Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Thursday, 16 May 2013

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement

Domestic Violence: Discussion

12:20 pm

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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On behalf of the committee I welcome Ms Marie Brown from Foyle Women's Aid. Ms Jo Corcoran is here as well. No doubt they made the trip down this morning from Derry.

We look forward to the presentation, particularly on its work. Afterwards members will make a few observations and may ask questions. The committee would be delighted to hear the input of the delegation.

Before I invite the witnesses to make their presentation, I advise them that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of utterances at this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease to make remarks on a particular matter but continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter to only a qualified privilege in respect of their remarks. They are directed that only comments and evidence related directly to the subject matter of this meeting are to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call on Ms Marie Brown to proceed with her opening statement.

12:30 pm

Ms Marie Brown:

Much that has been spoken, in terms of the armed conflict in the North, primarily centred around paramilitary and State violence. Victims have spoken movingly of their stories, their quest for justice and justice denied. Horrific as this violence was, and continues to be in some cases, there is another masked and hidden violence. Thousands of victims have gone to Rape Crisis Centres, counselling, Women's Aid and other organisations because they suffered horrendous domestic and sexual abuse. They are victims of hidden crimes or what the UN Security Council Resolution 1325 refers to as a political crime.

We refer to this type of violence as being hidden. It is generally and inadequately reflected in the reporting of crime statistic figures in the North. Over the years piecemeal research has been conducted in the North. Some years ago the National Women's Council, in conjunction with Foyle Women's Aid, held public conferences on the issue and called it the "other violence". There was little support or awareness of what these women and children had to go through.

Today, I sent the committee a presentation on the family justice centre and Foyle Women's Aid is keen to commence the project on the island of Ireland. I supplied as much information as I could in the presentation and I am happy to answer questions. We want to open a Family Justice Centre because there are still many barriers to justice for women, children and men in the North. The proposed family justice centre would also cater for men.

We have a legacy of policing being housed in large buildings that are inaccessible or intimidating and are under threat of attack by dissident groups. There is no normality of services and the buildings can prevent families from approaching them. Sometimes people are intimidated and threatened by communities if they seek justice or take their cases through the natural processes that take place anywhere else. Sometimes the politics of the North takes precedence over domestic violence services. For example, a dissident threat or something that happens at a political level leads to all of the domestic violence services disappearing on those days.

Domestic violence impacts on young people and families. Domestic violence can lead to certain behaviour in many young people that needs support. They need help to deal with the matter. Unfortunately, some of these young people are dealt with in a very violent fashion within communities. It has become common for some of our young people to be led up lanes and shot in their knees. People accept that as being okay and view it as normal. We need to address some of the issues of anti-social behaviour in other ways and get rid of such violent behaviour.

All services provided to all victims must be professional and all of the professionals must sing off the same hymn sheet. Sexual violence also needs to be addressed. There has been a gap in services throughout the 30 years of violence. Women have told Women's Aid about sexual violence that they could not speak about before. We need to examine how to provide them with a service. Many of the cases in the courts are historical ones that happened 30 years ago.

All family violence damages individuals, families and communities. Investing in communities without tackling domestic terrorism, which in itself destroys communities and families, means that we do not have peace. We cannot have peace without tackling the matter. My group seeks the support of the committee to develop the first family justice centre in Ireland and to work in partnership with the South. I hope that we can further develop the project. We have already signed up with the European Alliance and I shall visit the US at the end of June. We have also signed up with the US Alliance and hope that Ireland will be included in the provision of services that will be developed in Europe and the US.

I thank the committee and hope that it will support me in starting to address the violent culture in Ireland, to stop it flourishing any further and to achieve some meaningful peace in the North. I am open to answering any questions.

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Brown. Does Ms Corcoran wish to speak? Does she wish to wait until after the members?

Ms Jo Corcoran:

Let the members speak first.

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I call on Deputy Brendan Smith. I wish to acknowledge that he was our point of contact for the group attending today.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Like the Chairman, I welcome Ms Brown and Ms Corcoran and compliment them on their work in their local communities. Their presence today has helped to create a greater awareness of very difficult issues among public representatives and, hopefully, the wider society. Ms Brown mentioned issues that confront many individuals and families. She also mentioned that "hidden" violence is not adequately reported. If issues are not adequately reported or there is a lack of awareness then they will not be tackled. Therefore, it is important that the delegation had this opportunity, and has the same opportunity at other fora, to outline the difficulties, challenges and the need to provide adequate services for people.

