Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The only item for discussion today is the appearance by the Ombudsman for Children, Ms Emily Logan, before us. Correspondence and the work programme will be discussed at tomorrow's meeting and the autumn work schedule at the meeting on Thursday, 25 July. The quarterly meeting with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs will be tomorrow, Thursday, 18 July at 9.30 a.m. and the quarterly meeting with the Minister for Health will be on Thursday, 25 July at 9.30 a.m. We are hoping to get the meeting of 23 July dealing with the appointment to the board of the child and family agency to an earlier time of 2.30 p.m. if that suits members rather than 5.30 p.m.

I welcome the Ombudsman for Children, Ms Logan, and Dr. Niall Muldoon and I apologise for the postponement of last Thursday's meeting. Our meeting has been convened following a request by Ms Logan to appear before us to discuss her concerns around children of the age of 18 detained in St. Patrick's Institution and the issues associated with the transfer of these children to the facility in Oberstown and her concerns, among others, about the management and staffing of the Oberstown facility. Since this request, the Minister for Justice and Equality and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs have made announcements on the issue and we will discuss that as part of our deliberations.

While witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make comments or charges against a person by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Ms Emily Logan:

I thank the Chairman. I welcome the opportunity to address the committee on the issue of youth justice. Given my direct accountability to the Oireachtas as Ombudsman for Children, it is appropriate to raise my concerns with this committee on the detention of young people in Oberstown and the transition from using St. Patrick's Institution as a place of detention for 16 and 17 year old boys. I understand that the committee has had occasion to discuss the detention of children in Oberstown with the chair of the board of the detention schools.

In addition to our presentation today we have set out a chronology of the actions of our office. It is appendixed so the committee members can see the actions our office has taken in this regard since its inception in 2005. I will place my comments in context with some background. When the Oireachtas passed the Children Act in 2001, it put in place a modern youth justice framework incorporating a number of fundamental children’s rights principles. These include the need to divert young people away from the criminal justice system as much as possible, the use of community-based sanctions and using detention as a measure of last resort.

I acknowledge the most recent action taken by the director of the Irish Prison Service and the Minister for Justice and Equality in closing St. Patrick’s Institution. Although this is a very welcome development, we must not forget that calls to close St. Patrick’s Institution have been made for more than 28 years dating back to the Whitaker report in 1985. In 2009, our office took the unusual step of consulting with 35 people under the age of 18 in St. Patrick’s Institution to find out their experience. This was unusual in the sense that the Ombudsman for Children Act at that time did not allow for me to accept complaints from children in St. Patrick's. However, an alternative provision of the Act gave me the authority to consult with any group of children and young people and to highlight matters of concern to children and young people.

It was abundantly clear to me when my team and I talked to the young people in St. Patrick’s in 2009 that the problem was not merely one of accommodation, but a culture that was detrimental to the young people detained there. I had no previous personal experience of prisons before entering St. Patrick’s. I found it a very oppressive environment and the tension between the young people and some staff was palpable. It felt like an intimidating environment for the young people. I recall the expressions of fear and anxiety from some young people very vividly. Some of the children reported feeling unsafe, cold and hungry.

One described being locked up for 23 hours in a cell on protection and described the cell as: "F...king freezing! A padded wall, no clothes, only a pair of Y-fronts... for days."

At the conclusion of the project, I called for the closure of the prison as a place of detention for young people. There was further questioning by international monitors of children's rights, namely, the UN Committee Against Torture and the Council of Europe, on the findings of our report and the conditions in St. Patrick’s Institution. We must reflect on why it has taken 28 years to finally get to the point of closing an institution described by the chaplains as a monument to State failure.

The 2012 report of the Inspector of Prisons, Judge Michael Reilly, published earlier this month, also found very disturbing incidents of non-compliance with human rights standards. For example, one prisoner who had been moved to St. Patrick’s Institution that day was in a cold and dirty cell where the toilet was filled with excrement. The inspector found the young person crying in bed because he had been refused permission to make a telephone call to his father. He described the prisoner as afraid. I hope that as we move to a new era of youth justice in Ireland with the closure of St. Patrick’s Institution, we will also see an end to the culture of disbelief when faced with such accounts.

