsÁine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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It is a bit like that perhaps.

Mr. Michael Horgan:

One immediately thinks "What have I done wrong?"

Photo of Áine CollinsÁine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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It would be great if there was a bit more openness on both sides.

Mr. Michael Horgan:

Interestingly, all our inspectors do a feedback survey. They are our surveys, so we would say that would we not? However, it is something we will take up.

Photo of Áine CollinsÁine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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It is just a general comment. Businesses are struggling at the moment and then another inspector comes in the door. People are already under a lot of stress, so that is why I mentioned it.

Photo of Damien EnglishDamien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I wish to thank Mr. Michael Horgan and Mr. Martin O'Halloran for engaging with the committee today. I appreciate their help. On behalf of the committee, I wish them well and continued success in the coming three years.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.05 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 26 November 2013.