Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Wednesday, 3 July 2013

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade

National Action Plan on UN Security Council Resolution 1325: Discussion

2:30 pm

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Today we discuss the implementation of Ireland's national action plan on UN Security Council Resolution 1325 on Women, Peace and Security. On behalf of all the members of the joint committee, I welcome Ms Liz McManus, chairperson of the 1325 Monitoring and Evaluation Group and the other members of the delegation, Mr. Brian Glynn, Director of the conflict resolution unit at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Ms Melanie Hoewer, a member of the 1325 Monitoring and Evaluation Group from UCD and Ms Carol Ballantine also a member of the 1325 Monitoring and Evaluation Group.

Ms Liz McManus served in this House and I had the privilege of serving with her for many years. We were all very disappointed when she decided to retire from politics. It is good to see there is another life outside of politics for all of us. Ms McManus is doing very good work for the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in her current role. The 1325 Monitoring and Evaluation Group was established to track the implementation of Ireland's National Action Plan on UN Security Council Resolution on Women, Peace and Security. The national action was launched by the Tánaiste and the former President of Ireland, Mary Robinson in November 2011. It sets out the way that Ireland will promote and implement the objectives of the UN Security Resolution 1325 in its programme support activities, diplomatic advocacy and policy making across the interrelated areas of peace, security and development. In May, the midterm review of the plan was completed by independent consultants who identified the progress that has been made to date and the challenges that still need to be met within the remaining 18 months of the plan. This is an important and timely meeting as there is 18 months remaining before the next plan. We are very pleased that Ms McManus will make a presentation.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity, by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I invite Ms McManus to make her presentation.

Ms Liz McManus:

I thank the Chairman and members for enabling us to come before the joint committee very soon after the interim report was published. We really appreciate that in spite of its very busy agenda the committee has made time for us. I thank members for receiving us. It is strange to be on the other side of the table.

Mr. Brian Glynn:

I can be relatively brief following that comprehensive presentation. I will give members an opportunity to ask some questions. I would like to concentrate on a brief exposé on how we got to have our national action plan, as well as say a few words on what is in the mid-term progress report and how the Department plans to implement it. I have a few statistics to indicate where the aid budget is being allocated in the area of women, peace and security.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1325 was adopted in October 2000. It was considered ground-breaking at the time. It was the first time that the unique role played by women in conflict and the effects of conflict on women had been recognised.

2:50 pm

Ms Liz McManus:

For the record, I did not bully him. He was joking.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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It is great to see the relationship between the politician and the civil servant is flourishing. It is important for all of us on this side of the table as well. I thank Mr. Glynn for his kind remarks on that area.

Ms Liz McManus:

He is worse.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We are delighted that gender balance is at the top of Irish Aid's agenda; it is our focus also. When members travel abroad we like to visit areas in which we might have a participation while always conscious of gender-based violence as well. The statistics from Irish Aid are interesting and need to be put into the public domain more widely. We know Irish Aid are conscious of that.

It is clear Ms McManus and her team have worked extremely hard in recent months. It has consulted widely with the various groups that are important in this area and we look forward to what is contained in the document when it is finalised.

Senator Norris is anxious to return to the Seanad. I welcome him back.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I thank the Chairman.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We are delighted to see him back here again. All of us send our best wishes to him for a speedy recovery and wish him well.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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The Chairman is most kind. I am doing very well and am very happy to be back, and to be a nuisance.

