Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 17 October 2013
Public Accounts Committee
Ordnance Survey Ireland Annual Accounts 2011
11:10 am
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I ask members, witnesses and those in the Gallery to turn off their mobile phones as they interfere with sound quality and transmission. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. If they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 163 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.
I welcome Mr. Colin Bray, chief executive officer, Ordnance Survey Ireland and ask him to introduce his officials.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Mr. McCarthy to introduce the accounts.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
Ordnance Survey Ireland, OSi, which was established as a State body in 2002, is the national mapping agency. It operates under the aegis of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. As part of the programme of rationalisation of State bodies, it is planned that OSi will merge with the Valuation Office and the Property Registration Authority by the end of 2013. I understand there may be some delay in this regard because legislation will be required to give effect to the merger. OSi’s income comes primarily from sales of spatial data and mapping products, which generated income of €19.5 million in 2011. OSi is also in receipt of grant-in-aid from the Vote for communications, energy and natural resources. The total grant-in-aid paid in 2011 was €7.45 million. Around three quarters of OSi’s expenditure in 2011 related to salaries and pension costs. OSi also invested €2.2 million in capital additions over the year.
In 2011, OSi formalised its interest in a joint venture called An Post GeoDirectory Limited, in which OSi and An Post have collaborated to provide a definitive database of addresses in the State. OSi’s financial statements for 2011 received an unqualified audit opinion. However, my audit certificate drew attention to a number of disclosures in the financial statements. Bonuses totalling €30,000 were paid to four staff members in 2011. These bonuses were not in accordance with the provisions of the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No. 2) Act 2009. Accrued bonuses for 2008, 2009 and 2010 relating to the former chief executive officer had not yet been paid. These were payable without contravening the 2009 Act but payment was deferred based on an agreement with the former chief executive officer. Payment of interest on the amounts deferred was part of the agreement. An overpayment of salary was made to the then chief executive officer while the application of the provisions of the 2009 Act was being clarified. The chief executive officer will be able to update the committee on the final legal settlement with the former chief executive officer in relation to remuneration matters. Following completion of the audit, the 2012 financial statements for OSi were certified on 11 October 2013.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I invite Mr. Bray to make his opening statement.
Mr. Colin Bray:
I am grateful for the invitation to attend the Committee of Public Accounts to discuss Ordnance Survey Ireland, OSi. OSi has been the national mapping agency for Ireland since 1824. We operate under the Ordnance Survey Act 2001 and we have a dual remit covering both public service obligations and commercial activities.
OSi operates and is funded differently to other public sector bodies. As part of our remit is commercial, we must design and sell products that can compete in a cutting edge marketplace. We have been successful in carving out a significant commercial market for OSi products and services, despite the impact of the recession. Like many organisations in the private and public sectors, large portions of OSi's revenue, particularly in the construction sector, were wiped out by the recession. However, through proactive development of new products and markets, extensive change management and judicious cost cutting, a substantial percentage of lost revenue was restored over time.
Public bodies, both national and local, and public utilities are the primary users of high quality spatial data sets and high resolution mapping. OSi's total revenue is €23 million, of which almost €10 million is derived from a variety of public service customers, including Departments, State agencies and local authorities. A further €8 million comes from private and commercial sector customers.
Today we are an organisation of 240 people with a focus on supporting the public service by providing it with the authoritative spatial data needed to support planning, conveyancing, construction and effective management of State assets and key national programmes. When OSi was set up as an independent entity under the 2001 Act, we continued to operate as an aligned public service organisation. As the national mapping agency we adhered to the Act by putting in place commercial strategies to enable the generation of revenues from the public and private sectors. The benefit of this was two-fold, in that it provided commercial income to allow us to further invest in surveying infrastructure, technology and product development while at the same time impOSing a commercial culture in terms of how we evaluate and deliver services.
As the committee is aware an issue has been identified relating to the need to build our commercial marketing ability in the context of the recession and the loss of revenue in specific market segments. Prior to the moratorium, therefore, we recruited on a fixed-term contract a marketing expert to assist us in addressing this need.
In the development of the digital economy, OSi has been an early mover in ensuring that the database infrastructure is in place to support related EU directives such as INSPIRE, and developed and maintains, geoportal.ie, the national environmental data portal, as a shared service on behalf of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. We have also been intensely focused on future-proofing the management of spatial data by investing in a national spatial data infrastructure which will enable consistent and accurate referencing and management of location information. Further developments in the use of this database will support e-Government and the wider public sector reform agenda and public service planning.
The committee will be aware that the Government has decided to proceed with the merger of Ordnance Survey Ireland, the Property Registration Authority and the Valuation Office. A project board comprising senior officials from the three parent Departments and the chief executive officers of the three organisations has been established recently to oversee the process. As an outcome of this measure we will be pOSitioned to enhance public service reform and planning for the future by being more closely aligned with our public service clients and Civil Service colleagues to drive efficiency, value for money initiatives and transformation through the effective use of our spatial data.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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May we publish Mr. Bray's statement?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Mr. Bray. The Comptroller and Auditor General noted that OSi's 2012 accounts were certified in the last several days. Was there any reason for the length of time it took to certify them? Given that we are now discussing the 2011 accounts, why were the 2012 accounts only certified within the last week?
