John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of today’s meeting is to discuss the maintenance of regional and local roads. I welcome Mr. Michael Walsh, Waterford City Council, Mr. John Mulholland, Kilkenny County Council and Mr. John McLoughlin, Donegal County Council, who are all members of the County and City Managers Association. We would also like to hear how the County and City Managers Association prioritises roads for remedial works.

I draw attention to the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Any submission or opening statement witnesses have submitted to the committee will be published on its website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Michael Walsh to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Michael Walsh:

I thank the committee for inviting us to appear before it. I am city manager of Waterford City Council and acting chair of the transportation committee of the County and City Managers Association. Mr. Tom Coughlan, Clare county manager, is currently indisposed. I am accompanied by Mr. John Mulholland from Kilkenny County Council, who is director of services in transportation, and Mr. John McLaughlin, director of services with Donegal County Council. All of us have been through the mill in terms of road maintenance and area engineers and have some degree of experience in these matters.

I will give a brief ten minute presentation on the broad background to the issues under discussion and to place the local and regional road maintenance programmes in the context of the overall funding position, which is obviously not very good.

At national level the reduction in Exchequer funding has been extreme over the past several years. In 2007 investment in maintenance of our roads was in the region of €700 million but that figure has decreased to €400 million in the current year. Members will be aware of the recent announcement by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government of an additional €50 million, for which we are very grateful to say the least because the money is necessary. However, even though the additional €50 million is a great help we remain concerned about the overall investment proposition in the longer term. The proposed figure for next year is closer to the €300 million mark, which would be less than half the necessary level of investment to hold the road infrastructure together. We acknowledge the fiscal context but we are worried about the investment context. International institutions such as the World Bank argue that a failure to invest in road maintenance represents a significant deferred liability. To draw a simple analogy, a stitch in time avoids significant damage. The current overall investment level is a case of loaves and fishes. Local authority contributions to road maintenance amount to approximately €100 million. This figure has declined somewhat due to pressures on local finances but it has been of that order for a number of years.

Mr. John Mulholland:

I will speak on the subject of maintenance cycles. Members will be familiar with the operation known as surface dressing, whereby chippings and bitumen are applied to road surfaces. This process is generally carried out on a cycle of seven to ten or 12 years and is important not only for skid resistance and public safety but also for preserving the integrity of the road. Many people observe in their daily travels the operation known as strengthening, which involves the application of tarmacadam layers to the road to protect the asset. This operation is prioritised based on the condition of the road surface. Current levels of funding only allow for 40% of roads to be completed in these cycles. They are desirable cycles but we are currently dipping below them.

Additional pressures on the road network include winter maintenance. The application of salt or grit to roads makes them safe for motorists and allows the ordinary conduct of business during the winter. A significant level of effort has been invested in this work by local authorities and the National Roads Authority, with the co-operation of the IFA and other community interests, over the past several years and we are now at a fairly decent standard. The pressures of reduced funding will have an impact in that we will not be able to meet some of the targets currently in place, particularly given that the motorway network will be maintained by contractors over the coming period.

Health and safety issues can be considered under two headings, first, for the workers on site and, second, for motorists and people in the vicinity of roadworks, such as local communities, farmers trying to access lands and local businesses. Heavy loading has an impact on the road network, particularly local and regional roads. This will be more manifest in the years ahead, particularly in the agriculture and forestry sectors. The lifting of the milk quota in 2015 may have implications for access to remote farming areas where progressive farmers try to increase dairy yields. We already know of cases in which creamery suppliers have difficulties entering local road networks.

Material prices on the wholesale market for macadam and asphalt have escalated between 2008 and 2013. Bitumen emulsion, which is more commonly known as tar, is the liquid material applied to a road prior to the application of chippings. This product has also increased in price in the last two years. Prices have escalated since our troubles first became apparent. The price of stone has also increased. The upward trend in the price of bitumen based products from a base year of 2005 to the present has put significant pressure on shrinking budgets. The one factor that has seen a fall is the labour input due to decreased human resources and rates of pay. Generally, however, the materials required have increased in price.

How do we prioritise roads for investment? Volume of traffic is a critical factor. It makes sense that roads on which the majority of people commute to work are prioritised for investment to ensure the road surface meets a reasonable standard. Engineering inspections can be visual or based on limited testing by means of various devices to examine road conditions. This generally applies in the case of regional roads but local roads tend to be assessed on the basis of visual inspections for cracking, potholes, rutting and problems in the wheel tracks where heavy loading occurs. The maintenance cycle also involves a prioritisation exercise. For example, people in a particular county will know which roads have been treated over the period in question. There could be gaps of ten or 20 years during which roads were not treated. Local representation also plays an important role, whereby communities, elected representatives and others may be able to identify specific problems. These representations are noted and form part of the decision making matrix.