This committee and the Seanad have passed resolutions on violence against women in conflict in the Congo, for example, and so on. I am familiar with Resolution 1325. However, I find myself increasingly irritated by the phrase "gender-based violence" because it is far too narrow, especially in sub-Sahara Africa and such places. Gay people are the most immediate target and young men and boys are consistently raped, whether they are gay or not. Then there is the appalling situation in places such as Uganda and a majority of sub-Saharan African countries where homosexuality is still a criminal offence. Regrettably, very vulnerable people are being made political scapegoats. It is not a revulsion or an understanding of gay people; it is just that they are convenient. They are as convenient as the Jews were in Germany. The shocking aspect is that they are being assisted, and there is strong collaboration, between the main Christian churches and they should be denounced for that. If there is any central control in those churches they should be firmly told that. Why do we not say that to the Papal Nuncio, Monsignor Brown? That is a political office. We should tell him we are not having that. We are not having pronouncements from the Vatican any more. We have a good Pope. He has been marvellous so far with the poor. I hope he will learn a bit about gay people but it is not appropriate for a state, and the Vatican purports to be a state, to give support or even half-hearted objections to vicious regimes.

When taking gender-based violence into account it should be extended. We should have the courage to say the most vulnerable people now include gay people who are the bottom of the pile and people like David Kato who I met in Dublin Castle with the Front Line Defenders who are wonderful. We can be so proud of the organisation Mary Lawlor set up but within six months of that, David Kato was savagely destroyed as a result of front page headlines in the newspapers identifying him, with the support of the Christian churches. It was truly shocking. I hope that will be included in the witnesses' brief and that they will try to expand it to take in gay people.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Does Ms McManus wish to comment on that?

Ms Liz McManus:

I will ask the other two representatives to speak but I would say that we are governed by our brief, and our brief is determined by Resolution 1325, and we cannot change those terms. Much as we would have sympathy, and it is a crucial point, we have a particular focus. Ms Ballantine and Ms Hoewer might like to comment generally.

Ms Melanie Hoewer:

I thank the Senator for the contribution and highlighting pressing issues, particularly the area of conflict resolution. Senator Norris rightly outlined the problem of rape not only of women, but also of boys and men. However, the development of the brief of UN Security Resolution 1325 is taking into consideration, particularly when we look at peace tables and decision-making processes, the vast imbalance in terms of men represented around the table and, in most cases, no women. That is the kick-off for the UN Security Council Resolution 1325 process.

Senator Norris mentioned the concept of gender-based violence. Conceptual thinking is wider in that respect but it is very often used as violence against women, etc. However, academic research has widely acknowledged that it is violence against men and women, and the inequality in the structures we are working in, that are the main problem. That must be addressed also.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Brendan Smith. I ask members to ask short questions rather than make Second Stage speeches.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I join the Chairman in welcoming Ms McManus and her colleagues and thank them for their presentation. In her introductory remarks Ms McManus mentioned the mass rape in Syria. We have had presentations to the committee and elsewhere in the Oireachtas on that. Mass rape as a weapon of war in Syria is frightening, and the situation pertaining there is desperate.

With regard to Northern Ireland, some months ago I had correspondence from a number of women's groups and I arranged for the Foyle women's group to make a presentation at the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. Deputy Crowe and some of our other colleagues may have been present at that meeting. The picture they painted for us was a very difficult one in terms of the desperate situation confronting many individuals and families, particularly women. It will be unfortunate if the Six Counties, Northern Ireland, again becomes a no-man's-land that does not come under any country's Resolution 1325 policy.

Ms McManus will recall that for the best part of 20 years when policy was being developed and issues addressed regarding the North of Ireland there were common chapters in some policy documents. There might be some way of having a common chapter in the British Resolution 1325 policy, and in the Irish one, but under no circumstances should Northern Ireland be left out. Unfortunately, there are many difficulties in Northern Ireland. Some of it may be confined to areas of huge disadvantage, particularly in the loyalist communities and also in some of the Nationalist communities. It is an area in which any policy initiative that can be taken should be taken. I hope Ms McManus might be able to address it from the point of view of ensuring, as she mentioned earlier, that it will not be ignored because the presentations were made to us, and correspondence I have from individuals and groups painted anything but a rosy picture for some communities and families, and women in particular.

With regard to-----

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Does Ms McManus want to comment on that?