Mr. Colin Bray:
The 2012 accounts, as per normal activity, were submitted to the Comptroller and Auditor General at the end of February. A number of activities that occurred during that period can explain some of the delay.
We had a change in the Ordnance Survey Ireland, OSi, board and so there was a period of a number of months there. In addition, in laying those accounts before the House, there was a delay in respect of the summer recess and that is the reason they came before the summer recess.
11:20 am
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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On that point, will it be possible to have Ordnance Survey Ireland back before the committee in respect of the 2012 accounts? It is quite unusual to be discussing the 2011 accounts in October 2013.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we can of course. I am sure that if the Deputy refers to the accounts in terms of any question he might have, the witnesses might be able to answer him.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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That is okay, it is just that most people who appear before the committee would have accounts for 2012. Mr. Bray stated, in the third paragraph of his statement, "OSi, operates and is funded differently to other public sector bodies." Can he explain briefly how it is that much different?
Mr. Colin Bray:
As a public sector body, we actually create products and services. The running of our organisation and our funding model are based on the generation of commercial income and as such, we must compete with cutting-edge developments and the private sector in developing our products and services.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Okay. I wish to concentrate on one matter that arose in the report, that is, on bonuses paid to certain employees. I understand this was in 2009 and 2010. Were they not in contravention of the financial measures legislation that was in effect at the time? If this is the case, why were they paid out?
Mr. Colin Bray:
I thank the Deputy for his question. That issue was raised in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. The amount refers to a payment of €30,000 between four ordnance survey staff members. As for the Comptroller and Auditor General's note, there are two separate elements to be addressed within the figure. The first is a payment of €20,000 to a marketing expert as per the terms of a contractual commitment and the second element is a payment totalling €10,000, which was paid to three ordnance survey staff members. If I may elaborate on the first point regarding the payment of €20,000 and going back to my opening statement and OSi's dual remit, we are fully dependent on our commercial revenue for our funding model. As referred to in the opening statement and given the downturn in the economy and the economic challenge we faced in respect of our commercial revenues, we were obliged to ensure that we were able to manage the commercial revenues for the running of the organisation. It was a necessity that we were obliged to bring in external commercial acumen to the organisation on the business and marketing side to ensure we could sustain that downturn in the economy and could grow. The sum of €20,000 relates to the procurement of a marketing expert for the organisation on a fixed-term temporary contract. That expert came into the organisation to carry out activities such as development and mentoring of business staff, the management of the development of our online business and the growth thereof and to grow the tourism and leisure product part of our business. The remuneration in question, that is, the €20,000, was part of a commercial contract for this individual. The €20,000 related to performance-related activities. The moneys involved were aligned with the costs of such expertise on the open market. A decision was made that a percentage of that salary would be related to performance measures, which were evaluated on a quarterly basis. Consequently, the €20,000 relates to that performance-related measure.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Who made that decision?
Mr. Colin Bray:
That decision was recorded in board minutes as a requirement to bring in the expertise and the approval was sought to go out and bring in that expert. The process of bringing in that expert was subject to strict controls and proper procurement and took place in 2008, prior to the moratorium.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Following on from that, what of the €10,000 that was paid to three OSi staff members?
Mr. Colin Bray:
The €10,000 that was paid to the three OSi staff members was a once-off achievement payment to three individuals in recognition of significant progress on change management initiatives. These initiatives would have been during the timeframe of 2010. I ask the committee to reflect back on that time, when we really were concentrating on and were fully engaged in securing our revenues, reacting to the downturn in the economy and ensuring that our revenue model was generated. Members can see from the figures provided in the briefing document the significant progress that was made in reducing the operating costs of the organisation over those years. Doing so obviously involved a number of activities with regard to changing work practices or getting rid of outdated work practices and this was prior to the Croke Park and enhanced Croke Park expectations. Consequently, this was a once-off achievement payment to those three members of staff.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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However, this happened in 2010.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, legislation of the time already was in place.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Was the OSi not covered by that?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Should those bonuses have been paid?
Mr. Colin Bray:
Those bonuses were paid in recognition of extensive work that was done both in putting in place the change management processes and in delivering on the requirements of the organisation and for its revenue. The Comptroller and Auditor General has recommended that we seek retrospective sanction on that and we have formally sought retrospective sanction.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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However, that is since 2010.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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As it now is October 2013, what has happened since?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Why has it taken so long? As it is October 2013, why has that money not been recouped?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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No, with all due respect, that is not a good enough answer on the basis that this took place in 2010. While I do not doubt for one second the work they did, a great many workers across the public sector probably did a great deal of work that also deserved bonuses but did not get them. I am trying to find out the reason the FEMPI legislation was not adhered to at that time and, second, the reason, three years on, we only now know there will be sanctions against them but no sign of the money being recouped.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Was the Minister informed at the time?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Would he have expected to have been informed?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Was the board aware at the time that it was going against the legislation in place in 2010?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry but I find it hard to believe the board simply decided that it understood the organisation's staff had done a great job and deserved a bonus and that although national legislation was in place that applied right across the country, it should pay the bonuses anyway.
