Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The committee secretariat has received a motion from Deputy Timmy Dooley concerning the Department of Finance briefing of members of this committee on macroeconomic forecasts, as will be the case for the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, in advance of the budget. I will now call on Deputy Dooley to speak on his motion and will then call on Deputy Kevin Humphreys to respond, as the latter has received a letter from the Minister for Finance.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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To clarify, I do not want to respond to Deputy Dooley's motion but simply to ask that the request I made to the Department of Finance, via e-mail, be put on record.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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As committee members will be aware, financial data was transmitted to other European parliaments in advance of the budget last year, most notably to the Bundestag. It was a matter of deep concern in this country that information related our budgetary process was to be reviewed and commented upon in a parliament other than our own.

As members of the committee are aware, the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council has since agreed a memorandum of understanding with the Government. As a result, it will receive significant information in advance of the budget to allow it to cast its judgment on the forecasts and on the impact of the information on the budget. For that reason, it is my view and the view of the Fianna Fáil Party that the information in question, including the forecast data and any explanatory presentations by the Minister or his officials, should be provided to Members of the Dáil. The most effective way of doing that in the first instance would be to provide the information to this committee. It can be provided on a confidential basis, in the same way that it is provided to the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council , if there are issues with regard to it. I am making the case for my party's proposal, as outlined in the motion, which is that all information contained in the memorandum of understanding with the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council should be provided to this committee. That is the essence of what is contained in the motion before the committee.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. I might ask Deputy Kevin Humphreys to make some remarks on his motion.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Sure. It is worth having a conversation on it here.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Very good.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Deputy Dooley's proposal complements the letter we received from the Minister, Deputy Noonan. When I read the memorandum of understanding, which outlines the information that is to be given to the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council on a confidential basis at least 12 days before the budget, I felt it was important that the same privilege be afforded to this committee and to the Dáil. We should have access to the same information so that we can respond in a proper manner at budget time, rather than getting up on the day as we have done up to now. I welcome the response given by the Minister of Finance, in which he said he is amenable to coming before the committee prior to the budget to share the information in question. Deputy Dooley has clarified aspects of the information we would like the Minister to share with the committee. On the basis that the Minister is amenable to coming before the committee, we should agree to invite him and his officials to come and share with us the information that the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council will receive approximately 12 days before the budget. That would allow Members of the Dáil to respond to the budget in an informed and proper manner.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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I support the proposal before the committee. I welcome the Minister's response. The devil is in the detail with these issues. I welcome the Minister's assurance that a version of the presentation will be made available to the committee. The committee will get all of this information anyway. Like the public and the Dáil, we get it on budget day. It is a question of when we get it and how we get it. That is the problem. This proposal opens up a debate about how we deal with our budgetary process and what is expected of Opposition parties when they make budget proposals. Representatives of various sectors of society will address this committee today. All of us are in the dark regarding the overall aggregate consolidation that is to be undertaken by this Government and will be submitted to the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council. The suggestion that the Department of Finance provides a service to Opposition parties is a myth. The independent costing of budget proposals does not exist. It is up to this committee to expose such myths. If there is a requirement for a budget document to be independently assessed by the Department of Finance, such a facility should be made available. It is not available at present. We have been trying to ask for it since June of this year. The answer we have received from the Department in recent weeks is "We are under serious pressure, and can you please prioritise the measures you would like to be costed?". They do not provide a facility of this nature. This motion goes to the core of the matter. The first thing Opposition parties, society and the public need to know is what the forecasts are based on. There is no point in providing those forecasts on the day of the budget when the policy is announced. We should have the technical forecasts and the aggregate consolidations now so that we can contribute to the policy debate in the weeks coming up to the budget.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the fact that Deputy Humphreys is supporting the motion. It makes sense that the committee be united.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Is it proposed that we write to the Minister and ask for this information?