Members might not be aware that each local authority, probably on a three-year cycle, adopts a multi-annual programme. These programmes are approved and sent to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. That is the baseline for investment in the years ahead.

On the funding categories for regional and local roads, obviously regional roads are the priority because they carry the most traffic. They are also the lifeblood of most communities in the context of business, trade and tourism. Funding for these roads is provided by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport in respect of strengthening, surface dressing and discretionary maintenance. The latter involves maintaining drainage ditches, cutting back roadside vegetation and repairing defects. Unit rates and efficiency are a priority for strengthening and surface dressing. We must comply with particular unit rates that are specified and agreed with the Department.

Mr. John McLaughlin:

Mr. Mulholland referred to current practice in respect of prioritisation, etc. I am going to review some of the ongoing developments in which we and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport are involved throughout the country. The term "MapRoad" provided in the next slide relates to the overall platform for road management in respect of the regional and local road networks. Within that there is a pavement management system module. I wish to provide members with the American definition of what constitutes a pavement management system, namely, "a systematic method for routinely collecting, storing, and retrieving the kind of decision-making information needed to make maximum use of limited maintenance [moneys]". That definition lies at the forefront of all of this. We are moving towards an evidence-based system for assessment rating that complements the work to which Mr. Mulholland referred. The latter system was developed in Wisconsin, USA, but is being adapted for Irish conditions by the local authorities, the Department and some outside experts. It will come into force this year and it relies on standardised visual inspections which are supplemented by a certain amount of machine testing to validate the results. There is a scoring or rating system, with ten representing what is best. The system is quite simple, cost-effective, easy to use and practical. The road network throughout the entire country needs to be rated by the end of 2014. Significant work is already under way in this regard and we will see evidence of this later. Very good progress has been made with existing staff in local authorities.

Two people are required to operate the system. One drives the car and the other uses a hand-held device to record scores for the relevant road. In practical terms, a two-person team can cover approximately 150 km per day. In the context of Donegal, which has approximately 6,000 km of roads, the ten different areas into which it is divided can be covered by the various engineers in four full-time days. This could even be spread out over a longer period. As members can see, therefore, the system is quite practical. There are close to 100,000 km of roads throughout the country, so machine testing would not be needed and neither would it be practical or cost-effective. The visual rating system is very good for assessing roads, however.

I accept that the chart currently on screen is difficult to read but it provides the necessary information. At the very top of the chart, designated by the number 10 and the colour green, are the roads which are in first-class condition and which only require routine maintenance from time to time. At the very bottom of the chart, designated by the numbers 1, 2, 3 and 4, are those roads which require either completely new structural overlays or rebuilding. The challenge we face is to try to identify the latter roads to assess what might be done about them.

The next slide shows, in map form, what has been done to date in County Donegal. Members can see quite an amount of green on the map. There is a need to validate the work being done in this regard throughout the country in order that everyone will be on the same page in the context of their interpretations. Standardised training and manuals have been provided. The work will be validated during the next year or two to ensure a score of 8, for example, will mean the same thing in all counties.

The next slide contains a map of a particular electoral area in Donegal which shows the position in greater detail. Members can see there are quite a few blues and reds. It is possible to provide very good analysis in respect of the different scores and the number of kilometres involved. It is a good decision-making tool. Further developments are already under way in the context of, for example, assessing what would be required in terms of investment to improve a score of 7 to one of 8. There are many ways in which one can consider this matter and we hope the system will be well used in the future.

The next slide shows the MapRoad system on our road management tools function and illustrates how we are moving more towards technology. This is the accident database and the one on screen shows the position in south Tipperary. There is such a database for every county. Unfortunately, the system indicates that last year there were 162 fatalities on our roads. These are tracked through the Garda system and then transmitted to us. The red dots denote fatalities. This is a tool by means of which we can target improvements to where they are most needed.

The next slide shows the history of works in south Tipperary. Mr. Mulholland referred to the multi-annual programme. The work that is done and the year in which it is carried out is logged into the system and the various colours on the map show different roads that were done at different times. This is a useful tracking tool. If, after a number of years, there is a failure in respect of a road, it is possible to identify when the work was carried out and the materials that were used. This provides very good information. The provision of such information within the system is a requirement throughout the country.