Ms Liz McManus:

We are keen to do what we can. It would be very helpful if parliamentarians also pursued this through the interparliamentary bodies wherever possible. This committee has a role, as well as the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement, but it is an issue that needs to be progressed. One of the actions we will take is a thematic conference to be held in the autumn, which I hope all or some of the members can attend, on Resolution 1325. There will be a session solely on Northern Ireland. I do not know if the Deputy is aware that there is a group within the Assembly promoting Resolution 1325. I understand it is a cross-party group. Again, we have not made contact with it yet but we will be doing so.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to the Irish programme, in partner countries and where other donor countries are working is there co-ordination among the different programmes to ensure we are optimising the return, the experience gained and what can be achieved?

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for his co-operation.

Ms Carol Ballantine:

I thank the Deputy for the question. It is crucial. I work for Trócaire and as part of my role with Trócaire I also sit on the group, the Irish Joint Consortium on Gender Based Violence.

3:00 pm

Photo of Seán CroweSeán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses. With regard to the report I take it to be a whole of government approach. There is a big difficulty with this and I wish the witnesses well. How is progress monitored and assessed? It is a difficult question. The North was mentioned and it is being excluded although I do not understand why. In the North support programmes exist to promote women's participation in conflict prevention, peacekeeping, peace negotiations, peace building and post-conflict transition. It sounds good and we all support it, but the reality is that a woman who is an ex-combatant and who has served time in jail will face discrimination with regard to access to a job. Under new legislation being introduced in this State if such a person applies for a taxi licence he or she will have difficulty. We say we want women involved but the State has established structures which prevent women from getting involved. We say we want them involved, but only at a certain level or a certain distance. This is a difficulty and I do not know how to get around it. If we sign up to this but introduce laws which discriminate against the involvement of such women it is a contradiction. I am interested to hear how the witnesses will respond.

Ms Liz McManus:

Deputy Crowe has made a very interesting point. If Northern Ireland had a national action plan it might have had a different result. I have no idea because we have not reached this point. We cannot direct anybody to produce a national action plan but we can encourage. Nowhere needs an action plan more than Northern Ireland because of its experience. There is a great body of experience and knowledge which could be put to good use if we could do so, and I ask Deputy Crowe to encourage in Northern Ireland a positive attitude towards ensuring a national action plan is developed there. It could be a purely Northern Ireland project or a project within the UK. Somebody needs to drive it in the Assembly and it would be very helpful if it is led from the top. We will be able to report next time we come before the committee, if we have such an opportunity, on what progress we have made. Having a national action plan is a politically driven project. It is our brief to monitor its implementation when it is delivered.

Photo of Seán CroweSeán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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It is not just in the North but also in this State. Ex-prisoners face difficulties in the adoption process. They also face huge difficulties when applying for a job. To get a job in this building one must have Garda clearance. Men and women face barriers. We say one thing but tend to do the opposite. People spoke about making peace, creating a new society and involving these people, who have embraced the peace process, but as a society we do not tend to do so. There is a body of work to be done, not only in the North but also in this State and the witnesses could be part of the monitoring any whole of government approach. It would be helpful.

Why has it taken 18 months to decide who in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade is responsible for the survey on how civilian women regard their treatment by peacekeeping personnel and when will a decision be made? When can we expect a pilot survey?

Mr. Brian Glynn:

Some of the indicators in the national action plan are for a number of Departments to implement. The one referred to by Deputy Crowe was a specific one relating to asking civilians in areas where we have peacekeepers abroad to participate in a survey on how they perceive the peacekeepers to be operating. During the 18 month period the Defence Forces were not deployed in sufficient numbers. They had just started in Lebanon at that stage and there simply was not time to do it. As part of our ongoing contact with the Defence Forces we hope to do it on the assumption they remain there for a period of time. They need to be there for sufficient period of time before a survey can be conducted.

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Ms McManus; it is good to see her, even on the other side of the room. Life after politics is not entirely outside politics.