The Government has decided that Wheatfield Prison will be used in the interim to accommodate 17 year olds. I visited Wheatfield Prison last week and met the governor and director of the Irish Prison Service to discuss the proposed move. It appeared to me the facilities and, more importantly, the culture in Wheatfield Prison are significantly better than those in St. Patrick’s Institution. However, we must not lose sight of the fact that irrespective of the conditions obtaining in the prison, we are moving children from one prison to another. Wheatfield is an adult prison, and an adult prison is no place for any child under the age of 18.

I referred to St. Patrick's Institution because it is significant with regard to getting young people out of prison that the Oberstown project is progressed. Oberstown is designed to be a children’s detention school rather than a prison. The difference is that in a custodial environment one is locked up, but in a detention school children should receive therapeutic intervention and education which will enable them to return as active members of our communities. When the Minister for Justice and Equality established the Thornton Hall project review group in 2011, I made a number of recommendations to it. These recommendations included moving 16 and 17 year old boys to Oberstown on a phased basis to afford staff the opportunity to become accustomed to the new cohort of young people; to put in place a project manager to oversee the transition, ensure the project happens and act as a link between St. Patrick’s Institution and Oberstown; and to enhance the skills and capacity of staff in Oberstown as part of the transition.

One of the reasons I emphasised the importance of putting in place a project manager and examining staff capacity was that I was aware of industrial relations issues identified in Oberstown at the time. A further industrial relations challenge arose when the decision was made last year to begin detaining 16 year old children in Oberstown. I received a solicitor’s letter on behalf of a group of staff in Oberstown setting out their concerns regarding this move, to which the group of staff in question was opposed. The main concern set out in the letter I received was that staff in Oberstown were not trained to deal with 16 and 17 year old boys. In light of the concern expressed to me regarding the capacity of staff in Oberstown, I was disappointed to read in the most recent annual report of the inspector of prisons that a proposed initiative to have care staff from the detention schools work alongside prison staff in St. Patrick’s Institution was not facilitated. The skills gained from such a period of work could perhaps have addressed some of the concerns outlined to me regarding staff capacity in Oberstown.

A further concern has come to my attention in the past week regarding the reorganisation of existing units in Oberstown. This change has arisen from the need for a greater number of beds for boys than had been anticipated. As the committee is aware, this matter recently entered the public domain as a number of judges were unable to remand boys to detention due to a lack of space on the particular days in question. The concerns raised with me about the girl in detention in Oberstown are that her mobility and recreational opportunities are restricted. The young person in question is not going to be able to have the type of life she should because she is the only girl in a campus of teenage boys.

I am a pragmatist by nature and I am not opposed to pragmatic solutions to capacity problems in Oberstown, but such solutions must not come at the expense of young people’s well-being or the need to observe the relevant care standards. We must take care not to place institutional interests ahead of the interests of children.

I do not wish to give an entirely negative assessment of the current situation. It is only fair to say the improvement in youth justice has accelerated under the Government due to four key efforts, namely, capital investment in the Oberstown facility; the fact that since May last year 16 year old boys are no longer sent to prisons; the extension of the investigative remit of the Office of the Ombudsman for Children since July 2012; and the closure of St. Patrick’s Institution. All of these are significant developments which should make young people’s experience of detention much less intimidating. I have never suggested anything other than that young people who commit crimes must pay the price, which is the loss of their liberty, and beyond this a sentence is not to instil a sense of fear in any child or young person.

