Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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We move to a discussion on the report, Time To Go, by the National Youth Council of Ireland, NCYI, which was launched in May. I welcome the delegates, Ms Marie-Claire McAleer, senior research and policy officer, NYCI, who is joined by her colleagues, Mr. James Doorley and Ms Mary Cunningham, and I thank them for attending. This annual report is very timely as there has been much discussion in recent weeks on this topic. In private session the committee discussed how we might take on this topic in general and read other related reports, so it is good to have this discussion.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in regard to a particular matter and you continue to do so you are entitled thereafter to only a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter is to be given and are asked to respect parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible you should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I ask Ms McAleer to make her presentation.

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer:

Do we still have ten minutes?

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer:

I thank the committee for the invitation to make a presentation on youth emigration. I will base my input on research we published last May, published under the title Time To Go, and will also draw on research published by UCC last Friday. Time To Go is a qualitative research study exploring the experience and impact of emigration on young emigrants who left the country in the past two years, bound for to Canada and the UK, and looks at their experience and the impact that experience has had on them as individuals. For details of the background to the study, the research methodology, the findings and recommendations, I refer members to the report, which has been circulated in advance.

Given the time limitations today and the remit of this committee, I will focus on the most salient and relevant aspects of the research - the economic policy implications of large-scale emigration of young people from Ireland. I will frame the presentation in the context of the impact of emigration on the economy and the consequent skills losses, looking at two main issues, namely, the economic costs and the impact of demographic changes on the labour market arising from emigration.

To begin, I will give a brief overview of some of the data currently available on the numbers leaving. It is estimated that in the past five years 177,000 young people in the age cohort 15-24 years have left Ireland, and a further 209,000 aged between 25 and 44 years have also left. The number leaving continues to rise, with 89,000 having left the State up to April 2013. The numbers emigrating are concentrated mainly in the youth population. At the start of the recession the outward migration was mainly accounted for by workers from new EU member states. However, since 2010 the number of Irish nationals emigrating has increased significantly and now accounts for more than half of those leaving.

Our own research and quantitative data reveal that emigration affects a quarter of all families throughout the country and that half of 18 to 24 year-olds have considered emigration as an option. Dr. Mary Gilmartin published material on immigration last year, explaining the reasons for the fact that we are receiving significant numbers immigrating into the country. She attributed this to a shortage of workers with appropriate skills in some areas. Another interesting finding to consider is that emigrants are now going much further. We used to export people to the UK but now some 16% are going to Australia while Canada is receiving approximately 6% and the UK is taking about a quarter of the emigrating population.

The UCC EMIGRE study provides rich data on the profile of those leaving. It is of particular relevance to the work of this committee in respect of the skills losses that arise from emigration. A total of 62% of recent Irish emigrating graduates hold a tertiary degree of education. Some 17% of Irish emigrants worked in construction or construction-related industry. A figure of 47% had left full-time jobs while just under 40 of these emigrants left because they wanted to travel and experience new cultures. These were often people with qualifications other countries coveted, such as valuable IT skills or were health professionals. A significant proportion left to find another job or to attain job experience that was not available to them at home. That combined figure was 46%. Underemployment was a major driving factor with 13% of those working in part-time jobs before departure. Some 23% of those leaving were unemployed before departure. To reiterate, 76% left to find a job abroad who were unemployed before they left. More than 70% were in their 20s, with a significant number in their 30s, mainly the early 30s.

In Time To Go, we recommended that profiling such as that done in the study done by the EMIGRE study be continued on an ongoing basis. The reason for this is to inform a strategy that will incentivise return migration in the future, a point I will return later in my presentation. I refer to the economic costs, without ignoring the significant social costs. Although emigration costs the State money in the long term it may help temporarily to alleviate the problem of unemployment. When one considers the prevalence of large-scale emigration of highly qualified and highly skilled young people, however, it represents a significant brain drain. Any future upturn in the economy requires a pool of well-educated young people to attract investment and to stimulate and sustain economic growth. Many emigrants felt that Ireland was losing a vital part of its youth population at a crucial time when such vitality and innovation were required.

It is commonly accepted that economic growth leads to a reduction in emigration. We acknowledge the work of the committee in this regard, particularly the report, creating policies that work, published in February. The issue of how to reduce the loss and increase the gain to the economy as a result of emigration, however, is a key question that requires further consideration. For those young people who left with no option but to emigrate, every effort should be made to attract them back to Ireland when jobs in the Irish labour market become available.

