David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister for Defence and his officials to the meeting. The select committee will first hear a brief opening statement by the Minister following which there will be a questions and answers session. I remind members to ensure their mobile phones are switched off as they interfere with the broadcasting system.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I am pleased to appear before the select committee today and welcome the opportunity for positive engagement on all aspects of the Defence and Army Pensions Estimates for 2013. I propose to make a short opening statement, following which I will be happy to take questions from members.

The combined Estimates for Defence and Army Pensions for 2013 will provide for gross expenditure of €896 million. This compares with actual expenditure in 2012 of €901 million, which is effectively a €5 million reduction in the amount available for this year.

Over 74% of the Department of Defence Vote goes towards providing for the pay and allowances of some 9,500 Permanent Defence Force personnel, 655 civilians employees and 350 civil servants. It also provides for payments to members of the Defence Forces Reserve while on paid training. The non-pay element of the allocation is mainly for the replacement and maintenance of essential equipment and operational costs.

I have secured the agreement of Government to accept my recommendation to stabilise the strength of the Permanent Defence Force at 9,500 personnel. Within this strength ceiling, a major re-organisation of the Defence Forces was initiated which encompassed a reduction in the number of Army brigades from three to two. This has prioritised operational capability and re-deployed PDF personnel from administrative and support tasks to operational units. In addition, equipment procurement continues to be prioritised by Defence Forces operational requirements. This has all been achieved within the reduced resource envelope available to the Department of Defence.

Ireland is still playing its part on overseas missions and currently has 445 personnel serving on 12 overseas missions. This reflects the Government's continued commitment to our responsibilities in the area of international peace and security. The main overseas mission in which Defence Forces personnel are currently deployed is the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, with 357 personnel.

The Defence Forces continue to provide a military operational response to both the civil power and civil authorities as required at home. This work is of vital importance. For example, the explosive ordnance disposal teams responded to 209 call outs in 2012 and by the end of May 2013 had responded to 110 call-outs.

I recently had the opportunity to appear before the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality to discuss the significant progress that has been made in the implementation of the value for money review of the Defence Forces Reserve, since its publication in November 2012. A major re-organisation of the Reserve Defence Forces began in late 2012 and new organisational structures were brought into effect at the end of March 2013. The changes being implemented create the opportunity for improved interaction and support between the PDF and the RDF as well as enhancing overall capability. The re-organisation is now in the second phase of implementation which is due to be completed in September of this year and I look forward to seeing the process completed in its entirety.

From a strategic perspective, I intend to publish a new White Paper on Defence in spring 2014. The preparation of the new White Paper will benefit greatly from an informed and wide-ranging debate on Ireland's defence policy. In support of this process, I have initiated the preparation of a Green Paper on Defence which will assesses the defence and security environment, while also posing policy questions designed to guide the public consultation process. The Green Paper will be published shortly and I look forward to engaging and thoughtful deliberation on Ireland's future defence policy. A copy of the Green Paper will be furnished to this committee and I hope members will participate in the consultation process leading to the White Paper and I will be interested in any observations and proposals members of the committee might have to make. I want this to be an open and consultative engagement which substantively impacts on the White Paper when finally published. I am conscious the previous White Paper published at the start of the 2000s emerged without that sort of consultative process. I look forward to the committee considering the White Paper and before it engages in deliberations, I will be happy to give the committee an introduction to it. We could then return to it after members have considered it in detail. It is a matter for the committee if it would like to do that. The Green Paper will be published before the summer recess.

Finally, I would also like to refer to the Army Pensions Vote, and specifically to the increasing numbers and cost. Currently, there are just short of 12,000 pensioners of all categories paid by my Department under the Army Pensions Vote. Net expenditure on military pensions has increased by over 30% from 2007 to 2012. These increases arose mainly due to the rising numbers of military pensioners. While we are some way from the end of 2013 and the final number of retirements is not yet known, it is my intention that any shortfall arising on the Pensions Vote provision will be met from payroll and other savings on the Department of Defence Vote.

