Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We now turn to No. 7, terms of reference of the sub-committee on global taxation and discussion on the motions submitted. The joint committee has a number of motions before it for discussion this afternoon and with the agreement of members, I wish to conclude this part of the meeting no later than 3.50 p.m. The motions referring to the sub-committee on global taxation specifically deal with the terms of reference conferred on the sub-committee by the joint committee. My recollection and understanding from previous lengthy debates prior to establishing the sub-committee was the joint committee had agreed the priority now was for it to examine the international taxation architecture and how Ireland interacts therewith. The effect was to build a report that had standing and, having re-examined the tapes of those earlier discussions, I can confirm the joint committee agreed this would be the case. It was agreed that in the first instance, the sub-committee would engage with the policy platform. This includes the Department of Finance, the Revenue Commissioners, the OECD and policy, academic and taxation experts. It was then for the committee to decide on its next step, once this initial phase concluded. Deputy Pearse Doherty specifically requested that witnesses not be confined to what has been termed "forces of the State" or forces deemed to be representative of what is termed "statist" views. It was agreed that the joint committee would invite independent experts to brief the sub-committee on its examination. However, it was clearly agreed not to invite the multinationals.

The joint committee is now returning to this issue and the motions were received in the following order: the motion tabled by Deputy Pearse Doherty, followed by motions tabled by Deputies Boyd Barrett and Higgins. I also note Deputy Dara Murphy submitted an amendment to Deputy Pearse Doherty's motion. While I will take the motions in the order in which they were submitted, the motion from Deputy Pearse Doherty and the amendment submitted by Deputy Dara Murphy will be disposed of first, followed by the motions of Deputies Boyd Barrett and Higgins, in that order.

For the information of members, if a motion is agreed to, the joint committee must make a report on the matter to the Houses. I now call on Deputy Pearse Doherty to move his motion.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I move:

That the Sub-Committee on Global Taxation may invite, if it sees it as appropriate, and after hearing from the OECD, the Department of Finance, the Revenue Commissioners and the Minister for Finance, and the other named individuals discussed at the Sub-Committee on Global Taxation meeting of 26 June, other witnesses before the committee.

It has been my clear intention, which I never kept from the joint committee, that as part of this, members should invite multinationals to appear before the sub-committee to seek their views on where Ireland sits in respect of multinational corporation tax. It is my clear view that the sub-committee to be established and which met for the first time last week, should not be barred from asking the multinational companies to appear before it and to provide information or evidence as to their perception of the corporation tax rule in the State. However, from the previous meetings and discussions it is clear that a number of members of this joint committee wish at all costs to avoid seeing the multinational companies appear before the sub-committee, including companies such as Apple and Google, which have been named in international hearings. It would discredit this committee's work to invite, as members have agreed at the sub-committee meeting, 17 different individuals, four from what one might call State groups, namely, the OECD, the Department of Finance, the Minister for Finance and the Revenue Commissioners, as well as 13 or 14 academics, without asking a single multinational corporation. Members must remember that some of these multinational corporations, such as, for example, Apple Operations International, have been named and in the case of the latter, has given evidence voluntarily to a Senate committee in the United States that for four years, it recorded profits of €29.9 billion, which equates to 30% of Apple's entire global profits. It is incorporated in Ireland and does not pay a single cent of tax in this State or in any other jurisdiction internationally. Moreover, it employs no one in this State.

As for having a discussion that will take a number of weeks, possibly a number of months, to deal with this issue without asking any multinational company to come before it, I note the amendment to my motion seeks to have the committee finish its work and make a report and thereafter have a discussion or possible recommendation that witnesses be brought in at a later stage. It is my view, from listening to members of this joint committee, that they wish at all costs to avoid having the likes of Apple, Google or Facebook appearing before the committee. However, this would be folly for members and would discredit the type of work they are doing. If Apple is willing to come before the United States Senate and if other companies are willing to attend hearings in Britain, members should be willing to request, if it is deemed appropriate by the sub-committee, such companies to appear before them and answer questions as to whether they consider the corporation tax laws in this State and internationally to be appropriate or whether they are using the corporation tax rules to create bigger dividends for their shareholders at the expense of the Exchequer here.