The next slide shows the machine-mechanical surveys. This allows us to superimpose visual ratings onto the stretches of road that are tested by machine and to carry out comparisons. The machines rate more than just the visual condition of roads. They also take into account the roughness of the surface, skid resistance and a number of other factors. All of the information is superimposed and the most important ones are placed at the top. This assists in prioritisation.

The final slide shows the position with regard to bridges in Galway. Bridges are also logged into the system and rated. It is difficult to see on the screen but there are some bridges which are in very poor condition, which have been damaged, etc. They are all rated. Some of the bridges which form part of the regional and local road network are quite old and are in poor condition. Obviously, it is necessary that such bridges should be in a serviceable condition. Information on these bridges is contained in our system along with a number of other items.

The system involved is both very structured and evidence-based. There has been very good co-operation between local authorities and the Department in the context of seeing it through to completion. One of the beauties of it is that the scoring system is quite easy to use. People who use the system adapt to it very quickly. We expect it to be used much more in the future and to yield good results.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank our guests for their presentation, which answered many of the questions members may have wished to pose in respect of funding and the way in which projects are prioritised. Some of the new technology has obviously proven to be extremely helpful.

Before I open the floor to questions from members, I must apologise in advance for the fact that I will be obliged to leave in the next few minutes in order that I might make a contribution in the Dáil. Prior to doing so, I will pose a couple of questions. Obviously, the funding for local and regional roads comes from central government and local authorities also make a contribution. The figures appear to show that there is a major difference between the amounts contributed by the various local authorities. What is the reason for this? Will our guests provide a figure in respect of the actual upkeep of roads as distinct from that which relates to the upgrading of regional and local roads? They may have already provided that figure during their presentation but perhaps they might remind us of it.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank our guests for their presentation. It is difficult to see how we are going to maintain high standards in view of the cuts that have been imposed and the fact that funding has almost been halved since 2007. In the context of the €50 million provided by the Minister recently, will our guests outline how this money will be prioritised?

I had already heard about the rating system to which Mr. McLaughlin referred. How are roads on which many potholes can be found rated? The committee received a presentation from residents in County Meath who maintain that there are more potholes in their area than in any other locality throughout the country. I do not know if that is true but they certainly made a very strong case about the number of potholes in their area.

Some local authorities can raise funds more easily than others. The road structures in Donegal are much longer and its local authority would not have the same resources as a local authority in another county. How does the mechanism for getting the funding work? Does the authority have to make a special case for extra funding because of the road networks? I mention Donegal for a reason. The north west has a high percentage of accidents in general, and Donegal and Tyrone appear to have a much higher accident rate. In terms of the linkages, the north west has not had the same motorway provision as other regions but has that had a major effect? Ordinary local roads are used more in Donegal. It does not have the main carriageway. What is the witnesses' opinion of the size of the problem that is causing?

Regarding the maintenance of roads, in Waterford, Dublin city and such areas there are issues with ramps. I am aware special funding was given to Dublin City Council to deal with ramps not of a proper standard that literally disintegrated in the recent severe winters. Have the witnesses experienced that in their areas?

The local authority contribution has been reducing, and the contribution from the witnesses' organisation has been reducing also. They will get certain powers to raise money under the property tax measure. Will that help them in future in terms of meeting some of the road improvement targets in their areas?

What unforeseen problems do the witnesses envisage arising? We cannot predict weather in the future but do we have a reserve to deal with problems? We have had to have stockpiles of salt and so on in the past. Do the witnesses have a contingency plan to deal with that?

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses might answer the first two sets of questions. Deputy Harrington, Senator Mooney and Deputy Phelan have indicated. I will ask Deputy Walsh to take the Chair shortly, and if other members wish to speak, they might indicate that. Mr. Walsh might wish to take these questions.

Mr. Michael Walsh:

We will share them, if the Vice Chairman does not mind. In terms of the variation in the overall local funding, the reality is that the capacity of different local authorities varies significantly. The rates base, for example, is a significant player in that. Many rural counties would struggle in terms of having the financial capacity, and they have many so-called "have to" spends, be it in the water area or other contracted areas. The capacity varies dramatically across the country. The members will not find a manager or any elected body of councillors in the country who would not wish to spend more on their roads, but the reality is that the capacity is not there. The capacity to increase funding, for example, does not exist and has not existed in reality for the past three or four years and, as a consequence, there is that variation. That is a reality driven by simple financial circumstances.