I hope the momentum will be maintained and Members of the Oireachtas have an important role to play in this regard as legislators creating a more modern youth justice system. It is important that we continue to monitor it. The roadmap for the development of a child-based youth justice system was set out by the Houses in the Children Act 2001. The current reforms are an integral part of realising this vision and ensuring children will not be detained in a prison. I trust the committee will continue its engagement with the key stakeholders in this area to ensure the reform process does not falter.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Logan for her very comprehensive remarks. It is important to note the committee was due to visit Oberstown but it had to be put back because the committee had to deal with other matters such as Bills. It should be put on the record the Minister for Justice and Equality and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, as Ms Logan rightly stated, have ensured no child under 16 years of age will be in St. Patrick's Institution. The tendering process for Oberstown is beginning and this work will continue. There is a commitment for capital funding for it. It is important we have this debate because there has been an acceleration in progress.

Deputies Robert Troy and Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin send their apologies. They are in the Dáil speaking on Second Stage of the Child and Family Agency Bill.

Ms Emily Logan:

I appreciate that.

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome Ms Logan and thank her for her presentation which was very enlightening. I will ask questions on behalf of Deputy Ó Caoláin. I must apologise because I will need to leave the meeting as I am due to speak on the Bill in the Dáil.

It is a very positive step that the Ombudsman for Children's responsibility has been extended to cover children in the prison detention system. The change in emphasis with regard to children's detention centres as opposed to prisons is positive. The interests of children must be paramount. We must avoid creating another St. Patrick's institution. Will Oberstown have adequate staff and will they be suitably trained? What measures are required in this regard? The proposal for Oberstown staff to shadow St. Patrick's staff for a period was not implemented. Has a training needs assessment been carried out at Oberstown?

The number of hours lost to sick leave across the three schools on the campus between 1 September 2012 and 28 February 2013 is significant. At Oberstown girls school the figure was 460 hours, at Oberstown boys school the figure was 261 hours and at Trinity House school the figure was 1117 hours. This was before the new roster was introduced in February. Are more recent figures available? Is there an increase in the number of assaults, sick leave and breaches of health and safety? The Ombudsman for Children paints a negative picture as do staff working in Oberstown. How does this impact on the well-being of the children there and have such impacts been measured? Has the Ombudsman for Children spoken to the children there as she did to the children in St. Patrick's institution? If not will she do so? Has the Ombudsman for Children seen Victor McElfatrick's report? What are the outstanding complaints? Has the proposal for a mixed gender unit, which was originally scheduled to open on 25 July, been scrapped? Are we sure the capital project at Oberstown will be delivered on time and within budget?

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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I thank the Ombudsman for Children for her attendance and her presentation.

Perhaps Ms Logan will confirm an impression that I have. For 16, 17 and 18 year olds, the key factors are the culture of the institution and its staff, education and access to related services. We are not there yet, but are we heading in the correct direction and is the timeframe in question acceptable? Do particular staff professions need to be in place in Oberstown to ensure that the overall culture is right and children have a good chance of leaving the institution better able to take their places in their communities and to find employment? Does Ms Logan want the committee to take specific actions in light of her presentation?

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Logan for her presentation. The work her office completes every week is invaluable to everyone who needs an advocate. I congratulate her on a wonderful job and thank for her attending this meeting.

I agree that there are major issues at Oberstown. The lack of finances and the industrial relations disputes that are affecting bed capacity need to be addressed and are not excuses, but anecdotal evidence suggests that the personal treatment of those at Oberstown is not up to scratch. Many workers in the sector are on stress leave, but are there underlying causes for this treatment of young people that we have not discussed or that are being discussed behind closed doors?

The penalty for committing a crime is the removal of liberty. This does not mean that we should cut young people's ankles off everyday to remind them of what they have done. The purpose of a rehabilitation system is to encourage, rehabilitate and educate and to remove the obstacles that caused young people and adults to go down a particular path in the first place, but this purpose is not being met. We are inflicting a situation on young people that makes them more bitter and full of angst. This situation has not arisen simply because six beds are not open or people are stressed. What are we doing wrong and what must we do to fix it?

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I wish to add something regarding the second paragraph of Ms Logan's statement. I do not mean to put her on the spot but, given the increase in court referrals to detention centres, are we using detention as opposed to community-based sanctions as the first rather than last resort? I was struck by the commentary by some of those who administer the justice system. They seem to be sending people into institutions at the flick of a switch instead of exploring other avenues. I will stand corrected if I am wrong.