I accept the excellent point made by Ms Brown that sometimes people who are vulnerable or in difficult circumstances are reluctant to go to an institutional building that is associated with a major State and statutory organisation. I presume that when she talked about a family justice centre that she was talking about services being provided in a more supportive environment. Did she mean that there should be a service for the community, not just a State imposed service? Does she want a family justice centre to be in one building and providing a number of services ranging from health to other supports? Does she want it modelled on another family justice centre? Having read the presentation I understood that the family justice centre would be the first of its kind in Europe? Did she model it on another centre? Is it a greenfield idea by the group?

Obviously adequate funding should be provided. I presume that some services are already being provided by the State. Does Ms Brown hope to bring them in under the family justice centre umbrella? If so, there would be better co-ordination and outturn from the point of view of the service provider and the service recipient. Another tranche of funding will be available from PEACE IV programme to deal with issues and legacy issues. Ms Brown mentioned legacy cases and that some of the incidents were 30 years old or older. Has the group sought funding for new facilities or whatever from the special European Union programme? I have listened to the presentation.

It is the sort of project we should support that would make a difference on a daily basis to people who are obviously in a difficult position.

I compliment Ms Browne and Ms Corcoran on their work, which is very important, in an area that must be adequately resourced. I come across domestic violence as a representative of a large rural constituency like Cavan-Monaghan but not to the extent that might happen in more urban areas. That is the make-up of the constituency but there are incidents of domestic violence, although not to the extent outlined today.

12:40 pm

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses to the committee. It is disturbing to hear them talking about violent activities in such terms. Presumably, however, levels have reduced, although it still happens. Has there been a reduction or a recent increase? That is a real concern.

I am not up to speed on the situation in Northern Ireland but I presume there is mandatory reporting so if people approach the organisation, it must report to the police. How does that affect the group's work? I remember the principal of a small primary school saying to me once that if she started mandatory reporting in her area, she would have to close the school because everyone is related. The culture has changed since I had that conversation but I wonder how it works now.

How would the centre function? Is it a therapeutic space and how would people access it? Would it be similar to a citizens' advice clinic?

Again, I welcome the witnesses. It is good they are here and that this work is progressing.

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I also welcome the group and thank the women for the presentation and commend them on the work they are doing. I too would like to hear other examples of what the group wants for this family justice centre. Are there similar examples in other jurisdictions? What services would it offer? Would it be a law centre or would broader services be available? In Australia at one stage there were proposals for family relationship centres but the idea was to move some family law out of the courts for mediation. I do no know how they transpired but I was very interested at the time. When it is possible to negotiate, that is the way forward.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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It would be interesting to hear the project costs as well.

Photo of Seán CroweSeán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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In my constituency there is a women's refuge. Deputy Smith mentioned this perhaps being more common in urban areas but I do not know if that is the case, although I am certainly aware of it. I recently dealt with a family where the partner had a serious crack cocaine drug problem. The house was being turned into a crack house, there were children there, domestic violence, and people were coming in to intimidate others and to look for money for drugs, and guns were being produced. It is similar to some of the worst cases the group has dealt with in its own centre. There was a difficulty, however, in trying to rehouse the woman in a refuge and after a time she wanted to move back into the house. There were no support services and she was literally moving back into a tip with young children and very little support for basic services like having the door fixed. If these support services were in place it would be a massive help, with a one-stop-shop for services that would give people more confidence to escape this situation. It is a visionary idea in that sense. How would it impact on existing services and how would they be complementary? Would it pull the services into the centre or would it be additional to them?

How can connections be made for training on a North-South basis? Funding is the difficult area. The centre will be based in a relatively old building so I presume that could cause some problems. Is it a safe and secure area? We are talking about figures of up to 1,000 cases per month but would that be for throughout the North? Would they all be directed to this centre?

Ms Marie Brown:

It would be throughout an area.

Photo of Seán CroweSeán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Is the organisation looking for support from us to secure European funding? Will there be accommodation and will it be on a long-term or short-term basis?

