Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I welcome the officials from the Department of Education and Skills to discuss multilingualism in an EU context with the joint committee. We note this issue is one of the topics for debate under the Presidency of the European Council, given the need for modern languages in today's multicultural economy. It is also an issue tabled to the agenda by members as something we need to address. I welcome Ms Breda Naughton and Ms Anne O'Mahony, qualifications, curriculum and assessment policy unit, Ms Gráinne Morrissey, higher education division, and Mr. Paul Caffrey, inspectorate. I draw their attention the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I advise them that their opening statements and any documents submitted to the committee will be published on its website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now invite Ms Naughton to make her opening remarks.

Ms Breda Naughton:

We are pleased to have this opportunity to speak to the joint committee today on the provision of languages in the Irish education system, particularly in the context of the EU and multilingualism. The joint committee will have received our executive summary, which I will read through and may add to. I am accompanied today by Ms Ann O'Mahony, who works with me in the qualifications, curriculum and assessment section, Mr. Paul Caffrey from the inspectorate, who is also a specialist in the languages area, and Ms Gráinne Morrissey from the higher education division.

At primary level, the focus is on the acquisition of the two national languages, English and Irish. Beyond primary level, the focus expands to include not only English and Irish but other languages, which I will elaborate on later. As the purpose of today's discussion is multilingualism in an EU context, I will start with that issue. It is more than 12 years since the Barcelona European Council meeting identified language competencies as an essential component of a competitive knowledge-based economy. The EU has advocated that education systems seek to promote competency in the mother tongue plus two foreign languages from an early age. In Ireland, Irish and English are national languages and both are taught at primary and second level. Accordingly, while the vast majority of students in Ireland study three languages at second level, only the third language is counted in this European indicator of foreign languages. Ten years on from the Barcelona European Council, the Commission's communication, Rethinking Education: Investing in Skills for Better Socioeconomic Outcomes, published last November, again emphasised the importance of language learning, particularly for jobs and mobility.

The latest edition of the Eurobarometer special report on Europeans' foreign language competencies and attitudes to foreign languages, which was published last June, showed that Ireland had registered a notable increase since the previous report in 2006 in the number of respondents who indicated they could speak at least one or two foreign languages well enough to hold a conversation. While we are dealing with languages in the context of the EU, it is important also to note that such an approach is promoted by the Council of Europe, which advocates plurilingualism.

I will now deal with the national language strategy. Last year, a report by the expert group on future skills needs, Key Skills for Enterprise to Trade Internationally, recommended the development of a national language strategy with a five to ten-year horizon.

In 2011 the Government published the national literacy and numeracy strategy to strengthen the development of English and Irish. This is in line with the 20-year strategy for Irish and the Gaeltacht Act 2012. An integrated language curriculum which will focus on the transfer of skills between both languages at primary level is being developed by the NCCA. It is currently concentrating on junior classes at primary level, up to second class. This approach will provide a strong foundation for learning other languages and is based on research that includes three reports published last year by the NCCA.

Post-primary education builds on the foundation established at primary level by offering not only English and Irish but also a range of foreign languages. French, German, Spanish and Italian are currently offered at junior cycle, while Russian, Japanese and Arabic are also available at leaving certificate level. In recognition of the number of EU citizens in this country, it is also possible to take leaving certificate examinations in other native languages. Last October the Minister launched the new framework for the junior cycle, which will support schools in fostering practical language learning skills. The framework will give all students the opportunity to study at least one language in addition to Irish and English. Revised syllabuses of modern foreign languages are scheduled for implementation in 2016. The new revised syllabus for English will be implemented from 2014 and the new syllabus in Irish from 2015.

A transition year module in Chinese was launched last year, having already been piloted by over 20 schools. For many years Japanese has been offered in a number of transition year programmes, resulting in an uptake of Japanese to leaving certificate level by 239 students in 2012. In 2012 over 30,000 students sat a European language for the leaving certificate, including 26,000 in French, 6,700 in German, 4,000 in Spanish and 700 in Polish, with smaller numbers taking other languages such as Italian, Japanese and Russian and Arabic. Students in the LCVP and the applied leaving certificate are also required to study a modern language. The post-primary languages initiative is broadening its remit to provide support for all teachers of modern foreign languages through the provision of materials on its website. It offers support to schools who wish to introduce Spanish, Italian, Japanese and Russian.

