Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I remind members and visitors that, as our microphones are sensitive, they should place their mobile telephones on aeroplane mode instead of silent mode.

I welcome the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Francis Fitzgerald, Mr. Jim Breslin, Secretary General, Ms Mary McLoughlin, principal officer, Mr. Dan Kelleher, principal officer, Ms Elizabeth Canavan, assistant secretary, Ms Marie Kennedy, Ms Moira O'Mara, director, and Mr. Peter Hanrahan, assistant principal officer, at the Department of Children and Youth Affairs.

Yesterday, the committee heard from the Ombudsman for Children, Ms Emily Logan, and had a good discussion with her on children in care. She also referred to the appointment of a manager at the Oberstown detention centre in north County Dublin, which we said we would raise this morning.

I invite the Minister to make her opening statement.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Before we start the meeting, I would like to make a brief personal statement. It is with regret that I learned this morning by chance that after the Order of Business in the Dáil later on I am to be removed as a member of this committee.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We will deal with that in private session.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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I want to deal with it now.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will chair the meeting.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Is the Chairman not allowing me to speak?

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will allow the Deputy to speak on the matter at the end of the meeting.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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At the end of the meeting I will no longer be a member of this committee.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I have no role, hand, act or part in this matter.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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The least I deserve, after having been a member of this committee for the past two years, is to be able to make a brief contribution as a member of this committee. I have only found out this morning that I am going to be taken off this committee.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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That is not a matter for the committee.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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All I was asking for was to make a brief contribution. It is disappointing that I am not getting the opportunity to do so.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, Deputy Naughten indicated that he wanted to make a brief statement.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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I will not be given the opportunity to speak on this matter in the House.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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He is a valued member of this committee, as he has demonstrated over a long time.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will chair the meeting, Deputy Ó Caoláin. This is the first I have heard of this matter.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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I only became aware of it when I saw the Order Paper earlier.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We do not make personal statements at committees. I am very happy to allow the Deputy to speak at the end of the meeting.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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No; I will no longer be a member of the committee at the end of this meeting. I would like to address the committee as a member of it.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy can still attend committee meetings.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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I will no longer be a member of the committee at the end of this meeting. I want to speak now.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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It is not the norm that members make personal statements at committee meetings.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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It is not the norm that members are discharged from a committee without any notice. I will not have the opportunity to speak on the floor of the Dáil on this matter because of Standing Orders.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will allow the Deputy to speak on the matter in private session.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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No; I want to speak in public session. It is a disgrace that I am being stopped from speaking here this morning.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Sorry the Deputy is not being stopped from speaking.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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It is a disgrace. I stood up for the rights of women in the House last week. As I called a vote last week, I am now to be expelled as a member of this committee. It is a disgrace that the Chairman is not allowing me to make my contribution.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Chair will allow the Deputy to speak at the end of the meeting. The Chair will not stop any member from speaking at the committee at any stage. We were in private session earlier. The Deputy could have raised the matter with the committee and the clerk then rather than in public session. It put us in an invidious position. The Chair will allow anyone to make a personal statement at the end of the meeting.

I invite the Minister to make her opening statement.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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To respond immediately to the question about Oberstown, I have received agreement from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for funding for a campus manager. The position will be advertised this month. Some legal advice had to be sought on the precise wording of the advertisement, as we will be introducing legislation during the year to provide for one campus. It is important that a campus manager be in place. The Commission for Public Service Appointments will be advertising this position shortly and, hopefully, the appointment can be made quickly after that.

I will bring members of the joint committee up to date on what progress has been made recently on the substantial responsibilities which fall within the remit of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. I propose to mention the child and family agency, early childhood care and education, Children First, the area-based response to child poverty and the Irish Youth Justice Service, as well as my Department's youth affairs role in the recent Presidency of the Council of the European Union. I will be glad to discuss other areas of my Department's work in the subsequent discussion.

I introduced the Child and Family Agency Bill in the Dáil yesterday. I acknowledge the assistance provided by the Office of Parliamentary Counsel in bringing this particular part of the process to a conclusion. The establishment of the child and family agency reflects the commitment in the programme for Government to fundamentally reform the delivery of child protection services by removing child welfare and protection from the Health Service Executive, HSE, and creating a dedicated child welfare and protection agency while reforming the model of service delivery and improving accountability to the Dáil. We are going further, however, than just child welfare and protection. The new agency will bring together a range of functions relating to children and families which will, in turn, bring a previously unknown level of focus to issues affecting these groups. The aim is to identify problems and provide supports at the earliest possible stage. The chief executive officer-designate and most of the agency senior management team are in place. The Government also approved the appointment of Ms Norah Gibbons as the first chairman of the board of the agency.

The work involved in ensuring a seamless transition to a new agency should not be underestimated.

It involves the disaggregation of budget and services for children and families from the HSE, negotiations with unions and overseeing a range of transitional issues relating to the transfer of undertakings. It is a very large public sector body with 4,000 staff and a budget of more than €570 million. It is a very ambitious programme. I pay tribute to the staff of the Department, particularly Jim Breslin, the Secretary General, and Gordon Jeyes for the huge amount of work that has been undertaken in this disaggregation of budget. Obviously, it is a huge task to separate out the budget and personnel. Deputies will be interested to learn that in carrying out the disaggregation, we have discovered that the budget lines relating to children were very diffuse and it was not always clear what money was spent on children. Disaggregation has enabled us to carry out an exercise clarifying that and we have received good co-operation from the HSE. There is due diligence in place so that at the end of the process, we can go back if there is any doubt or ambivalence or if people want to raise questions and have another look.