It has been recognised that rape is used routinely as a weapon of war, and this makes it essential that women's sexual and reproductive health is prioritised in any emergency or humanitarian response. The indicator for this action is that all relevant organisations, including civil society organisations supported by the Irish State, have guidelines and policies in place on preventing and responding effectively to gender-based violence and sexual exploitation and assault and on addressing sexual and reproductive health. To what extent do we know whether these are part of the organisations' policies and strategies? To what extent are they implemented? I am sure I am not the only one who has expressed some reservations about the fact so many NGOs are religious-based organisations and may have problems implementing what are strategies of the State which fund these organisations.

Ms Carol Ballantine:

The Deputy is asking to what extent NGOs have in place policies on women's sexual and reproductive health-----

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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And are implementing them.

Ms Carol Ballantine:

I can speak only on behalf of the NGO for which I work, which is Trócaire, which is church based. We are speaking in particular about conflict situations, which often involve humanitarian responses. Our organisation has somebody whose role is protection. Protection in humanitarian responses generally involves the protection of human rights, and has a particular emphasis on women and children because they tend to be the most vulnerable. This would involve post-rape care and responses to sexual violence. With regard to church limitations, there are clear church guidelines on contraception.

3:10 pm

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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No, I do not follow. My precise concern is that contraceptives would be made available to women whose supply chains had been disrupted by conflicts. This is an important aspect.

Ms Carol Ballantine:

Excuse me.

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps I have misunderstood Ms Ballantine.

Ms Carol Ballantine:

No. It is not my area of expertise, which is why I am struggling to give a clear answer. I realise that a clear answer is required. I am sorry, as I am struggling to-----

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Ms Ballantine is fine. Perhaps Deputy Mitchell should ask her second question.

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The indicator refers to sexual and reproductive health. I wonder to what extent this is being responded to by church-based organisations.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I suggest that Ms Ballantine forward information to the committee at a later stage.

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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That would be acceptable.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We realise that this is not Ms Ballantine's area of expertise. She cannot have instant answers for us. Perhaps someone would send answers to the Deputy's questions to the committee's clerk. Does the Deputy have a second question?

Ms Carol Ballantine:

I am keen not to kick the question to touch.

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I accept that Ms Ballantine might not have the answer straight away. The matter could be a source of concern and I am anxious to get an answer.

Ms Melanie Hoewer:

May I make a general point?

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Ms Melanie Hoewer:

I cannot discuss the practice directly, as church-based organisations engaging in assistance and development aid in post-conflict areas or societies in transition is not my area of expertise either. Within the agenda of addressing gender-based violence, there is a major concern about women in conflicts. Deputy Mitchell has rightly outlined that there is a problem with the supply chain. Organisations like Oxfam are trying to address these issues.

In some ways, there is a problem with addressing the issue of reproductive rights, but the larger issue is addressing women's issues generally in post-conflict situations. For example, just getting rape as a weapon of war on the agenda has proven to be a significant problem. Reproductive rights fall into this general category, but we need to work harder to have all of the issues addressed. I acknowledge the limitations of aid organisations in this context, but considerable progress has been achieved, particularly since 2000, in addressing gender-based violence, particularly the concerns and needs of women post conflict. There is still much to do. Otherwise, we would not be present.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I invite Mr. Glynn.

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Very briefly-----

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, but Mr. Glynn wishes to make a remark.

Mr. Brian Glynn:

I would be happy to forward information on what Irish Aid does in this regard. Extensive material is available.

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I am aware of Irish Aid's policy. As so much of it is implemented through the non-governmental organisations, NGOs, it is important that they be on side.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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What is the Deputy's second question?

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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In the making of the original national action plan, my and Ms McManus's former colleague, the current Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, made a representation that was never taken up suggesting that the Army, which has some expertise in training troops in addressing gender-based violence, could be used to train UN forces that were responding to emergencies. Would our guests recommend this for the next plan?

Ms Liz McManus:

It is an interesting one. We will certainly consider it.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Our guests will revert to us on the matter.

Photo of Eric ByrneEric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I welcome Ms McManus. We shared the same side of the table for many years. We are on different sides this time - me as the parliamentarian and her as the former Minister of State - but life goes on.