Employment is more likely to be found in exporting high technological sectors where highly skilled services play a greater role. As already identified, new jobs are already concentrated on services such as information, professional and scientific and technical activities. We would all agree that young people are a valuable commodity to the labour market and every effort should be made to retain them through the implementation of the youth guarantee; a series of evidence-based activation measures to support young job seekers; rigorous evaluation of existing resource allocation to ensure optimum results; promotion of youth entrepreneurship; realising the potential of social enterprise particularly for engaging with disadvantaged young job seekers; and an education system that responds to skills demands in the labour market, has a balance of vocational and academic learning, improved career guidance, has greater emphasis on personal and social development and also promotes foreign languages. It is worth considering that we have a very high number of 25 to 34 year olds who have completed tertiary education and there are still a significant number of jobless unskilled young people. Therefore, there is a need to reflect the needs of the labour market and resource training that provides participants with the skills and knowledge to access the labour market.

In this regard I wish to highlight that 40% of all jobs in the future will require a technical skill or a foreign language. This committee has already identified ICT skills as important in future job creation. Yet only 3% of primary schools in Ireland have foreign language tuition compared with 31% across the EU. The need for a much greater focus on promotion of foreign languages was the significant factor that came to light in our research. The emigrants highlighted the need to promote foreign languages in order that young people have the linguistic skills to compete nationally and internationally for work and that they are more attractive to employers from non-English speaking countries.

I shall refer briefly to the demographic changes arising from emigration and the impact on the labour market. The estimate for the numbers currently emigrating is alarming and indicates that if emigration continues at the same pace there will be a significant change in the age structure of the population. This has implications for the health policy and for pensions.

Prior to the economic crisis, Ireland exhibited one of the largest youth cohorts in the OECD, accounting for 16%. As a result of rising emigration, the percentage currently stands at 12%. It has implications for pensions and many other social policy issues. How should the Government respond? Without a stable economic environment and an active labour market high rates of youth unemployment and youth emigration will continue to prevail. The Irish State must, therefore, continue to work towards economic recovery to provide a stable economic environment that can attract migrants back to Ireland when the economy recovers.

One of the positive aspects of emigration is that many who emigrate acquire new skills, knowledge and capital. The vast majority in our study expressed a strong desire to return home in the future if jobs were available to them in Ireland. The emigrant study found that 39.5% of all emigrants would like to return in the next three years, however, only 22% see this as likely and 82% said that improvements to the Irish economy would improve their likelihood of returning. This reinforces the need for the Government to invest in a strategy to incentive return migration. Such return is essential in the recovery of Ireland's economy and makes economic sense. It is also vital for future economic growth and the social fabric of Irish society.

In the case of emigration and the consequences of losing a significant proportion of the population, the State should consider ways of attracting these people back in five or ten years' time. What is required is a long-term plan which is responsive to changes in migration demography and responsive to the needs of those who have emigrated from Ireland. It should include a plan which leads with a public employment service and also considers whether adequate housing and social services are in place for returning emigrants. These issues need to be considered now and the data are important in this regard.

I wish to highlight the recent OECD economic survey of Ireland which stated that Ireland should not be complacent about return migration. International competition to attract workers with specialised skills has become fiercer and the automatic return of migrant workers should not be taken for granted. Tracking emigrants and investing in the facilitation of return migration could reduce the risk of permanent loss of valuable qualified workers from the labour market. The information deficit that has existed to date needs to be addressed in order to ensure accurate and responsive policy planning.

Emigration needs to be commensurate with having a significant impact on the Irish economy and on Irish society. While it is often considered as a panacea to addressing the problem of unemployment in the short to medium term, it should be recognised that the long-term impact of emigration can cause significant problems in terms of skills, labour shortages, salary costs and long-term economic growth.

I am happy to take any questions on the presentation or the research reports.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that and thank Ms McAleer.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the National Youth Council of Ireland delegation and thank it for its work. This is the first study or snapshot we have ever had of a generation. Does the delegation plan to keep it updated by reviewing the cohort surveyed to hear what they have to say, perhaps, this time next year? Last weekend in my constituency, because of the all-Ireland final, many people returned from Australia. I met one man who flew into Dublin from Australia on Saturday evening and left Dublin again on Sunday evening. He had planned on staying around if my county won but he returned as we all did. He was one of, perhaps, 200 who returned from Australia and America for the game. Their attachment to home is still raw and passionate. That is the cohort that has been surveyed but the older emigrants also come back. I am enormously frustrated that this issue does not get the coverage it deserves. I suspect if Dublin was being cleaned out in the same way as areas outside it are being cleaned out, one would read about it in every newspaper. The issue is covered in a very stupid manner. The survey shows how serious this is as problem and I hope it acts as a wake-up call to those who decide what is to be covered.