Mr. Colin Bray:
This particular incidence was a one-off extraordinary event for Ordnance Survey Ireland. The organisation was going through an extensive challenge to ensure that it brought in its commercial revenues during a challenging downturn in the economy. Moreover, prior to the Croke Park agreement, we had to implement many change management initiatives, which were very progressive at the time, with regard to changing work practices. In respect of bringing down the organisation's operating costs, we needed to put in place many change practices within our operations. We needed to increase a significant level of automation and process, which required extensive work in making that happen. The payment was seen as being just and fair at that point in time.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I understand that but the problem is that while other State bodies were in the same position, their employees did not get bonuses and yet the board decided to overrule what was national policy at the time by paying out these bonuses. I do not understand how OSi could make that decision with an attitude of thinking that as it thought the work had been done well, it would not pay heed to the FEMPI legislation and would simply pay out these bonuses.
11:30 am
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Was the Minister informed?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The legislation was not adhered to.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Acknowledged, but not followed.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Since then, now we find out that there is a sanction to recoup this money but it has not yet been recouped.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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How recent?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Within the past month. Why has it taken until September 2013?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Why has it taken until only a month ago? If these are in the 2011 accounts, why only a month ago was it sought to be retrospectively taken back?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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If a bonus was paid out that should not have been paid out, what was in constant discussion? If I have missed something here, by all means, Mr. Bray should inform me. How can it take that length of time to say that those bonuses should not have been paid out and the agency wants to recoup them?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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It was not really being addressed.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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It is being addressed now.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Is the money still sought to be recouped?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Are those three staff still working in OSi?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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When will Mr. Bray finally have a decision on whether it will be recouped?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Is there a date on that?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Who is in control of that decision?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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When can Mr. Bray find out? Could he report back to the committee as to when that decision will be made?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Could we have an idea of when Mr. Bray might report back this?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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There was also an issue with an overpayment to the CEO. What was the background story to that?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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No overpayment?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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At all. Did she not receive money she had to pay back?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The money was recouped.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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How long did it take for that money to be recouped?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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It all is a little vague. There seems to be a great deal of information out there from accounts in 2011 and in October 2013, there does not seem to be any clarity on a number of issues. Let us be honest, it is taxpayers' money that is going into the OSi. There are overpayments. Almost three years on, the OSi is not coming back with much clarity as to how these decisions were taken and how they have been fixed since.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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How long did that period take? Were there legal costs involved?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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How much were the legal costs?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Where does the bill for that fall then?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Will that be covered by OSi's private source of funding?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Will there not be State funding provided to pay for the legal fees of an overpayment on the CEO?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Is that just it?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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On another area, I note the Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned that there might be a need for legislation on the merger of the different offices. In that regard, how far behind are we? I think it was due to end at the end of this year.
Mr. Colin Bray:
I would like to report that there has been great progress on that merger. OSi is very supportive of the process. There has been a steering group formed to drive the process comprising of three senior officials from the three parent Departments and the three chief executive officers. A number of working groups have now been established to address the merger issues and those working groups are active and making great progress.
On the timeline involved, obviously, this is a complex merger of three significant agencies with their own legislation. For the new organisation, this will require new legislation. A working group on legislation has been set up to drive that forward. I think the dependency on the timeline will be around the legislation.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Bray have any idea yet when that legislation will be published?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Obviously, Mr. Bray cannot control when the legislation will be done, but the timeline of this merger is away behind schedule.
Mr. Colin Bray:
With the establishment of the working group and the establishment of all of the sub-working groups, an awful lot of progress has been made on the benefits that the new organisation would achieve and by the working groups around the shared services, legislation, finance, technology and developing a new corporate data model for the new organisation to really achieve the efficiencies of the merger.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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While I am not sure how many are on the board, the accounts show the attendance of all the board members and the level of remuneration they got. One individual only attended one meeting but seemed to get the same remuneration as everyone else. Would Mr. Bray explain how that could be the case?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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What I am really trying to find out is how some members were there for every meeting and got the full remuneration, but one individual turned up for one meeting and seemed to get the same amount as well. How is that possible? How could it work out that way?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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On another point, while it might seem like a relatively small figure in the overall budget, there was €17,000 contributed to the staff social fund. How does that sum break down? Where did those figures go? Considering the times and how most organisations are living, how could the figure be that high? How was the money spent?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How long is Mr. Bray in position?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Generally speaking, the questions we are asking relate to before Mr. Bray's time.
Mr. Colin Bray:
They do, indeed. Yes.
Coming back with that information, the above included staff social club contribution, but also retirement pension functions and employee team-building exercises. In our accounting, we put a number of heads within that heading. To say that it was all related to one thing would not be the case. That is related to a number of subheads, including team-building exercise, retirement presentations, etc.
I can give a further breakdown on those figures to the committee.
11:40 am
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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On the three employees who received the bonuses in 2010 and considering that we only have the accounts for 2011, were any bonuses or allowances paid to any members of staff in 2012?
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Bray cannot confirm to me now from the 2012 accounts whether anyone has received any bonuses.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Or allowances?