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Can I explain the situation? Deputy Dooley does not ask for the Minister or his officials to come before the committee, so what I suggest is that we write to the Minister and ask him and his officials to come to the committee and I suggest that Deputy Dooley's motion, outlining the information we want to receive at that presentation, be put as an addendum to the letter. We need to tell them what we want to know, and Deputy Dooley has very much put together what we want to know. I add to his motion that the Minister and his officials should come before the committee.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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If one reads the motion, the nuts and bolts of it are that this committee calls on the Economic Management Council of the Government to direct the Department of Finance to provide the same forecast data and the same briefing to allow the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform adequate time to consider the information in advance of the budget. The word "briefing" in the motion incorporates ministerial or official briefing. If the briefing is to be delivered by the Minister, I am fine with that, but I did not want to be too specific or to make this a political or set-to piece with the Minister for Finance in advance of the budget.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Is Deputy Dooley happy to withdraw his motion if we request this information from the Minister?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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No. It is a non-political motion which is meant to set out, on behalf of the committee, our desire to get the same information that has been provided to the fiscal advisory council. I get the impression that the motion would be passed by general acclamation here. I do not think there is anyone here who disagrees with it.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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There is not.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I will press the motion, but I would be very surprised if any member of the committee would support the withholding from the committee of information for which it has been crying out. I would be amazed if that happened.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Nobody is talking about withholding information from the committee. It is simply that there is a slight difference between Deputy Dooley's motion and the suggestion put forward by Deputy Humphreys.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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If somebody proposes an amendment, I will consider it.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I would like to make an observation. A letter has come back from the Minister for Finance and I suggest that a letter should be sent from the committee, taking both suggestions into account. I suggest the committee should agree that is what should happen now.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Is that fair enough?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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No.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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We could end up splitting hairs on this issue and that is not desirable. What is desirable is that the technical, non-policy information that is provided to the fiscal advisory council be made available to this committee at the same time. It is important it is provided at the same time. I know the motion does not say "at the same time", but it does say that it should be provided to the committee in time to give it adequate time to consider it in advance of the budget.

At this point, we should not need to have the Minister for Finance or his officials here to explain it. What we need is the technical information. After examining that information, the committee can then decide whether it wants the Minister to attend the committee. The information is technical information that is prepared by the Department of Finance and all it does is assist us and society in trying to respond with alternative budget proposals in advance of the budget. I think the motion is fine, but we should not split hairs over the issue. We are a couple of weeks out from the budget and we should have this information now rather than ask the Minister for Finance or his officials to come in before us. We know they are under pressure in terms of producing the budget at an earlier stage this year. We should ask for the information provided in the e-mails they have sent to the fiscal advisory council with the technical data on it for macroeconomic forecasts.

I want to add one further point. In 2008, a very good initiative was taken by the late Brian Lenihan, who was Minister for Finance at that time. Unfortunately, that initiative was only taken in 2008. He invited Opposition spokespersons to the Department of Finance and opened up the books to them. This was done on a confidential basis and that confidentiality was respected. That is the type of initiative we would appreciate. Some issues, such as the macroeconomic forecasts, need to be and should be presented publicly, but there may be other issues the Department does not want to publicise in advance of the budget. We need to come to a better system, where people are better informed in advance of the budget, in order that we can have a better and more informed debate that is more in tune.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I think everybody agrees that the briefing presented to the fiscal advisory council should be made available to the committee. The letter is cleverly written and the last sentence states that the committee will be given a version of the presentation. We do not want to be given the Ladybird version of a document with a lot of information. We want to see the same briefing that is being made available to the fiscal advisory council and other parliaments in Europe.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Deputy Doherty. There is no point in splitting hairs. I proposed the motion and I hope the committee will support it. I do not think there is anything in it that is partisan or meant to hit at a policy. It is just a request to the Economic Management Council to direct the Department of Finance to provide this committee with information.