A quarter of every family in the country is affected. A brother of mine is away for the past 20 years. Some 62% of those who have gone in the cohort surveyed have a third level education. That is the plank on which we will rebuild the country. They are gone. Only 39% want to return. I would be interested to have that percentage revisited as time goes by. Will that percentage increase? As people are away for longer, will they want come back? My concern is that the percentage will decrease as people get settled. One of the factors in this particular wave of emigration is that entire families are leaving with a loss to the school, the community and the team, whereas previously it was one member or, perhaps, the breadwinner. Were those family units in the cohort surveyed or were they all non-family people in terms of their age profile?

We are going to get through this problem and the whole notion of a bringing them home to stay strategy is important. What examples can be cited of good practice around the world where countries have gone after their emigrants to bring them home, following an economic recovery? In regard to the cohort surveyed, Ms McAleer said 62% had a third level education. What about the remainder? Have they got a craft, a skill, or are they completely unskilled? What needs to be done to give them the skills to come home?

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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After Ms McAleer's response we shall move on.

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer:

I agree with everything the Deputy has said. The one in four figure is particularly acute in rural areas.

I need to clarify that some of the quantitative data was from the UCC study but the NYCI's study was qualitative with the exception of a poll of sample size of 1,000 people that was undertaken by Red C.

With regard to the young people that we spoke to, I dedicated a chapter to the impact and that includes the generation gap and the impact on the family. The revelations that I heard were very sad. I did not go into detail about the social impact because I was conscious of the committee's remit. The impact on the family is very significant. Many grandparents are considering leaving because their children have left and their grandchildren want to be closer to their grandparents. They are considering relocation.

In terms of facilitating return migration, I am very aware of countries who are trying to attract skilled people like Canada and Australia. I think Ireland will be in the same position. I have referenced the following in the study. In 1991 the National Economic and Social Council conducted a study on the social and economic impact and implications of emigration. The NESC, in its study, made some very good recommendations on strategy and how it would need to engage with public employment services in order to incentivise return migration. A lot of the findings are extremely relevant to the situation today.

Ireland is not very good at planning for the future and policy planning tends to be reactive. Up until now there has not been any data gathered on the profile of the people leaving. There has been a data deficit. The Central Statistics Office collects data but it does not disaggregate whether it is Irish or non-Irish citizens. Therefore, one needs to examine the CSO's data and the immigration figures from receiving countries. There is not a lot of information available. The UCC study is the first of its kind. We need to put in place a tracking mechanism to profile the age, qualifications and destination of emigrants. If we did so then we could get a picture of the numbers leaving, respond properly and thus inform a policy response. The number of people concerned suggests that we need a dedicated policy response.

Another question was whether NYCI intended to conduct a follow up study. We would love to carry out a follow-up study but we will not track the same group because it is a qualitative research study, not a longitudinal study. We are extremely interested in conducting a follow-up study because ongoing data collection of this nature is extremely important. Obviously resources are key for conducting such research although the study was done on a shoestring budget.

I gave a flavour of some of the key findings of the UCC study. However, the UCC study was very large and contains a lot of information that would be very useful to explore and may be relevant to the policy areas of other committees.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms McAleer. We will extend an invitation to the authors of the report which will be a great addition to today's discussion.

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer:

Great.

Kathryn Reilly (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the National Youth Council of Ireland to the committee. I wish to ask a number of questions, some of which follow on from the questions already mentioned.

The UCC study was released at the weekend. It shows that 60% of the emigrants have a third level qualification and 47% of them were in employment prior to leaving. I am very cognisant that even though we are in the middle of a recession, there has been an increase in low wage casual employment and a casualisation of the labour market. There has also been an increase in under-employment given that it now accounts for one third of part-time workers. When the NYCI conducted its research did participants mention the kind of work that they did in Ireland before they left? I do not want a message to leave the committee that these young emigrants just decided to go to Australia, for example, even though they had a good job. We do not want to paint the wrong picture and return to emigration being thought of as a lifestyle choice. I would like to hear the council's comments on the matter.