Mr. Colin Bray:
Within the OSi, we have sanctioned allowances in regard to our flying operations and other activities associated with care of vehicles, etc. That figure is in the region of €35,000. The majority of the €35,000 allowance would be in relation to our flying operations. Obviously we are dependent on the weather for our daily collection and flying operations. We have five flight crews on call at all times and they will fly 364 days per year. That is where the figure comes from.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I understand fully, and as the Chairman said, Mr. Colin Bray is only in the position six months. However, I do not believe it is acceptable for the OSi, as an organisation, to have allowed the bonuses to be paid in 2010 when it knew it was against the financial emergency measures in the public interest legislation. I am trying to understand better how the decision was made, who made the decision, whether the Minister was aware of it and why the OSi felt it could proceed with the payment. It is important, considering the State money pumped into the organisation, that this committee would be informed of occurrences of this kind as soon as possible.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Bray
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Before I call Deputy McDonald, I would like clarification on a point. I fully appreciate that Mr. Colin Bray has been in his position only for so long. Mr. Collier is the financial officer. Is that correct?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How long is Mr. Collier in the position?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What was the value of the fixed-term contract, whereby the €20,000 was paid? What was the overall payment minus the €20,000?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It was €80,000. In the contract, there was a clause to pay €20,000 on performance.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The OSi obviously certified or examined the performance. What performance impressed the OSi so much that it paid €20,000?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that. What performance did the OSi measure? Was it turning up on time or going home on time?
Mr. Colin Bray:
There was a strict set of criteria concerning what was to be delivered within the period of the fixed-term contract. The individual was assessed in relation to that performance. There were a number of key activities involved, one of which was developing our online presence and online revenue facility. Also included was growing our tourism and leisure industry, which had taken a significant hit as a result of the downturn in the economy, and developing and mentoring our sales staff so that knowledge would be transferred to them when the individual finished the job.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What specific function did the three staff who received the €10,000 fulfil to qualify for it?
Mr. Colin Bray:
The function they fulfilled involved achieving significant change within the organisation, facilitating the change within our production environment and operating of processes, and proactively removing outdated work practices within the organisation. This had a significant impact on the organisation.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was it not part of their job to perform to a better level and introduce change, as was happening in the private sector and throughout the country at the time? What exceptional function did the staff have to warrant paying them €10,000?
Mr. Colin Bray:
The exceptional function that was involved was the effort and time devoted above the normal activities that were involved in undertaking this activity while, in parallel and at the same time, carrying out their day-to-day jobs, which were extensive at that point, bearing in mind the downturn in the economy and our need to sustain our revenue model. The decision by the then board and CEO was that the payment was warranted.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I echo what Deputy Connaughton said in regard to the legislation. I find it incredible that the board, giving each board member's responsibility, would just ignore the legislation. As I understand it, it did not make an application at the time to the Department seeking approval prior to the payment, in the full knowledge that the legislation states one cannot make the payment. I presume the Minister makes the final decision on this.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The approval Mr. Bray is now seeking, having paid the €10,000.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that, so it is the Minister and the Department that would make the decision.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How can Mr. Bray expect them to make that decision when they introduced legislation at the time in question saying what occurred should not happen? What makes the OSi different from anybody else?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It does not give Mr. Bray the right to ignore legislation. That is the point I am making; it is a simple point. The OSi blatantly ignored the legislation and is asking that the legislation be parked or ignored for three individuals – this is not personal but an administrative matter relative to legislation – considering that the whole country was doing as much as it could to keep on track, and much more than was expected.
Regarding what Mr. Bray said about his predecessor in the role of CEO, €61,000 was paid in legal costs regarding the arrangement the OSi reached. Am I correct?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Surely that CEO had a standard rate of pay. Was the pay €147,659 with the use of a company car? The bonuses paid over the various years – the years are 2010, 2009 and 2008 although the figure for 2011 was nil – were around €37,000 each year.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What did the chief executive do to warrant a bonus of €40,000 or, to take the figure from 2010, €37,000? The board would have had to approve that. What work was exceptional in that case?
11:50 am
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What caused the disagreement that cost €61,000 in legal fees? What was the end result of that?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Collier must know what is in the 2012 report.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will he give the details to the committee?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Did the bonuses for 2008 and 2009 come to €40,000 each?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How much was paid after 2009?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was that the only figure paid to the chief executive officer whose contract was being terminated?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How much was paid along with the €80,000?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yet, Mr. Collier knows the figure.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There was interest on that figure.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How much?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I will come back to that later. I call on Deputy McDonald.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I find that exchange more confusing than clarifying.
The fees concerned were over €61,000. How much was recouped by the organisation on foot of that spend?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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How long has Mr. Bray being working in the Ordnance Survey of Ireland, OSi?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Was his predecessor an OSi man?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is it the trend that the chief executive officer is recruited from within the OSi?
Mr. Colin Bray:
The former chief executive was the first from outside of the organisation. The trend would have been to take from within the organisation. It is 190 years old next year. Until several decades ago, it was very much a military organisation where the commanding officer would have been the head of the organisation. The trend would have been to have a senior surveyor as the head of the organisation.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Bray spoke earlier about the OSi contracting in a commercial marketing expert. Was this an unusual move for the organisation or is there a pattern of that also?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Would those contracts, typically, have been salaried with a performance-related element?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Was that contract type standard practice?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is that base salary plus performance-related payments?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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How did the OSi recruit this marketing expert?