Consequently, I wish to push my motion and feel very passionate about this issue. As stated previously, I raised the original motion more than seven months ago and setting up this type of sub-committee with a bar on its ability to invite multinational companies before it makes no sense or logic to me at present. Members should not be afraid of asking questions as these corporations are major entities. I do not single out Apple, although it has been singled out in the United States Senate. Other corporations, which are not availing of such loopholes, should also be invited to appear before the sub-committee to seek their views. However, these corporations have more revenue than does the entire State and their means are greater than those of this State. They are big enough and well capable of appearing before a hearing of the sub-committee to answer questions on evidence they have given, which is already in the public domain, in the United States Senate.

Other companies, which are complying completely with the laws - as is Apple because the laws allow it to do this - also should be invited to explain to members of the sub-committee their view, from a multinational's perspective, of how Ireland's corporation tax rules sit with them. It is fine and well to have the State bodies and the academics here to give their views but the missing piece of the jigsaw concerns the multinational corporations. A refusal to do this sends out a terrible signal, both domestically and internationally, that we do not wish to deal with the issues that have been raised at an international level. Moreover, not only is this issue being raised in the United States and Britain but it also is being raised by senior officials and Ministers in the Australian Parliament and has been referenced right across the globe.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Deputy Doherty. Before calling on Deputy Dara Murphy to speak on his amendment, does anyone else wish to speak on Deputy Doherty's motion?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are we taking all the motions together?

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, we are taking Deputy Doherty's motion followed by Deputy Dara Murphy's amendment thereto, after which we are moving to your motion. Thereafter, we must resolve the issue with Deputy Higgins's motion later in the meeting. Do you wish to speak on Deputy Doherty's motion?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. I find it extraordinary that there would be any effort to block a request to bring representatives of multinationals such as Google, Facebook and others, which have been accused in a number of quarters internationally-----

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I remind members that we are in public session and while they may enjoy the privilege of making accusations or even of being defamatory, I ask them to be mindful that the comments transmit beyond this room, where other matters are examined and observed in the media and so forth.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I find it extraordinary that there has been an attempt to block a simple request to bring before the joint committee representatives of a number of multinational companies, including Google, Facebook and Apple, which have been accused in a number of quarters internationally of engaging in aggressive tax avoidance, in order that members will be able to ask them questions on the matter. It beggars belief that we could discuss global and multinational tax architecture and its relationship to this State and our role in it without asking some of the key players based in this country to come before the joint committee to express their views on the issue. This does not make sense. We are asking people who are at one remove to give us what is supposedly expert analysis of the issue, rather than questioning those who are at the centre of the issue, namely, the corporations. Nobody knows more about this issue than the multinational companies, although it remains to be seen whether they will provide honest answers.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is moving into a prejudicial position in assuming that someone would be dishonest in any context. I ask him to use measured language.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will repeat what I said. I used the words "it remains to be seen".

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy stated that people may come before us and act dishonestly. In doing so, he is making a presumption and leading-----

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not a presumption.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will have to rule the Deputy out of order if he accuses people of being dishonest.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did not accuse anybody of dishonesty. I stated it remains to be seen whether they would be dishonest.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy may proceed.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It remains to be seen whether the multinational companies would give us the inside track on their tax avoidance strategies. The companies at the centre of these allegations are based here and Ireland has been directly accused in the United States, Britain and elsewhere of facilitating aggressive tax avoidance by multinational companies. It defies belief that there does not appear to be a willingness to discuss increasing taxes on these companies when the country is beggared with taxation and austerity measures. That is bad enough but the fact that we cannot even talk about it-----

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the Deputy referring to raising corporation tax?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. It is beyond belief that we cannot discuss the issue and bring the people at the centre of this controversy before the sub-committee to ask them some questions.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have concluded our discussion of Deputy Pearse Doherty's motion. I ask Deputy Dara Murphy to propose the amendment.