I compliment Ms Logan on her advocacy role and her invaluable work. It is important that her work be recognised by the committee. For this reason, we were anxious to have her attend as soon as possible. Given my preparations for this meeting and having listened to Ms Logan, it strikes me that the only method we are using is to send people to place X.

Ms Emily Logan:

I will start with Deputy McLellan's first question on staff and resources. The Finglas Child and Adolescent Centre was closed. I understand that 20 members of its staff went to Oberstown. While it is not my place to tell the Executive how to spend its resources, we need to challenge knee-jerk discussions on resources, which are often the first response, and ask whether there is actually an issue in that regard. Current capacity at Oberstown is 52 and there are more than 220 staff. There is no doubt that the children at Oberstown have challenging behaviours and one would expect there to be more staff than in other care environments, but the question of whether levels of competence and capacity need to be upskilled as opposed to additional staff provided should be put to the board of Oberstown. I understand that-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Has Ms Logan met the Irish Youth Justice Service on this matter?

Ms Emily Logan:

Numerous times. I have also met the chairman and other members of the board. This is not new for us, although momentum has been growing since the closure of St. Patrick's Institution.

In terms of training need assessment, I am subtly trying to encourage the committee to not accept everything without supporting evidence. I have received letters asserting that people are unable to look after 16 year olds and 17 year olds. As someone who has worked as a public servant for 31 years, I have never heard of anyone being trained to look after children only up to the age of 15 years. It is possible that the staff are viewing the situation through their own experience at Oberstown. As there have always been girls there up to the age of 18 years, we are referring specifically to boys. In my experience, there is no difference between a 15 year old boy and a 16 year old boy. I have worked with children for 30 years. I am unsure as to why this distinction was ever allowed to develop. I would challenge it.

I have no question about any change for any staff. I was a director at Tallaght hospital with 1,200 staff before I got this job and I am accustomed to managing change and bringing staff through change. It is important that people feel competent and upskilled when providing care for any group. I would suggest that it is an issue of upskilling as opposed to one of a lack of training in looking after children.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Is Ms Logan confident that the new arrangements will work, given the procrastination to date?

Ms Emily Logan:

I do not want to get into the minutiae of how they will be operationalised, as it is not my place, but there is a strong desire that everyone on the campus should be able to look after any child up to 18 years of age. This is not an aspiration - it is a reasonable expectation.

There is a publicly reported increase in the amount of sick leave. As someone who is an experienced public servant and manager of large organisations, an increase in sick leave is usually a symptom of something else. I would be cautious and encourage the committee not to respond immediately by demonising any client group. In this case, it is children who have committed crimes, but it could be any group of vulnerable adults. It does not matter whether one works in the public sector. If one is a social worker, one expects to be confronted with families that are vulnerable. As a nurse in an accident and emergency department, one expects to meet abusive clients. If one is a social care worker in an environment where children are in conflict with the law, it is a reasonable expectation that the children will be challenging.

It is a matter of being competent, trained and upskilled to deal with the situation.

Reference was made to assault leave but I caution against using the children as the reason. Perhaps we should explore a little bit further why this is a symptom of an organisation that clearly does not work as a single body, in that there are three siloed institutions on one campus.

We speak to children all of the time. Sadly, the children at Oberstown and St. Patrick's Institution sometimes have the same profile as the children contained in the child death review report compiled by Dr. Geoffrey Shannon and Ms Norah Gibbons. They have been known to the care system and State for many years. Most who are sent to both places on remand are in care of the State. There is a quite a strong connection between how we provide for children in our child protection system and what happens to them after they have been in conflict with the law. Children who have poor family attachments also have problems with mental health, drugs and substance abuse. These are risk behaviours and, when they converge, children are more likely to get involved or be in conflict with the law.

I wrote down Deputy McLellan's last question on the capital project. I have no fears about it, as the Minister has been demonstrative in her statements on the Government's commitment to ring-fencing it.