We are not entirely clear, as of yet, about the influence of the property tax. The local authority system would welcome the capacity for local communities to contribute and to help decision-making in terms of the level of investment. In terms of the dependence on Exchequer funding for road maintenance, there is a myth that local authorities do the road maintenance. The reality is that for the past 15 years the ratio of Exchequer to local funding has been approximately seven or eight to one. Currently it is probably down to a ratio of four or five to one or three or four to one. Historically, there has been a dependence on Exchequer funding. In terms of our current capacity, the necessary spend per annum is in the region of €500 million to €600 million. There will be consequences three, four or five years down the line. It takes a period of time for that to show. We have been lucky that there has been reasonable investment during the Celtic tiger years, if I can use that phrase. That is standing us in good stead at the moment but there is pressure and a build-up of potential that is negative, and our opinion is that will demonstrate itself three, four or five years from now.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On the figures before us, counties that are similar to each other would have a very different spend as a local contribution. How would that emerge? In terms of the other figures, the smallest spend or contribution from the local authority seems to be in the rural counties. One would imagine that the rural counties would have a higher number of local and regional roads.

Mr. Michael Walsh:

It is just that. It depends on the level of commitment in other areas as well. Anything from water funding to all the other commitments in other areas can sometimes have a bearing on the capacity. The reality is that the rural counties have a very small rates base generally in relative terms. They depend on the local government fund for the majority of their funding. The other reality is that that funding has been decreasing significantly in recent years. The capacity varies with the counties but I assure the Vice Chairman that there is not a manager or elected body that would not choose to put more resources into the roads area if they had the capacity.

Mr. John Mulholland:

To answer the Vice Chairman's question on the amount of money purely for upkeep, out of the approximately €350 million allocated this year, there is approximately €77 million from the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport for what is known as upkeep. One would have to add to that another sum of approximately €80 million or €90 million from local authorities, which rounds off at approximately €160 million per annum across the State for ordinary upkeep.

Regarding Deputy Ellis's question about the €50 million announced last week, local authorities have not been advised yet as to where that money will be allocated, but I expect it will be along the lines of the traditional divvy-up in regard to restoration, improvement and some discretionary maintenance.

Mr. John McLaughlin:

I will pick up on Deputy Ellis's other questions. He spoke about the rating system for potholes. From what the Deputy described, it is a severely potholed road. Members cannot see the chart but I will read out some of the ratings. Rating number 2, which is second from the bottom, describes a road with many potholes on which it is very difficult to drive. That progresses up to where between 10% and 30% of the road would have defects. I will pass around the chart later, and if the Deputy looks at pages 46 and 47, he will be able to determine whether those ratings fit the type of road he is describing. That should give him the rating. The key is getting people around the country on the consistent rating system. There is no point in one county purposely scoring high or low. That is why independent auditing and some machine testing is done to validate. We will pass around the chart later and the Deputy can see from pages 46 and 47 where the road he describes fits in.

The Deputy spoke about the mechanism for extra funding. Mr. Mulholland spoke about the usual divvy-up, to use his word. From time to time we have compiled reports, even before this system of rating, of the condition of our roads as people see them and sometimes seek additional funding based on the condition. We did it after the two recent severe winters and made submissions to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and so forth. While some money was released under that, it is difficult to tie the two together with delegations lobbying Government and so on. It is difficult to get extra money at a time when money is not readily available. That is acknowledged. It comes down to making the most of what we have available.

In recent years the Department has offered extra flexibility in terms of using grant headings in a different manner to deal with the worst problems and perhaps bring roads up to a serviceable condition as opposed to a very good condition. Mr. Mulholland spoke about the €50 million. I understand that if necessary some flexibility will be afforded for us to revisit the programme we outlined. This is all subject to providing adequate justification for making a change, which is sensible enough.

Deputy Ellis spoke about the north west and I acknowledge the high level of accidents, although it has reduced over the past year. We have a special, small countrywide programme which is prioritised based on the number of fatalities, with scores assigned, to tackle the worst black spots in the country. It runs alongside the bigger programmes and is intended to fix, within reason, locations which are of particular danger. Linkage to the north west is a major issue because there is no motorway access, no rail link and limited air links. Regional access to the north west is very limited and this affects our future with regard to economic development and jobs. It is a burning issue. We are hopeful the motorway from Derry to Dublin will get the go-ahead. With regard to using local roads for local access, it is true one uses the roads one has. We focus most of our moneys on regional roads, and national roads have their own programme.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a contingency fund of any description, or is it that if something happens the local authority goes to the Government?