Dara Murphy (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That the Sub-Committee on Global Taxation" and substitute the following:

"shall report to the Joint Committee following its consideration of evidence from the OECD; the Department of Finance; the Revenue Commissioners; the Minister for Finance, and other relevant taxation and academic experts on the global corporate/multinational taxation architecture and Ireland's relationship with that tax architecture. Such report to recommend, if it sees it as appropriate, as to further enquires and proposed witnesses."

No representative of a small company or large multinational should be put in a position of having to come to the House to discuss how it engages with our taxation system. To do so would create difficulties for the company from a competition point of view. It should be noted also that we are competing with other countries as we seek to attract multinational business.

Reference was made to part of a company that does not employ anyone in Ireland. The company in question employs 4,500 people, many of whom live in my constituency of Cork North Central and the Chairman's constituency. To add to Deputy Doherty's motion, essentially by having other named experts in international taxation appear before the sub-committee, would help members understand the issue and make recommendations to the joint committee on what actions it should take subsequently. It is important to have such clarity and I propose the amendment to this end.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will open the discussion to the floor.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In fairness to Deputy Dara Murphy, he has outlined a clear roadmap. It would be unbelievable if the sub-committee were to fail to do due diligence by having representatives of the OECD and Department of Finance, as well as the Minister for Finance, come before it. Such meetings would allow it to obtain a clear and comprehensive understanding of the issues, report back to the joint committee and, if appropriate, add additional witnesses. My greatest fear is that members will engage in a form of showboating. The sub-committee has work to do in carrying out distinct research and producing clear recommendations. If it is appropriate, we should have further witnesses come before either the full committee or the sub-committee once the latter has completed its work. I support the amendment.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I oppose Deputy Murphy's amendment for a number of reasons. To respond to Deputy Humphreys, there is no suggestion that we would speak to representatives of any multinational corporations before the Minister for Finance, officials from the Department of Finance, Revenue Commissioners and OECD and academic experts have appeared before the sub-committee. It is proposed to have these witnesses appear first and thereafter representatives of the multinational companies would come before the sub-committee. Despite the fact that I have been very open in stating I want representatives of some of the multinational companies that have been named in various hearings to come before the sub-committee, I would also like representatives of multinational companies that have not been accused of anything to come before us.

To get to the nub of the issue, the joint committee has asked a sub-committee to do a report on corporation tax as it applies to multinational companies. The origin of this request was the motion the joint committee passed in November. The sub-committee's hearings can be structured and shaped in different ways. International issues arise regarding companies located in Ireland which are aggressively involved in evading tax. That is the reality. We are now asking a sub-committee to do a report without allowing it to question any multinational company before the report is submitted to the joint committee. If we proceed with this approach, the process will be a farce.