Deputy Healy was the next to ask questions and asked whether we were going in the right direction. I am confident about that, which is why I referred to the Children Act 2001. It is very good legislation that is thought of highly internationally. People believe it is a very good vision for a youth justice system. The system should not be about sending children to prisons and detaining them for lower level crimes, but dealing with them in the community under supervision while keeping detention as a last resort. I support the legislative and policy direction.

As to whether the timeframe is acceptable, it is probably unfair. It is easy for me, at a distance, to say what the timeframe should be. I want to see some progress, but I am probably at this meeting because I do not have the same sense of progress that we made in the early part of 2011, specifically regarding Oberstown. I am not referring to the accommodation. I mean in terms of-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Is Ms Logan referring specifically to the HR issues?

Ms Emily Logan:

Industrial relations, HR and governance issues. Some of the governance is a little bit old-fashioned and dates back to the old reformatory schools. We have a board of management but its structure is quite old-fashioned. It is not for me to suggest but there may be better and more efficient ways of having a straight line to the Minister. The staff support the notion of a single campus director. I also support it. The three institutions need to be pulled together under the leadership of one individual.

I am not in a position to answer the question on the category of staff. It is more appropriate to the Irish Youth Justice Service, IYJS. We need a mix of staff ranging from care workers, more senior staff and more professionalised groups such as social workers. It is my experience internationally that places of detention with a mix of staff and disciplines deliver the best results for children.

Oberstown has been in existence for many years. I am sure that some of its staff have worked there for many years. It is a question of trying to ensure that they feel competent. In order to have a healthy culture, one needs staff to be healthy and able to provide such a culture.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Does Ms Logan think that the appointment of a single Oberstown campus management would be a major positive?

Ms Emily Logan:

Yes.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Is that in train?

Ms Emily Logan:

The Government is better placed to answer, but my understanding is that the notion has received support from the staff. Four staff information days were held late last year. It is important that the appointment is progressed quite quickly as it is critical to ensuring the project becomes operational.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We can arrange that with the Minister when she attends tomorrow.

Ms Emily Logan:

Okay.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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It is my information that the single campus manager process is in train.

Ms Emily Logan:

Deputy Regina Doherty asked about symptoms. Perhaps I have already referred to some of them. There were questions on sick leave and people demonising children. Both tend to indicate an organisation or culture that is in need of assistance. This view stems from my experience of managing other institutions and my observations of what is going on in Oberstown. When people talk about extrinsic rewards, it usually means that there is something intrinsically wrong with how an organisation is being run.

The Chairman asked a reasonable question about exploring other avenues instead of detention. People have referred to the amount of referrals in percentage terms at 70%. That sounds like a large number but it is only seven teenage boys. It is a small number. Perhaps the Judiciary does not feel as bad about sending children to Oberstown because it is a care environment and not a prison. It is reasonable to consider this issue. The Judiciary needs to utilise our well-developed youth justice and youth diversion systems. I have met the juvenile liaison officers and can vouch that there are great people working in the community and in the Probation Service. The system is well developed in terms of community alternatives for teenagers and we should utilise them.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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I welcome the Ombudsman for Children and apologise for being late. The matter is difficult. The Child and Family Agency Bill is before the Dáil.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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This meeting is an hour and a half earlier because our meeting was deferred last week due to the overnight sitting.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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I accept that. The agency is relevant to the issues that we are discussing, a pointed made by Ms Logan. I wanted to put on the record that the other meeting has led to today's smaller than normal attendance at our meeting on this important issue.

I compliment Ms Logan on her role. She has addressed numerous issues. Our paths have crossed many times on various issues. I commend her and her office formally on that work.

From the evidence she has supplied, it is clear that we have gone beyond a cry for help for the reform of Oberstown's operations and structures. There are industrial relations challenges but a part of the problem is the institution's archaic management structure. The committee must unanimously agree to write to the Minister, or express to her tomorrow, that we believe that a single campus director needs to be appointed as soon as possible. That person should be able to help address some of the challenges.