Mr. Michael Walsh:

There is no contingency fund. With regard to winter maintenance and reserves and stockpiles of salt, my local authority, the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and the NRA have procured salt supplies in recent years. We have a stockpile of salt and I am satisfied we are in a healthy position in the case of events such as those which occurred two and three years ago. However, this takes a slice from our roads funding. We have had to up our standards and this has come at a cost with regard to the routine restoration or maintenance of roads.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses. I have great sympathy for the managers with regard to health and safety legislation because the buck stops with them. They could be before a judge on a criminal matter before they knew where they were. It is a very pressured and difficult environment in which to work. It would have been helpful if Engineers Ireland or an engineer had come before the committee to discuss this matter because roads are not the only function of the managers. They run local authorities and roads are a part of it.

The lack of national infrastructure in the north west was mentioned. I live in the south west and I must travel ten miles before I access a national road and then the motorway. We do not have a rail system or an airport. Cork Airport and Kerry Airport are 70 miles and 80 miles away, respectively. I am familiar with many of the regional, local and tertiary roads in Cork. Ideally, roads are not laid down, they are built. The best roads I travel on have foundations and were built from scratch and maintenance is less of an issue. For decades, money and funds in the country was tight and then we had the Celtic tiger. What is the opinion of the witnesses on how we dealt with building roads rather than continually laying surface on roads with no foundations? If the clock could be turned back, would they do it differently?

What is the relationship of the management in the organisation and various local authorities with Engineers Ireland and the director of services or county engineer? My impression is that engineers come with a very large bill which must be shoehorned into the funding available. At any stage did Engineers Ireland or the engineering sector put forward the idea of continually putting two layers of tar and chip on top of roads which do not have adequate foundations is the way to go? Is it necessary because of a funding issue? What if somebody had taken a decision 30 years ago to rebuild the roads infrastructure as opposed to resurfacing it every summer? From travelling around I know one can be thrown left, right and centre in a car. Truck and van drivers have complained ad nauseam that certain roads have deteriorated not because they have not been dealt with by engineers or local authorities, but because they have no foundations. This is a fundamental issue with regard to local and regional roads. Has any assessment been done? If the witnesses agree this is a problem, do we have a way to measure its scale? Do we have a figure on how much it would cost to put it right?

I welcome the progress made and I apologise for missing the beginning of the presentation. I welcome the initiative taken and the technology used to identify and recognise where roads are satisfactory or in need of attention. Various engineers would have had this information in their offices, but for decision making it is now in one place and I look forward to standardisation. I presume the purpose of the exercise is to have standardisation throughout the country, whereby the idiosyncrasies of what individual engineers believe is required are removed and a standard and uniform approach is taken to road reconstruction and maintenance.

Do the witnesses have a view on the investment in our motorways which has taken place in the past two decades? It has been significant and has sucked up a very large amount of resources. It is welcome and we have a fantastic motorway system, albeit all leading to Dublin. Do the witnesses agree it has sucked investment from rural areas? Will it lead to a problem with road fatigue? Have we factored in how the motorways will be overlaid, whether in five or 15 years time? Have we factored in significant extra investment to maintain standards and safety in our motorway system?

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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The point has been made about the rates base. I come from County Leitrim and I suggest the road network in Leitrim, which has very few national secondary roads, is superb. It amazes me that our road network seems to be of a significantly higher standard than that of many other counties, including those around us. I am curious to know why this inconsistency exists. It cannot just be about the rates base. Does it have to do with the priorities of county managers or engineers? Do county managers speak to each other about what they do?

On a related point, most people from the North take a certain road south through the midlands. I take it regularly. The thought was put into my head when south Tipperary appeared on the screen. The road runs from Athlone to Ferbane and Cloghan, where one cuts off for Borrisokane. It must be the worst road. It was built in Famine times and I doubt that a penny has been spent on it since. Why is there not more consistency between local authorities as regards spinal roads such as this one? They are essential for smooth and efficient transport.

In the context of the councils' overall funding, are they concerned about the standard of our road network? We seem to have reverted to the 1980s, the time of the last economic recession. As those who remember it know, it took 20 years for local authorities to return to where they had been before the 1980s, given the lack of money available for road maintenance. Is the councils' concern being relayed to the Government? Like me, I am sure that our guests do not want to hear that there is no money in the kitty. Money can always be found, particularly for investments of this nature. It is not like investing in a service - it is a question of the country's future. What are our guests' collective opinion in this regard, what lobbying are they doing and how effective have they been in convincing the Government of the requirement to spend more on road maintenance? Otherwise, we will need to rebuild roads, as Deputy Harrington stated. If councils continue to be starved of funding in this regard, we will be back to square one in another 20 years.

Ann Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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I wish to raise similar issues. I welcome the association's initiative, which will lead to a standardisation across the country.

In terms of heavy loads, what effect do quarries have on our roads and is there any initiative to ameliorate some of the damage?