Mr. Colin Bray:
The bringing in of this individual into the organisation was subject to strict controls. There was a formal process which included the chief executive and board approval. The sourcing of the marketing expertise was through a recruitment agency which would have short-listed candidates. Then there would have been a panel interview and selection.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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When was this person recruited?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What was the involvement of the parent Department in this process? Did the board require clearance from it?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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This was not a State appointment. This person was coming in on a very different contractual basis from the 200 odd public servants in the organisation.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We have now established that the parent Department was not involved in any part of the recruitment process. Is that good? For the record, I believe the OSi is a good operation. However, when it decided to bring in outside expertise and strike a contractual deal but excluded the parent Department, it does not wash with me to claim there is a commercial arm to the organisation’s activities. In the first instance, the OSi is a public service entity and provider. It receives a large subvention from the State which dwarves any of the commercial income it makes. In addition to this €20,000 bonus, in defiance of FEMPI, there is a larger issue around how the OSi would go about bringing in this marketing expertise. It is not acceptable that it would have decided or have had the authority to bring in a marketing expert without a sanction from the parent Department. I presume the board was acting within its authority.
Mr. Colin Bray:
Yes, this was in 2008 prior to the public sector recruitment moratorium. We are a public sector State body. We have a dual remit where we do commercial and non-commercial activities.
We need to contextualise this in respect of 2008, when the downturn in the economy had a significant effect on the OSi. We had to react very quickly to the changing economy.
12:00 pm
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do not doubt that.
Mr. Colin Bray:
Our funding model is dependent on commercial income, which is considerably more than the State subvention. Our responsibility was to ensure that this revenue was protected. The consequence of not taking that approach - bringing a temporary transfer of expertise into the organisation - would have had a negative effect on our bottom line and the revenue line. This would have meant looking for further funding for the organisation, which is not in our interest or that of the State.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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How long was this marketing expert with the OSI?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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So the total value of the contract would have-----
Mr. Colin Bray:
For this individual, the total value of the initial contract was €100,000, which was made up of 80% fixed salary and a 20% variable in respect of performance. During that period, the figure of €80,000 was reduced in line with reductions in salary for all of our other staff. This was a fixed-term contract for two years. It was extended because of the extension of the downturn in the economy and the challenges we faced. That contract was terminated when the job was done, we had control over our bottom line and the delivery had been completed. Obviously, there was no pension liability with regard to the additional 20%. In respect of the challenges we faced, if we had changed the terms of the engagement with that expert, there was a high risk that the expert would not have remained to complete what we needed to do to ensure we had control over our bottom line.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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So it was 2008 when the person came in and they left in late 2011 or 2012?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Late 2011?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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During the time they were there, was the contract was revised and renewed?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I think that is bad practice, notwithstanding the OSi's commercial remit, and particularly at a time when the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act was writ large and there was a moratorium in place. It may not have been in place when this individual, whoever they are, entered the OSi but had it not kicked in by the time the OSi renewed the contract?
Mr. Colin Bray:
It had, and the commercial challenges were still facing us. This individual was brought in for a specific activity. When we were satisfied that this activity had been completed, we terminated that contract at the appropriate time. Obviously, there was an extension to the level of activity involved due to the extension of the downturn in the economy and the challenge facing our funding model.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Let me preface my next remark by saying that I am not a fan of the moratorium, which is hugely damaging to public services, or the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest legislation as it has been designed and passed by the Oireachtas, but that is neither here nor there for the purposes of this discussion. The fact is that the OSi cannot and should not have any misconception within its board or anywhere else that it can defy the law or that it can set aside the moratorium that has hit the public services like a hammer. There is the issue of the bonus, but there is a much larger issue that I hope will be addressed in respect of the merger, which I want to move on to.
Mr. Bray says OSi is supportive of this merger and mentioned a subgroup or subgroups or working groups. One of them is composed of the three CEOs of the bodies in question. Can I assume that when the merger takes place there will be a single CEO for the new merged entity? Is that Mr. Bray's understanding?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Who is that person?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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So Mr. Bray's career as CEO will be a short one?
Mr. Colin Bray:
The organisation and the benefit that national mapping can provide to the State will be enhanced. When one looks at the merger of these three organisations which deal with valuation, registration and surveying, one can see they are substantial spatial information organisations. When combined, these organisations become a very valued asset to the State in terms of providing the largest spatial information platform available not only for traditional OSi activities but for the provision to the State of a spatial data infrastructure and e-Government.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do not doubt any of that. How many staff does the OSi have? Is it 250?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What figure is it down from?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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How have the OSi's pension costs gone? I am looking at a table and I can see the costs are going up. I think it is in the OSi's briefing document on page five. I am running across the line from 2008 to 2012.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Could Mr. Bray explain the magnitude of that rise?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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How much was there in lump sums?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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How many were there in the previous year?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What about the year prior to that?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I also note that the OSi has a voluntary redundancy scheme with an exit date of March 2014. Am I right in saying that? If the OSi currently has 240 employees, what number does it envisage that falling to following this redundancy scheme?