I commend both Estimates for Vote 35 and Vote 36 to the committee and look forward to dealing with any questions that arise.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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There are two Votes here, Vote 35 and Vote 36 on the Department of Defence and Army pensions. We will deal with Army pensions first and then come back to the other.

Anne Ferris (Wicklow, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for attending this meeting. On Vote 35, the appropriations-in-aid figure shows a net decrease of 12%. Any decrease is welcome but how did that come about?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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In the context of the appropriations-in-aid figure, the out-turn in 2012 was €5.940 million and it is estimated in 2013 we will be spending €6 million. That is a slight increase. The subhead essentially provides receipts by way of appropriations-in-aid to the Army pension fund under the following headings: contributions to spouses' and children's pensions scheme by officers, NCOs and privates, contributions to the Defence Forces contributory main pension scheme, recoveries of overpayments, payments received in respect of transfer of services. Contributions to pension schemes account for both the receipts under this subhead. The differentiation was a small decrease on the numbers in receipt of pensions that effected the savings the Deputy mentioned.

Anne Ferris (Wicklow, Labour)
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It relates to numbers of personnel?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Yes. It is impossible to predict who might pass away in any one year, which might impact on the figures. The Estimate is frequently higher in some instances than the out-turn. This year, the out-turn will be higher than the Estimate and that is where we must supplement from within the Department of Defence Vote for any additional expenditure that might have to be incurred. Effectively we are half way through the year and we do not have an insight into who might retire. This happens in both the Defence Forces and the Garda Síochána. There are individuals who may reach a point where they will get all or the substantial part of their pensions but they enjoy the job and stay on while others retire unexpectedly for health or family reasons. It is an inexact science trying to predict the number of retirements in any one year.

Anne Ferris (Wicklow, Labour)
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We are only half way through the year and it is hard to predict at this stage. I understand the out-turns and the Estimates but it is hard to predict the increases or decreases at this stage. It is no reflection on the Minister but it is not an exact science. It cannot be accurate at this stage.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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At the start of the year, we provide funding by way of an Estimate. To date this year, some 60 personnel have retired on a pension. This is below the expected level.

Anne Ferris (Wicklow, Labour)
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I meant overall in any Estimate.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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In dealing with retirement issues in particular, they cannot be predicted when dealing with the numbers in the Defence Forces. The number is affected by the number who may retire but at the appropriate moment we engage in recruitment and there will be recruitment this year, most likely in the second half of the year, to maintain strength. By the time we get through September, we will have a clear idea what the likely numbers will be at the end of the year. There are still three or four months left that are unpredictable but we have a fairly clear idea because of advance notice that people must give.

Anne Ferris (Wicklow, Labour)
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What is the average age of the personnel who retire?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It can vary. It is not unusual for people to retire after 15 or 20 years in the Defence Forces.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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On the 690 people who retired in 2012, how does that compare with the average annual number of retirements? Has there been a spike in retirements due to the reorganisation? The 60 retiring this year appears to be a small number when we consider the number in 2012. I am new to this process but I do not understand why civil servants working in the Defence Forces have pensions charged to the Department of Defence Vote rather than the Army pension Vote.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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There are historical reasons for that, it has been going on for some years.

Numbers are difficult. Some people retired in anticipation of budgetary decisions that might have affected their pension had they retired at a lesser stage. Under the financial framework in place, there is a 14 month leeway period before anyone will be impacted. In 2008 there were 276 retirements on pension, 425 in 2009, 427 in 2010, 498 in 2011, the period immediately after the 2010 budget, and in 2012 there were 597 retirements. That was a high figure and gives an insight into why only 60 people have retired so far this year. Some individuals who may have been due to retire in 2013 could have had some concerns because of constant speculation about the budget in 2012. Those people might have decided to retire because of that.

My view, and I may be proved wrong by the end of the year, is that is why there was a spike last year and a reduced number this year. People often make decisions in the second half of the year. That is why September and October will give us a better insight.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We will now move on to Vote 36, the Department of Defence.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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This is slightly more complicated. I acknowledge the manner in which the Defence Forces have adapted over more than a decade to the changing circumstances. Their continuing dedication to reform is admirable.