I welcome the prioritisation. The score sheet seems to be an evidence-based approach to each road's treatment and requirements. That there would eventually be a database of every road in the country and the condition of same is welcome. It has been mentioned that traffic volume is critical. Perhaps our guests can allay my concerns in this regard. When we discuss roads with people, we get the most grief from those living on tertiary roads. In this context, local improvement schemes and community involvement in roadworks, CIR, schemes seem to be the way to go. What is the status of such schemes? Are the councils making provision for them or have we moved to a minimum safe distance approach that is, that the roads are just about able to exist?

The economic situation presents difficulties. Mention was made of budgetary flexibility. Can more flexibility be achieved? What autonomy will the councils have to dedicate local property tax, LPT, moneys to the roads?

What effect do oil prices have on the cost of the road materials that the councils use? Even a slight increase seems to have a considerable effect. Are the councils satisfied that the Department understands that there may be a problem if we do not maintain our roads to a certain standard?

Brian Walsh (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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In recent months, the creation of a version of the community employment, CE, scheme dealing with maintenance and drainage issues has been discussed. Would the councils be happy to engage with such a scheme? Has any work been done in this regard and how would the local authorities and the association react? Would the association embrace the recent proposal on a community involvement scheme? Has it any merit?

Mr. Michael Walsh:

I do not know how to split the many far-reaching questions. I will take them in the round, after which there may be time for my colleagues to comment.

Brian Walsh (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Mr. Michael Walsh:

We might not even agree on each issue, but let us see how this goes.

To address Deputy Harrington's questions, the three of us are engineers. We have been through the mill as area engineers. I was an area engineer in the 1980s when there was no money. Potholes and so on caused many sleepless nights. There were no resources. We are not quite at that point yet, but there is a risk of reaching it in three, four or five years. We have given our key message to the Government and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, the officials of which share it. Indeed, the Minister also shares it on balance. In terms of Exchequer funding, the question is how to cut the cake at national level. I understand that the Department shares our opinion, in that the current level of funding is probably only 50% of what is required to maintain the road network. This situation is tolerable for one, two or three years, but there will come a transition to the doomsday scenario described by Senator Mooney, after which the curve in terms of the amount of money needed to recover will increase. This risk must be addressed in the next year or two if we are not to create a negative demand scenario.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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It would cost more in the long term.

Mr. Michael Walsh:

Yes. I used the term "a stitch in time". Although it is lay man's language, that is the situation.

Regarding the approach taken to infrastructure in the Celtic tiger years, I appreciate that the length of our road network presented a difficulty for the political system as much as it did for engineers and managers. We inherited it from the time of the horse and cart in some respects. The benefit of the interventions during the Celtic tiger period are evident in the ratings. Many rural roads were strengthened with substantial foundations, which is the language used by Deputy Harrington. Some of the roads that were corrected in this way are now taking heavy loads, for example, milk tankers, but were a skin of stone and built for the horse and cart. We have recovered somewhat. Other interventions cannot be made and mapped until some foundation work has been done.

Our regional road network was left in a better place by the Celtic tiger. Many tarmacadam-based interventions were made in regional roads. This is manifesting itself in the rating and testing. I am not claiming that every pound was spent necessarily or correctly, but there has been a dividend. If we did not have it, we would be in a very poor place. We could not sustain the current level of maintenance spending and the deterioration would be more obvious.

Investment in motorways is a public policy decision. From our point of view, motorways serve the highest levels of traffic. In this regard, an advantage of the new construction is that there is no immediate maintenance cost.

The immediate cost of maintenance, the structural overlays - described by the Deputy as built roads - are designed for 20 and 30 year life cycles. Strengthening and other substantially costly interventions will come 20 years down the road, rather than in the next five or ten years. We all hope we will be in a better place then.

However, there is a small issue in terms of the standard of maintenance. The NRA is moving that project to contract and there will be very significant maintenance standards for motorways, which comes at a cost. Again, in terms of detecting most of the traffic, the majority of our visitors use motorways, for example, and on balance I would say that is the right approach. Ultimately, it still is a big cake that has to be cut and yet, because the cake is not big enough, the issue of prioritisation remains.

I appreciate I am not answering the point on consistency between local authorities satisfactorily. I would not know the detail on Leitrim versus the neighbouring authority, for example. There can be any number of reasons for the situation there. Historical road conditions or investment going back 20 years could have a bearing on the condition of a road. If that foundation or investment had been made 20 years ago a section of road could be otherwise. At some level we can accept the accusation of some lack of consistency across boundaries - I would accept and acknowledge that - but what we are trying to do as a sector through the Lutz committee and others is what Mr. McLaughlin was outlining, namely, to start highlighting that. This will be a very transparent system - it will give indications on ratings and scoring, will be very visible across county boundaries and once we reach that point it will be available to the public generally, to elected Members and local members. That will help in terms of consistency. In terms of issues such as winter maintenance we have greatly improved consistency. One will not find gritting, salting and such items breaking down at county boundary lines. Again, it is about reaching standards but it comes at a cost.