The children at Oberstown have been failed by the system several times. In many cases, they have been failed since birth. We have limited financial resources but Ms Logan pointed out that it is not always a question of money. The Foróige big brother and big sister initiative has proven successful for a relatively small amount of money. Young people are diverted from a bad route either at or even before their first contact with judicial authorities.

Ms Logan made an important point, that being, many of the children in question have no family structure. They have no one look up to. The great aspect of the big brother and big sister initiative is that it fills that space. The amount of money is peanuts. I do not know whether Ms Logan wants to comment, but I will ask the question anyway.

Does Ms Logan believe it is a mistake that the Department is not prepared to fund that programme going forward and that it will finish at the end of the year? Does she believe it is detrimental in regard to improving the outcomes of many of these children who end up in difficult situations and who could end up going into the Oberstown system in the future?

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I welcome the witnesses and apologise for having to leave earlier but a constituent had an emergency situation with which I had to deal that was not entirely unrelated to the sort of thing about which we are talking here. I am very conscious of the fact that most people who end in Oberstown probably come from a particular background. I could nearly name the estates in my constituency from which they are likely to come and that probably true of other parts of the country. Do the witnesses think any of the interventions being made, such as DEIS, are likely to make any difference in the long run in terms of getting young people to grow up so that they are not confronted with the likes of Oberstown? To go back to Deputy Naughten's question, would the witnesses agree that many of the problems stem from the fact that some of the people who get into trouble with the law do not have good family situations? How can we best try to tackle that problem in the modern world?

Ms Emily Logan:

I am very familiar with the Foróige project to which Deputy Naughten referred. It is probably not appropriate for me, as Ombudsman for Children, to support one project over another because I get many letters. However, I acknowledge that Foróige does wonderful work. I would be very supportive of Deputies Naughten and Dowds in their advocacy of preventative measures, which are very important. It is important that we do not end up putting all our resources into the wrong end of the spectrum. Although we are talking about Oberstown today, the profile of children is as Deputy Dowds said. It is the same group of children coming from the same estates and our orientation should be much more towards preventative measures at an early stage. I do not have the answers to some of the societal challenges put forward but I have been out and about in communities and have seen some wonderful programmes from the voluntary sector, whether from Barnardos or otherwise, and people working in communities in those very estates about which Deputy Dowds talked.

We need to be careful and to have a long-term vision of what we want and not just have the short-term measure of fixing Oberstown. That is why I speak beyond capital projects and talk about cultures because in the long term we need to be very careful and to give very considered responses to some of the preventative interventions we could undertake. We see that quite a lot in our office, specifically in regard to child protection where a family might have been struggling for many years and where there was very little action or support but when there was a crisis, there was quite a lot of State intervention. I would be much more supportive of earlier intervention, as I am sure would many members of the committee. It is something to which many people have referred.

In regard to the issue of health and education working together, I would very much like to see inter-agency co-operation at a much earlier stage. I know there have been very encouraging comments in regard to early education because that is when one picks things up. If one invests in early education, many of the social problems about which we talk can be picked up much earlier than when children become teenagers and get involved in crime.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Does Ms Logan find there is more early intervention and joined up thinking?

Ms Emily Logan:

It is fair to say there are people now in the Department of Children and Youth Affairs from education and that they are beginning to talk to each other. I know that in terms of the Child and Family Agency, efforts are being made to work across education. It is at the early stages but the signs are good and we should be encouraging people to do that. The teachers in the DEIS schools first pick up the fact a child is being neglected, that a child's behaviour is withdrawn or that there is a problem before the child is ever referred to the social care system. It is very important to see health and social care working together.

Having said all of that, time and again, we meet many individuals who are really committed. I feel very positive that there are many people in Ireland who care about these children and families and who are willing. We need to get the framework, the policy, the leadership and the accountability right and we will have more positive things to report.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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In terms of pragmatic solutions, does Ms Logan think we are in that space where we can find them?