The Minister has signalled his intention when he publishes the Green Paper to move to a two brigade structure. What sort of savings will arise from that reorganisation? We can go back ten or 15 years when the Defence Forces had very poor equipment. One of the achievements of the 14 years the Minister loves to refer to was the substantial improvements in the quality and range of equipment available to the Defence Forces. Given we are now operating internationally in a completely different environment, are we still replacing equipment as required? Are we getting better value for money from the equipment?

It is quite frightening how regularly the explosive ordnance disposal unit is being called out. Can the Minister estimate the cost to the taxpayer of that increased number of call-outs?

I welcome the announcement of the date for the publication of the Green Paper. We all look forward to engaging with the Minister on it.

On the question of civilian employees in the Department of Defence, in the time I have had available to me, I have not been able to identify the levels of retirement among the civilian employees. What is the trend and what costs are there? In future, to what extent will civilians be employed to work along side Defence Forces personnel?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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There has been a substantial reduction in the number of civilian staff in the Department of Defence over recent years. In 2008, there were 409, in 2009 there were 375, in 2010 there were 353 and in 2011 there were 247. The number now stands at 349. That is a small number for an entire Department that administers a pay scheme for the Defence Forces and deals with all levels of policy issues, administrative matters and Dáil questions. It is an area that is not as visible as it should be because the media is not interested in it although it has a substantial engagement internationally and gives me great back-up in those areas. We have had a substantial engagement in defence matters since my appointment and that was heightened during the EU Presidency, not only in the informal meeting and the related arrangements in Dublin Castle, but also at relevant meetings of the External Action Service dealing with defence issues in Europe and meetings of the European Defence Agency. We held four separate international conferences on a series of issues during the Presidency. We had a top-level conference last Thursday in Brussels that brought together for the first time in the European Union both the justice and defence sides in the field of cybersecurity. Unfortunately that gets no media attention despite the importance of the issue. It gets substantial attention from departmental officials.

I have great admiration for all of my staff in the Department of Defence. They work long hours beyond the call of duty, frequently for no additional financial benefit. They carry an enormous policy agenda which means we are addressing all of the domestic issues with substantial work done, for example, in preparing the Green Paper. We are dealing with all the EU issues relating to the common security and defence policy.

We are also dealing with all the United Nations issues and our connectivity with 12 different UN missions. In addition, there is continuing interaction between the civil and military side. I am in the middle of all of this exciting and interesting work and I genuinely do not know how the small number of staff in the Department of Defence produces the output it does and manages to provide such top level engagement. There are European related meetings that officials attend and Ministers do not attend. The perspective in the European Union is that we are very much engaged in peacekeeping and humanitarian missions and trying to co-ordinate matters. For these reasons, we should all express a vote of thanks to the civil side in the Department. The military side is also doing a fantastic job.

The Deputy asked about the reorganisation. The savings across the Vote amount to approximately €13 million based on the reorganisation that is taking place. As members will note, the reduction in the funding available has declined by only €5 million since last year. This funding is being deployed in a manner that benefits and ensures capacity and operability in the Defence Forces.

On the issues of savings and equipment, one of the very good decisions that was made by previous Governments - the Deputy will be shocked to hear me praise the previous Government - was the decision to invest in Defence Forces equipment the money realised from the sale of barracks during the consolidation of barracks. This is being done very well and effectively and the Defence Forces are now very well equipped. Some of the equipment, which was obtained prior to my time in the Department with the valid objective of ensuring the Defence Forces were fit for purpose to engage in UN and other missions, is effectively redundant. An appraisal is being undertaken of the possibility of beneficially disposing of equipment which is still in good order but no longer required for the UN missions in which we engage or no longer relevant to any assistance the Defence Forces may give to the civil power. I am committed to ensuring we retain and have available to us the equipment we need to fulfil our functions internationally and domestically.