I refer to lobbying for more money, which we are doing. I will address one final point, the community employment schemes, and then leave the rest to my colleagues. As a sector, we would be very clearly of the view that we are happy to be working with a labour activation scheme. We would be very happy to take significant numbers into routine road maintenance areas but let us be clear there are issues with the unions in terms of allowing that to happen. We would see drainage, for example, as an imperative in this area and would believe it should happen in current circumstances almost as a moral scenario.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Walsh hopeful for agreement on this? He is right, it is a key area.

Mr. Michael Walsh:

Not at the moment but we are clear in our view it should happen. We would welcome it and work with it. In current circumstances, for example, in regard to the community involvement scheme, we are very happy to work with anything that will bring additional resources. That resource does not have to be money. For example, many members of the farming community have a resource in terms of plant and machinery. We will work with any local communities to try to bring added value to the overall pot, such are the current circumstances. As a society and a community we need to do that and we broadly take that view. I apologise for rambling.

Mr. John Mulholland:

I will cover some of the points Mr. Walsh did not get to and will try to do so as quickly as possible. Deputy Harrington asked if we have carried out an assessment of the amount of investment required on regional roads - the answer is "Yes". A report was finalised last year which indicated that 39% of the country's regional roads required structural intervention. The cost can vary so I cannot give a figure but, as a percentage, that figure seems about right. If one looks at the soils classification map of the country it gives a large clue as to what areas will be susceptible to road failure. That is simply an engineering principle and fact. We all regard investment in motorways as being very profound, one that will have dividend and yield in the years ahead, not alone for driver safety, which is already to the fore, but also in regard to consistency of transport of goods and people around the State.

Senator Mooney asked if we were concerned about the standard of the road network. Yes, we are, and we continually make representations in that regard and present cases to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and the National Roads Authority. The two examples the Senator cited were about standards. One might come from a very high standard of road to a lesser one which can be a difficulty for drivers, in particular for people who are unfamiliar with the area, given the road depreciation. That is picked up under low-cost accident remediation works in many cases. There has been a significant investment there.

I refer to Deputy Phelan's queries on the co-operation we have with quarries, forestry owners and the like. We all know those various employers are going through difficult periods and margins are tight. However, we do try to establish codes of practice with them in regard to the roads they use, asking them to use the proper ones even though it might mean a couple of miles out of the way - depending on where one is, it could be 15 miles in some counties. We ask them to use the better roads to get in and harvest their timber or take out their stone material. It is not always easy. Sometimes they sub-contract the driving duties, and so on, but we continually try to establish that link with them.

Traffic volume is critical. I take the Deputy's point about class 3 roads and local communities but that also comes into the equation. Over the past ten years in particular there may be families settled in an area who have schoolgoing children at bus routes and this is factored in, in terms of representations on top of the engineering inspection conditions.

Are we satisfied with the flexibility? We have written to the Department and the NRA for the past two years regarding flexibility. That was reciprocated with a positive response in January in the roads grant allocation, something we were very glad to see. It allows councils at this time, when money is not really available, to apply lower-cost solutions to attend to immediate difficulties. We know there is an underlying issue with some structural deficits. I point out to Deputy Harrington that even the best built roads in the world need to be maintained on a regular basis. For example, roads in the United States that were built to a very high standard in the 1950s are suffering huge degradation at present.

The Chairman's question referred to community involvement in roadwork schemes. I would regard that as a most beneficial programme that must be sustained. It varies from county to county as to how much local communities and councils avail of it but once it is applied, and people get to know the system, there is value for money and local solutions can be applied in a more timely fashion than would happen while waiting under a roads programme. We see it as something that needs to be maintained. Certainly in our experience it is a very good scheme.

Mr. John McLaughlin:

I have some comments on what Deputy Harrington noted. It was a very reasonable question - why not rebuild all the roads to full standard? It is really down to cost. While everybody would love that, it would not be possible to pay for it in its entirety within one or two generations. As part of examining the system we looked at what has been going on in some other countries, with some outside help from people who have worked in Wales, Scotland, New Zealand and the United States, as Mr. Mulholland mentioned. I worked on the roads in the US for 13 years so I am quite familiar with the situation there. No developed country can rebuild all its roads within a generation or two. What some people consider at times of little money is that although the highest standard cannot be achieved for all roads, it is possible to do more to reach a reasonable standard. That is counter to what the Deputy said but there is a balance. This system will give us those options in time and then it will be a matter of making decisions - what do we want to do? Do we want to spend €4 million per km, or spend €100,000 per km and do 40 km? Those are trade-offs and require information and options and for the implications to be clear for those making the decisions. That is all I will say on that point.