All of us wish to protect jobs and I agree with Deputy Dara Murphy's comments on the need to do so. Sinn Féin does not seek an increase in corporate tax but we must deal with realities. We know there are two companies which are incorporated in Ireland and not tax resident in this State or anywhere else in the world. One of them does not have any employees in the State and even if we were to raise corporation tax to the roof, we would not get any money from it because it does not pay a cent of tax here or elsewhere in the world. This is at a time when people are being put to the pin of their collar by cuts and austerity.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would like to support Deputy Dara Murphy's amendment. It has been suggested that the sub-committee does not want to bring in multinational corporations and is blocking that in some way. I wrote to the Chairman recently to request the establishment of this sub-committee. My attempts to gain a position on my own committee were unsuccessful, but I will be there for all of the hearings. Having requested the sub-committee's establishment, I do not doubt that multinational corporations will be brought in at some point. I agree with Deputy Pearse Doherty that multinational corporations are experts in a kind of tax avoidance. We need to be very clear in public session about the difference between evasion and avoidance.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Correct. Hear, hear.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One is legal and the other is illegal. We are talking here about tax avoidance. Deputy Murphy's proposal was agreed by this committee in private session. It is regrettable that we are back discussing it in public session. It was very clearly agreed - this is laid out in Deputy Murphy's amendment - that this would be a multi-phase piece of work. We agreed that the first thing we would do is understand exactly how the system works. We said we would listen to independent parties that would be able to lay out for the sub-committee and therefore for the joint committee the mechanics of the different types of international laws in Ireland and abroad that are potentially being used for tax avoidance. We agreed that after we had completed this phase of our work and compiled a report on it, and ensuring the full joint committee and potentially the Oireachtas had been given time to digest the report, we would move into the next phase of the process, during which the multinational corporations as a group would be brought in. For me, there is no question of trying to avoid bringing multinational corporations before this committee or before the sub-committee. I think Deputy Murphy's proposal sets out the most sensible way to proceed. The process he has proposed for meeting the multinational corporations is the process that would best equip us to engage with them. I would like to support the amendment tabled by the Deputy.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Before I put the question, I would like to contribute to this debate. I find it regrettable that we are back here this afternoon. Having listened to the tapes, I have reaffirmed my interpretation of what happened in private session. At last week's select committee meeting, different people put a different interpretation on what was agreed. We are here this afternoon to clarify the interpretation of that first meeting. It has been mentioned that committees in other jurisdictions have compiled their own reports. They have done so for their own reasons, in particular, their own national reasons. Any work that will be done by this committee will be done for our own reasons. We will not react in a crisis-driven way to reports coming out of other jurisdictions. Our work will suit our purpose.

I can summarise what was agreed the first time we discussed this in private session by referring to a point I made on that occasion. If one wants to discuss the offside rule because there are accusations that companies are playing offside, one should bring in FIFA and UEFA rather than Manchester United or Chelsea. That was the point I made at the time. However, the purpose of this meeting is to clarify what the select committee should do. We are back here this afternoon on that basis. We have covered this issue at length. We are all very busy. I am busy and my colleagues are busy. There is a certain level of frustration about the downtime, as I call it, which is involved in having to go over background work that has been done already. This work was done and agreed, but we are back here this evening to clarify it. On that basis, we need to give final and utter clarification on the work of the select committee. In keeping with Standing Orders, I propose that Deputy Dara Murphy's amendment to Deputy Pearse Doherty's motion be agreed. Is that agreed? I believe the motion has been carried.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Vótáil.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Vótáil.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will move to Deputy Boyd Barrett's motion.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I move:

That the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform sub-committee on global corporate multi-taxation architecture shall as part of its terms of reference invite into the committee to give testimony and answer questions representatives of multinational corporations based here in Ireland, including representatives of Apple, Google, Facebook and other such corporations as the sub-committee may deem appropriate.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When did I say that?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was a comment in earlier discussions.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Today?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, I did not make any such comments.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Chairman made reference to a crisis situation.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is the third time-----

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am the only person you interrupt.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You have been incorrect three times this afternoon. You are now reading alleged comments from me into the record that were not made. Please be measured in your comments.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are facing a crisis in this country.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Deputy withdraw the comment he alleged earlier?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What comment?

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He intimated that I made a suggestion earlier, which I did not. Is the Deputy correct or incorrect?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Chairman made a statement earlier relating to the issue of inviting multinationals when in a crisis situation. I cannot remember the exact wording.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If the Deputy cannot remember it, please do not quote me.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I paraphrased the Chairman.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, you did not.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, the Deputy was incorrect.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did. We can read the record and see what the Chairman said.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I can tell you what I said. I stated this committee will not be crisis-driven.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. That is the exact comment. That was in the context of a discussion of whether we should bring in representatives of multinationals. We should be crisis-driven because our public finances are in the most severe crisis they have ever faced.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How stands the motion. Is the Deputy pressing it?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am pressing it.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the motion agreed?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will move on to the motion in the name of Deputy Joe Higgins. I call Deputy Boyd Barrett to move the motion on behalf of Deputy Higgins.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I move:

