Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Mr. Eamon O'Corcora and Mr. John Connolly to today's meeting to discuss the fishery management plan for inshore vessels under ten metres. I wish to draw the attention of the witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17 (2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter but continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against either a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

By way of background information, the Sub-Committee on Fisheries was established to focus on the fishing community's socioeconomic situation, with a view to promoting sustainable industries. The main areas for attention identified by the committee are aquaculture, island and coastal fisheries, inshore fisheries - specifically sea-angling - and tourism. I welcome the witnesses and point out to members that this will probably be our last hearing before we start to draft our report. I invite Mr. O'Corcora to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Eamon O'Corcora:

Gabhaim buíochas leis an choiste as cuireadh a thabhairt dúinn teacht anseo inniu. Táimid anseo ar son na mbád beag faoi deich méadar le ceadúnas ilfhiúsach lán. Is tionscal an-tábhachtach é seo don phobal cois farraige agus do phobal na Gaeltachta.

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to make a presentation here and put forward our views. This industry is very important to the Gaeltacht and coastal communities, particularly along the west coast. We are the forgotten people of Ireland and we feel our industry has been a scapegoat over the years and forgotten about. The situation is getting worse and we are hopeful that something can be done about it.

We have several aims and objectives, the first of which is to maintain a sustainable future for the commercial, inshore under ten metres sector. In order to do this, we need access to all of the stocks. We have been banned from fishing many stocks, which puts pressure on the shellfish. There is a need for very aggressive conservation and rejuvenation programmes in certain areas. For example, there is a conservation programme in place with the V-notching of lobsters, but we feel there is a far better way of conserving these stocks by allowing the females to breed in hatcheries and putting the juvenile fish out to sea, back to their natural habitat. Tests are being done on this at the moment and the breeding success rate is up to 20% better than with V-notching. We believe this method should be used for both lobsters and crayfish.

We need an industry-led cohesive management plan to ensure sustainable supplies. In that context, we are calling for the setting up of a central fisheries management board, with five fishermen from this sector on that board. Proper marketing is another key issue because at the moment, the lobster and shellfish market is at an all-time low. The European market is not the place to be going with much of the catch. There is a large amount of lobster being imported from outside the EU which is affecting the price. There are many other markets to be exploited. Lobsters can be dry-packed now and sent on within a few hours of being caught. The development of markets outside of Europe is vital but cannot happen unless a proper management structure is put in place. We feel that the system that has been in place for the last 30 years has not worked, unfortunately. There are many problems in our industry but no one is listening. Solutions must be found through collaboration.

The development of new management structures must be industry led and all stakeholders must be consulted. The central fisheries board that we are seeking would co-ordinate the management of the inshore sector. This could be done by regional committees advising the board of problems in certain areas. The approach must be adaptable and flexible and must not be a heavy-handed one. A streamlining of the licensing in the commercial sector is needed. The marketing and labelling of fish is very important. Labels must include information on where the fish is caught and by which vessels. We also need clearly defined rules and regulations regarding seasonal entitlements and so forth.

I will move on to our proposed management measures. Fishing seasons for different species has been an issue for all my life. I left school at 16 and my background is in fishing. We went from one season to the next and one species to the next. Many high value species can be fished on the west coast so one can take out a small amount for much greater reward. As a conservation measure, we must consider days at sea versus quotas. Minimum landing sizes must be respected and different types and different lengths of fishing gear must be considered. Other proposed measures included limited access through controlled fishing, proper monitoring, V-notching programmes, onshore hatcheries, and area closures where required for specific times. This does not involve closing an area and leaving it closed forever, which does not work.

We are also trying to get across the importance of the full polyvalent licence, which is basically a multifunctional licence. It allows someone to fish several species using different types of gear. These are the types of licences we had until 2005, at which point restricted licences came onstream. However, the criteria kept changing and, coupled with the salmon ban and the ban on the spurdog, it has been detrimental to shellfish. The real problem in pot licensing, which involves an area we do not represent, is the way it was administered and how licences were given to some people. There are many questions and we would like people to revisit the matter, examine it closely and see how it was done. Some 504 licences were issued although 700 licence applications were successful on the first day. It has decreased to 460 active licences. It created the problem. Coupled with the salmon ban and the ban on spurdogs, we have lost herring entitlements and we cannot fish for mackerel. It has had an awful effect. I do not know what can be done but something must be done. If not, the inevitable will happen and it will implode.

There are different minimum landing sizes for crayfish in the European markets. Our size is 110 mm while other countries have 95 mm and the European regulations and minimum landing sizes do not apply to fish coming from outside the EU into the European market. We are at a disadvantage. We tried to get the law changed so that the minimum landing size would be 100 mm and the maximum landing size 130 mm. This was rejected. This discriminates against the Irishman because we are going into the same markets as others who have different rules. We are told we are all Europeans but it seems that we are only Europeans when it suits us.

The ban on bass fishing is very contentious for the small boats sector. Whether boats are 6 m or 9.9 m, they are only capable of so much when taking into account weather conditions and the style of the hull. One can only do so much. It looks like a quota will be set. If it is set by Europe, will we have any quota in this country? The French, in particular, are fishing species in our waters. Who will compensate us for our loss of quota and the loss of livelihood? We have made suggestions in the past. The proposed management plan we sent in highlights this point. There are several methods of catching bass and we tried to get it open to line fishing and that certain vessels be allowed in on a pilot scheme. All proposals were rejected.

The salmon ban was the greatest disaster since the sinking of the Titanic. This tore the heart out of rural communities. People in rural communities, who are not all fishermen, have not spoken to each other in six or seven years. People believed the waffle they were listening to and now they cannot get local boats to supply them with one fish. It created an awful lot of bitterness. The salmon habitats directive was wrongly used. We do not agree with the science or the way it was presented. It was all one-sided and we would like to get the debate reopened. We must look at the problems of rural communities. People are emigrating. It is a very sad fact when one looks at the fishing industry. I come from Brandon, County Kerry, and when I started fishing in the early 1980s, there were 12 boats and 40 men going down to the pier every morning. There are now two boats and three men. My boat is a single-hand boat during the summer because it does not pay me to take anyone with me. Under the original driftnet legislation, it may be possible to give out a far lower number of licences than when the ban was introduced. These should be concentrated from Malin Head to Kinsale, which is the area people have suffered the most.