I have already briefed the Chair on the early childhood care and education programme and the extra provision of €11.5 million for the after-school child care scheme to support parents in employment. A total of 6,000 places will be available when the scheme is fully rolled out. The Department of Social Protection is responsible for determining eligibility. This funding is expected to increase to €14 million per annum when the scheme is fully rolled out. I pay tribute to some of the schools who are already doing this and some of the services already providing after-school care. Clearly, an after-school service is very helpful to parents and in the take up of employment, education and training.

I have gone into detail about the preschool quality agenda which has been underway for more than a year and which was thrown into stark relief by the "Prime Time Investigates" programme on standards in preschools. The publication on-line of preschool inspection reports has commenced. All new inspection reports undertaken from 1 July will be published when they are ready. They take a number of weeks, the provider is given a chance to give feedback and the reports are published as soon as new reports are ready. In the meantime, the 2,000 older inspection reports are being published on-line. I emphasise that these are public documents and are available under the freedom of information legislation. It is absolutely right that they are available on-line and that parents can access them. Any good provider will make them available to parents when they ask and I would encourage parents and providers to have a discussion about their inspections and for providers to tell parents if they have made changes that are not reflected. Given recent publicity, any parent will want to know the status of inspections for their preschool service. In September, we will introduce registration for new services. It will no longer be enough to notify; one must be registered. The new national quality standards will be launched in September, will become part of the inspection regime and will replace the current guidance. We will, therefore, have regulations and the new national quality standards. Again, I pay tribute to my staff, including Ms Mary McLoughlin, who is here, and the staff of the HSE who have been working on these new quality standards for child care services. We need different standards, regardless of whether the care is part time, sessional or full time or provided by a childminder. A huge amount of work has been done and we will ensure that inspections from some point in September will replace the guidance currently available. The inspections will be more comprehensive and more about the quality of care and the inspectors will be then in a position to continue their inspections but to have far more regard to these new national quality standards than to the previous guidance.

I have briefed the committee on Children First on a number of occasions. There are very complex legal issues involved. I thank the Attorney General who has been very involved with the Department and its legal advisers in doing a huge amount of work in this regard. Much progress has been made and we are very close to finalising the heads of Bill. When one is introducing criminal sanctions for people not reporting, many issues arise about what it is intended to report and the responsibilities of organisations. Again, I thank the committee for the work done by the Chair but it has meant there is a huge amount of legal work to be done in teasing out the precise responsibilities of mandated professionals and organisations. Good progress has been made and a huge amount of work has been done. This was promised by previous Governments many years ago. I have brought it as the heads of a Bill to the committee on one occasion. We will bring the second heads of Bill to Government as soon as possible. There will be no delay but we are working on complex issues.

In respect of the Irish Youth Justice Service, I know the committee had an opportunity yesterday to discuss with the Ombudsman for Children the position relating to Oberstown. We are having discussions with both trade unions and meetings were held last week. There was a belief or hope that we would be able to transfer some of the beds currently being used by the girls' section to the boys' section. That has not proved possible for a variety of reasons. We are now pursuing a twin-track approach of recruiting permanent staff. In the meantime, we will see if we can use agency staff to increase the bed space. If members wish to ask further questions about that, I would be very happy to answer them. The capital project is going ahead. I have been in touch with the OPW and the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes. Obviously, that tender is being completed. Tenders are always sensitive and I do not wish to comment further except to say that the project is underway and the beds will be available next year.

I have not had the opportunity up to now to talk about my work during our Presidency. I will bring the committee up to date with the work I did as a Minister in the Council of Youth Ministers. My priorities related to the contribution of quality youth work to young people's development, well-being and social inclusion and the potential contribution of youth work to youth employment and the Europe 2020 jobs and growth agenda. This is particularly important at present given that we have the youth guarantee and funding of €8 billion is becoming available within the EU over the next two years. Ireland can draw down from that. It is extremely important that youth work services benefit from that and that they are in a position to put forward proposals aimed at supporting the young people with whom they are in contact - often the most marginalised - to make sure they can access education, training or work. It is important that the skills young people acquire through youth work be recognised in the work programmes which will get funding under the youth guarantee. Some of the initiatives that arose as a result of our work during the Presidency include a new EU working group on quality youth work. There is a better relationship between the Council of Youth Ministers and other Council of Minister configurations. It is very important to mainstream youth work into the work of other Ministers and Commissioners. We need to recognise that youth work can make a contribution to the 2020 growth and jobs agenda. It has a very legitimate place in supporting young people to get back into work.