I shall return to the third level qualification issue. Ms McAleer mentioned the Dr. Mary Gilmartin study on the shortage of workers with appropriate skills and mismatched education with the labour market. Has the education system been designed to give people the necessary skills? What do we need from the education system? What is the role of the youth guarantee in education?

A comment was made that the strategy to incentivise people to return, hinges on public employment services. That is true for the youth guarantee and for the people who are here already that remain in terms of the live register. What role does the NYCI see for the youth guarantee in terms of skills here and incentivising people to return? Is there another strategy to incentivise people to return?

The live register will show gains due to increased emigration and there will be a decreased expenditure on jobseeker's allowance but these are short-term gains. Emigration costs and causes many long-term problems. Can the NYCI identify the main problems caused by emigration?

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer:

I shall answer the first two questions and my colleague, Mr. James Doorley, will respond to the question on the youth guarantee.

With regard to the participants in our study, many of them spoke about having limited opportunities and labour market opportunities at home. Many of them left because they had to and because they where unemployed. They went through the same experiences that the committee is so familiar with. Young jobseekers found it very demoralising having to sign on and were tired of the exhaustive unsuccessful search for jobs. They felt that their opportunities were limited which was the determining factor that prompted their decision to leave. Other people simply wanted to go. The responses were mixed and there were positive and negative stories. Both studies re-enforced the notion that emigration is complex, emigrants have many different experiences and not everyone must leave because they have to. I would argue that the vast majority emigrate because Ireland does not offer them the same opportunities they can attain abroad. The emigrants faced many challenges and one of them was that job searching was quite challenging. They had a perception that they would walk into a job when that was not always the case. Resources were also a problem for young emigrants.

The Senator had a question on the statistic that 47% of emigrants had left a job. If one reads the entire research report then one will find that under-employment was mentioned quite a lot. Some of the participants worked in full-time jobs but ones that were unrelated to their skills and qualifications. They also said that they had no career prospects. Some of them worked in jobs under threat of further wage cuts or the jobs were precarious in nature. Therefore, they were uncertain that they could pay their mortgage. There was also a threat that they might lose their jobs due to the recession. There were a lot of factors at play.

We need a greater balance between academic, vocational and technical learning. We need to focus on the soft skills of social and personal development which the youth work sector is so good at. We also really need to focus on foreign languages because that is where future jobs lie. ICT is another area. We also need to ensure two things. First, there must be rigorous evaluation of training programmes. Second, if the programmes do not work then the money must be redirected towards programmes that do. Some 17% of Irish emigrants worked in construction before they left and they probably left school early in order to join the industry. They need to be supported and provided with new skills in order to enter the labour market. Training needs to reflect the skills and demands of the labour market. I shall refer the question on the youth guarantee to my colleague.

Mr. James Doorley:

I shall comment in terms of the NYCI's sense of the youth guarantee concerning the 18 to 25 years cohort. It would help if the youth guarantee was implemented, as it is supposed to be, and every young person received a personal development plan or some sort of a map that stated what help will be provided over a period of a year or two. I am not saying that such a provision would stop all emigration. It would stem the flow and young people would feel that they were making some progression. Ms McAleer made the following point.

As the report showed, many young people were in full-time jobs but were not certain how long those jobs would last or perhaps the conditions were fairly poor. If young people have a particular qualification and have no prospects of getting a job in that area, they will make what I think are very rational decisions. A young person will say he or she is qualified to be a health professional, for example, but is currently working in a service industry, does not know how long he or she will be in it and that it is better to go to another jurisdiction, such as Canada or Australia, to get a job for which he or she is qualified. At least his or her qualification is being used because he or she knows that if he or she hangs around for five years until jobs become available here in that area, the chances are that an employer will say he or she has never worked in that area and will ask what he or she has been doing. I think young people make very rational choices.

I refer to the issue of young people feeling their lives are being postponed. If one is in a poorly paid job with poor conditions, one cannot put down any roots. That came up in our study a few years ago and it came up in Ms McAleer's work in that young people see that they can get a job in the area in which they are qualified and can actually make some good money. We think the youth guarantee would give people some certainty.

Some 62% of those leaving have a third level qualification. That says to me that those leaving have qualifications and maybe have some resources. Young people who do not have qualifications and maybe do not have any family resources or resources of their own are in a more difficult situation. Emigration is not an option for them because they know that if they go to Canada, Australia or some other jurisdiction, it will be hard to get a job because they do not have qualifications and they do not have the €1,000 to fly to Canada or Australia. That is why the youth guarantee is very important because emigration is not a safety valve for many young people here. We think that if it was implemented properly, it would give young people some sense of certainty and a path, which is what many of them want but do not have currently.