The reduction in the funding available to defence forces across Europe impacts on the Common Security and Defence Policy and capacity of European Union member states to participate in UN missions. One of the major debating points in Europe is how equipment can be acquired most effectively. For example, the Defence Forces are jointly engaged with the Finns in southern Lebanon. UN missions always involve a number of nations being engaged in a particular project. One of the issues we discussed in our seminar was how the European Union could more effectively operate as a group of EU states under the UN flag performing peacekeeping roles. One of the areas of great interest in this area is the pooling and sharing of resources. Where one is engaged in international missions, including UN peacekeeping missions, there is no point in two or three states working together when they all have available to them a particular resource and there is a gap in another area because none of them has a resource that is required for missions. For example, the availability of helicopters for UN missions appears to be an issue of difficulty on occasions.

In dealing with equipment issues and co-ordinating what we can do at UN level under the EU umbrella, there are savings to be made in the future in pooling and sharing resources and identifying niche areas. One of our niche areas is the neutralisation of improvised explosive devices and ensuring we have what we need in that area. If we are on a joint mission with another state, it may not be necessary for it to have expertise in that area and it could supplement our expertise in a different area. Pooling and sharing of equipment is an important issue.

In the context of the specific allocation for defence equipment in 2013, a sum of €2 million has been allocated for the purchase of force protection equipment and a further €3 million has been allocated for the upgrade and modification of 6,000 current in-service Steyr rifles. Funding is also being provided for the commencement of a replacement programme for the heavy machine gun used by the Defence Forces. In addition, €60 million has been allocated for the continued acquisition of various categories of ammunition. In the context of ammunition stocks, there may be some ammunition that is past its use-by-date but was required for legitimate reasons.

On explosive ordinance, I am conscious of this matter from the Garda side as well as the Army side. There has been an increase in the number of incidents and occasions on which the Defence Forces have been asked to assist the civil power. There was a time when work in this area was essentially confined to terrorist subversives who presented themselves as patriots. Some of the explosive ordinance currently being dealt with has been acquired by criminal gangs who have been assisted by some of the subversive organisations. This is dangerous work which is done with great skill. At European level, Ireland is recognised as having a substantial skill-set in this area and these skills are used to train others on how to neutralise these types of devices internationally in various areas.

To give an insight into the current position, the number of call-outs of Army bomb disposal units was 198 in 2010, 237 in 2011 and 209 in 2012. We are only halfway through 2013 and we had 110 such call-outs by the end of May. It may be the case, therefore, that the figure will increase this year. Incidentally, it is interesting to note the statistic showing that 64 of the 237 call-outs in 2011 were hoaxes. These usually involved the Garda validly bringing in the Defence Forces to deal with a device and it subsequently transpired that it was not a device. A total of 70 of the devices were viable.

While fewer call-outs were made in 2012, the number of hoax call-outs was also lower. Of the 209 call-outs that year, 50 were hoaxes and 96 were viable devices. There was, therefore, an estimated 36 more viable devices in 2012 than in 2011. So far this year, 43 of the 220 call-outs have related to viable devices. While I hope it will not be the case, if the year continues as it has in the first five months, we can expect the number of call-outs to be between the figures recorded in 2011 and 2012, respectively.

The remaining balance of call-outs refers to either false alarms or post-blast analysis where something has occurred and the bomb disposal units are invited to examine the scene or conventional munitions disposal where old ordinance is found. The units also deal with what are known as substances of concern, for example, the disposal of pyrotechnics, fireworks and hazardous material. Some finds consist solely of arms and ammunition rather than improvised explosive devices. However, in cases where arms and ammunition are located, there is a concern that such devices may exist and the Defence Forces are called out for safety and precautionary reasons.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Minister clarify his comments on the number of civilian employees in 2012 and in the current year? On the issue of equipment, may I assume from the Minister's contribution that while he is pursuing innovative ways of reducing the overall cost of the State, the vagaries of the market, which affect many commodities, have not impacted on the cost of equipment that the Department-----

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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We are maintaining our equipment capabilities. One of the interesting issues being further considered on the civil and military side is the joint acquisition of equipment.