We must careful. I believe the Government will today announce a reform package that will deal with how the Houses of the Oireachtas works. If we are serious about reforming this Dáil and we are serious about providing Members with appropriate information so that they can participate in the budgetary process, then what we are asking for here is the most germane information that would required of us to participate in that process. I would be very surprised if any element of this committee sought to redact information that I believe we require as part of our constitutional duty as parliamentarians. That is why I took some time in preparing the motion. I did not want it to be seen as partisan or to be seen as the old style of hauling the Minister for Finance in here in advance of the budget to try to embarrass him and force him to outline budgetary details. I have chosen not to go down that route. I will disappointed and considerably surprised if there is an effort to affect or negate that process.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I think there is general consensus on this among committee members. Would it be possible to draft a letter to the Minister requesting what the committee is seeking? Such a letter can go back to the members and we can agree what will go forward. As a committee we have taken a cross-party consensus approach. Perhaps Deputy Dooley would consider the drafting of a letter. From what Deputy Doherty is saying, it is really about access to information. We have always worked collectively as a committee and I value that. A letter can be drafted by the clerk and provided to the committee. Subject to agreement, that letter can then be sent to the Minister.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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This committee has a role that is independent of the Executive. We should be able to take a decision today requesting the information by way of a resolution of this committee, as opposed to going back with the begging bowl asking the Minister to give us something. We are Members of Parliament. We are talking at the moment about reform and the independence of-----

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy O’Donnell is not talking about begging the Minister. He is suggesting that we write to the Minister requesting the information.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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With respect, the motion sets out the information that we require.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Dooley, you said you wanted to see cross-party consensus and wanted us to act like a committee. Deputy O’Donnell is proposing-----

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am looking for the support of the committee to back my motion.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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We have to ask where the politics are in this.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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There are none. I am asking for the committee to back this motion without division and that is a cross-party approach. It shows the independence of the committee.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy O’Donnell’s suggestion is also a cross-party approach.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Dooley and I know each other reasonably well. What I am proposing is very straightforward. I have been on committees over many years and this is normally the format. The Deputy is well aware of that. We are all in agreement.

We need to be clear about what precisely we are looking for. A letter can be drafted this morning effecting the agreement and it can go today. I think that is very reasonable.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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There is a timeframe here. I am serious about this. Can the committee take a decision that we request information by way of what is set out here? I accept that there is not much difference between us.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That is great.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Let us pass the motion by acclamation and forward it for the consideration of the Government and the Department of Finance so that the next day, rather than receiving another letter, we have a response to a decision that was taken. A letter by way of a motion weakens what we are looking for. It weakens the committee's resolution.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I endorse Deputy Dooley's comments and I hope for unanimity at the committee today. We are talking about political reform and making the Oireachtas more independent. Members of this committee echoed those sentiments at various summer schools this summer. I urge them to put that into action here today. The motion is not controversial. It is something for which Members from all sides have asked. I suggest that the only significant means of communication this committee has is to pass a motion. That is our way of communicating. That is how we do our business. We can write all the letters we like but they do not have the same impact as a motion before what is probably the most important finance committee. We are in fact looking for less information than some committees of the German Parliament have had. That is the reality. We are looking only for parity of esteem, on a confidential basis, with the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council. While the Minister's letter is welcome, it does come with the caveat that everybody around the table has acknowledged in terms of being a version of the presentation.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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As I said from the outset, I am happy to support this motion and I believe it should be passed unanimously but, as I interpret the debate so far, it is falling along Government-Opposition lines for various reasons, such as not letting someone get one over on someone else. At the end of the day the committee is unanimous in wanting the information, so the question is about the process. I agree with some of the previous speakers that there is a timeframe issue here which does not allow for writing a letter and going back and forth. The motion, however, may not be clear and specific about an adequate time. The Government may turn around and give us the information a week before the budget, which would be inadequate. That would not be acceptable.

I support the motion but I want to try to move this on. We will be sitting tomorrow. The committee is of the view that the briefing given to the independent advisory council should be given to the committee at the same time. Can we ask for clarification of the Minister's response in which he says he is open and amenable? Does that mean he will give us the same information and the same forecast and briefing at the same time as he gives it to the council? We should say that we expect a response by tomorrow. If we do not receive that response the motion could be deferred until tomorrow and if that response is not forthcoming or positive the committee should consider using its independence and calling for the information to be provided. In order to do this in a united way I suggest that, as we are sitting tomorrow, we ask for clarification. I have already said that I welcome the Minister's statement, although I have serious questions about what it means. We should get clarification about whether this means what is in Deputy Dooley's motion - in other words, that it will be the same information - and we should clarify that we want it at the same time, not a week or a couple of days before the budget. In that case, we could defer the motion for a day.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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There are witnesses waiting. If anyone else wants to comment, he or she may do so briefly.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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As the Deputy who raised this over the summer, I read the memorandum of understanding, which lays down specific guidelines on the timing of the provision of information to the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council. It also lays down how that information is given to the Fiscal Council. Deputy Doherty's proposal is sensible. I accept the goodwill of the Minister's letter, where he states that he is amenable to providing that information. Let us get the clarification and if there is a problem tomorrow we can deal with it tomorrow.