That the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform sub-committee on global corporate multi-taxation architecture shall invite in chief executive officers and other appropriate senior executives of multinational corporations and financial institutions to give information and answer questions in public session on their company's taxation policies and procedures.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Before we vote on the motion, I wish to speak in support of it. At least one speaker who voted against the previous two motions has suggested that it is the intention of the sub-committee to bring in the multinationals. Let me be clear, if we vote against this motion, the view of the committee is that no multinationals are to be brought in at this stage. It will be an option that could be a recommendation of a report when published but the committee will not be able to request multinationals to appear before it prior to it concluding its work and reports to the joint committee.

There is the famous phrase, "who fears to speak". The question for this committee is: "Who fears to ask?". We appear to be paralysed by fear in terms of asking questions of multinational companies. In my view, what we are doing is holding an inquiry or hearings into multinational corporation tax but not inviting in the main players to ask them questions. This is the equivalent of having a banking inquiry without inviting in the bank officials. Can anyone imagine if this committee were tasked with holding the banking inquiry and it decided to invite in the Ministers present on the night, the regulator and, perhaps, the-----

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is moving into-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please allow me to finish.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Chairman may not like what I am saying but I am entitled to say it.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy must be in order.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am in order. I am drawing comparisons between-----

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is making prejudgments.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am drawing comparisons between what is about to be agreed at this committee and what has been agreed under the last two motions, which would be the equivalent of a banking inquiry inviting in the architects, including the regulator, Minister for Finance and other Ministers present on the night of the bank guarantee and publishing a report which may include a recommendation to invite in the banks. That is exactly what this committee is doing here today. In my view, it is ridiculous that we are having a discussion on multinational corporation tax and this committee is so paralysed with fear it will not even suggest that we ask questions of any multinational company, which information they have voluntarily and willingly given to other parliaments in other jurisdictions.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will allow a brief response from Deputies Kevin Humphreys and Dara Murphy.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Had the motions been agreed, it would have been the equivalent of engaging in a banking inquiry without first doing the necessary preparation work. What is proposed is that the committee undertake the preparatory work first and then consider who it might be necessary to invite in. We are all aware of the conversation around people showboating and so on in a banking inquiry. What is proposed is that adequate research would be carried out before proceeding. The sub-committee needs to do its preparatory work first and then take the matter further.

Dara Murphy (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We stand by what was agreed earlier, which was also that which was agreed at a previous meeting. There is no suggestion, nor should there be, of any wrongdoing by any multinational conducting its business in this country. The OECD, which will shortly appear before the new committee, is conducting an international investigation into the global tax infrastructure. We will be able to question and report on that basis. This issue has been addressed on so many occasions, we are now going around in circles.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have agreed to conclude at 3.50 p.m. I ask members to be succinct in their commentary on these issues, which have already been spoken to. It was agreed in private session that we would conclude following debate on the motion before us. Members have chosen to breach what was agreed earlier.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have made most of my points so I will be brief. Some of us believe that we are talking about wrongdoing. However one defines it, aggressive tax avoidance by large multinationals is wrong. Whether or not it is illegal is of secondary interest to me and, I suspect, to the majority of people both here and abroad. People think it is morally wrong that corporations can make obscene profit levels and pay little or no tax, when ordinary people are screwed to the wall. That is why this is a very important issue for people. Some of us believe that addressing this issue is the key to dealing with the European and global economic crisis. Not everybody agrees with that but some of us happen to believe it.

This Government has defended a lot of its actions in recent times on the basis of safeguarding, improving and rehabilitating our international reputation. Both the Government and Fianna Fáil are opposing us on this matter but our international reputation has been seriously damaged by the allegation that we are operating as a tax haven to facilitate aggressive corporate tax avoidance by these multinationals. Our reputation is being further damaged by the refusal of this committee to even bring these guys in for questioning. We are on our knees before these people.