We want more co-ordination. I hosted an EU expert round table in June bringing together the youth sector, employers and business leaders, academics, the European Youth Forum and representatives of member states to explore the contribution of youth work to young people's employability. We launched what is called the Dublin Declaration, which outlined the principles about which I have been speaking here. That was very important. The main point that young people and representatives of youth work organisations made at that meeting was that they had not had the opportunity to meet with people in quite the same way. That mix of people from business, the academic world and youth work organisations came together to discuss how they can work together. For example, the National Youth Council of Ireland and representatives of Accenture attended; we brought together business and youth work organisations. The Dublin Chamber of Commerce recently expressed interest in working with youth organisations. That type of collaboration could be very important in terms of job creation for young people and making sure the work of our youth services is recognised and valued by employers.

Much of the work that young people are exposed to during youth work is about skills of confidence, building self-esteem and preparing to re-enter the jobs market. We also held a conference and consulted with 11,000 people across the EU to ensure the voice of young people was part of the conferences we held during our Presidency. Greece and Lithuania will continue that work with the theme of social inclusion and trying to further some of the conclusions we reached during our work.

I thank the Chairman for his continuing co-operation and interest in my Department's area and programme of work. There is much work to do during the lifetime of this Government and that is continuing. I look forward to continuing to work towards the very challenging goals for children and youth affairs which have been set out in the programme for Government.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I was disappointed that Second Stage of the Child and Family Agency Bill concluded yesterday evening. It was not what had been intended in the Dáil schedule. Other speakers had expected to be able to continue to make Second Stage statements on the resumption. It is regrettable and most unfortunate that because of the collapse of an earlier piece of legislation, bringing forward the Second Stage of the Child and Family Agency Bill to begin long before its scheduled time, other Deputies were unprepared to take up the opportunities yesterday. Due to other responsibilities, I was not able to attend to hear the Minister's closing remarks over a very truncated opportunity of approximately three minutes at the conclusion just before 7.30 p.m. It is an unfortunate start to the process of the legislation. My remarks stand. I welcome the Bill and will fully support its safe passage through the Houses. I hope the Minister would note those comments. It is not indicative of any lack of interest in the part of Members that it concluded as it did.

In a response to a parliamentary question of mine on 4 July, the Minister said, "Only 16 of the certified 24 male bed spaces in Trinity House School are currently available for use due to staffing issues." This is a major issue and has been repeatedly highlighted in successive court hearings by well-respected judges. It is an indictment of the political system that we do not use the full potential of what is already in situ. Why is one third of the capacity of Trinity House school unused? I would like to know the exact details of the so-called staffing issues. Let us understand it, because it is vexatious.

The annual report of Ombudsman for Children painted a very negative picture of the situation in Oberstown. The Minister must be aware that the staff working there also paint a very negative picture. The situation is far from ideal. Is there any measure of the impact of all this on the children detained in Oberstown and Trinity House School? Yesterday the Ombudsman for Children suggested there was a possible need for the upskilling of staff in certain areas. I was not able to attend, being in the Chamber with the Minister. That is a very serious reflection on the situation. If staff at Oberstown are not properly trained for their responsibilities, there is a major problem that needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency. I do not want to come back in the autumn and have to ask about this. It must be acted on immediately because of all that is involved. What are the Minister's plans to ensure upskilling of staff, if it is a requirement as identified? What is happening regarding that and when will it take place?

Will the Minister comment on the level of sick leave? This is a serious matter and is symptomatic of something not being right in Oberstown. Are there increasing assaults of staff resulting in sick leave and stress-related leave? That is what I am being told. This situation poses a major question. Have we adequate staffing? Are the skills bases in place? Why do we have an inordinate level of sick leave, due in the main to stress and assaults? It is a very serious problem. When will the Minister publish the McElfatrick report? Can the members of this committee, spokespersons on children, have access to it? Why have we not got it already and will the Minister ensure we do? It is critically important. Can the Minister give assurances that the capital project at Oberstown will be delivered on time and in budget?

I welcome the fact that I got my question on violence against children in the home to the Minister because every effort was made to prevent its being put to her, as I explained to her some time ago. I would like the system to be a bit more reflective of the fact that children's needs, which may cross a number of portfolios, are nonetheless of concern to the Minister - I respect her for that - and to me as a spokesperson on health and children. There is little information on the measures being taken to address the fact that there is a 55% increase in violence against children in homes where there is violence against another adult present. Women's Aid has highlighted this and it must be properly addressed. Is there any analysis of the root causes of this? What is the HSE's assessment of this situation and what measures is it taking to address it?

On the comprehensive preschool equality agenda, can the Minister clarify the position on the future need for preschool and crèche services to meet the national quality standards as outlined in Síolta, the National Quality Framework for Early Childhood Education? What are the practical implications for preschools and crèches in that regard? Will the Minister ensure all preschools are inspected? Will such facilities have a right of appeal in all circumstances?

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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As always, the Minister is very welcome to the committee. I thank her for outlining all that is happening and for her responses to questions. I am disappointed that the Children First Bill is still delayed. I realise the legal difficulties. This committee had very good hearings on the issue over a year ago so all committee members are aware. In the absence of Children First, I fear people do not realise the responsibility. Reporting is the right thing to do, and it is unfortunate that we must legislate for people to do the right thing, but we have seen too many cases where people have not reported. In the absence of that legislation, is there something we can do as an immediate measure? Perhaps I might give that more consideration. We must send a clear message to anybody employed by the State or in receipt of funding from the State that it will be unacceptable and there will be sanctions if they do not appropriately report any concerns about a child's welfare or protection.