I am on a committee that is looking at human trafficking and the North is no different from the South on this issue, with young vulnerable women being exploited. Would the centre be a safe location for them? This could help to secure resources for the centre. The committee is looking at relations between Ireland and Britain and how to maximise resources and services to help overcome the difficulties these women and their families are facing.

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the members for their contributions. How heightened is the dissident threat that Ms Brown mentioned? An all-Ireland centre was also mentioned. Has any location been chosen? How advanced is planning on this?

Ms Marie Brown:

I will start and if I leave anything out, I am sure members will let me know. The family justice centre will offer existing services, so it does not displace any services, but they will be collocated in the old convent building. The idea is that everyone will be trained and while they will have different professions, we will all have the same approach. Research has shown that families must make as many as 23 visits to other agencies when domestic or sexual violence first occurs. They get worn out and that is a barrier to their coming forward. Having the agencies in place and making the agencies do the work instead of the victims has been shown to be more successful.

I first saw that model seven years ago in New York.

In New York I was part of a community builder programme, which is a peace building programme. I saw the programme in operation and was instantly attracted because it was working in a diverse city with many communities. I was also attracted to it because of the difficulties we were experiencing in Northern Ireland where some communities will not go forward to the police either because of the past or because they felt intimidated. The services were not working for a range of other reasons but other models are available. The family justice centre will sign up to a partnership with a centre in San Diego where the main training academy for family justice centres in the United States is located. When I visited New York, one family justice centre was in place and a second one was in development. There are now six family justice centres in New York, one in each borough, and they are being established elsewhere. For example, five other European countries, including Germany, are starting to develop family justice centres. We will sign up to a partnership with these centres and we hope to receive some European funding to help us develop something in the North.

If we have one centre on the island, we will have a place to bring people. It would be possible to provide joint training for staff and various agencies. I do not know how this would develop but given the very tight budgets, we could certainly do much more in terms of sharing some of the things around domestic violence and adopting existing models rather than inventing new ones or paying for different training. We have already established links to a group in Galway. The family justice centres work very well because satellite clinics can be established in rural areas where people do not have the same supports as people in urban areas. We will have to take an innovative approach. We have developed Internet and texting services and women are starting to contact us through the Internet. For example, we use Skype, social media and so forth to try to reach families who would be difficult to reach otherwise.

In terms of the trafficking of women, our centre has been designated one of the centres to provide accommodation and services for trafficked women. We work with the Executive to provide these services and trafficked women come into the centre. All of those who come to us at present do so on referral from the police. Like everything else, when one starts to work in a certain area, one realises that there is a problem. In the case of trafficking, we are starting to realise that it exists. Trafficked women receive automatic support in the centre through an inter-agency approach. We hope to be able to provide free legal advice and obtain funding for an on-the-day big barrier for women. People seem to forget about women who are working or are on limited budgets. The legal process can be very expensive and receiving good advice on what one's options are immediately and knowing what is available can reduce confusion and remove the need for running around. For this reason, it is important for agencies to work together to decide how to provide help and support.

Ms Corcoran had a meeting with our "Voices" group and one of the main issues that arose was social security and the blockages and barriers facing working women, for example, those who have a house to sell and do not have money to live on. Agencies must come together and share resources if they are to work more effectively. In our case, one agency at a time will deal with a family and all the agencies know what the others are doing. It is a poor use of resources to have six agencies becoming involved in one family simultaneously and then all of them moving on at the same time.

Our centre is a build to invest scheme. It is located in a convent in Derry which is a listed, protected building. Derry is the City of Culture 2013. The centre is in the city centre which means any woman can walk in while shopping. We selected the location because it is neutral and we are open to all creeds. We plan to have an exhibition centre to celebrate women's contribution in Northern Ireland and other issues. The exhibition centre, like the coffee shop, will operate as a social economy business and all of the proceeds will go to families.

We are examining how to get families into back to work schemes. We have a training agency and a business plan has been done with PricewaterhouseCoopers. Two partners from London were so interested in work that they made a commitment to provide volunteers for five years to help us with some of our work.

I referred to under-reporting of domestic violence. Derry has the highest rate of reporting in Northern Ireland because we reviewed services and took a creative approach to how we reach women.