Senator Mooney mentioned Leitrim, which is close to Donegal so I might as well comment. I would know some of the Leitrim roads and I share the Senator's view. In fairness, when we look at the maps of places in the country we have done so far there is quite a bit of green. That is a snapshot in time. If one did nothing, a point Mr. Mulholland made, those green areas would deteriorate more and more. It is a matter of what can be done to hold them. The scoring system we have will, hopefully, bring consistency. Ultimately, the big decision is whether money should follow the bad roads or be given out under traditional practices. Those are the decisions ahead of us as a country.

Mr. Mulholland answered the point about heavy loads. In fairness, cars do not damage roads with their weight. Rather it is the heavy vehicles.

There is a balance between companies trying to make money, business and jobs, as well as urban and rural concerns. Mr. Mulholland spoke of a code of practice and that is the best and most reasonable way to go. It will never be a perfect world for everybody.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Is the same standard of road surface agreed across the country? It seems to be inconsistent, as some counties use bitmac and others use chippings. Why is there an impression of inconsistency? Surely it would be more sensible to adopt the most efficient type of road surfacing.

Mr. John McLaughlin:

Everybody works to the same NRA road works specification across the country but different materials can be selected from within those. The best of these would be hot-rolled asphalt, as seen on national roads, which requires a firm base and a good foundation. It cannot be put on roads liable to settlement because it cracks. Although it is the best and most expensive, it would not be useful to put it somewhere it does not last. Dropping down a level would bring us to bitmac, or dense bitumen macadam, with surface dressing of tar and chips. That is the next grade and it is a bit cheaper; it also has more flexibility and goes a bit further. The lower grades would be referred to as wet mix with surface dressing, which goes even further and is more pliable. That is used to a greater extent on local roads. That is the reason we see differences between motorways and national, regional, local and tertiary roads, although they all operate to the same specification. We should also mention the issue of keeping water off roads, which is very important, especially for unbound materials.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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It has been a fantastic engineering presentation. Although I thought we would have managers, we have engineers, and the session has been very informative. That may be facetious. Where local authority managers have come from an engineering background, do they dedicate more resources to roads?

Mr. Michael Walsh:

I would not think so. We are on the transportation committee but it is accidental that we come from an engineering background. We are conscious of the particular needs and demands of asset investment, and not just for us. It could be related to water, sewerage or other areas, although there is a transition at the moment. The current fiscal environment - local as much as national - is controlling choices greatly. Managers are often accused that we present budgets and estimates to the elected members on a council but we do so with the view of having them passed, so we have regard to members' views, which operate along a continuum. It is about capacity more than anything else and the current fiscal environment does not allow for more resources being allocated to roads.

Different councils and managers may have different priorities and economic development, for example, is a key priority. Every manager would share the concern that if we do not keep the infrastructure right in some way, we will not have economic development, either in rural or urban settings. We need to keep a basic level. Members have mentioned forestry and quarries, which are all part of economic development. Our function is to keep roads as arteries primarily for societal use but they must also serve economic development. We genuinely try to prioritise on that basis.

Brian Walsh (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Walsh, Mr. McLaughlin and Mr. Mulholland for their time and for sharing their expertise. We now have a great understanding of the challenges they face and there is greater clarity on many of the issues this committee must address.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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If it is appropriate, I suggest we support the County and City Managers Association in calling for more resources in so far as is practicable to ensure there is a standard of maintenance for the long-term interests of the country's infrastructure. There was a specific point about the use of community employment schemes and there is a trade union issue. Without reopening the debate, I believe I am right in arguing that the trade union's view would be that it is the council's obligation to provide staff. We are in a new environment and in the rural areas from where most of us come, there are people willing and able to work on community employment schemes, so it is a no-brainer that there should be some sort of accommodation between unions and local authorities. Could we have a role in that regard in urging participating parties to come together on the issue?

Brian Walsh (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is appropriate to write to the Minister to advise him of some of the concerns.

Ann Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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The Minister for Social Protection has a large role to play in that.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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We should encourage the parties to come together and reach an agreed solution in the interests of the country's infrastructure.

Brian Walsh (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We will do that.