I look forward to welcoming the national child care quality standards, on which the Minister is working. Will this cover childminders, particularly registered childminders? I am not talking about an informal arrangement under which I mind my nephews for two hours.

Rather, I am referring to childminders who are employed. What of au pairs? Their situation seems to have fallen between the gaps. It is meant to be an informal cultural exchange. When used in that way, it is perfect. The Migrant Rights Centre Ireland has done an excellent report on this subject. Some au pairs are being used as unsupervised and unvetted childminders in precarious situations. We should be cognisant of this.

As an Independent and if what I have heard is true, I was surprised and disappointed to learn that my colleague, Deputy Naughten-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We will not go into that.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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He is not present.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Neither the clerk nor I has received notification to that effect.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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It is disappointing that certain questions about children who have gone missing from State care, the Roscommon child care cases and funding for front-line youth services will not be asked today.

I wish to ask about alcohol-related harm. I welcome the Minister's comprehensive answers. It shows her seriousness about these issues. Another Oireachtas committee produced a report on alcohol that should have been produced by this committee. Alcohol-related harm is a health issue. It is also an issue affecting children, as the Minister has shown. It directly and indirectly affects them. Deputy Ó Caoláin raised the issue of domestic violence. We know there is a relationship between the two issues in certain cases. We must return to the issue of alcohol-related harm.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Just to point out, we published a report on alcohol and substance misuse.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Yes, but the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications has published a report on alcohol in sponsorship. This committee should deal with all alcohol-related issues. It is a health issue, first and foremost. The Minister's answer clearly highlights how children are affected.

I welcome the publication of the Child and Family Agency Bill 2013. I have not had an opportunity to scrutinise that technical Bill yet. I still cannot picture the agency and I do not know what disciplines or referral pathways will be in place. The Minister's reply refers to piloting different systems, but I am not reassured that the new body will not become a crisis agency. I would appreciate an outline of the agency rather than words like "accountability". I just want to understand the model and the structure. Publishing this information would assure many of us who are trying to find out what the agency will be.

I welcome the comprehensive reply that we received concerning Oberstown, but when will a single management structure be in situ? This is the crux of the issue. I echo Deputy Ó Caoláin's comments. I will not repeat them, as he made them eloquently.

Mary Mitchell O'Connor (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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To the Minister, well done for doing so much work in two years. She has put the child and family agency together. Setting up a new child welfare structure is difficult.

I spoke in the Dáil Chamber yesterday. I was lucky because it was almost empty. Deputy Conway was present. My interest is in the preschool quality agenda. Television programmes have revealed how some children have been badly treated. However, there are thousands of good crèches and child care facilities. I visited a number of them in my former profession. The children there were engaged, not strapped to chairs. I want to reassure parents that there is good quality child care. I welcome the fact that the reports will be published online. If parents have concerns after checking them, they can approach the facilities' owners.

I was interested in the Minister's remarks about an inspectorate of crèches. Will they be qualified and will they inspect the same elements across facilities? An inspectorate worked when it was introduced into the primary school system. It made teachers work together on school development plans. This is probably what is required in the case of crèches. I will be optimistic and thank the Minister for her work.

Ciara Conway (Waterford, Labour)
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To follow Deputy Mitchell O'Connor's references to early childhood, we were all horrified by the documentary. I have a concern about how the situation will improve for children. I have mentioned it to the Minister previously. People do not realise the tasks facing child care staff everyday. They have little if any planning time. All of their time is contact time with the children. If there is to be quality, there must be space to develop a plan for the centre, its children and its community, as Deputy Mitchell O'Connor mentioned. Unfortunately, there is no down time for staff at some private centres in particular to plan and to look after records adequately. Services that receive funding from the State try to provide that space, but more is necessary. We do not need nice buildings and equipment - people who have experience of young children know that they often find the greatest joy in the empty boxes, not the toys - but a quality relationship between the carer and the child.

The new agency's establishment cannot be underestimated. It is a positive step forward for many families. It is the type of body that people in the sector have been discussing during their coffee breaks for years but did not believe would come about. I commend the Minister, her staff and the new officials and management team. I wish them well. A time of change is a difficult period for staff and service users, but I am confident there will be a good outcome.

How will we focus on ensuring quality? This relates to the themes raised by various members who have discussed the new agency and early childhood studies. How do we know there will be quality and depth to the service? We should not focus on the number of social workers alone, as people often do. There can be thousands of workers, but poor quality relationships and practices can do damage. This is our opportunity to ensure good quality.

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister and her team and I thank her for her contribution. I welcome the Child and Family Agency Bill. I am delighted to have had an opportunity to contribute on it on Second Stage yesterday. I share the concerns of my colleague, Deputy Ó Caoláin, as Second Stage clashed with the committee's meeting with the Ombudsman for Children, Ms Emily Logan. I was covering for Deputy Ó Caoláin and almost missed my speaking slot. The change in times made it difficult for people to address the Bill.

I submitted a number of questions, including on the Women's Aid annual report. I note that we do not have adequate hostel spaces. The Council of Europe recommended at least one refuge place per 10,000 population. What are we doing to address this issue?