Mr. Colin Bray:
That will be dependent on how many people come forward. The numbers are a challenge for the OSi. We have come down from 330 to 240 since 2008, which is considerable. The fact that we must have an ECF of 195 by the end of this year is an additional challenge for our organisation.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Could Mr. Bray give me that figure?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Could Mr. Bray tell the committee what an ECF is?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Of 195?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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So the numbers must fall by 45?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is the operation sustainable with a fall of that magnitude?
12:10 pm
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I see that.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is not great. Does OSi take on interns? Has it used schemes such as JobBridge?
Ms Geraldine Murphy:
JobBridge has not worked out for us. We have taken on interns in the past but this year our managers are under fierce pressure with the roll out of a major project called Prime2 and are not available to help me with JobBridge. We have been trying but we cannot take interns from colleges this year because of the current pressures on staff.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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How long has Ms Murphy been in her position?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Would there have been a tradition in the organisation of taking interns?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Are those pressures directly related to short staffing and the drop in numbers?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What kind of people would OSi have typically taken on internships?
Ms Geraldine Murphy:
Graduates with GIS qualifications. Deputy McDonald may have seen in our briefing my concern about the age profile in the organisation. For succession management we brought in recruits in 2008 and 2009, who were at serious risk of the last-in-first-out policy under the redeployment scheme introduced along with this employment control framework, but mechanisms such as the voluntary redundancy scheme are helping us address that but not to the extent that they would like us to.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Could Mr. Bray tell us more about the previous CEO? Did she serve there for ten years?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was she appointed or did she come through an interview process?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the €61,000 and the termination of her contract, how and why was her contract terminated?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Why was the contract terminated? Immediately after that Mr. Bray was appointed CEO.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It was not that the position was no longer there, because Mr. Bray is CEO now. Why was the last CEO's contract terminated?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Can Mr. Brady tell us now?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It does. That was a simple answer without having to extract it from Mr. Bray. Deputy Connaughton referred to the report that is the correspondence between OSi and the Department on the approval or not of the €10,000 payments. When OSi has concluded that, which I hope will be soon, it might make that information available to us.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Another question was not answered. Why was a board member who attended only one meeting paid in full? Presumably Mr. Collier knows the answer.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In what year did this payment take place?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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This is 2013, and Mr. Collier does not know the answer.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I find that incredible. OSi is a relatively small organisation and while it may have come through some difficulties regarding restructuring and having to deal with this contract and other issues, I find it incredible that the witnesses lack some of the answers and keep referring to the 2012 accounts. When dealing with the Public Accounts Committee in 2013, the witnesses should know the answers. Why did OSi pay someone the full amount of €7,684 for attending one single meeting? Was that a decision by the board?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Who was the chairman of the board?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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On what did he base his decision? He brought a proposal to the board, I presume.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Do Mr. Mangan, Ms Murphy or Mr. Bray know anything about it?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Bray know anything about it today?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is in the 2012 accounts, is it? The witnesses were already asked about the €17,000 retirement and team-building account and referred to the fact that is was something to do with team building and retirement. Can they outline how much was spent under each heading within that €17,000?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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When was that €17,000 spent?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We are examining those accounts today and it is not good enough for Mr. Bray to say he will come back to us. They are 2011 accounts. Mr. Collier is here, Ms Murphy is here to answer on staff issues and Mr. Bray should have the answer now. Surely the answer is in the accounts.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Why not?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I know Mr. Collier will get back to me. Why is it not there? Will Mr. Collier give me the general breakdown of the headings under that €17,000. Mr. Bray said it was team building and retirement. Did he mean presentations for retirement?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How would he describe that fund? Was it for social events?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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When these retirements took place, the people who retired received lump sums according to Mr. Bray's earlier comments.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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So, they received lump sums and then the organisation made some sort of presentation to them in 2011.
12:20 pm
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Like what?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The sum is €17,000. Regarding team building, what would you do for that?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Would they do that on-site or off-site?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I find it incredible that Mr. Bray's organisation would come before the Committee of Public Accounts to deal with the 2011 accounts and Mr. Bray would not have the detail he should have. Mr. Bray said earlier that he prepared very well for this meeting. I appreciate it is not in his time but this is a serious committee and when we meet here we should get the answers. When is he likely to make all the information he promised to this committee available to the committee? How long will it take him to get these answers for us?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Within a week.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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My last question is on the lease of offices. Ordnance Survey Ireland has a number of regional offices, is that right?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does it own them or lease them?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What will happen when the organisation merges? How will those offices be affected? Does it have long leases on them?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Are there upward only rent reviews in those leases?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Can Mr. Collier obtain from the OPW the lease details and the costs because this committee is tired chasing the OPW and other State agencies and being pushed from pillar to post to get information? Mr. Collier might get that information for us and make it available to the committee.
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Bray and his officials for attending. My apologies if I ask questions that were asked already and if I do, please stop me because I will have to leave for a vote.
I will begin by looking at the basic accounts and the OSi's revenue streams. What is it making money from commercially?