Ms Emily Logan:

We need to be careful that we are not only finding pragmatic solutions. For instance, what are we doing right in Ireland that we do not have girls committing crimes? We have one young person in Oberstown. This is something about which we should be talking internationally. One can be pragmatic but that requires pragmatism on all sides, including from the staff, the children and everybody involved. There can be pragmatic solutions but we need to be careful that we are not taking the short-term solution, or a band aid solution, to things. This will be a long-term project. We do not want to be here talking about this in the future, like we did about St. Patrick's 28 years ago. We can anticipate what is before us.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Is one of the problems - I say this having some experience in the area of education - the fact there are very few role models for many boys? Most of the teachers are women and they often do not have a father at home. At least the girls have the role model of their mother and often teachers. I think that is part of the problem and a real issue to be addressed.

Ms Emily Logan:

From my visit to Wheatfield last week, having male role models for those teenage boys can really turn around somebody's life. Deputy Dowds makes a very valid point. I do not feel I am expert enough as a sociologist to comment but it is an issue for our education system inasmuch as it is our social care system.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I was a teacher before I was elected to the Dáil and I often felt that I was the only male role model in many children's lives and, hopefully, I was a decent one. There were one or two male staff in the school but the rest were women, some of whom were absolutely superb. The boys, in particular, were hugely lacking in any sort of male role model.

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

Deputy Dowds is 100% correct. An important aspect for any young boy growing up is to have somebody he can follow and look up to. Unfortunately, as we divert things away from upstream, look back down to the preventative situations and cut funding there, it makes it harder for them to find the right person to look up to and, unfortunately, they look up to their peers, which is natural. However, if those peers are going in the wrong direction, it makes it much more difficult to turn the direction of their lives.

What one finds in Oberstown and places like is young people who still have an opportunity within that system to turn their lives around, to come out in a different way and to be rehabilitated, for the want of a better word. St. Patrick's was literally the old fashioned borstal and the opportunity to rehabilitate and change and to find therapeutic and educational opportunities were lost.

One of the complaints we got from St. Patrick's was of a young boy who had been in and out of detention since he was 15 years of age and who had been doing a very good job in Oberstown where he got the opportunity for therapy and education and he was moving towards the leaving certificate. However, as soon as he turned 17 years of age, he was put into St. Patrick's because that was still the law. Within a number of days of being in St. Patrick's, he was unfortunately caught in a violent situation and the disciplinary action of the staff was that he lost privileges and, therefore, educational and therapeutic opportunities were lost. The same situation will happen again because 17 year olds will be put in Wheatfield.

As we start to make progress with these young people in Oberstown - the set-up is as good as we would like it to be - they will still be moved to Wheatfield, which is unfortunate. We want to make sure we change that. The idea of one good adult, which is what Headstrong promotes, can turn a child's life around. Oberstown can be one of those last stops before the life is harder to turn around. That is what we are trying to promote here. Over the past 100 years, Ireland has locked up behind walls all of our problem situations.

This is one of the few that are left and we have to clear the dust out and start again - three settings on one site that are totally closed off and totally institutionalised. Even using the word "institutional" is very backward. We must have a situation in which we can blow the cobwebs away and start afresh with a campus manager. A campus manager should have an opportunity to start afresh in order to give those young people a new opportunity that will turn their life around. That is what we should be doing as opposed to creating career criminals, which is what has happened up to now.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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How confident is Dr. Muldoon about the commonality of common policies to be shared by institutions? We are trying to improve the quality of life of the young person, which it is hoped will lead to rehabilitation and the ability to be a productive active citizen. How confident is Dr. Muldoon that such a transformation can take place?

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

We are confident that a start has been made. The momentum needs to be maintained. As Ms Logan stated the momentum is crucial. We know the capital piece will be in mid-2014 but much can be done to change the culture, which is crucial in that time.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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How does one change the culture? We can visit the institutions and bring the boards before the committee and advocate on behalf of the young people. How do we get buy in from them?