Does Deputy Harris wish to comment?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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No; I agree with Deputy Kevin Humphreys.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I move:

The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform:
noting that:
- the Department of Finance will provide economic forecasts for the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council in advance of the budget;
and further notes that:
- the Dáil should have equality of esteem with the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council; and
- as set out in Recommendation 1.1 of the 4th Report of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service, Report on Macroeconomic Policy and Effective Fiscal and Economic Governance, published in November 2010, thatthe Government publish annually, by way of laying a report before the Houses of the Oireachtas, its macroeconomic data and both short-term and long-term projections;
calls on:
- the economic management council of the Government to direct the Department of Finance to provide the same forecast data and the same briefing to allow the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform adequate time to consider the information in advance of the budget;
and resolves:
- that failure to provide this information for the democratically elected representatives of the people threatens to undermine our democracy.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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On a point of clarification, if the motion is moved, does this mean that Deputy Doherty's proposal falls?

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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We will deal with the motion first.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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On a point of clarification, people may agree with the substance of the motion. Can Deputy Dooley propose an amendment to the motion prior to it being taken?

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Not at this stage.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Do we have to take the motion in its entirety?

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Yes, unfortunately.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I think the general view is that the first two paragraphs are reasonable. I think the final paragraph may be unnecessary-----

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The problem is that we must deal with the motion; we cannot table an amendment to it now.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Can Deputy Dooley put forward a proposal?

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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An amendment would have to be notified two days in advance of the meeting.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It is regrettable that even though there is general consensus among the members about the subject, Deputy Dooley is pushing a proposal to a vote. Some of the language is unnecessary and takes from the overall motion.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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If I may clarify the matter, that line comes from a press release issued by Deputy Humphreys during the course of the summer. I structured the motion in that way in order that there would be unanimity on it. I did make an effort to try to include language in the motion that would satisfy everybody, including Government members.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It is up to the Deputy to put his motion, even though other proposals seeking clarification have been put to the committee. Other members can seek clarification-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It is important that the message go out that the committee is in favour of the general proposal. Deputy Dooley's pressing of the motion to a vote goes against the spirit of the work of the committee over many years.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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We can still write to the Minister to seek clarification on the back of what has been discussed previously. However, with regard to the actual motion, I have no choice but to put it to a vote.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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If I may comment, as a group we agree with the thrust of what Deputy Dooley proposes, but we would have liked clarity. What we put forward was reasonable and what Deputy Pearse Doherty put forward was reasonable. In that spirit, we abstained on the vote. I propose that this letter go to the Minister forthwith and we will await the response so that we can get down to the work of the committee in terms of perusing figures and doing our job in an open manner in the interests of everyone.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I agree with those sentiments. As Deputy Pearse Doherty stated beforehand, we should seek clarification on the letter from the Minister.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Clarification on points.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It is disappointing that we pushed it to more partisan-type politics, but if members want to do that, that is the way it happens.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the fact that the committee has passed the motion. As Deputy Dooley stated, his intention was not to engage in partisan politics. In fact, he used quotes that members of all parties had given over the summer on this matter.

The motion is about the relevance of Parliament and how relevant we are as against the Executive.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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We might move that discussion to another day, if Senator Byrne does not mind-----

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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That is an important factor here.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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-----because there are witnesses who have been waiting outside since ten o'clock. It is also important for this committee that we do not keep witnesses waiting too long. They have already been waiting for 40 minutes. We will suspend for a minute to allow the witnesses to come in.