The Minister referenced the European protection order. As of May, the Government had yet to sign the Council of Europe Convention on Preventing and Combating Violence against Women and Domestic Violence.

Has the Government ratified the convention?

Question No. 12 is on the recently published Ombudsman's report on services for children at risk in the North Lee area of Cork city. I thank the Minister for her response but remain concerned. The Ombudsman's report found many instances in which it took months to respond properly even though some cases were priority 1 or high-risk cases, which typically require an immediate response. The report clearly highlighted a staffing issue in the North Lee area, which accounted for many of difficulties facing the area. Does the Minister intend to improve resources and supply additional staff?

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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May I comment on question No. 15? The Minister spoke about the issue.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I too welcome the new agency. Like Deputy Ó Caoláin I had intended to speak on the matter on Second Stage. Unfortunately, I had to leave the meeting to attend another one. When I returned to my office I discovered that it had finished, which was disappointing.

I wish to raise some ongoing problems with the Minister. No parent sends his or her child to a preschool or childminder without knowing the provider. When people avail of such care they are genuinely interested in their children's welfare and want to make sure that the children are well minded. I have a growing concern about the large number of unregulated childminders who have set up a small group and mind three or four children in their homes. Why are they not properly regulated? They should be.

Parents have told me that they put their child into a small preschool or playschool in a house because cost is a factor. Such establishments are a lot cheaper than paying for a normal playschool. Parents must pay between €110 and €120 per week if their child attends a larger playschool five mornings per week up to 12 noon. If they send their child to a childminder who provides care in their home it will cost substantially less, perhaps €50 or less per week. I am not talking about the quality of service because people who have a small group of children in their homes are quite capable. They are well able to wipe snotty noses, look after children and cuddle them when they have an accident, but such childminders are not properly regulated. The Department should identify them and ensure they are properly regulated.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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We did.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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Private agencies try their best, employ staff and have a lot of overheads, but there is a gap in the market that needs to be filled. People who mind children in their homes should be regulated and brought into line with other child care establishments. Its not about charging more. I just want them to be properly regulated.

Many grandparents are minding children because one or both parents must go out to work. Grandparents across the State are being put under great pressure to mind their grandchildren. I have seen grandparents in their late 60s and early 70s pushing buggies. They do so because they want to alleviate the financial pressure on their children or grandchildren. Those grandparents have reached a time of life when they should be sitting back and enjoying their golden years. There is an onus on us and the State to provide child care services at a reasonable cost that are properly regulated. I hope the Minister has got the message.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I understand. I thank the Deputies and Senator for their comments and questions. Deputy Ó Caoláin and Senator van Turnhout asked about Oberstown. When I came into office Oberstown was quite under-utilised but had a lot of staff and the beds were not used fully. As the members will know, many children are now diverted from detention to community placement and supervision. Crime is also down among that age group, which is welcome.

Last year there was no problem getting a bed at Oberstown for a 16 year old. We took the decision to move 16 year olds and I stand by that decision because it was the right thing to do. No 16 year old has been in St. Pat's for the past year, which is right, and this is due to the decision taken by me and the Government. We have the opposite problem now at Oberstown because there has been a dramatic increase in referrals in the past three months. For a range of reasons the courts have sought more places than at any time in previous years when 16 year olds were in St. Patrick's or when they moved initially to Oberstown. With regard to staffing, Oberstown has 90 care staff, 35 night care staff, 17 management and 45 other staff, and the total is 187.

I will also outline what I, the staff at Oberstown, the IYJS and the extremely good board are doing. My appointment of the board members was based on their expertise and what they could bring to the management of Oberstown. The board is chaired by Mr. Joe Horan. Many of the board members have expertise in youth justice, which is precisely the reason I appointed them. There has been no shortage of professional input, and great efforts have been made to deal with many issues. Oberstown is an historic institution which had, surprisingly, three separate units. I wonder why it was not under a single management. No other government put single management in place but the Government is doing so now. No other government established a roster system that meant that staff could move between three units. They should have had mobility because they had to deal with young people in detention, mostly young boys and occasionally young girls. Clearly, staff should have been able to move between units, but it took us two years to reach agreement on movement. We went to the Labour Relations Commission and got changes made, and a roster has been in operation since February.

Following an increase in referrals, we have examined ways to create extra beds. Negotiations took place for a number of weeks on the possibility of changing part of the area designated for young girls to allow boys to use the space. However, it did not prove practical or desirable in the long run. Members are right in stating we are still in a situation in which we must make extra beds available. It appears the only way forward is to hire more staff, in the first place, on an interim basis. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has approved quite a lot of extra staff for next year. I welcome the agreement to have the extra staff because all of the 16 and 17 year olds will be on-site. However, we still have not been able to make the extra beds available. I shall ask my Secretary General to comment on the initiative and efforts that are under way. We held meetings with the two unions involved, the most recent of which took place last week, to try to ensure that beds would become available.

Mr. Jim Breslin:

A cross-campus roster has been talked about, but it is not always obvious what that means from a practical point of view. For example, in our eight-bed unit for girls there are often only two girls, as is the case currently. Before we had the cross-campus roster, the staff assigned to the girls' unit would stay assigned to it regardless of the number of children in the unit. Therefore, a unit would be fully staffed even with only one or two girls in residence. Now we have the ability to deploy staff on a daily basis. The staffing of individual units is set according to the need and number of children and young people present. The initiative has opened up operational efficiencies and allowed us to try to be more efficient.