I had to go into a bank and borrow money to buy my licence and the fishing vessel, as did most of the other people, and we find we can no longer make a living with it. A small number of licences could be given out in strategic areas. We know there is a surplus of fish. With regard to where the figures came from and the number of counters in the rivers, the figure of four counters in four rivers is biting at me somewhere. All of a sudden, evidence was produced that rivers were below the survival limit. However, there were no fish counters in the rivers so I wonder where the information came from. That is what we would like to know. This was unjust on rural communities. Our proposed management plan provides for criteria for a small number of licences. This would make a big difference to communities from Donegal to Cork particularly.

The spurdog ban was a European thing but it was initiated by this country in the beginning. Spurdogs are so plentiful that I once unintentionally caught two tonnes of the stuff and I had to throw it over the side.

It is a very good and marketable fish which could be sent to the United Kingdom if we were allowed to catch it in a regulated fishery for vessels under 10 m. These boats cannot do much damage and if there was a regulated season and length of gear, it would alleviate the problems of shellfish.

There are many small bays along the coast and many of them are subject to the birds, habitats, Natura 2000 and other directives. However, from the end of September to February large pelagic vessels are fishing where there are only 4 fathoms of water - they are nearly raising sand off the bottom in taking the herrings. If some of these bays were closed and some of the smaller vessels were allowed to take a small quota, it would not do any harm. It would, however, make a big difference to us and very little difference to the others. Handing out high percentage quotas to large vessels is not the answer. It is detrimental to us and our communities.

Factory ships from other EU member states and outside the European Union are fishing for mackerel 40 miles west of the south west coast. They have a far smaller quota than the Irish mackerel fleet, yet they are spending ten months of the year there, maybe more sometimes. Why is this happening? How is it sustainable? Who is doing anything about it? Some deal should be made within Europe to take a small portion of the mackerel stock and not to bring it within the total allowable catch for hand lining by the small boats. Again, it is a very marketable fish.

We also have the problem of seals which I know is a hot potato. We asked fishermen all around the coast who own our own types of boat to count seals in their areas. We have come up with a very conservative figure of 50,000, which is totally unsustainable. We are not asking anybody to go out and kill seals, but perhaps some of them could be tranquilised and removed to some other jurisdiction because eventually they will have nothing to eat and will probably have to eat each other. Seals are a massive problem. There is no point going gill-netting for pollock or monkfish. Whatever scientific evidence is put up about seals, I can tell the committee for a fact that they are doing desperate damage. It must be possible to do something to reduce their numbers in some way.

We also have what we call the "alphabet" licences. When I started fishing, there was one type of fishing licence. There was a multifunctional polyvalent licence - basically a whitefish licence. It permitted fishing for so many species. However, boats now have licences with a "P" or an "A" or it could be any letter in front of them. Most of these licences have been given out for free, while others have had to spend a vast amount of money in buying capacity and then they can obtain a licence. This puts us at a great disadvantage. Those involved in the Tralee Bay oyster fishery have "A" licences. That is a managed fishery and doing no harm to anybody. However, there are other areas where it is impacting and we would like to see something done about it.

The trawling done by larger vessels affects smaller vessels. People not aligned to us have asked us to bring up this point. Big vessels tow heavy gear and ecological damage has been done to the seabed, including the tearing up of rocks, which means that small boats can no longer work there. If the people concerned were kept outside a certain limit, it might help.

For many years the use of small-mesh nets by other EU member state vessels has done damage to stocks of whitefish. Owing to the lack of rules on labelling, nobody knows whether fish imported from non-EU countries are farmed or wild. Pollution is a problem that has not been addressed.

I refer back to salmon fishing. During the time of the salmon ban a number of local authorities wrote to the then Minister, Mr. Pat "The Cope" Gallagher, MEP, to ask him to ban the practice of drift netting as it was damaging tourism. However, some of these local authorities installed sewerage systems which failed to meet EU standards. In some cases, they still do not meet EU standards. What has been done about this? They are doing much more damage than a small vessel of 6 m to 10 m.

We are totally opposed to cage fish farms at sea and have initiated a study which is far from complete. However, we have heard alarming reports of lice infestation and pollution. There is a proposal to build one of the largest fish farms in Europe. In the case of existing salmon farms, a team of divers should be sent down with sophisticated camera equipment to survey an area within half a mile of the cages and underneath them. This would provide clear evidence of whether they should proceed.

Another problem has been the lack of representation for those with vessels of less than 10 m. For years we have been trying to be recognised as representing a group. Until recently almost every door has been closed in our faces.

I will outline some solutions. We need a comprehensive management plan such as the one we suggested and a proper management structure, with local consultation. We need access to all stocks which can be fished to a sustainable level. We need to harmonise the landing criteria for crayfish, which is a major issue along the west coast. We need a comprehensive and aggressive breeding program for lobsters and crayfish. We need to look after the stock of juveniles. While the V-notching programme is welcome, it is only tinkering at the edges. Owing to the pressure on these stocks in recent years, they need an extra boost. If the stocks are there and healthy, the demand for natural wild fish will increase into the future. While we might not be around to see the benefits, somebody else will.

We need defined fishing seasons for certain species. That is what fishermen did when I was a boy.

They took a little of everything, which meant that there was a healthy stock of everything. That is the way forward. Part of the importance of full polyvalent licences is that they allow one to operate in such a manner. They do not restrict or put one under pressure. I hope the solutions we have proposed to these problems will be taken into consideration.

