Mr. Declan Byrne:

To pick up on sheep numbers, the figures Ms Heraty has displayed are for the numbers of sheep in the different district electoral divisions, DEDs. This hides a much larger problem in County Wicklow in that while the sheep are there, the farmers do not put them out on the hills. They may still have the same numbers, but they are not putting them out on the hills and if they are, it is for a very short period. The problem is much more severe than what has been highlighted. Unfortunately, we do not have figures, but anecdotally, from talking to farmers, we know that many still have sheep, but they are not putting them out near the hills. That is a much bigger problem.

On the reason sheep numbers fall, the main reason is that they are not making money. The national farm survey shows that, without direct payments, hill farmers are losing money. That is the bottom line. Why would they keep more sheep to lose more money and endure more hardship? That is the reason sheep numbers are falling.

In terms of incentives for young farmers and so on, we have had various discussions among ourselves, but one of the issues in hill areas is that young farmers do not have access to the hills because of the way the schemes - the single farm payment and the area aid scheme - have been structured. Farmers already have their payments based on the land area they are farming. They need to keep these areas on their area aid or single farm payment scheme forms to receive their payments. Therefore, young farmers starting out do not have access to the hills. If we could free this a little, that would be one possible avenue by which to encourage young fellows to take up farming. The other big one is if there was a profitable sheep enterprise. If there is no money in it, they will not stay.

Someone brought up the issues of under-grazing on the hills and heather management. Traditionally in County Wicklow the heather is grazed and when it becomes too strong, we have to burn it to generate young growth.

I deal with farmers from Teagasc and so on, but the pattern of sheep grazing on the hills is very important. This also leads to the problem with burning. We no longer put sheep on the hills for the winter months. The winter and early summer months are the time of the year when sheep graze on the heather. These are the periods in County Wicklow, in particular, when sheep are not being put back on the hills and unless we can do something to address this, the heather getting strong and having to continue to burn it will still be an issue.

Some years ago a trial was undertaken by the National Parks and Wildlife Service on Djouce mountain. It carried out a controlled burn and swiping operation. It achieved great results, but because sheep were not put back out at the appropriate time to graze on the heather, it was fit to be done again. Using sheep is the most effective way of controlling the problem. Unfortunately, even if one is actively farming with sheep, one still needs to burn the heather as part of a long-term control plan.