There are further operational efficiencies to be exploited in that roster. We put it in place in February. That does not mean it is ideal. We are working with staff to try to identify every area we can address within that and iron out any difficulties. We have had a very good opportunity from 1 July, as the Haddington Road agreement provides for additional hours for every public servant. It brings all staff on the campus up to 39 hours per week. We have additional hours within which to staff that roster and that will give us further scope.

The other element the Minister mentioned is that we have staff who are off the payroll. They may be on long-term sick leave, as sick leave is an issue in Oberstown, or they may have taken a career break, etc. Currently, we are trying to come up with some solutions which would bring additional staff on to the campus to fill those positions. We hope to do that in the short term as well as look at some temporary solutions which would bring the staffing numbers up.

All of that is designed to get the Trinity House school up to full operational capacity - that is, eight beds. Even when we do that, one of the issues with a detention school is that if one provides a number of beds, the beds fill up. Even with eight beds, it is important that every other alterative to the detention of a child is looked at. Just because there is a bed there it does not mean it should be filled. Even when we get to eight, which will provide additional capacity, it might not provide all the capacity in the world. If we were to keep increasing the capacity, the fear is that we would pull more children into the campus. We have to get the balance right and make sure all the staff and the resources on the campus are efficiently deployed. We also have to make sure there are solutions in place which mean we can divert children from having to be detained in the first place. We have to work on both of those issues and not lose sight of them.

On the question of sick leave, it was, and is, a problem on the campus. It is not specifically related to the arrival of the 16 year olds and I would not like it to be seen as that. Sixteen year olds were detained in Oberstown before the Minister made the change, and that was as a result of children being sent in at 15 years of age and remaining there until 16 or 17 years of age if the period of detention was sufficiently long. I would not ascribe the sick leave issues on the campus to the 16 year olds. That would be pointing the finger in the wrong direction. We are seeking to address and reduce sick leave.

Similarly, in regard to training, when I visited Oberstown first, I was heartened by the extent of the qualifications of the staff there. The reason we want to move children and young people out of St. Patrick's is that we have care staff in Oberstown who are qualified and trained to look after children and young people. They have very good skills. We are looking at how we can further address that and further develop policies, procedures and training on an ongoing basis to try to support and help staff.

The board of management, which the Minister mentioned, has been working closely with staff to try to build a vision for Oberstown. It is looking at the major endorsement it has got from the Government by way of a €50 million capital approval and trying to construct something of which we can be proud in the offering for children and young people who must be detained. The establishment of the assessment, consultation and therapy service, ACTS, team to deal with children's mental health issues on the campus is further evidence of that. The type of work involved is to try to build a culture in Oberstown which is very much focused on children and young people. For example, last year, there was an intensive set of four workshops for the board of management and all of the staff on the campus to try to work on a set of actions that would try to move us towards that vision. That is continuing to receive attention.

The campus manager is a key post in any service. The leader sets the tone and to have one unified leader on the campus allows us to start to further break down the barriers between the three schools. The recruitment and calibre of that person will be very important in trying to build the culture we are trying to build.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Is the appointment process in train?

Mr. Jim Breslin:

The appointment process is in train and the Public Appointments Service will advertise that post. It normally advertises on a Friday. The most likely date for that will be next week but it will certainly be advertised by the end of July.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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We have approval, in principle, for 67 new staff next year. An assumption was made by the board and everybody involved in the management of Oberstown that the new roster would provide the flexibility to open and use all of the beds there. There is much disappointment that it has not proved possible to do that. Sometimes there are historic practices in place in units which are very difficult to change.

The work in Oberstown is demanding on staff, but staff must also be flexible and, as the Secretary General said, willing to put children at the centre and make whatever efforts they can. The appointment of a line manager should greatly facilitate this because, effectively, three different organisations are coming together on the one campus which did not work together before. It might look easy from the outside to make these changes and to get these flexibilities in the system, but it has not proved that easy. A huge industrial relations effort was made and a considerable amount of time was spent by staff from the Irish Youth Justice Service and on the board, and those working on the campus, to arrive at what I agree with the Deputy is an unsatisfactory situation - that is, that there are beds which are not open. We have asked the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to recruit extra people. I regret that I have had to do that. It should have been possible to open those beds with roster changes, but it was not. Every effort has been made.

Ten staff have been on sick leave for more than a year. Clearly, there will be assault situations. When operating a detention system, one is dealing with young people who have very complex issues. We do everything to give support to the staff. There is continuous professional training available and there have been staff days. I have met the staff and I was very impressed with their commitment and the efforts they want to make to do the right thing by the young people there. I hope this situation can be brought to a satisfactory conclusion as quickly as possible. It is not for the want of effort by my Department, the IYJS, the board of management and everybody else.

I ask that all involved and all staff show the kind of flexibility we need because we are committing €50 million to that campus. We want to commit €50 million to a campus that works effectively for children and ensures the beds are available. I hope that has brought some clarity to the situation for the Deputies and Senator who asked questions in that regard.

