Mr. John Roche:

Let me clarify what I said about machines. In our experience, the total number of machines is somewhere in the region of 20,000. These figures are available from the Revenue Commissioners. About 6,000 machines, depending on the season, are in arcades licensed under the 1956 Act, while about 7,000 are in arcades licensed under the 1992 Finance Act. We believe, just from what we see every day, that there are probably about another 5,000 machines which are being pushed into the backs of pubs, takeaways and hackney offices, but it will never be possible to find out where they are or who is installing them until the licensing process proposed in the Bill is implemented. I have letters which date back to the period 2004 to 2006 when the association continuously wrote and had a meeting with the then Minister for the Environment in an effort to eliminate these unlicensed machines.

Mr. Galvin would be more informed than me about the criminal aspects, but on the evidence available to us in the past 34 years, petty criminals are involved in the distribution of machines. I do not think organised criminals are involved. It is more likely to be a guy with a barn or a shed, with perhaps a dozen machines which he puts around the place and pulls out if he thinks there is a difficulty.