The introduction of onshore fish farms should involve renewable energy. I know people have been complaining about the cost of electricity, butt here are many sources of renewable energy. This approach would be very good for the environment and help the community. We have watched recently as people have spoken about creating jobs through fish farming in rural areas. With the possible exception of a few representatives of small areas, nobody seems to speak about or look at the potential for creating extra jobs in the wild fishery sector. It is just not on the cards and has not been for the past 30 years. It needs to be taken seriously. There needs to be an investment in small fish processing plants such as local smokeries for herring and mackerel in coastal communities because there are no jobs in these communities. As a result of the lack of investment, there is no infrastructure. There are no industries other than those supported by natural resources - fishing, farming and tourism.

I will conclude on that note. I thank members of the committee for listening to me.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Uasal Ó Corcora as an cur i láthair iontach atá déanta aige. Chuir na hiascairí cóip den doiciméid atá foilsithe acu ar aghaidh chugainn roimh ré fosta. Caithfidh me a rá go luíonn gach rud atá ráite ag an Uasal Ó Corcora le ciall agus le réasún. Go minic, ní raibh réasún nó ciall leis na polasaithe a cuireadh i bhfeidhm ón bhliain 1973 i dtaca le cúrsaí iascaireachta go háirithe. Tá na pobail cois cósta buailte le imirce. Tá daoine ag fágáil agus ag imeacht thar lear ag iarraidh obair a fháil. Tá mórchuid de na daoine óga ag fágáil na pobail éagsúla sin - na hoileáin amuigh ón gcósta, srl.

Cuireann sé iontas mór orm go bhfuil slad iontach déanta le 20 bliain anuas, ón am nuair a bhí - mar a dúirt an Uasal Ó Corcora - go leor báid ag dul amach ó na céanna agus na calafoirt ar maidin agus daoine orthu ag iascaireacht. Ag an am céanna, tá báid ó tíortha eile ag teacht isteach agus na héisc s'againne a ghabháil. Tá sé le feiceáil i ndeisceart na tíre go bhfuil báid ón Spáinn agus ón Fhrainc ag teacht isteach agus ag iascaireacht na héisc geal. Is é an réasún leis sin ná an dóigh ina bhfuil an córas cuótaí briste síos. Is scanall agus is náire é go bhfuil thart ar 95% de na cuótaí in uiscí na hÉireann ag dul go dtí báid ó na tíortha sin. Caithfidh an tír seo troid i gcoinne an ról soiléir atá ag an Aontas Eorpach sa chomhthéacs sin.

Is léir go bhfuil an tAire páirteach san obair ar an gComhbheartas Iascaireachta atá ag dul ar aghaidh. Níl a fhios agam an raibh deis ag Iascairí Intíre Cois Cladach na hÉireann cruinnithe a bheith acu leis an Aire roimh ré. Ar chuir an Roinn ceisteanna ar na hiascairí i dtaca leis na moltaí atá acu? Botún mór a bhí ann muna tharla sé sin. Ní tharlódh a leithéid i gcúrsaí feirmeoireachta dá mbeadh Aire ag dul amach chun ionadaíocht a dhéanamh thar ceann acmhainní nádúrtha na tíre seo. Ní bheadh aon chiall ann gan labhairt leis an tionscal ar tús. B'fhéidir go bhfuil tuairim ag an Uasal Ó Corcora faoin méid sin. Aontaím go huile agus go hiomlán le mórchuid den mhéid ata ráite aige.

Mar atá luaite i ndoiciméid na hiascairí, tá an tionscal intíre fíorthabhachtach. Tá tuairim is 4,500 duine ag obair sa tionscal faoi láthair, fiú leis an dóigh ina bhfuil an tionscal buailte. Tá a fhios acu siúd a bhfuil ag obair sa tionscal go bhfuil sé deacair go leor slí beatha a bhaint amach. It is very difficult to make a living in the industry to pay one's bills, cover one's mortgage costs, run one's car and put one's family through school and college. There are 4,500 people involved in it. Mr. Ó Corcora has identified some of the simple policy steps the State could take and which would not cost it one penny. It is a good idea to provide for regional management structures that would lead to a more localised decision-making process, or more localised input by fishermen in local regions. My understanding is that the fishing sector in different regions and different parts of the country is dealing with different issues. It is obvious that the whitefish issue is a major one in the southern region. As Mr. Ó Corcora has identified, salmon and lobster issues are arising in the northern region.

The ban on salmon fishing was a major blow to the inshore sector. It was obviously introduced by a Minister from my own party, Mr. Noel Dempsey, and was a fatal blow. The angling fraternity put huge pressure on the then Minister to consider the moneys that could be generated from angling tourism and there was documentation flying around everywhere in support of this. However, those moneys have not emerged. I accept that there was an issue at sea. Drift-netting may have been depleting salmon stocks, but there were other factors also. Mr. Ó Corcora has identified some of them, including the issue of seals waiting in bays and eating salmon as they come in and again on the way out. There were other issues relating to spawning grounds in rivers, poaching and pollution. Local authorities were playing a major part in the pollution of rivers. However, only one issue was dealt with - the banning of drift-netting. None of the other issues was dealt with, which was a mistake.

When Dr. Alyne Delaney appeared before the committee, she said there were 250,000 to 300,000 salmon in the north Atlantic and suggested salmon fishing could be sustainable if it were reopened on a pilot basis. I think Mr. Ó Corcora is highlighting that point about sustainability also. Other things such as a seal cull also have to be considered. I would be in favour of a seal cull around the coast. Obviously, Inland Fisheries Ireland is looking at rivers and spawning grounds and dealing with pollution control and poaching, etc. All of that needs to happen, but there also needs to be an opportunity. If that is not done, lobster stocks will become depleted. That is happening because too much pressure is being placed on one or two areas.

