Mr. David Matas:

I have been asked a number of questions. Senator Ó Murchú asked whether there has been any breakdown in reticence. I should say that the issue automatically comes up because of the universal periodic review of the UN Human Rights Council, which takes place every three years. China's review will take place on 22 October next. Ireland, as a current member of that council, and every other country will have an opportunity to raise this issue publicly on that occasion. Three years ago, Canada was the only country to raise the Falun Gong issue. Many countries raised peripheral or related issues such as freedom of religion, death penalty statistics and re-education through labour camps. One should take advantage of the many ways of dealing with the issue. The UN has dealt with it through the rapporteur on torture and religious intolerance and the committee on torture. I think that is helpful. The US State Department, through its country reports, dealt with it for the first time this year after the Wang Lijun defection. It has certainly taken that step. I have been working on this issue for seven years since our report first came out. This is my second appearance before a committee of the Irish Parliament. I do not know if any of the members who are here now were in attendance the last time I came here, which was in 2007. It is great to be back, even if the people have changed. Over the years, I have found that there is an increasing willingness to do things on this issue, and to confront China about it, as people become more familiar with the issue.

The response of the Chinese Government when it comes to Falun Gong is as bad as it always was. I accept and endorse what Mr. Gutmann has said about the existence of two Chinas. As I see it, the two Chinas are the State and the party. We all see the state apparatus, but we do not see the party, which is really running the show. Every state function has a party instructor who instructs the state functionary. All of that is done behind closed doors. The party does not issue edicts. It has a propaganda campaign against the Falun Gong. The apparatus known as the 610 Office is running the persecution. It is done behind closed doors. It is not a public function. The West may not even see what is going on and what the Communist Party is doing. If we are used to understanding China, we can see the after-effects of what happens. Over the years, Huang Jiefu, who was the deputy minister of health and is now in charge of a special organ transplant institution in China, has become the front person on organ harvesting. When we first did our report, the initial position of the Government of China was that all organs were coming from donations, even though there was no donation system. Huang Jiefu is a little more sophisticated than that. He acknowledges, and he has got the whole system to acknowledge, that pretty much everything is coming from prisoners. He is not prepared to admit that it is coming from prisoners of conscience. Until recently, he would say nothing when he was asked about Falun Gong. The questions have become so persistent that he has finally denied it, for obvious political reasons.

The official Chinese line is to admit that organs are being sourced from prisoners, to accept that sourcing organs from prisoners is wrong and to say that it will stop doing so if it is given some time. As Mr. Gutmann has said, the little bargain they want to strike is "forget about what we have done in the past and help us get to where we should be in the future". As a human rights advocate, I appreciate the comment that was made about international institutions. I would say that human rights do not belong to international institutions or governments - they belong to individuals everywhere around the world. The way to ensure human rights are respected is for people around the world who have such rights to assert them rather than relying on institutions or governments to do so. I am not strategically or temperamentally inclined to avoid confrontation with China. If one is so inclined, one can still find ways of pursuing this issue - for example, by saying "Okay, we will help you stop sourcing organs from prisoners," or "Okay, we agree that Chinese people should be a priority and we will stop transplant tourism". Both of those approaches are in line with the Chinese agenda. There are different ways of pursuing this matter. It would be a better world if China were to stop sourcing organs from prisoners, but like Mr. Gutmann I do not accept that it would be enough. They have to acknowledge what has happened and they have to punish the wrongdoers. I would not be happy with the ending of the sourcing of organs from prisoners alone, but it is certainly something worth pushing for. China would agree with that.