The Child and Family Agency Bill will be referred to the select committee following Second Stage, which began in the Dáil yesterday. As Deputy Ó Caoláin said, it started much earlier than we had expected. I expected only spokespersons to speak yesterday.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Unfortunately, the committee did not have a say in when the Bill would be taken. We had scheduled a meeting yesterday and many of us would have liked to be in the Dáil.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I was very conscious of that. It was not due to start until later, but the other Bill finished two hours earlier.

The McElfatrick report is clearly a question of due process. That has just gone to the board. It involves staff, so there is a due process issue. I will take advice from the board on whether it should be made available for publication. There may be confidential material in it in regard to staffing issues.

The board has brought in an outside expert to examine the roster and see what improvements can be made.

In regard to Women's Aid, clearly the statistics are very disturbing. In reply to Deputies McLellan and Ó Caoláin, other Deputies and Senator van Turnhout, who raised this issue, the more organised the service in response to the increasing number of child abuse, child protection and child welfare referrals, the better the service we can give those very vulnerable children whose parents - very often the mother - are in a refuge or working with Women's Aid. It is important for us, the staff in the new child and family agency and the management team there to be very cognisant of the kind of research coming through in regard to those statistics and to look at what supports are available to the children in the local area where there is a refuge.

Other children will be in their own homes and it is a question of reaching out to those families.

I will ask Ms McLoughlin to speak about Síolta, Aistear and preschool education.

Ms Mary McLoughlin:

The Síolta and Aistear programmes have been introduced in preschool education, a sector that has grown very fast. This is unlike the primary school sector, in which all teachers have the same training and basic knowledge. One of the challenges in introducing the Síolta and Aistear programmes in preschool education is how to implement them. The Department of Education and Skills has responsibility for developing the Síolta programme and has run a field test with about 130 services. What it has identified is that giving staff talks on how to implement the programme is not the way to proceed. The Department identified Síolta mentors who worked very closely with the services. That is a model we have seen in other countries and it has been particularly successful in Northern Ireland. One of the strategies the Minister has identified to make Síolta and Aistear part of the way the staff work is to build a support network and work directly with services and specifically service by service. The Department of Education and Skills is looking at bringing Síolta and Aistear together because there is an issue in that service providers see them as separate and different programmes from which they can choose one or the other, whereas in fact they need to be brought together. There is a great deal of work going on in trying to develop it. The voluntary organisations and the county child care committees work very closely with services, but what we need to do is to provide more specific support, service by service, rather than the general support that has been provided to date.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Senator van Turnhout asked about the regulation of childminders and whether the new standards will continue to apply to registered childminders. The regulations apply to registered children and a particular section of the regulations will apply to childminders. The Senator also raised the issue of au pairs. I met representatives from the Migrant Rights association and I discussed their issues of concern. The issues seem to focus on employment and exploitation and as such would come under the remit of the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton. I suggested that they link to the child care committees, as I believe they would offer support for au pairs, and if difficulties arise the child care committees would be in a position to support them or make some recommendations about the support they could get. They said anecdotally that some parents overuse au pairs in childminding, the very point that Senator van Turnhout made. They are concerned about that. It highlights the need for a national campaign for young women from around the world who take up these positions so that they can know precisely what they are getting into, get as much information in advance as possible, deal with registered companies and use whatever safeguards are required. If they find themselves in an unsatisfactory situation, they need to take action and go back to the agency. Very often, it is an informal arrangement and the au pair ends up feeling he or she is being exploited.

Senator van Turnhout, in raising the issue of alcohol, made her point extremely well. I have detailed statistics. We have heard about other committee reports and other aspects of the debate on alcohol and sponsorship. I have been very keen to put on record the significant issues we have in Ireland with regard to young people and the need for those taking decisions to be very cognisant of that. A recent study, for example, shows that Irish students in the 15 and 16 age cohort report drinking a third more on their latest day drinking than the European average. That is the reality. In addition, there is a trend for Irish girls to drink as much as boys and sometimes more. Among the Irish students surveyed, in the 30 days prior to the survey, half - 52% - of the boys had drunk alcohol, 40% had had five or more drinks on a single occasion and 23% had had one or more episodes of drunkenness. If one looks at anti-social and public order offences by children and young people, one will find alcohol is a factor in 28.9% of these. There are major issues with regard to alcohol, and this needs to be debated on another day.

Senator van Turnhout said she could not imagine the agency. It will take time for people to think about the role of the Child and Family Agency as a separate entity. If I were to ask who was running child and family services, members might have a problem answering that question. We want to address that issue by putting a dedicated focus on child and family services. Gordon Jeyes is working on establishing a national assessment and referral service with referral pathways to child welfare and child protection services. That will deal with the issues outlined by the Senator. When the board is in place, the board members will work on a corporate plan that will address the points she makes.