I downloaded the document. It is fascinating reading, but I did not complete it, as it was just too bulky. The two women who wrote the report did a spectacular job. Having said that, it is ironic that the group was informed by the innovative cross-learning initiative incorporating Northern Ireland and East Timor, yet Northern Ireland does not have a national action plan. We can take this matter up and have it corrected.

I have always been fascinated by how the West, including Ireland through Irish Aid and development programmes, treats the women of other cultures. The sexual connotation has been raised at these meetings by Senator Norris and Deputy Mitchell. How is the conflict between the cultures handled? It may be religious, given the culture of Catholicism in the missionaries that Irish Aid funds in the field. One hears of the concerns of homosexual communities and women in general. A lesbian explained to the committee that the churches were most unsympathetic. Right across the board in Africa, even in South Africa, gays and lesbians are discriminated against. We provide Christian aid through Irish Aid, Trócaire and the missionaries, which are supposedly protecting women not just in conflict areas, but in the development field. How is this religious content married with the cultural content of what we seem to argue is brutality, for example, female genital mutilation? Some of us could claim that the Jewish and Muslim practice of circumcision could be deemed barbaric in certain forms. In the Muslim community, there are the questions of the burka, the conflict in the Sahel region, women being put into pits to be stoned to death because of "adultery" and Sharia law, which is barbaric in some of its forms of interpretation.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We will ask our guests to answer that question.

Photo of Eric ByrneEric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Bear with me. I want to tease out this important document.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but I need to get answers.

Photo of Eric ByrneEric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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It has important aims. We are funding agencies in many programme countries, and not just in conflict areas where women are considered "comfort women", as the Japanese delegation outrageously called it when appearing before the committee a few weeks ago. The new nationalism of Japan seems to indicate that women should be used for the comfort of soldiers in war-like situations.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I will call the Deputy again.

Photo of Eric ByrneEric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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In the context of cultures and religion, how do our guests address women's issues?

Mr. Brian Glynn:

When we approach all of these issues, we start with the context. We engage in a process that considers conflict sensitivity. A conflict in Rwanda and a conflict in Malaysia will be different, as there are different local contexts. Someone entering the context must start with the principle of doing no harm and work up from there. An intervention might not be along the lines of what one would like to achieve, that is, to have that society mirror ours more closely. One should work to find something between the two.

There have been some unfortunate legislative proposals before the Parliament in Uganda. As Western donors, we can choose to withdraw, possibly allowing the situation to get worse. As a significant donor in a country like Uganda, one has influence. If one withdraws completely, one has no influence and the situation that one wants to improve could get worse. This is our perspective when dealing with these issues around the world.

Ms Liz McManus:

Ms Hoewer might wish to reply.

Ms Melanie Hoewer:

Deputy Byrne correctly recognised that many of the conflicts that we deal with today, including Northern Ireland, are not just situated in different cultures, but also have an ethno-national nature. Cultural rights are fought for, within which context women's rights are often pushed to the sidelines. From a policy making point of view as well as an academic and activist one, we must be aware that there are different forms of existence in the world. Women are not equal - they are different and live in different situations. However, this can never be an excuse for not taking an individual woman's rights, as manifested in various international documents, into consideration.

From an academic perspective, I support the strategy chosen by Irish Aid and many aid agencies, through which they consider the responsibility for creating space for dialogue.

3:20 pm

Photo of Eric ByrneEric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Events in Egypt are a very interesting example. We speak of the Security Council resolution of the United Nations on the violations of women's human rights, but a Muslim man would like to know how the United Nations interprets the woman's human rights. I do not know to what extent this international United Nations policy document on the specific issue of violations of women's human rights is interpreted internationally. Our definition of abuse of a woman's human rights can be very different from that of other signatories to the UN charter.

I thank Ms Hoewer for her detailed response to the question.