When we meet groups from abroad, they are shocked that in a small country with a population of 4.4 million, huge numbers have left. They ask about long-term planning in the labour market, leaving aside the social cost. Hopefully, in five to ten years' time, we will not have these levels of unemployment and this huge cohort of people whose qualifications we do not really know. We know roughly how many people have gone but we do not know how many engineers have left the country. We cannot train an engineer overnight in that a person must go through college and so on. We could actually have labour shortages where we must bring people from other jurisdictions in to fill the vacancies. We need to do a bit more long-term planning and hope the jobs will be there.

How can we keep in contact? We are not doing that. The sense is that these young people have gone and we are not doing anything to give them a sense that we want them to come back. They are coming back for the all-Ireland and for family events but there is a sense that they are gone. Maybe Ms McAleer would know more than I would but they feel they have been a bit forgotten about.

Ms Marie-Clare McAleer:

To touch on what Deputy Calleary said, I agree, to an extent, about the discourse around this issue. When I spoke to the young people, they said it felt like they are gone and that no one was responding to the issue. They mentioned the political system. To some extent, the discourse has been set by the media and there is this focus on whether one leaves by choice or necessity. While that is important, we really need to get passed that and put in place a policy response which takes on board the needs of the country, supports young people who are still here and tries to retain them and ensures we can get people back. In this regard, we can be very proactive.

If Government funded the ongoing collection of quantitative data on who is leaving the country, it would be extremely useful because we cannot have a policy response if we do not know where people are going and their profiles, ages and qualifications. If jobs arise, how can we possibly keep in touch with them?

The other aspect of the research that was fascinating was that these people keep in touch with what is going on in Ireland on a daily basis. They read The Irish Times and the Irish Independent , they know what is going on in the political system and they want to be engaged. They are leaving the country but they feel there is a silence around it and that it is just not spoken about possibly because of recession and the focus being on creating the conditions for job creation. It is really important we have a strategy in place.

John Lyons (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in today. It is always good to see them. I refer to the figures in the executive summary. I do not have the full report here in which I probably could get the answer. The executive summary refers to 177,000 young people between the ages of 15 and 24 and 209,000 young people between the ages of 25 and 44 estimated to have left Ireland in the past five years. Will Ms McAleer clarify what is stated further on that, in total since 2008, 200,600-----

Ms Marie-Clare McAleer:

Some 200,600.

John Lyons (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I am doing the maths but that does not make sense. Ms McAleer might clarify why those two figures do not add up to the last figure. If one adds 177,000 and 209,000 together, it is 386,000.

Ms Marie-Clare McAleer:

The first of the two figures is taken from the CSO population and migration estimates, which were published last month. I will have to come back to the Deputy on the second one because he is right in that the maths do not add up.

John Lyons (Dublin North West, Labour)
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As it is such a pertinent issue, it is very important the facts are in front of us and nothing else.

Ms Marie-Clare McAleer:

Absolutely.

John Lyons (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I am really keen to know if the witnesses have ideas on a strategy to incentivise people to come back because we do not have the answer. If anyone has ideas or opinions, it would be very important to hear them.

We have the figures, or at least estimates, for 2008 onwards but how do they compare to figures for the five years before 2008 so that we can get a real comparison as to how much things have really shifted since the recession? It is really important to put everything into perspective because politicians, in particular, are afraid. The Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, got an awful beating on the radio one day over a comment he made but there will always be push and pull factors when it comes to emigration. That is not to dismiss what is happening but it must be kept in the background too.

As Deputy Calleary said, there is not a family which has not been touched by emigration. My niece was home from Australia for five weeks over the summer. It was great to see her and her new baby. There will always be tough issues around people leaving. However, we must get the facts on the push and pull factors and on what we are doing to ensure the push factors are limited as much as possible.