If we go into to the market as the Republic of Ireland looking for equipment for our Defence Forces, we may only need 30 or 35 vehicles of a particular type. However, if another state such as Sweden or Finland, for example, is acquiring similar vehicles, there is the potential to improve communications in that area so that a bulk order can be made, resulting in required necessary equipment - such as for UN peacekeeping operations - being somewhat cheaper. Larger orders can result in savings as against single orders placed by ourselves alone. We are looking at the possibility of saving money in the public interest, obviously, but it is also crucial that we maintain the capabilities of the Defence Forces and ensure they have the equipment they need to fulfil their duties.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Minister answer the question on civilians?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Civilian employees in barracks in 2012 numbered 593. The other number I gave earlier related to the number of civilian employees in the Department.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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What are the numbers in the Department between 2012 and 2013? That is the data I am seeking.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I gave those figures to the Deputy previously. In 2011, the figure was 347.74. The 0.74 represents someone working part-time. In 2012, the figure is 349.55, meaning an increase of one and a half employees, in people terms, between 2011 and 2012.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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The Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality last year had the opportunity to visit the Naval College in Cork, under the stewardship of the Flag Officer, Commodore Mark Mellett. We were mightily impressed with his vision and ambition for the Naval Service. One of the areas that was particularly impressive was that of innovation, where the Naval Service is working with academia and indigenous Irish companies to develop products, using its practical experience in areas like diving and training. I ask the Minister to comment on whether there is potential for profits to be made in that area which could be invested back into the Naval Service. It is a really good news story that we need to champion whenever we get the opportunity. We were mightily impressed with Commodore Mellett.

I wish to ask about the Reserve Defence Forces. The representative association of the RDF made a presentation to our committee in which it demonstrated some practical ways to save money. It has significant concerns about the future. The Minister has made the point previously that people within various organisations are afraid of change and that is a valid point. However, the points made by the representatives of the RDF were legitimate and we asked that the transcript of their presentation be sent on to the Minister for his consideration. If he has not done so already, will the Minister give an undertaking to meet them in a constructive way and to listen to them? Decisions have already been made on foot of the value-for-money report. The Minister has accepted the recommendations of that report and is initiating change but there may be a possibility of finding a mid-way point on the issues with which they are concerned. Opportunities could exist in that regard and I ask for the Minister's thoughts on that matter.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Before the Minister addresses those two questions on the Naval Service and the RDF, I wish to ask about the acquisition of a new ship. Will the Minister give an update on when that is expected to be delivered? I also note that the outturn for this year is €31 million compared to €33 million last year. I understand that takes into account the purchase of marine fuel and equipment but I am not sure whether it takes into account the purchase of vessels or whether it includes a provision for the contract for two new off-shore patrol vessels. There is one vessel due shortly and another one due some time thereafter.

I also concur with Deputy Mac Lochlainn's comments regarding what we saw at the Naval College and how impressed we all were on that visit.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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First, let me deal with the naval side of things. I agree that what is going on in Haulbowline is fantastic. Commodore Mellett is doing a superb job down there. I visited the college very shortly after my appointment as Minister and spoke with many of the individuals involved in SMEs. It is something that I have particularly encouraged. We established something that did not exist when I came into office. We have now involved Enterprise Ireland with the Defence Forces to look at ways in which the Defence Forces can be of assistance in the development of particular industries or can engage in research and development projects. Ultimately, the aim is to develop products that will be of benefit to our Defence Forces and those of other countries and to create jobs. I am giving that every encouragement. The engagement with Enterprise Ireland is proving very fruitful and beneficial. The innovation project has the capacity to create a number of jobs as well as to generate savings. It creates the possibility of equipment that we trial being made freely available to our Defence Forces. Once the equipment has been trialled by the Defence Forces - bearing in mind the importance of safety issues - and it proves valuable, small Irish companies will be producing a product with added validity, enabling it to be sold outside the State, thus creating jobs. Basically, what we get is increased personnel and capability development at no cost, which is of great value. The collaboration with academic and industrial partners by both the National Maritime College of Ireland, NMCI and the Irish Maritime and Energy Resources Cluster is of great value. The growth of IMERC resulted in the creation of 30 civilian jobs in 2012. This is a very exciting project and a very good news story. It has huge potential.