Mr. Colin Bray:
Our revenue streams commercially are leasing of spatial information. As the national mapping agency we maintain the national spatial database, the topographic database. We create products and services from that and they would be in relation to mapping, with which the Deputy may be familiar, tourism and leisure maps and hill-walking maps, but primarily the use of our data would be the use of digital information. That is under a contract term whereby we maintain the data and supply data under that contract term.
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Would a semi-State utility company, for example, be regarded as a commercial contract or is that-----
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Does commercial revenue make up about 90% of money coming into the OSi?
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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And the rest is made up by the Department.
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Are there two elements to what the Department is paying the OSi? Is the agreement in place to make up the shortfall that commercial revenue does not make up or how does that work?
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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The only payment made is the service level agreement.
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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I am aware the pension arrangement is new as of the beginning of 2011 but before that it was just a service level agreement, SLA.
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Would the final figure of that be decided at end of year? Does OSi have to make up the 10% difference? If it is down-----
Mr. Colin Bray:
The SLA is not about making up the difference; it is around value for money in relation to that SLA. It is not there as a mechanism to cover a shortfall. We run ourselves as a commercial operation, and that would be one element of the funding. It is my responsibility to manage that bottom line as in bringing in additional commercial revenue and reduce operating costs. The SLA is only one part of our funding model but it is not there to bridge a shortfall; it is there as a legitimate activity for national interest work that would not be undertaken by another organisation. In managing the bottom line, that is within our control and that is our responsibility.
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Bray's position now is the new CEO in the organisation. Is he hoping to expand the OSi's commercial activities? The climate has been difficult in recent years but looking into the future, is he hoping to increase that figure more than 90%?
Mr. Colin Bray:
Our modus operandi all the time is to increase and grow the business where possible. Obviously, over the past number of years that has been very challenging; one can see that from the revenue streams. However, we have put a number of initiatives in place to sustain and, in certain areas, grow that revenue.
Regarding the future revenue of the organisation, our activity is to grow that. Parallel to that we have the merger of Ordnance Survey Ireland, the Property Registration Authority and the function of the Valuation Office.
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Prime2 is one of the new tools the OSi has brought out in the past two years. It is due for completion this year. Is that on schedule?
Mr. Colin Bray:
The Prime2 is a significant project for the State, not just Ordnance Survey Ireland. We have been working on the Prime2 strategy for close on seven years and that is to put in a new national spatial infrastructure for the State. We talk about the digital mapping we have and how the local authorities, the telcos, etc., would use that information for their own operations.
Over the past seven years we have put in a strategy to develop a new digital mapping system for the State. The first four years involve research, development, understanding best in breed, and waiting for international standards to become robust. We have had a commercial contract over the past two years to re-engineer our data into that new data model, and that will be complete by the end of this year. That provides an international standards-based new platform for Ordnance Survey Ireland and also for the State. The data can be used by customers and by users in an industry-standard format of a very high quality.
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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When does OSi expect to start making money from that project on a commercial level?
Mr. Colin Bray:
When we say "making money from that", that project as an initiative provides Ordnance Survey Ireland with the ability to get more efficiencies in how we maintain the national spatial database but also, because it is standards-based and is the latest of industry-standard spatial information, it gives us the ability to leverage that to create new products and services.
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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When Mr. Bray looks at OSi's existing customer base, was that a project undertaken to keep OSi in the game or to enhance the value of the services OSi is providing and therefore charge more money? Was it to keep OSi in the playing field?
Mr. Colin Bray:
It was a number of factors. The justification on the Prime2 project was threefold. One was sustainability. As an organisation we are one of the most technologically advanced national mapping agencies in the world. We have been within the digital environment for close on 30 or 35 years. The standardisation of that digital database for the State, conceptually, was nearly 30 years old. As a national spatial platform it was coming to end of life. From a sustainability point of view, therefore, we needed to create a new industry-standard database which will be one of the forerunners within Europe. That enables us to create new products and services from that.
The second factor was productivity and efficiency. Because the system is standards-based and a single data holding - a combination of three existing databases - we have been able to rationalise maintenance flow lines. We have been able to reduce the amount of effort required by us in maintaining that database. That is the justification for that.
In terms of business growth, we now have an opportunity to create products we could not have created heretofore, including detailed road centre line products and enhanced web services. In terms of web service provision, this involves provision by us of digital information as a service over the Internet. By removing the overhead from the end user, they are able to access, stream and use our data. The functionality and detail of that web service is dependent on the quality and intelligence of the data with Prime2, which enables us to do far more in this environment. Enhanced opportunities and revenue from web services is-----
12:30 pm
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Will it help to close the 10% shortfall in the organisation?
Mr. Colin Bray:
It will go a significant way towards doing that. In terms of what is required in addition to that, the investment made by Ordnance Survey Ireland in the Prime2 project also provides the State with significant opportunities. In terms of e-Government and ensuring greater interoperability in government services and data, this is all related to how accurately and consistently we can relate information to each other. Prime2 provides the State with a unique standardised way of relating spatial information, unique IDs, standard location, intelligent spatial information. When this is released as a platform to the State, in terms of how local authorities, the Valuation Office and Property Registration Authority do their work, there are significant benefits for the State in having a modern spatial infrastructure.