Much is being done currently, which must be acknowledged. I mention the Pathways to Work strategy 2013, which was updated earlier this year, and the setting up of an implementation team to oversee the roll-out of the strategy, which contains 50 points and which specifically focuses on young people who are unemployed. The youth guarantee is mentioned in it and how to roll that out so that we reduce the push factors in regard to people who are, to a certain extent, being coerced into leaving. Social causes is included in that policy. The particular team, which was set up and is being headed by Mr. Martin Murphy, has a really good blend of policy and industry experts who know how to create, and who have created, jobs in Ireland and who know about the lives of the people out of work. It is important to put on the record the fact much is being done. Of the 4,000 places on the Momentum initiative, a particular number are for the under 25s. In the context of the conversation we are having today, it is important to at least put that on the record. However, I do not want to come across as if I am pretending it is not happening but let us put it all into perspective and deal with the raw issues that are based completely on facts, including the pre-2008 figures which are really important because they will give us an indication of the extent of emigration, horrific as it is and how it is being exacerbated by the times in which we have lived for the past five years.

One of the best things we can do, which I will most definitely pursue, is to establish how the State and the Government can try to come up with some sort of incentive strategy and long-term plan to get people back. That is a really interesting point and I was delighted Ms McAleer mentioned it. I would like to hear her thoughts on it even if it is not today. I know Mr. Doorley and the other witnesses will come back to us, which we would really appreciate, because we would be willing to do what we can.

Ms Marie-Clare McAleer:

I am delighted to hear that. We would be delighted to make future submissions to the committee on that. In that regard, there is a broad range of stakeholders who would be really valuable in terms of making a contribution.

That would be valuable in terms of making a contribution.

The Deputy mentioned the picture of immigration and emigration in the past ten years. Dr. Mary Gilmartin, who is a migrant specialist, published in this area last year. I refer members to her study, The changing landscape of Irish migration, 2000-2012. It would be important that she would present that to the committee because she is an expert in the area and can give members much more detail than I can in such a short session.

In terms of the figures, the 200,600 refers to the number of Irish people who have emigrated but I must highlight that, again, we have not had good data on this and it is important to ensure that the data collected in the census includes emigration or that there is more data on the profile of those who are leaving.

On the limit on the push factors, we acknowledge the work of this committee. I have read at length the reports it has produced and acknowledge the Springboard, Momentum and some of the ICT conversion skills initiatives. There is a good deal being done but it is about investing in quality education and training and having enough places to meet the demands. We must examine the reasons people are leaving and the evidence suggests they are leaving because of the labour market and the conditions at home. They are leaving for better opportunities career and salary wise and a better standard of living abroad. That is what the UCC study said to me, and as I said it is a very detailed report and covers many different aspects.

A new dimension is that we have a history of emigration and people came back. The question of whether people will return is up in the air, so to speak. A previous question was whether the recent emigrants would come back. That depends on one's personal circumstances but the consultation with the emigrants leaving now seems to suggest they would be open to it but there must be enough of a pull to bring them back.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Ms McAleer is very welcome. This is a very interesting topic. Ms McAleer is right in that we have a history of emigration. Deputy Calleary mentioned earlier that we have not seen entire families emigrating but we have seen that. It has been two or three generations but entire families did emigrate and we did not see them again.

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer:

Yes.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Our relationship with the people who have emigrated in recent years is far greater than it ever was because of IT, including Twitter, Facebook and Skype, which is a great benefit to families. I have experience of that personally as my daughter has been away for a number of years. We are talking about bringing people back. We talk about our diaspora, which is something I am working on in a different concept. When travelling around the United States recently I met a man who had been away for 27 years and I was the first person from Cork who had ever contacted him to talk about Cork. We do not appear to have a database of all the people who have left-----

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer:

Yes, exactly.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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-----and it seems to be a major issue. We are trying to do it in a region, and we are doing it in the Cork region now in a foundation we have set up where we are trying to link in with the diaspora. We have been appalling over the years in keeping in touch with our diaspora. There has not been a call to them to ask them if they want to get in touch. I am not talking about those who are first generation emigrants; I am talking about second, third and fourth generation, particularly in America where their heritage is very important to them in terms of where they came from. There is a big tie in that regard.

The figure for the number of people coming back is interesting. A significant number of young Irish people who emigrated are coming back. We do not appear to have a breakdown of those statistics-----

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer:

I agree.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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-----and it is a great pity because we are seeing only one side of the story.

I was in Australia last year as part of a parliamentary delegation where I met a large number of the young Irish who emigrated to that country. It is difficult to compare it because the weather is fantastic and they are earning a fortune. There is great opportunity there for those who have an education but many of the young people I met were construction industry workers. I am aware it is changing now and goods are getting very expensive, but there is opportunity.

That goes back to an earlier discussion we had about entrepreneurship. We talk about entrepreneurship here. We are appalling bad at it.