Some of the projects currently being supported include hazard prediction analysis of chemical and biological warfare agents in a dense urban environment, blast overpressure from current improvised explosive devices, IEDs, and blast wave interactions in an urban environment and the development of lightweight armour systems for first responders with Carlow Institute of Technology. This is all part of the engagement that is taking place. Work is also being done on explosive and chemical testing sensors and a project on developing procedures, practices and guidelines for forensic aspects of chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear, CBRN defences with the Tyndall National Institute. There are a number of areas of development and I see this as something that can grow. Enterprise Ireland's engagement in this process is very important because this may attract investment from abroad in areas where we can develop niche industries and in which there are niche markets. This will be to the benefit of the Defence Forces and will save public money, as well as having the capacity to create something very valuable in the long term which could create a substantially larger number of jobs than heretofore. I have spoken to some of the Irish entrepreneurs involved in this who are very happy with the level of engagement by the Defence Forces. I know that at committee meetings such as this one does not normally refer to individual members of the Defence Forces but Commodore Mark Mellett has been a leading figure, along with others in the college, in developing this very important and worthwhile project. I was very pleased to hear that the committee had visited the college.

On the question of the new naval ships, the good news is that the first ship is coming along extremely well. We anticipate that it will be undergoing its sea trials in the autumn and that it will be commissioned early next year. The second ship is expected in 2015. We are being very careful financially in this regard. The construction of the ships involve staged payments which have been included within the Department's Estimates over the last number of years. There is no difficulty with us meeting our obligations.

This year I think €20 million is the sum to be paid in respect of the ships as they are being constructed. The Chief of Staff recently visited the shipyard and he and I had a very lengthy discussion. We will have a state-of-the-art ship which will be able to fulfil a broad range of functions. It is a very important development. It is being built at a cost that is reasonable for the nature of the ship. Indeed, it is becoming, I am advised, a prototype for some other naval services across Europe which were looking at how they can update their fleets with vessels which do not cost hundreds or billions of euro but have certain necessary capabilities at a reasonable cost. I am very much looking forward to the trials commencing and our commissioning the ship in early 2014. We will then have the second ship coming on stream relatively speedily. That is all going very well.

With regard to the reserve, I did what I promised. I did, in fact, read its submission to this committee a couple of days after I got the transcript. To put it in simple terms, I am very happy to meet with the reserve at any stage. The reorganisation is going well. There has been greater engagement with members of the reserve with the PDF as a consequence of it. I have had some discussions where I have met members of the reserve informally or members of the PDF who have been working with the reserve. The feedback we are getting on the changes which have been implemented is very positive. I know the inconvenience on people but it has been positive. There is a different type of engagement now between the RDF and the PDF.

The reorganisation is effectively now in its second phase. It is intended, as I said in my presentation, that it will be completed by the end of September. In this period Defence Forces units incorporating PDF and RDF elements will start to function. The assignment of RDF personnel to units, which has almost been completed, will be finalised. The anticipated savings of €11 million should be achieved. In the context of the presentation made by the RDF, of course where there is a view that certain things may be done differently which would make them even more effective or which would effect additional real savings, we are of course having regard to that.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I have a few questions. I note in appropriations-in-aid in subhead B2 there is an estimate of €50,000 from the EU in respect of fisheries protection costs but nothing in 2012. Is that something new? Might it develop and might we get funding from the EU? I ask the Minister for an overview on that.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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That is effectively a nominal provision and we will have to see how it develops.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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That is interesting. The Minister also mentioned he was replacing the heavy machine gun for the Army. Will there be a different type of gun, will it continue with the model it has or will the Minister introduce a new model?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is not a new model.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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A GPMG is replacing it.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is the HMG. I know from the discussions what is planned. I also know it is further assessing the need in that area.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Can the Minister give us an overview on the move of the Army headquarters from its old to its new location? What is the current structure? Are there still elements in different parts of the city? Have they all been relocated to Newbridge? Are there still elements in Conyngham Road?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Let me give the committee the update on that. One of the key initiatives in 2012 is to cater for the relocation of some 50 military personnel from Coláiste Caoimhín in Dublin to Newbridge. There are great benefits to be achieved by greater integration between the military and civil sides so there is greater connectivity. A spatial audit in Newbridge has been undertaken. Space has been identified to accommodate Defence Forces personnel in the human resources area. The target date for relocation is September 2013 and the initiative involves the relocation of a number of departmental staff on the civil side.