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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In terms of the merger, what will happen to the money which Ordnance Survey Ireland brings in? Will it be moved to a central fund following the organisation's merger with the Valuation Office or will it become the organisation's dedicated income stream?
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Bray have a preference?
Mr. Colin Bray:
Great emphasis is placed in the current Ordnance Survey Act on the need to reduce reliance on the Exchequer. This places a healthy obligation on the organisation in terms of its commercial thinking and how it deals with customers and product development. Similar merged organisations around the world, including in other European member states, also engage in commercial activity.
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. Bray concerned that the culture within Ordnance Survey Ireland might be dampened by the merger?
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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In terms of the funding which the organisation receives from the State, I presume in the context of the pooling of commercial revenue streams, there will be one single payment to the new organisation from the State. Will this be negotiated between the different entities?
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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How will that be decided? If each of the bodies has a preferred choice, will the Minister making a ruling on the matter?
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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It will be for the Minister to decide how the different elements of accounting are sorted out.
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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As part of that process, what will be the pension liability of the OSi? What in Mr. Bray's view will happen in that regard?
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Am I correct that following the change which occurred at the end of 2010-beginning of 2011, the Department took on that liability?
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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What is Mr. Bray hoping will happen in this space as part of the merger? Is he hoping that the pension liability will transfer to the new organisation or will it continue to be ring-fenced in a service level agreement which OSi maintains separately with the Department?
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. Bray aware of the pension liabilities of the other organisations involved in the merger?
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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What is the timeline for completion of the different elements of the merger?
Mr. Colin Bray:
There are many working groups involved in reviewing legislation, finance, human resources and shared services. There is relatively modern legislation in place, dating from 2001 to 2006, governing the three organisations. However, they are considerable pieces of legislation. The effort of combing all of this legislation in respect of the new organisation will be considerable which, in turn, will determine the timeline.
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Is the merger likely to happen in the lifetime of the current Government or is it likely to take more than two and a half years to complete?
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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I would like to also discuss the postcode issue with Mr. Bray. Has this issue already been discussed?
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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What is the involvement of Ordnance Survey Ireland in this matter?
Mr. Colin Bray:
Ordnance Survey Ireland produces national mapping and spatial information. It also owns 49% of GeoDirectory, which is a company that produces and maintains the national address database. Ordnance Survey Ireland's interaction with the postcodes will be based on its understanding of spatial information. Spatial information is OSi's business and we will be very supportive of the postcodes initiative. As part of national infrastructure, it provides a significant element of the data management level. When we talk about consistently relating information, we talk also about decision making based on multiple data sources and analysis. Having a national postcode system will significantly enhance this process. It will be very positive for the geographic information industry.
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Is OSi selling information as part of the roll out of the new postcode system? Will it, as an organisation, profit from the postcode system?
Mr. Colin Bray:
Much will depend on the solution. I understand contract negotiations with the successful tender are ongoing. There are two potential elements for OSi, depending on the agreed solution. One would be the provision of addresses, which would be through GeoDirectory and the second is the provision of spatial information from the national mapping agency. In terms of the knock-on effects of this process for OSi, we would see as a positive outcome generating that other level of intelligence in the State's spatial information. We would see postcodes increasing the use of spatial information in the State, which is also good for national mapping.
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Am I correct that OSi owns 49% of GeoDirectory?
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Who owns the remaining 51%?
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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What is Mr. Bray's preferred model in terms of the roll out of the new postcodes system?
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Would OSi be consulted on the matter?
12:40 pm
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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That information would be provided to all the bidders, including An Post.
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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That included An Post.
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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There is a partnership with An Post in GeoDirectory.
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Is that unusual?
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Who won the bid on the postcodes?
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Okay. How does the bidding process work when companies come to Ordnance Survey Ireland seeking information?
Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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The same information is provided to each party.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The bad debt has increased by 59%. What is the bad debt in this respect and who owes money to the agency?
Mr. Charles Collier:
We have approximately €8 million in business to private customers and in the past five years there have been a number who just could not pay. The bad debts over five years indicate we have written off - between provision and write-offs - approximately €50,000 per year. That is due to liquidations or people not being able to pay. We carefully manage debtors but in certain cases we could not do anything about it.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It was €72,000 in 2010 and it has increased by 59% to €115,000 in 2011. What does it look like for 2012?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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To make a comparison, it was €72,000 in 2010 and it was €115,000 in 2011.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is the €115,000 collectable?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is €115,000. Without naming people, who are these parties? Are these private individuals, companies or local authorities?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is that mainly where the bad debt comes from?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What arrangement is there within the organisation to go after bad debt? Is there any substantial bad debt not being paid?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is all small debt.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That brings us to the end of the meeting. We have already disposed of the annual accounts for 2012 for Forfás. I propose to keep the Ordnance Survey Ireland annual accounts for 2011 open until the 2012 accounts are received, and we can then consider both of them. That is also subject to the information we requested at this morning's hearing. I thank the witnesses for coming along, and although we may have dwelled on the negatives, unfortunately that is much of the work of our committee. I acknowledge the very fine work being done by the organisation but there are issues regarding governance and pension liabilities, etc., that we will have to deal with in the context of public expenditure and reform. I encourage Mr. Bray to get the information to us as soon as possible.