I am very keen for the committee to emphasise to the Minister that there is an alternative way of doing this. Those involved in Inland Fisheries Ireland which is responsible for salmon fishing might not agree. I have the highest regard for Dr. Ciaran Byrne, the chief executive officer of Inland Fisheries Ireland. We have to be able to show scientifically that this industry can operate again and some work may need to be done to show this. I suggest it be done on a pilot basis for three or five years, after which we can reflect on the matter. The salmon ban should have been introduced over two, three or four years, after which it should have been reviewed, but that is not what happened. A blanket ban was introduced, which was wrong. The rationale behind its introduction does not stand up. I certainly do not see thousands of tourist anglers coming to County Donegal to catch salmon in our rivers. Bed and breakfast accommodation, the hotels and restaurants are not seeing these tourists either. It was a false claim.

Mr. Ó Corcora has mentioned that a change will have to be made with regard to pot licensing. His document refers to the need to study the UK model. Is there anything there we should be considering? Are there recommendations we should be examining? Mr. Ó Corcora can respond to these questions when he is summing up. I am not familiar with what has been proposed in the United Kingdom, but he might be able to enlighten us.

I could go into much more detail on some of the recommendations made by Mr. Ó Corcora. I agree with the vast majority of what he said.

I agree with the points made about mackerel. The mackerel quota should not be divided exclusively among larger vessels. An element of the quota should be made available to the smaller inshore fleet. The same applies to the herring quota. There was a small allocation for the inshore sector but it needs to be ring-fenced in respect of mackerel and herring.

I have always said there is a need for added value processing in the fisheries sector. After leaving college, one of my first jobs was in the fisheries added value sector. There is massive opportunity to add value to fish products, as there is with seaweed harvesting. One gets €100 per tonne when seaweed is exported to China. If we add value to level 3, food grade, and level 2, at which ingredients can be used for facial beauty products, we can add up to €800 per tonne. It is a no-brainer to go down that road. The same applies to fish landed here. If we can add value and create jobs in the processing sector, that should be done. There is a need for the Bord Iascaigh Mhara and the Department to do more. There is a need for more funding and tangible research and development. I know that BIM is doing work in that area but Government support must be provided so there is some incentive for someone with a small vessel to diversify and set up a small smokery or a plant. In the food sector, it is always difficult to come up with proper research and development to define what the market demands. There is a lot of research to be done. How does one break into the market and compete with Tesco, Dunnes Stores, Lidl and Aldi?

Labelling is a major issue. There is importation of stock into the country and fishermen are trying to compete with Canadian lobster. There is a need to look at labelling, which the committee has examined from the point of view of agriculture. We also need to examine it from the point of view of fisheries so that it is definitive. We had a conversation with representatives of Aldi and Lidl, where Irish processed food is sold. The ordinary punter buys the Irish processed food thinking it is authentically Irish, but it is not. When it comes in here, a package is put on it and that may be the only processing that takes place here. The fish may be caught in Norway but it is brought in here and sold with the Irish processed green label on it. We must work on this and there is a need for a statutory framework to protect the Irish sector and ensure the Irish product obtains the highest possible price for the fishermen, just like the farmer.

The presentation was one of the best we have received at the committee. It makes common sense and I hope we can reflect on it and implement some of the suggestions in our recommendations, which will go before the Department and the Minister.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. O'Corcora and Mr. Connolly for the presentation. It is good to have people representing not just vested interests in fishing but the communities they come from. The IIE effectively does that, representing the largest number of people involved in the sector. They all come from the coastal communities most affected by the prevailing policies and the lack of policy to ensure fishermen, their families and their communities can survive. Regrettably, successive Governments have done the complete opposite. In reading the presentation, I thought it was an affront to democracy that neither the previous Government nor the current Government has met the organisation. It is an indictment of the political system that this is the case. Some 4,500 people involved in the sector are effectively voiceless when it comes to decision-making processes. They are not being listened to and have no voice at the table.

I come from further up the same bay as Mr. O'Corcora and I grew up in the same environment of small farming and fishing communities with multiple fishing types throughout the year. There was potting in the early part of the year, salmon in the summer and oysters in the winter. This was replicated along the west coast and parts of the south coast. There was also small farming in order to provide sustainable incomes for people in the community. These were vibrant communities because people were community-orientated, not individualistic. Successive Governments have made a point about how progressive some fishermen are. The fact that 23 people own the entire quota is an indictment of the political system.

I was on the committee while an industry was taken from rural communities. People from different political persuasions, including Fianna Fáil backbenchers, spoke against what Noel Dempsey was doing. They were forced by the Whip to vote for what was done, which was a disgrace. Senator Denis O'Donovan, who was a Deputy at the time and is from west Cork, was totally opposed to what was happening.

Taking the salmon industry from our community had a terrible effect and put pressure on other sectors within fishing. In order to maintain a sustainable income, people switched over to crayfish, gillnetting and lobster fishing, putting extra pressure on the area. With regard to the number of pots people can fish on our coast, a regular-sized fishing person who is fishing crayfish and lobster pots has up to 900 pots. Twenty years ago, 150 pots was a sizeable amount of gear. Now, one must multiply it by five or six in order to have a sustainable income. I wish decision makers could see how difficult it is for people to survive. One of my best friends is a selector on the same football team as me. He is a crewman on a boat and he has hauled 600 pots for less than €50 for the day. He was out from 4 a.m. until 12 midnight for less than €50 in order to put bread on the table for his family. That is what the system and the State have done to people like the witnesses. I applaud them for coming here and everything they have said makes sense. The decision-makers must decide where the quota will go. All we can do, as elected representatives, is to give our absolute commitment to ensure that most of what is put before us is implemented. We must pressurise the people who make decisions to implement the suggestions.

I cannot understand how the bass industry can allow non-Irish boats fishing our waters while we cannot. It does not make sense. We have no quota. The witnesses are correct about spurdog, which is thick in the water. When jigging for mackerel in July and August, one gets a lot more spurdog than mackerel close to the rocks. It is soul-destroying to see what is happening to our communities. Irrespective of our political parties, committee members must be vocal in pursuit of the aims and objectives of what the witnesses are promoting so that the 4,500 people involved in the sector can put food on the table for their families, live in the communities in which they were born and continue in the industry.

