Mr. Seán Coughlan:

I fully agree. The Senator has raised a very interesting dynamic. In supporting commercial activity in the local economy we are prepared to take some risk. We are prepared to invest in early-stage organisations - not necessarily just financially but also with training, mentoring and providing shared services. In our sector the Carmichael Centre is a leading example of that. We are prepared to do that because we know that on average we accrue more benefit from the ones that succeed than we expend on early investment to support start-up companies, particularly small local companies. The county and city enterprise boards as well as other State agencies have been set up for that.

The Senator is right in what he said. At the moment everybody claims to be prepared to invest early on. When a company is a success, those agencies are its new best friends. However, that does not solve the problem we are trying to solve. It is not so much a money conversation but a change in mindset conversation.

The Senator referred to NAMA and empty premises. If we start to be more creative in how we look at these challenges, there are many solutions out there. For example, we have invested in and supported a great initiative, called Fumbally Exchange, which has been set up to go into premises that are underutilised or empty. It builds a vibrant ecosystem of small businesses that are commercially viable within those communities. Part of its remit, because it is a social enterprise, is to build the community around those companies. It has gone into premises in Dublin's inner city and created a new commercial hub of activity there and has now moved on to different premises.

In times of recession people want to give back. If we can give them those examples, the people will step up to that mark. They are very interested in solving some challenges they see on their doorstep. However, we have not created enough examples and a supportive environment. The knowledge exists in State agencies. The start-up process for a social enterprise is almost the same as the start-up process for any commercial enterprise. In Social Entrepreneurs Ireland we spend our time working with our social entrepreneurs on business plans, communication strategies, keeping proper accounts and HR issues. The State has so much expertise in all those areas but organisations such as Dunhill and other social enterprises continually struggle to get access to that knowledge which the State already has. We are not looking for new people or new agencies; we are just looking for a door to open so that we can access what we already have. I just do not see where is the downside.