Assessments by OPW architects and what are described as furniture specialists - I am not sure whether all of us could qualify as furniture specialists - are underway. It requires some structural works to be undertaken. They have been identified and obviously if this move is to be achieved by the end of September they will have to be commenced shortly. That is basically where things are.

Unfortunately, the decentralisation project was only partially completed. We had the property decentralisation of the civil side to Newbridge and the second part of this which envisaged a new building for the Defence Forces did not and could not occur in the financial circumstances. I do not mean to upset Deputy Ó Fearghaíl. I do believe the last Government made a mistake in transferring an entire Department to Newbridge. I know it is of benefit to people in Newbridge that people are there. It produced a very dramatic change of personnel within the Department, and we have very good personal in the Department, but it is the only main Government Department whose main Department is outside Dublin. What that has bequeathed to the Department is that where senior officials, such as Secretaries General, have to engage with other Secretaries General - there is a meeting every Wednesday morning between Secretaries General in different Departments - the Secretaries General of every other Department are in Dublin and the Secretary General of the Department of Defence has to travel from Newbridge to Dublin and Dublin to Newbridge.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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It is not exactly Outer Mongolia

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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No, it is not. When one is talking about connected, integrated government and the myriad other meetings which officials have to attend, including the Secretary General, I think the last Government thought it had discovered a manner of governing which the Romans discovered was a major error when they tried to disperse government around their empire, which subsequently collapsed. It was a mistake.

One cannot have senior officials in Departments at a distance from each other to such an extent that people have to spend an hour on the road travelling one way and an hour on the road travelling another. It is a waste of time and is not in the public interest. I see it in the context of myriad different meetings which take place of officials in different Cabinet sub-committees where officials attend with particular areas of specialties across different Departments.

There is a very good case for certain Government services being decentralised. For example, the move to Galway on the financial side was a very workable proposition. Senior officials need to be in the centre where they can interact easily with colleagues. Business can be conducted by telephone and other ways, but where there is a need for meetings and for people to sit around a table collectively it means an unnecessary amount of time is wasted by people travelling backwards and forwards.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has spoken like only someone from Dublin could speak.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister might provide us with a list of the existing buildings around the country which are being maintained and which he mentioned in his Estimates. Are there any plans to sell or off-load any of those which are lying idle?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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In the context of the property portfolio, the obvious ones which have to be properly maintained are all of the different barracks, which members will be familiar with. I will not delay the meeting by going through the list. It includes the naval base and Casement Aerodrome in Baldonnel. In addition, a number of smaller properties are used by the RDF.

The reorganisation of the RDF has resulted in number of properties becoming vacant. It is the same as in regard to barracks. For example, a lot of work is being done on barracks which have been made vacant and where arrangements can be made to effect sales of all or part of them.

The sale and disposal of various properties is currently being finalised. There are some new sales. For example, approximately eight acres at McKee Barracks in Kildare is being sold to the Department of Education and Skills; tenders for the married quarters in Orchard Park were due in on 14 June and the sale of 12 married quarters in Cathal Brugha barracks is ongoing. In the context of the RDF properties, these are available for sale. While some may be saleable in the current market others may not. In regard to those not saleable, we are open to constructive engagement locally in regard to any purpose they could serve that does not result in an expense on the Department of Defence. An amount of work is being done in this area.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for attending. On the point made earlier by Deputy Mac Lochlainn, more ships may be required because some of those remaining, which are out on the seas doing great work for the State in increasingly dangerous conditions, are aging rapidly.