Culling seals as humanely as possible, which has always been done, is how we protect stocks. Some cowboys do it and give the whole thing a bad name and it has the opposite effect. We need a cull for salmon. There are culls of badgers, deer and other species in order to keep a balance. When we were allowed to fish salmon, there was nothing worse than seeing 15 or 20 salmon in the net and seeing the seal taking the salmon out of the net. When it drops to the bottom, the seal is eating the salmon and the fisherman is going home with nothing.

The wider public just see the headline; they do not understand what it takes to bring all this about.

I wish the delegates the best and compliment them on their work. I am delighted that the committee has had the delegation before it. The members present are from coastal communities and know exactly what the delegates are talking about. We know exactly what they have gone through and the difficulties associated with trying to maintain the fabric of the community and industry. However, we need to get others to listen. That is the way we will go.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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I thank Mr. O'Corcora and Mr. Connolly for their presentations and circulating the document which is very comprehensive and covers many of the issues I had hoped the committee would address as part of its deliberations. The committee was tasked with drawing up a report to consider what policy initiatives could be implemented to aid the inshore fishing sector to allow people to continue fishing. Much of the focus has been on alternative industries - in tourism and aquaculture, for example. It is useful to have seen a fishing-based document and heard a presentation that demonstrate how people who want to remain in the industry could be facilitated and assisted. I hope the report, when produced, will include some of the policy initiatives recommended in the document and put them onto another plain that could result in their implementation.

It is good that there is an organisation for inshore fishermen and that their voice is represented. It is very disappointing that Ministers have not been meeting the delegates and taking on board what they have been saying. We should be able to make policy decisions that allow for inshore fishermen to remain in the industry and continue to work together. That is for the common good. Too often, people have regarded stocks as their own rather than those of the nation. We should be able to devise policy in ways that will allow everybody to have a share of the stocks and maintain their livelihoods. This is important.

The submission contains some interesting ideas on fishing seasons, closed times, etc. These ideas should be considered on a regional basis across the country. They should inform policy-making and decision-making. We should not devise a policy that excludes people; we should facilitate everybody as much as possible. Of course, there will be horse-trading and some will be disappointed, but we should definitely not specifically exclude anybody. The salmon fishing ban has highlighted this to a large extent. Fishermen can now focus only on crabs and lobsters, which makes no sense. I welcome some of the policies included in the document and hope they can be integrated into a report and included in the final report. I hope we will be able to engage with the delegates in the future and encourage the relevant Ministers to do so also.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the two speakers. As Deputy Martin Ferris stated, we come from fishing areas. I was born and reared in Castletownbere and I am familiar with both sides of the delegates' argument in terms of the larger fleet that operates from Castletownbere. There is also a huge inshore fleet, a forgotten fleet.

Interestingly, the presentation goes to the core of what the committee was established to investigate. The problems highlighted by Mr. O'Corcora are fundamental in determining how the committee should do its work and produce its report. Other sectors such as aquaculture have representative bodies, NGOs and even Departments looking after their interests. While they are not perfectly served, they are better served than the inshore fleet. We should carry out an exercise in this regard. Mr. O'Corcora, as with us all, will realise that the fleet capacity is set. So many tonnes and kilowatts are allowed and that is the way it is. If one had estimates of the numbers of jobs per tonne and kilowatt provided by the inshore and other fleets, they would tell a very interesting story. One should bear in mind that coastal communities have been ravaged by emigration and the lack of opportunities that could be provided. Perhaps the committee could carry out this exercise in its deliberations and put the matter under the spotlight.

Fishing gets very bad press nationally and internationally. The one exception is the inshore fleet. Celebrity chefs and all those who seem to have an inordinate say in the media point to the inshore fleet because the fishery is sustainable and provides a living for families and support for communities - no more and no less. The industry has much potential and this needs to be recognised. If the committee did nothing other than recognise the potential of the inshore fleet, it would be a very good start.

There is conflict, as we know. Everything is not rosy in the garden because really delicate and sensitive management are required, even within the inshore fleet, to produce a policy or consensus. Added to this are the competing interests of the larger vessels from the polyvalent, pelagic, beam and aquaculture sectors. In addition, there is bureaucracy in the Department and Government policy. Although I question why one would start at all, a start is needed. Today's testimony is a good start.

The driftnet ban in respect of salmon fishing was referred to. Mr. Michael Keatinge of BIM testified that this could be examined. He said that, using scientific information from the Marine Institute, for example, we could revisit these issues. He excluded Aran Mór, for whatever reason, because the salmon run there is different. I would welcome a re-examination.

There is an inevitability about the policy on days at sea. I was at a meeting yesterday morning in Castletownbere and noted that, irrespective of how the discard ban will be operated and administered, the days at sea concept was becoming part of the conversation. I believed I would never hear about it. It is coming from the industry. One must talk about proposals. The idea will be unpopular in some quarters and might be supported in others, but, at least, if one discusses concepts such as ring-fencing fisheries and additions to licences, there is merit in it.

I heard an interesting proposal on banning pelagic fishing entirely from March to May or June for all fleets. This effort would give more challenged species a chance, particularly when breeding.

I am very interested in the proposals on substituting the V-notching, seeding for scallops and whatever else can be done. The schemes are very progressive. There was a scheme for scallops and reasonable success. Schemes should be re-examined. If they provide for a 20% increase in effort, it would be very much welcomed.

The seal debate will be very contentious. As Deputy Martin Ferris stated, people really do not understand the issues involved. Tourists might like to see seals on the rocks, but a seal that goes to a driftnet will take one bite out of every fish. It will take a bite out of the belly of the first fish, move onto the next one and take a bite out of its belly and continue in that vein, thus decimating stocks. If that is the natural approach, it is difficult to deal with, but seals need to be managed in some shape or form. It is about striking a balance between what is environmentally sound and what is economically sustainable for communities.