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer:

We are.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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The real reason for bringing these people back is to have an environment that will encourage them to use the skills and talents they have learned abroad and set up something here that will create jobs. If there is anything to be learned it is that we must be more specific about the "ask" as opposed to saying, "Come home and we will have happy days" because that will not happen. An article by the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, which I think came out of UCC, referred to the fact that we are paying such high tax rates. People are leaving because of the high tax rates. I am from a rural constituency and when one talks about somebody earning €100,000 they think it is a fortune, but that person is paying 56% or 58% tax on that and may be trying to buy a house in Dublin. In comparison to the opportunities one has in other parts of the world, it is a tough sell. We see that particularly in the case of young doctors. We are putting them through seven years of education and even though many of them are paying for their education, it is still hugely subsidised. That is not just a snapshot. There are many issues that are interconnected so we have to look at this differently.

I was interested in what Ms McAleer said about foreign languages. That goes back to our education and we need to start talking about different issues in terms of those at a very young age in national school. Ireland has changed significantly in the past 20 years in that we have far more foreign nationals in our country. My own five year old talks about the Polish girl in her class. When I asked her if she speaks Polish to her or if she is learning any Polish words, she said they do not do that at school. There is an opportunity here and we should be far more open to that. There is a significant call on teachers to look at things differently in terms of the way we deliver education. That can be done in many different areas.

The more I research the area of entrepreneurship, the more I am appalled because I used to think we were a great entrepreneurial country but we are actually shocking.

On the number of people leaving rural Ireland, as somebody who lives in rural Ireland I see it every day. It is frightening. It is a major issue and I do not know how we can address it because the communities are being destroyed and there is a great business opportunity there. That is something on which we must continue to work but the report is very welcome.

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer:

I thank Deputy Collins for her comments. In terms of returning migrants, the UCC report touched on issues such as a turn in the economy in Australia or some other countries to which people have emigrated or not renewing working holiday visas. We do not know. I did not want to labour the point about the changing demographics and our age structure but we need those people back in terms of our pension system when we look at the ratio of people of working age to pension age and the ageing population. We really need them back, apart from the fact that they are a great loss to the social fabric of Irish society.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the delegation from the National Youth Council of Ireland and thank them for the presentation, which was interesting and informative. I am surprised by some of the figures mentioned earlier, including the 47% of immigrants employed in full-time jobs, which would suggest there is a level of under-employment, and also the figure of 39.5% wishing to return. I thought that would be higher in terms of people wishing to come back to the country in the next three years. Is it that people do not believe they will be able to come back and therefore it was easier to say they do not want to come back, if that makes any sense?

I am also surprised by the figures on the countries of choice in that 24% of emigrants go to the United Kingdom, which is not a surprise, 17% to Australia and 6% to Canada but 16% go to the European Union 12 and 13% to the EU 15, which is around 30% of the EU 27 as it was at the time. That would suggest that the language skills are not as bad as I assumed they were because we always hear that Irish people have relatively low language skills. Was Ms McAleer surprised by that?

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer:

I was not surprised about the data. I had not considered the proportion. I thought the number going to the EU was quite high given that recession has affected the European states but I believe language is a big factor in where people emigrate to and it is not a coincidence that people are choosing North America, Australia and even New Zealand because of language. I am surprised people are still going to the UK. It is closer to home but it has also been hit by recession. It would be remiss of me not to say that in our research we encountered many who struggled to get jobs initially and had many teething problems. We have a recommendation in our report, which is not particularly relevant to this committee, on the need for pre-departure supports to ensure people are informed about the countries to which they are going and what to expect.

In response to Senator Kyne's question, foreign language is a key factor. I remember business graduates in one of the focus groups saying that there are jobs in Ireland that Irish people cannot do, even though they have first class honours degrees in business, because they do not have the language skills or the required fluency and employers therefore have to fly people over to do the job. It is a big issue.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I have a few comments to add and questions to ask. I welcome the National Youth Council of Ireland's report. I thank the witnesses for coming in and asking us to tackle the subject. As a result of today's and earlier discussions we will carry out another report and focus on this issue for a couple of months. We have a duty to do that on two fronts: we need to track emigrants and invest in a plan to bring them back when the time is right. I am conscious that no one is saying that a plan will be in place tomorrow, but we all believe that we can fix this country so we must put a plan in place. The 39% of people who are interested in coming back is a little bit scary because we thought the figure would be higher. Part of the problem is our pre-departure efforts - we are not supporting people enough. The issue was looked at a year or to ago but people are almost afraid to discuss it. Governments of all parties over the years have been afraid to discuss pre-departure support as if it implies a failure of the country. We must accept our position.