I am a former school teacher and I saw students who flourished when they were protected and looked after and kept from the environment that was hostile to them becoming the person they were capable of. Apart from the capital investment in Oberstown and the HR and IR functions, how do legislators ensure that these young people flourish?

It is in all our interests to see young people flourishing and their needs as described in Maslow's hierarchy of needs being met until they reach self actualisation, which we all have the ambition to reach. We would certainly share Dr. Muldoon's ideology that we must try to assist the young person to be rehabilitated and become the complete person.

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

I suggest that a good start is to employ a campus manager with a more positive job description and mission statement. The goals that need to be written into the culture of the organisation are to reduce recidivism and to create a positive lifestyle. If the campus manger sees these goals as his or her remit, then the person overseeing that work could follow through on that over time.

Ms Emily Logan:

It is important the Oireachtas Members as legislators are seen to show an interest in this because as Dr. Muldoon states, it is the final piece of the jigsaw. We have been going very well and let us not lose the momentum. The Minister has had the gumption to close St. Patrick's Institution. It is a small cohort of offenders so the issue is not insurmountable. I think it is possible to do it.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I question whether there is a temptation in passing sentence to point towards sending the young person away in the first instance rather than taking the other steps such as community service or others down the road? Am I wrong in making that assertion? It seems there has been an increase-----

Ms Emily Logan:

That is a reasonable question. In the past there have been occasions when community sanctions have not been used and the Irish Penal Reform Trust, IPRT has been very strong on encouraging the Judiciary to use all other opportunities apart from detention, which should be seen as a last resort, to respond to offenders. There is a culture on how we deal with crime. We are still seeing young people being detained for a first offence. To be fair we all need to step up to the plate. Let us all play our part. Although we are a small office we would be happy to contribute, for example in staff training. If we could contribute to training of staff in any way, we would be happy to roll up our sleeves and do it. Everybody, whether members of the Judiciary, management of institutions or legislators needs to keep a keen interest in it. We should be evaluating it and hearing from the board before this starts to keep up the momentum.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We are having a serious discussion on the issue of young people in detention but not one person from the press is present.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The press may be watching the proceedings in the office.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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If a member behaved like an idiot, it would be front page news tomorrow. However, because we are having a serious discussion, it will probably never see the light of day. There needs to be a great deal of conversation on this general subject in society as well as in this room.

Ms Emily Logan:

I am not defending the press but it would be fair to say it has been very good in terms of following the issues related to St. Patrick's Institution and the Oberstown issue. I will keep this discussion in the public domain.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The joint committee will keep it in the public domain, as this Government closed down St. Patrick's Institution and no young people aged under 16 years are there. A capital project has been announced. The committee members will visit Oberstown. We were to visit earlier this year but because of other commitments we had to change that.

Ms Emily Logan:

We can be supportive. Sometimes the optics can be supportive to staff. They feel it is not hidden.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We will make the case to the Minister tomorrow for the campus manager to be put in place in Oberstown and we as a committee will commit to going to visit, as a means of showing support and also to show the staff and the young people in care that we are interested in ensuring the situation evolves so that the young people become winners rather than losers, to use terminology, which I know is not the most apt.

Ms Emily Logan:

I have spoken to Mr. Joe Horan, the chairman of the board of management for the three children detention schools in Oberstown.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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He has appeared before the joint committee.

Ms Emily Logan:

He is well aware that I was coming before the committee. He would be happy to appear before the committee.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in today. I apologise for last week. Today's meeting clashed with the debate in the Dáil on the Child and Family Agency Bill 2013 and is the reasons that Deputies Troy and Ó Caoláin and others were absent.

Ms Emily Logan:

That is the reason for the office of the Ombudsman for Children - to keep at it.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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In fairness to the members who are present, we are committed.

Ms Emily Logan:

I appreciate that.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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While our discussion was short, it was a very positive engagement. I thank Ms Logan for highlighting the issue, and I thank Dr. Muldoon for coming before us today.

Ms Emily Logan:

I thank the Chairman.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I remind members that the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, will attend our meeting at 9.30 a.m. tomorrow morning.