All the presentations to the committee have been valuable but this presentation gets to the nub of what we are trying to do as a committee. Many inshore fisheries may be represented through their POs but their voices are not being heard through their POs, organisations or communities, as they should be. I hope the problems identified and solutions proposed by Mr. O'Corcora will inform our report in due course.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh ár gcuairteoirí. Tá brón orm go raibh mé beagáinín deireannach ag teacht isteach, ach tá go leor rudaí ag tarlú inniu.

Is dóigh liom gur fiú go mór dár gcuairteoirí teacht anseo agus is dóígh liom gur cuireadh fáilte croíúil rompu, ach is dóigh liom freisin go gcaithfidh siad ceist a chur orthu féin agus go gcaithfidh muidne ceist a chur orainn féin an bhfuil muid sásta an obair chrua, thar tréimhse fada, a dhéanamh le difríocht a dhéanamh, mar ní thagann athrú thar oíche sa Teach seo. Tá sé spéisiúil gur tháinig na toscairí anseo inniu, ar lá go ndearnadh cinneadh tábhachtach san Eoraip breathnú i ndiaidh na bhfeirmeoirí beaga ar bhealach níos fearr ná mar a bhíothas ag breathnú amach dóibh go dtí seo. Tháinig an cinneadh sin ón gCoimisiún. Mar sin, is féidir athruithe móra a dhéanamh, agus teastaíonn athrú an-mhór ó thaobh an cur chuige ó thaobh cúrsaí iascaireachta de.

The chart at the end of the submission says it all. A total of 75% of the boats are less than 10 metres but, like everything else, if their catches were compared to those of the large boats, the breakdown would be 90:10 or worse and that is the nub of the issue. If we are to pursue this path together, we must first arrive at a cross-party consensus. We will then pursue a line that many people will say is attractive but will never succeed. A short effort will be put in and then it will be dropped. A fundamental change in how we do business is needed.

When I was first approached by this organisation, I was interested in a number of basic concepts. The first is the concept of de minimis. In other words, we are forever micro managing the small operators but, in many cases, the larger operators are governed by the same rules. I recall during the drift net debate going out fishing one evening with guys in a currach to pull in the nets, which was legal at the time. It was man against nature in a big way. The reality is that over 100 years they had not managed to out-fish the capability of fish. Mechanisation and automation have made many things unsustainable and, therefore, coastal communities must fish in an area exclusive to inshore fishermen in which all the stock can be fished in the knowledge that one will never be allowed to have a boat bigger than 10 metres. The boat will be always limited in hauling in nets over a certain size. In that way, fishing by definition would be sustainable.

If we try to say we want a special deal for Ireland on inshore fishing, we are doomed to failure. On the other hand, if we said coastal communities with small boats should have first call on stocks adjacent to their shores and the same should apply in Spain, Portugal, Great Britain and other maritime countries and we worked at gathering support for that, we might succeed because we would then create a pan-European demand among such communities for a fair share of the stocks within a set radius of the shore. Limiting the number of stocks that can be fished, as Mr. Ó'Corcora said, would put impossible pressure on the remaining stocks and, therefore, the limits should be applied to the size of boats and nets and all stocks should be fished. If the change is to be made at European level, it will take five to ten years. When I say that to people, they realise if they had started ten years previously, they would be home and dry with this change to the Common Fisheries Policy. If the representatives wait another five years to come in and have a bitch at us about what is not happening and we all give out to each other about what is not happening and we say if it does not happen tomorrow, it will not happen, we will be exactly where we are now. We all have to decide whether we have a common position and, if so, whether we are willing to take whatever time it takes to achieve long-term results regarding the European input into this issue. This is a major European issue in the context of quotas, TACs and so on.

I refer to salmon fishing. Without Inland Fisheries Ireland declaring that there is surplus fish, the organisation is dead in the water but, luckily, its staff have said there is a surplus in certain areas, although there is a particular difficulty in County Donegal because there is mixed stock fishing. When I was in Cabinet we fought powerful forces on this issue, which we must recognise. The Minister at the time, Mary Coughlan, fought them. I used to always argue that none of the drift net fishermen wanted an unsustainable fishery. If they did, they were fools because they were cutting off their noses to spite their faces. However, we must recognise that to make progress, we must make alliances with those engaged in the science of this issue and work with them to come up with solutions over which they can stand in order that, internationally, we can prove we are not in any way damaging stocks. Anything else would be foolish and would not lead anywhere productive. Just saying "we want" will not achieve anything. If we tried to return to where we were, I estimate 85% of Deputies across all parties would oppose it. I recall having that argument with fishermen. I would love to see a free vote on this issue because I guarantee if we tried to return to the old status quo, it would be roundly beaten in the House. We should recognise the challenge we face. Fishermen living on the coast should have access to surplus stock as long it is sustainable. It must be done in a way that is saleable nationally and internationally. That is a major task but one on which we should work. IFI, which has responsibility for salmon rights, has a key role to play and we need to work with its staff.

I agree with Mr. Ó'Corcora on the seals. At the end of the day, there is no point making poor old homo sapiens starve while there is an overabundance of a predator that has done more than fishermen ever did to decimate stocks.

There are humane ways of dealing with culling and the issue should not be off-limits.

I was interested in what Mr. O'Corcora had to say about crayfish and what could be done immediately. He pointed out that we have a different standard from the European standard. We should direct our attention to that and try to deal with the specific issue. We should do the same with regard to bass.

I was also interested in what was said about food imports into Europe, which is an issue we could deal with instantly. This issue arose in a different context recently regarding the standards that apply to fish food imports into Europe compared to standards applying with regard to European fish. The issue arose in regard to horsemeat, where the standards that apply to the imports of American horsemeat through Mexico and Canada into the European Union are different to the standards that apply to the slaughter of horses here and the placement of that horsemeat into the food chain. If the American standards do not kill people, why do we need to have even higher standards? To put it another way, if we have a very high standard to ensure people are not put at risk, why does the same standard not apply to American horsemeat? The same issue arises with regard to fish. If we impose all sorts of high standards on our fishermen, in terms of catch, mesh size and various other standards to ensure sustainability of the seas - the seas and fish around the world do not recognise national boundaries - it would seem reasonable that Europe should insist on the same standards for imports. This should apply to all food products for consumers, whether with regard to food safety standards, environmental standards, standards on the use of chemicals or any others. The standards should be the same for all and Europe should set out clearly that with regard to the exploitation of the planet, it does not make any difference whether it happens within or without the European Union. As far as Europe is concerned, citizens should not eat food that is not produced sustainably.