I thank Deputy Mitchell O'Connor for her comments. The Deputy asked about standardisation of inspections, and obviously the HSE has been moving towards a standardised process throughout the country. Previously, this has been dealt with locally and on a regional basis rather than nationally. To deal with issues nationally, one needs national standards, national inspections and the same format in all of the reports. All of these issues are being addressed. The introduction of the standards and the new national qualifications later in the year will help that as well. There will be training for inspectors. At present, it is public health nurses and environmental health officers who conduct inspections. I would like to see people with child care qualifications being part of the inspectorate. We have many people doing third level degrees in child care and we have a cadre of people who are very interested in developing their skills in the child care area but do not have much opportunity, a matter that can be looked at later. The regulations were introduced in 1996, but under section 5, the welfare and care of children clearly must be part of any current inspection. This does not have to wait until the new standards are implemented. The plan is that when the new standards are finalised in September they will replace the current guidelines and inspectors will then inspect with regard to the new standards.

Deputy Conway raised the issue of planning. I agree with the Deputy that all providers should allow time for planning. It is part of the regulations. The child care committees and voluntary organisations have been supporting services to develop better planning and it is a very important part of their work.

It is my intention to introduce a mentoring programme and I am in discussions about the budgetary issues arising from its introduction. I would like to see a cadre of mentors going to child care services around the country to support the development of the staff and of the services they provide. I would hope to get support for the programme.

Deputy Byrne asked about the regulation of childminders. A childminder must be registered and subject to the regulations when she or he minds three or more children, or children are minded in a preschool setting. If people know about such services that are not registered they should be reported to the HSE or to the child care committees. Whether a childminder who looks after fewer than three children in an informal setting should be subject to the same regulations as childminders in the preschool setting is an open question. In some countries they are regulated, but in others they are not. The approach in Ireland is that it is the decision of the parent and he or she checks out the childminder. I would encourage a procedure whereby people register as childminders. Childminders can register but there has been extremely poor take-up of that option in spite of the tax provision and the other supports that have been given. Childminders themselves would have more support and greater access to training and the supports of the child care services. It has not been the tradition in Ireland to register. Even when the childminders' association, Childminding Ireland, asked people to register, only 1,250 out of a probable 50,000 childminders did so. Few of the childminders in Ireland register as such because of the informality of the arrangement between the childminder and parents.

Parents are increasingly asking who is minding their child and want to know about vetting and standards so I think we will see a move towards parents expecting childminders to be registered with child care committees.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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Did Mr. Breslin say that when St. Patrick’s Institution closes some of the clients will be going out to Oberstown? Has he any idea how many there will be?

Mr. Jim Breslin:

Last year we took 16 year olds, and on average at the moment we have 17 of them. There were only ten 16 year olds in St. Patrick’s. The number has risen significantly since we were given responsibility for it. There are between 25 and 30 seventeen year olds. The first phase of the €50 million development will deliver some new units that will be able to take the 17 year olds.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister, Mr. Breslin and Ms McLoughlin for their replies and for attending here again this morning. I am pleased to hear some of what they have said. I can appreciate their reticence in respect of additional staffing. All the evidence I have heard and read concludes that there is no other way to cope with the situation that obtains and the regrettable demand that continues. I understand the statistics very well. The witnesses have indicated that they are talking about employing an additional 67 staff into next year and the campus manager will be employed from the end of this month. These are the critical steps that are required and I wish that exercise well. I hope that the next time we address this issue the witnesses will have good news about all of this because we all hope to get to the same place and I thank them for that.

I did not get a chance at the end of the Second Stage debate on the Child and Family Agency Bill yesterday to wish the Minister a very happy summer.

Ciara Conway (Waterford, Labour)
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I also thank the Minister and her staff for making themselves so available and congratulate them on accomplishing quite a lot in getting the legislation to the floor of the House yesterday.

Somebody who is childminding at home can benefit if she registers because she can get support from the child care committee and get a tax rebate of up to €15,000. It is predominantly women who do that and it is a voluntary system. More importantly for women, they can make a PRSI contribution to a pension. There are many benefits for women at home who are minding children. They do not need to be afraid to get involved and to register and we would have a much better system if people did so.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We will meet with Ms Norah Gibbons next Tuesday afternoon to ratify her appointment formally. I thank the Minister and her officials for their attendance and for their co-operation and courtesy. I thank Mr. Jim Breslin, Mr. Dan Kelleher and Ms Mary McLoughlin for being here.

Is there any other business?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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No.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Before we conclude, I want to refer to Deputy Naughten's comments at the beginning of the meeting. It is not common procedure for members to make personal statements in public session. We had a private meeting and at the end of that meeting I asked members if they had any comments to make under any other business. None was made. I have not been notified of any position regarding the changing of the committee system or the committee membership. As members are aware, the committee's composition is a matter for Members in the Dáil and not in the committee, and the place to take that up is the Dáil Chamber. I was prepared to let Deputy Naughten speak at the end of the meeting, as I indicated, because the only issue in the public session was the quarterly meeting with the Minister.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I expect that the Order of Business in the Dáil will ring loud today. If this is a proposal I imagine Deputy Naughten will challenge it. If what he indicated is to unfold in the course of this morning it is regrettable.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin is pre-empting what may or may not happen. We have received no notification of this.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will say it irrespective of what happens. I believe that Deputy Naughten has made a very valuable contribution to the business of this committee and that is his due from all of us.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We all concur with that. Lest people accuse the Chair of cutting down debate, members know that the Chair of this committee does not do that. I would have let Deputy Naughten speak at the end, but it is not the practice to make statements during public session. There was an opportunity for him to speak in private session.