Ms Liz McManus:

This is not tangential to Deputy Byrne's points. One of the key issues must be women's empowerment in terms of mediation and peace brokering. Women are so often excluded. If women are in that process and have power in it one can then see considerable progress but the reality is that rarely happens. If one looks at the example in Northern Ireland, the women's coalition was very effective, although those involved got terrible abuse. To be fair, other parties tried their best to include women. In many parts of the developing word, where there is conflict, women are powerless when it comes to political decision making. That must be of primary concern, because whatever about the cultural issues, if women are not there to argue their case, one is at a significant disadvantage. That is central to the work of the national action plan.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan was detained in the Chamber and has missed much of the discussion on a topic in which she is very interested.

Photo of Maureen O'SullivanMaureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I am sorry I was not present. None of the paperwork will be of any use unless it is seen to be having an effect on the ground. Some months ago I was asked by Trócaire to host a meeting when one of its workers from the Congo was in Ireland. This Congolese lady told us what was happening in the Democratic Republic of Congo, the DRC. We had the statistic that a woman is raped every 48 seconds. Ms Dearbhla Glynn showed us a clip from the film she had been making in the DRC, which won an award at the Irish Council for Civil Liberties a couple of weeks ago. The success of any policy in my view is when we see changes on the ground. Some of us have met another NGO who shared the concept of the jasmine tent, which is a safe space for women. They are looking for support from various countries for this concept and they hope to discuss it with Irish Aid. If people would agree to creating a safe space in war zones or conflict zones it would enable women to access whatever services they need, be it medical, psychological or social.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Do the witnesses want to comment on that contribution?

Ms Carol Ballantine:

I work with Trócaire and I was in the DRC last week. The Deputy is correct to say that the indicators in the national action plan which are recognised in the monitoring report are reasonably superficial and are actions rather than impacts. That is a necessity in something so new and the impact will be visible over time. It is not as visible in the current progress reports. It is interesting that Ms McManus mentioned the Women's Coalition in Northern Ireland. We visited the DRC with Ms Monica McWilliams who has recently joined the board of Trócaire to look at the work that is being carried out with women.

Let me give one very small concrete example of a women's peace committee which is working in the Ituri region of Orientale province, which is not at present in live conflict but was in serious conflict in the early 2000s, up to 2004-05. These peace committee members whom we met had identified the problems of local markets that go on late at night in the dark creating situations where women returning from the markets in the evenings were in great danger. It is a good example, as my colleague Ms Melanie Hoewer said, that the women came together and were able to identify the practical actions that can improve their lives. They set up a lobby to convince all the market traders and local authorities that markets should close at 5 p.m. before sunset. It is difficult. It does not hold because these are commercial opportunities and it is very hard for people to give up a commercial opportunity when one is living in poverty but there is a certain level of consensus and this is a significant advance. That is a concrete action that women have taken themselves with support from the Irish taxpayers. It is an example of the sort of impact that happens as a result of empowerment at a very local level. Tracking that takes the commitment that exists in the national action plan but it also takes a long-term ongoing commitment.

Ms Melanie Hoewer:

This highlights the importance of women's voices. The track record of aid agencies going into refugee camps shows that the choice of personnel plays a significant and crucial role. In some cultures there is a difficulty of male aid agency personnel talking to women. I recall a case in a situation I worked in that women did not get space to voice their concerns on sanitary installations such as bathrooms, which were subsequently located in isolated areas without any lighting. The incidence of rape was recurrent. That problem would have been solved very easily if both male and female aid workers had access to male and female refugees. Lessons have been learned from the aid programmes and I hope we will continue to learn from experience.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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How does one change the tribal customs and traditions in Africa? Is it difficult for the Masai tribe to change?

Ms Melanie Hoewer:

We cannot change it from the outside. I have been engaged in several research projects in recent years in which I have been amazed by what has happened as a result of the social mobilisation of women who have been actively involved as fighters in conflict. When they raise the issues internally, it gives a strength to the argument. Let me give the example of the Zapatista fighters in South Mexico. We met a delegation of women from Liberia who have been instrumental in raising their boys for peace and standing up and creating the space to not only address the issue of woman's exclusion, but moving towards peace and also addressing the issues they do not like about their own customs and traditions. That is the only way I see of making progress in changing culture and traditions. Of course, this is linked to a contact and dialogue on women's rights which is happening at international, regional and local level. Those voices are crucial.