I was glad to hear my colleague say that this submission was one of the best we have had and that it addressed the issues bang on the nose. One other issue that arose in this debate, which is one that has annoyed me over many years, was the theory of an alternative job. This theory is that we will stop fishermen from fishing but give them an alternative job. I have found two problems with this theory. First, most fishermen know fishing best and want to continue fishing. They do not want another job and if they are trained for another job it is not where their heart is. Second, the alternative job very often does not materialise. The ban on drift net fishing was a perfect example of what happens. The significant income that came into coastal communities from drift net fishing has disappeared, but there has been no sign of any huge growth in tourism, angling and so on. Perhaps there has been growth in the odd area, but in no way has there been sufficient growth to make up for the loss of income. Tá ceist mhór ansin.

Molaim an méid dua agus oibre atá curtha isteach san aighneacht chuimsitheach seo. Tá aontas mór eadrainn mar coiste go bhfuil toirt agus foirfeacht ag baint leis an gcur chuige atá curtha in ár láthair agus nuair a bheidh muid ag cur tuarascála le chéile, beidh muid in ann tarraingt ar an gcáipéis seo agus leas mór a bhaint aisti. An rud a tharlaíonn anseo ná go gcuireann an coiste cáipéis le chéile. An bua a bhaineann le cáipéisí ón gcoiste seo ná go mbíonn tacaíocht iomlán an choiste ag cibé cén cinneadh a thagann muid air ag an deireadh, trasna na bpáirtithe uilig, Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin, Páirtí an Lucht Oibre agus na Neamhspleáigh. Cuirtear sin i láthair an Aire agus bíonn deis againn ansin, go gearrthéarmach agus go fadtéarmach, feidhmiú ar sin mar chlár oibre agus iarracht a dhéanamh torthaí a bhaint amach bunaithe ar an gcáipéis anseo san Oireachtas, ach freisin ag leibhéal na hEorpa.

Ar deireadh, is féidir linn roinnt áirithe a dhéanamh anseo sa mbaile, ach caithfimid dul i gcionn ar an Eoraip chomh maith ó thaobh na pobail cois cósta. Tá cuid d'fhuascailt na faidhbe anseo, ach tá cuid thall san Eoraip freisin. Ní bheadh a fhios ag duine ach oiread, nach bhfaighfeadh muid tacaíocht forleathan san Eoraip, ach fís soiléir a bheith againn mar pholaiteoirí céard atá uainn agus comhcheangal a dhéanamh le pobail mar a chéile ar na chóstaí ar fud na hEorpa.

It is important to know that we will put a document together. We can do a certain amount here, but we must, once we are clear on our policy - it would be a good idea to have a cross-party policy - work through our MEPs or otherwise to connect with all coastal communities and countries to try and find a common cause for the 75% of fishermen who, like those in Ireland, work in small boats and are being squeezed out, with very little effect on conservation.

Mr. John Connolly:

Gabhaim buíochas le baill an choiste uilig. Ceapaim gur seo an lá is fearr dúinn mar iascairí go dtí seo. Táim trí scór bliain d'aois agus táim ag plé le cruinnithe le 30 bliain. Ceapaim go bhfuil an cruinniú a bhí againn inniu ar cheann de na cruinnuithe is fearr a chonaic mé agus tá a fhios agam go dtiocfaidh rud éigin maith as, mar an dream atá timpeall an bhoird, is dream ón gcósta uilig iad, ar nós mé féin. Rugadh ar oileán mé agus tá suas le 50 bliain caite agam ar an bhfarraige. Thosaigh mé amach ag iascaireacht ag plé le gliomaigh, le b'fhéidir scór potaí. Sin an méid a bhí ag teastáil ag an am. Bhíodh muid in ann slí mhaireachtála a bhaint amach le sin. Is é sin le rá go raibh muid in ann ár dteanga, ár gcultúr agus ár n-oidhreacht a choinneáil beo inár gceantar. Anois, dá mbeadh 1,000 potaí amach agam, ní bheinn in ann slí mhaireachtála a bhaint amach.

Táim ag iascaireacht le 150 potaí anois faoi láthair. Chuile bhliain, tosaím ag iascaireacht ag deireadh mhí Márta go dtí Deireadh Fómhair. Sin an séasúr atá agam. I mbliana, ní dheachaigh mé ag iascaireacht go dtí amach san Aibreán go maith. Níl aon gliomaigh fanta mar séard atá ag tarlú ná go bhfuil báid móra ag fáil níos mó potaí chuile lá agus ag cur níos mó potaí chun farraige. Tá suas le 1,000 potaí amach ag cuid de na báid agus tá siad ag iascaireacht 12 mhí sa bhliain. Tá an stoc gliomach gar a bheith bailithe. Seans gur sin ceann de na fáthanna go bhfuil muide anseo, ag iarraidh go mbreathnódh muid amach don stoc éisc agus gliomach atá ann, an stoc a d'fhág ár n-athair agus ár mhuintir againn le n-iascaireacht. Ní bheidh mise in ann é sin a rá le mo chlann féin - gur fhág mé an stoc acu - mar ní bheidh aon stoc ann.