This is my last point. I wish to pass my condolences to Deputy Higgins on the death of his mother. However, if he were here I know he would say that this is an example of the dictatorship of the corporate markets. That is what it is and I do not think we should submit to that dictatorship. I know Deputy Higgins would say that if he were here.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We must vacate this room by 3.50 p.m. and get ready for the Minister's arrival at 4 p.m.

I now call Deputy Mary Lou McDonald followed by Deputy Stephen Donnelly, Deputy Michael McGrath and myself to conclude the vote. The Deputies will have three minutes each.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will be brief. I wish to convey my condolences to Deputy Higgins. I was not aware that he had lost his mother.

Nobody has suggested that the due diligence to which Deputy Kevin Humphreys referred would not be done. It is self-evident that the OECD and other bodies must be questioned to ascertain information from them. Anybody who happens to be watching this session will simply have reconfirmed for them the state of paralysis and denial within the Irish political system. Anybody tuning in would quite rightly ask why the multinationals are not being brought in. Without prejudice to what they might say, I do not wish to make a judgment on guilt or innocence, or on the extent of tax avoidance or otherwise. This has been a matter of international public concern. If we wanted to make a show of weakness on behalf of Oireachtas committees, members have done that quite magnificently here today.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will be brief, but I want to respond because some strong language is being thrown around. There are suggestions that people are trying to protect multinationals and that members of this committee are afraid of questioning them. As someone who wrote to the Chairman and asked for this sub-committee to be established, I am certainly not afraid of asking questions of any multinational corporations in Ireland. I doubt if any members of this committee are afraid of doing so. This is not about protecting multinationals or being afraid of them, it is a procedural issue. The motion that Deputy Dara Murphy tabled, which is what we agreed in private session, is that we would do this in the most sensible and effective way.

I only wanted to respond to some strong language that is being thrown around to the effect that members of this committee are somehow afraid of doing the good work of the Oireachtas. Unfortunately, this sort of thing will make it more difficult for the sub-committee to do what it needs to do. This committee has shown - for example, by inviting in the public interest directors - that people with a wide variety of backgrounds and different political views are capable of working together towards a common consensus. Once we fully understand this complicated set of international taxation laws and movements of money, it is my intention to request that this committee should bring in the multinationals. It is a question of process.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will be brief. I spoke on this matter when the sub-committee met and my views have not changed. I agree with virtually everything Deputy Donnelly has said. As far as I am concerned, the focus of the sub-committee's work is on policy issues. It is dealing with taxation architecture, the corporation tax code in Ireland as it relates to multinationals, and the relationship between our taxation system and others. Those are the key issues.

The taxation relationship between the Irish State and individual multinationals is managed by the Revenue. Therefore, direct contact between the State and multinationals on tax issues is channelled through the Revenue Commissioners. I am not ruling out asking the multinationals in at a later date, but we need to do our work first. Once we get down to it, we will quickly distil it down to the key issues. Most of us with a cursory knowledge of the subject know what the key issues are, so let us get into it as soon as possible, and deal with the individual companies later.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have one final item of business before we suspend the meeting prior to the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan's, arrival at 4 p.m. At the last meeting of the select committee in private session, I proposed that we would seek to appoint a resource consultant to help this committee to commence its work. Is that agreed?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that for the select committee or the sub-committee?

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is the resource worker who will do research and help us to put together some material.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can I ask one question? I accept that we have now made a decision on the multinationals. Outside the issue of the multinationals, is it still open to the sub-committee to make other suggestions not related to multinationals?

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No. We have got our terms of reference now. My goodness me, that is why we are here this afternoon. This is the third time we have had a meeting on this. I do not want to collapse this committee but if I get this nonsense in the select committee I will collapse it.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you for listening to me, Chairman.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I propose that we suspend the meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.