Photo of Maureen O'SullivanMaureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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Last week at the AWEPA conference we had quite a number of African parliamentarians in the country, including women parliamentarians. They voiced strongly their concerns for their countries. There were some interesting discussions with them. Are the delegates working with and engaging with the women parliamentarians in the African countries?

Ms Liz McManus:

We do not have direct engagement because our job is to monitor the response of Irish organisations and what is happening in the Defence Forces, An Garda Síochána, Departments and so on.

3:30 pm

Photo of Seán CroweSeán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Another area at which the group might look is people being denied access to stay in the country. I know of one instance where someone who was gay was sent back to one of the countries about which we were talking and in which people might serve up to 14 years if caught with a partner. They are practical things at which we as a State can look. Most people would be horrified at the idea of someone being sent back to that environment but, as a State, that is what we are doing. We need to look at what we are doing before we look at anywhere else. Certainly, huge changes are needed throughout the world. This State holds itself up as a model but there is a lot more we can do.

Ms Melanie Hoewer:

That is important. Unfortunately, when we look at national action plans, most of the plans of the countries in the global north are outward looking. They look at what they do in developing countries, at what they can teach them, so to speak, or at bringing women's rights to them. We need to look internally also. For example, when we look at women affected by conflict, we need to look not only at Northern Ireland but also south of the Border where women affected by the conflict in the North of this island live as well. We also have women coming here from conflict countries. How are they cared for in refugee camps, etc.? The Deputy raised a very important issue.

Photo of Seán CroweSeán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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I also mentioned hostel accommodation.

Ms Carol Ballantine:

In response to Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan's point, a number of examples are quoted in the monitoring report of work being carried out directly with women parliamentarians. For example, in Sierra Leone, Irish Aid funds support parliamentary parties to impose gender quotas and ensure gender quotas are met. That work is going on as well.

Mr. Brian Glynn:

I would like to make one final comment, which is almost an aside from the report. Sometimes when one engages in a process of having a national action plan, one has this old fashioned notion that we in the West are developed, rich and know everything and, therefore, this is how we will apply these things in developing countries. In regard to the comment about women parliamentarians from Africa, the parliaments of many African countries have higher levels of women representation than we do, so there is a cross-learning process here. We could certainly learn from some of the things being done in Liberia and Timor Leste in terms of women's participation. I say that, I suspect, more as a citizen than as a civil servant but these are things which I have discovered, as I have been working on it for the past three and half years. Sometimes one tends to say to these countries, "Here is our blueprint", but when one looks at it, in some ways, they have done it better than we have.

Ms Liz McManus:

In regard to what Deputy Seán Crowe said, I am concerned about issues relating to the immigrant community here. Within the brief, we cannot deal with that whole issue but what we can do is to try to focus solely on women and girls coming from conflict areas. As a citizen, I have concerns about the point the Deputy made.

I thank the Chairman and the members for their generosity in terms of their time and questions. To be honest, I am a little overwhelmed by the fact they have given us so much time and have been so interested in this project. It gives us tremendous heart because sometimes when one mentions Resolution 1325, there is a glazing over of the eyes and people really do not want to know. I am very heartened by the fact the committee has been so generous.

I hope we can have some synergy and work together because we can learn from each other in regard to certain issues which have been raised today, including African parliamentarians, the situation in Northern Ireland and immigrant women, and we can also be more effective when working in our different spheres.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee. We had a very comprehensive presentation from all four witnesses and a most interesting and wide-ranging discussion. The members were in good form today and asked many comprehensive questions and questions relevant to what is in the plan. The group is obviously at mid-point in its plan and we look forward to ongoing dialogue with it in the future.