In terms of housing, we have built 16 houses on the site and we have another site with nine apartments. The women will be housed at these locations. This was done on a business model under which we acquired land, negotiated with government and resold it. We have a treatment centre, which will open in Derry in September. I invite members to visit the centre, which will offer programmes and courses as well as child care facilities. We will receive direct referrals from social services and we also have workers in one of the police stations. This is how we receive referrals of sexual violence cases. The model is based on a model I observed in Boston. Women may not speak about rape to police officers but many will speak to women's advocates on site in a police station. We are required by law to report crimes and we inform women that we must report any crimes to the police. Increasingly, women are starting to come forward. Our criminal justice workers are available to support the families in question in the process. One of the major shortcomings of the process is that women tend to fall out of the process if they are not kept fully informed or if supports are withdrawn.

There is also a great deal of intimidation. The dissident threat is alive and well. In some communities in Northern Ireland it is not considered acceptable for people to go forward to the police. Those who do so will feel intimidated and threatened. We have to get past this obstacle. This is the reason I would like to bring the police in with other agencies. Derry has the only domestic violence unit in Northern Ireland. Having campaigned for and secured this unit, I would like the police who are involved in it to work alongside their colleagues in social services and victim support. There is no limit to what we want. Whatever needs women identify, we want them to be made available. The domestic violence unit is already in place; it is simply a matter of providing a place for it in the building. The statutory agencies' role is to pay the rent and maintain the building. We would have victim support and the different agencies in place.

There are still dissident and community threats. Some of this involves the obvious physical threat from dissidents, while in other respects it is a much more cloaked threat. One needs to be careful where one puts money into communities. We need to ensure communities do not start to deal with these issues alone. These problems must not be buried in communities as this would create ghettos in which the problems would become worse. That is my concern. For this reason, we need to have a neutral building and accessible policing. This means people should not have to pass through four security gates and barricades to enter a police station before having to give their name in a loud voice.

One would be seen on the street outside when one was going in and one could be asked, "Are you an informer?" Those are the real barriers to going into a police station. If we take them out and put police in with their colleagues and start to normalise the position, then communities will become normalised in turn because people will be able to walk in off the street.

Reference was made to trafficked women. There are also women who are in forced marriages. Such marriages are happening in Northern Ireland and we keep a register in respect of them. Any woman who is leaving the country can register the fact that she is doing so and where she has been. Those are the issues which are emerging. We have new communities coming into Northern Ireland and we quickly need to come to terms with some of the issues that arise for these families if we are to get a grip on matters. We need to do this soon before areas become controlled, meaning that families cannot get out. I sit on the policing partnership in Derry and the latest matter with which it dealt related to ten year olds. Community representatives were chastising parents about their children being on the streets and social services became involved. That is not a matter with which community representatives with no training should be dealing. It is, rather, for the relevant agencies and the justice centres to consider issues relating to families with problems.

We have a range of training, we are involved in schools and we have healthy relationships with those with whom we work. We have a great deal of work which is ongoing. We were in Galway recently doing some joint work with the people there and we shared information on how we operate. That is our view in terms of the justice centre. Central to that will be the voices forum. We will always invite women to the voices forum in order that they might evaluate matters for us, provide feedback in respect of what is missing and what should be included and outline their experiences. Women are central to all of this. I really believe that the police in America would not have invested money in this if there was a possibility that it would not work. Family justice centres are springing up right across the US. They are invest-to-save models and we will definitely share resources. However, we can also be more creative in what we develop for families because we will have access to joint expertise. We will get to know each other's boundaries. Part of the design of the justice centres is that they are open-plan. Dividing walls and separate offices are not allowed. It is not just about co-location.

We are working with the Strathclyde police in Scotland, which has a very impressive record in respect of domestic violence. Their chief inspector visited us and stated that one would have to have three heads in order to work in the domestic violence area in Northern Ireland. He saw the difficulties involved and was shocked at the state of the police station. He said, "No victim alive would go in there. How can you operate?" I informed him how we do so. The Strathclyde police have co-located with victim services in Scotland and we are meeting with them and examining their toolkit. It will not be just about the American model; we will also consider best practice from elsewhere and transfer it to our centre. If we have that, then we can try to share it right across the board. We cover particular areas but women everywhere can contact us and we will link them with services in or near their own areas. We will also provide advice. There are men who also suffer. For example, some men have experienced sexual violence. This will also provide an opportunity for them to come forward. When they do so, they require immediate support and access to proper expertise. That is what we hope the justice centre will provide.