Tá súil agam go bh'féadfaidh an coiste seo rud éigin a dhéanamh don stoc gliomach. Tá an brú uilig ar iascaireacht na ngliomach. Stopadh iascaireacht na mbradán agus chuile cineál iascaireachta. Stopadh iascaireacht na bhfíogach - dogfish- fiú. Bhíodh muid ag plé le líonta agus le scadáin siar sna 70í nuair a bhí iascaireacht mhaith le déanamh. Bhí £20 le fáil ar bhosca scadán an t-am sin. Ar chúig bosca an t-am sin, bheadh pá sheachtaine ag duine. Tá sé sin uilig stopaithe anois.

Tá sé chomh maith a rá anois gur thíos in aerfort Chorcaigh atá an calafort is mó iascaireachta in Éirinn. Tá éisc agus gliomaigh ag teacht isteach ansin ó Cheanada agus tá a fhios agam go bhfuil go leor díobh sin ag dul amach arís mar gliomaigh Éireannacha go dtí an Fhrainc. B'fhéidir gur ceart breathnú isteach ansin agus féachaint an bhfuil sin ag tarlú. Bhí mé istigh i nGaillimh níl sé i bhfad ó shin i siopa éisc agus bhí boscaí ann le "Frozen at sea in Greenland" orthu.

Tá neart éisc timpeall an chósta. Bhí an t-iasc geal breá fairsing i mbliana. Tá an praghas tite i léig de bharr an méid éisc atá ag teacht isteach ó tíortha eile. Tá a fhios agam go gcaithfimid éisc a thabhairt isteach le haghaidh rudaí eile a dhíol amach. Chuir mé ceist an bhféadfar cuid de na gliomaigh atá ag teacht isteach ó Cheanada a stopadh ionas nach mbeidís ag dul amach as an tír seo mar ghliomaigh Éireannach. Bhíodh muid ag plé le cráifisceanna le fada. Bhíodh séasúr i gcónaí ann. Bhíodh muid ag plé le muiríní ag tús na bliana, b'fhéidir. Anois, muna bhfuil tú istigh sa chomarchumann, níl tú in ann plé leis an iascaireacht sin. Bhíodh mé ag plé leis na bradáin. Bhí mé ag baint slí maireachtáil astu, ach níl mé amuigh ar an fharraige anois. Is í an abhainn is giorra domsa ná abhainn atá thoir i mbéal Cuan Ros a' Mhíl. Tá 200 iascaire eile ansin - 200 rón ag béal na habhann - in áit mise a bheith taobh amuigh. Tá siad ag déanamh iascaireacht anois in áit muide a bheith ag plé le sruthlíonta.

Caithfear rud éigin a dhéanamh i dtaobh na rónta. Nuair a bhíonn mé ag iascaireacht mangaigh anois le darú nó ag iascaireacht ón talamh, tagann siad agus tógann siad an mangach díreach ón líne. Nuair a bhí mise ag éirí aníos, bhí airgead le fáil as smiotadh róin. Bhí punt le fáil ar an rón, punt ar an gcaróg liath agus airgead ar an sionnach. Caitheadh in aer é sin uilig. Mar a dúirt an tUasal Ó Corcora, tá an cósta lán le rónta. Ní muide na hiascairí níos mó - is iad na rónta na hiascairí is mó. Dúntar an iascaireacht portáin roimh an Nollaig. Is é an margadh is fearr a bheadh ag na báid ná ag iascaireacht na bportáin seo roimh an Nollaig. Rachfadh na daoine atá ag iascaireacht na gliomaigh ag iascaireacht na portáin. Bheadh airgead le déanamh acu don Nollaig. Caithfear freisin breathnú isteach ar an méid potaí atá ag gach bád. Tá na hiascairí ag iarraidh an méid sin a laghdú go dtí 200 pota. Má tá 200 pota amuigh ag chuile bhád, beidh an t-iascaireacht i bhfad níos fearr agus beifear in ann breathnú amach do na héisc. Tá daoine atá ag iascaireacht faoi láthair agus is cuma leo cad a thagann isteach sa mbád - tabharfaidh siad leo abhaile iad. Muide a tógadh leis an fharraige - agus a d'fhás aníos leis an fharriage - tugann muid aire don fharraige.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Connolly. I think the delegation got a flavour from the members of the importance they attach to the presentation. The conclusion of the presentation sets out the bottom line from the committee's point of view. If the sub-committee accepts on a cross-party basis that vessels under 10 m are vital for the survival and sustainability of rural, coastal and island communities, we have to consider putting forward an agreed position along the lines of the suggestion made by Deputy Ó Cuív. Perhaps we could recommend that those using such vessels be allowed to fish inside certain limits and to a certain capacity, with a mixed fish stock, at a level that allows for continued and ongoing sustainability and the maintenance of the species balance and everything else. Perhaps some of the other things we have discussed can work in harmony with that basic principle.

When I was a member of this committee in the last Dáil, we travelled to meet the previous Commissioner, Joe Borg, who was from Malta. He made the point that when the current Common Fisheries Policy was drawn up, his aspiration was that a two-track approach would be adopted, with one track for the larger fleet and the other track for smaller island and coastal communities in Ireland and elsewhere in Europe. Rightly or wrongly, he was not appointed to this portfolio for a second term. I think discards have become the biggest issue in the portfolio of measures that the current Commissioner wants to see implemented. It is not that the previous priority has been excluded. Maybe this committee should reboot that effort. While we can play our part, Deputy Ó Cuív rightly pointed out that work is needed at EU level. We are just about to embark on a Common Fisheries Policy that does not do anything that is exclusively negative in this regard, but does not do anything to help either. We need to try to refocus attention on the coastline from Malin to Kinsale, in particular. That part of the country is most affected by this.

I thank the members and the witnesses for their comments. We extended the period of time of the hearings to receive today's presentation. It was definitely worthwhile from the perspective of all committee members. I think I am the only member present who does not come from a coastal fishing community. When I listened to what was said about seals, I was reminded that the same issues are arising with deer where I come from. The difficulty in such cases lies with the public perception of what people are trying to do, as opposed to what they are actually trying to do. I did not think a comparison could be made between deer and seals, but it is relevant in this case. That concludes today's proceedings. I thank members and witnesses again for their contributions.