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer:

Yes.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Through no fault of our own and for whatever reason we are where we are. We need to accept that there will be a shortage of jobs for a couple of years. It should be okay to discuss emigration and support to emigrants. As I have mentioned previously at committees, we need to look to Europe. There are gaps in the market across Europe where jobs are available. There are even places in college - Germany, for example, has available spaces. We probably need to co-ordinate our approach a bit better, even in Europe. We need not be afraid to do that. There is nothing wrong with the Irish Government helping people find a suitable job that might further their career path in another country with the plan to bring them back. It might benefit the country if we facilitate people's career development because when they come back they might be in a better position to take up a position and therefore help the situation here.

We need to get over the nervousness around the issue. We might be able to do that through this committee by engaging with organisations such as the National Youth Council of Ireland. We need to grow up and accept the situation.

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer:

Yes.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Much can be done to help people who are going abroad and even when they get there. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade provides support when a problem arises when a person is abroad. I know that because I have engaged with it on such matters. However, we need to be more proactive.

I thank the witnesses for highlighting the issue in a sensible manner, which we will take on as a committee. Perhaps we could look at organising more experience abroad as part of the youth guarantee as long as that is done in a structured way.

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer:

Absolutely.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I look forward to working with the National Youth Council of Ireland on that and the many other related issues over the next couple of months. Do any of the witnesses have any concluding comments?

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer:

I agree with the Chairman and I am delighted to hear his comments. We profiled some agencies abroad that provide great information and the emigrants said they wished that information had been available in Ireland. The Chairman has perhaps struck an issue - if we do not support people before they leave, why would they want to return?

We would be delighted to make submissions to the committee on the facilitation of return migration. Advertising work placements, internships and work opportunities abroad was another recommendation of the emigrants and is in our report. The pre-departure supports are included in our pre-budget submission. We need to step up that area.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I will have a look at that. I will raise two other matters. In previous discussions James Doorley mentioned the part-time jobs opportunity initiative. That is a way in which people could get experience before they consider leaving. We need to return to the initiative that was used in the 1990s. It would be great if that could be rolled out by the National Youth Council of Ireland and for Social Justice Ireland to target that as well. Such an approach could help to keep people here.

Ms McAleer said she would submit her thoughts on the plan. She also mentioned that she has ideas for the list of stakeholders. I ask that she gives me suggestions of the people who should be involved as that would save us having to reinvent the wheel.

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer:

I would be delighted to do that.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Thank you.

Mr. James Doorley:

We recognise that there is no magic wand and we are in a crisis. As Deputy Collins said, we cannot simply invite everyone back and tell them that there are lots of jobs because we know that is not the reality. The Chairman has touched on the fact that we need to get beyond the emotional argument in the media or the general public on whether emigration is a lifestyle choice or a necessity. From our work with young people, the position in most cases is somewhere in between because there are push and pull factors. We must recognise that young people are leaving, get beyond that and, as the Chairman said, be grown up about the matter.

We still face a big challenge, but things can be done. First is an issue that Ms McAleer has emphasised many times, but the committee might be wondering why. We only have estimated figures - the data is not robust. Even the figures that we have provided are CSO estimates. The CSO has great data on a range of other subjects but there might be a resource issue in this area. We feel strongly that, if this area is considered to be important, it should be resourced more, and that can be achieved in a short space of time.

Second is the issue that Deputies Collins and Kyne mentioned. We will not be asking every young person to return to Ireland today, but we need to keep them warm, for wont of a better phrase, engage them and tell them there is a website where they can access information. As Ms McAleer said, many emigrants are keeping an eye on what is happening at home. Even in our study we found that some young people said they were in touch with their parents more when they are away than when they are at home. There are great social networks abroad, such as the GAA and other organisations, but if the State wants to keep people warm and make them feel they are still Irish citizens, leaving aside whether they should be allowed to vote, we might need to do something else to give them a sense that we would like them to come back at some stage and hopefully create the jobs so they can do so. Those are two things that can be done in an environment in which it is tough to ask people to come back and tell them that there are loads of jobs because we know that is not the case.

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer:

It makes economic sense and we need them back.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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To start with, we need to take a formal note of when people are leaving. That alone will make them feel the fact they are leaving is relevant.

On behalf of us all, I again thank the witnesses. Their input is appreciated. We will be in touch.