1:00 pm

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Am I correct in thinking that the residential element of the facility is in place?

Ms Marie Brown:

Yes.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Is it the case that the family justice centre will provide services rather than-----

Ms Marie Brown:

Yes.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The overall project should not, therefore, be as daunting a prospect. I had thought that both residential and-----

Ms Marie Brown:

No.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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So it is not as daunting a prospect as I would initially have believed. I thank Ms Brown for the further elaboration she has provided because it brings great clarity in respect of the need for the development of the centre in order that it might provide services to those who need them.

Ms Marie Brown:

We have also worked with our local magistrate. We have a special domestic violence listing and we are now working towards the development of a specialist domestic violence court. This is why our location is the best one for the centre. As a result of the fact that we have developed so much and we have the treatment centre with inter-agency involvement already in place - the investment in this regard was £4 million and the project has just been completed - the justice centre will be the front-line service. This will enable those on the front line to come up to speed. Any agency can refer people on to any or all of the facilities we have managed to put in place. We just received £500,000 from the lottery in order to examine the position with regard to anti-social behaviour and acting out among ten to 18 year olds. That anti-social behaviour stems from children living with violence and also from the fact that there is a perception about an acceptable level of violence in the street. These children know nothing else. We are really starting to look at helping them cope with some of the violence with which they have grown up. We are also examining different ways of approaching how they behave and considering other anti-violence work.

The treatment centre will be completed in June and will open in September. We are going to open it as part of changing the culture in Derry because domestic and other violence have been a large part of our culture. They were present before the Troubles and they certainly flourished during the latter. They could flourish again if we do not take action now. I would love the members of the committee to visit the centre while Derry is UK City of Culture.

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Brown for the invitation and I will now take a final contribution from Senator White.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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I was spellbound as I listened to Ms Brown. The work her organisation is doing is amazing. I would love to visit the centre in order to see what is being done there. Is the problem of domestic violence across all social classes?

Ms Marie Brown:

Absolutely. Sometimes we tend to think of those affected as women who experience social deprivation. That is not the case. We have outreach workers who go out into the community and into family homes. It can happen to women from every walk of life. We also take referrals in respect of men and then signpost them. In the past couple of weeks we received referrals in respect of three gay men who suffered domestic violence in their relationships and we were able to signpost these forward.

The justice centre will be inclusive of everybody. If someone walks in and we do not have a service for them, then we will learn to provide it. The centre will be an evolving one. The services are already in place but we are just not working as effectively as we could. If we house them all together, it will be a build-to-save project because we can cut down on the resources required and then redistribute them where they are needed - by the people. We provide social economy training. The social economy business managed to give £30,000 to Foyle Women's Aid last year and this money was put towards building a crèche and child care facility.

Another thing we are doing is looking at breaking the cycle. In that context, we are examining the position with regard to young people and babies. We need to intervene in this regard in order to break the cycles to which I refer. We provide massage facilities and health visitors come in to the centre. We are using and sharing our resources. I am currently working with social services to put a manager in place. Instead of money, social services is going to give me a person. It is about being creative in how we share and it is also about not trying to own it ourselves. The focus must be on the victims.

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Brown. She has provided us with tremendous insight, which is important. Perhaps this is the start of the conversation. If we are in the north west, we will take up her very kind invitation. I commend our guests on their work. They are strong advocates not just for women but also in respect of other matters, such as supporting families and communities.

Ultimately, they are helping to rebuild Northern Ireland and to create a vision for a new Northern Ireland. We wish them well in their work. On the issue of human trafficking, Committee D of the British Irish Parliamentary Assembly, chaired by Lord Dubs, is focusing on that matter at present and is taking submissions on it from various groups. If the witnesses are interested in getting in touch with that committee, the clerk to this committee will facilitate them.

Again, I thank the witness for attending this meeting. The committee will now meet in private session and we must vacate the room within 20 minutes.

The committee went into private session at 1.22 p.m. and adjourned at 1.35 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 30 May 2013.