Students in higher education have access to a wide range of foreign language courses at third level that can be taken as core subjects or in combination with a range of other disciplines across business, the arts, the humanities and the sciences. Language programmes are also an important part of further education provision across both full-time and part-time courses. A number of language programmes have also been selected for funding through the Springboard skills initiative, which was launched in May 2011. Preliminary data from HEA research on the provision of foreign languages indicates that some 9,000 third level students are studying a foreign language. The EU’s Erasmus initiative has played a key role in enhancing the language proficiency of Irish graduates. Some 28,000 Irish students have benefited from this programme over the past 25 years. Irish participation in Erasmus has risen significantly in recent years, including an 18% increase last year, which was the fourth highest growth rate in Europe.

However, despite the significant level of language provision delivered by the education system, it is evident that less than a third of school leavers elect to develop their language competences further in higher education and far fewer graduates opt to pursue careers using their language skills. While the education system can make provision for language, it is for wider society, including enterprise and communities, to highlight the advantages that studying languages can bring and attract more students into this area.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Ms Naughton and her colleagues from the Department of Education and Skills. She outlined the current policies for improving the language capacity of students and the wider population. Significant issues have arisen recently in regard to the foreign language capacity required for some of the jobs that have been attracted to this country. PayPal received particular attention when it publicised the lack of capacity in this country to fill the roles it had created. We have to ensure our education system allows people to become proficient in languages which can benefit them in terms of getting jobs. I note that the recent Eurobarometer survey found that the figures had improved compared to 2006. I ask for more detail regarding how they have improved, the current figures and where they leave us in comparison to our European counterparts.

In regard to the potential for junior certificate reform to develop language capacity among students at second level, what are the plans in this regard? Students currently study foreign languages for the junior certificate. How will the proposed changes assist in developing their language capacity further?

The modern languages in primary schools initiative was introduced on a pilot basis in 1998 but was discontinued by the Minister last year. The initiative was shown to have an impact in terms of increasing uptake and interest in modern languages in participating schools. It was a short-sighted approach by the Minister to cut rather than expand an apparently effective initiative. Just 4% of primary school students have an opportunity to study a modern language. In many cases it is only at secondary level that students first engage with a foreign language. Evidence suggests that the younger a student engages with a modern language, the greater the capacity and the grá that will develop.

A considerable amount of time is devoted to Irish at primary level. It is well documented that the results are not as good as they could be. Is the Department considering any initiatives for improving outcomes given the amount of time dedicated to Irish?

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy McConalogue spoke about the modern language initiative. I agree with him that it was a retrograde step to discontinue it in December 2011. I can only speak from my own experience as a student of modern languages and other members may have differing opinions as teachers.

I do not believe we do enough at primary level to prepare students to study modern languages. For instance, I studied French in secondary school. The way it was taught and the way I learned it was to achieve a grade in my leaving certificate, not to obtain a language skill which I would use beyond post-primary education. We need to move away from this unhelpful approach. As the delegation pointed out, there is a significant level of language provision at second level but less than a third opt to pursue it in higher education. Maybe this is because the way it is being taught and learned in schools. I did enough in post-primary education to obtain an A in French. Six months after that I probably could not even have a conversation in French. We need to examine the approach to teaching languages and we may get greater results in people obtaining languages.

The National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, is examining an integrated language curriculum for primary schools. Will the Department give us more details on this and explain how it will help develop language skills?

Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the officials for their presentation. What are their views on the modern languages in primary schools initiative? I felt this programme was progressive and helped children pick up languages at an age when they soak up much, so to speak. Has the Department data on how many people use the languages they learned in second level and in third level in their working lives? Has there been any progress in rolling out language courses for BRICS - Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa - countries and other emerging markets? Does the Department have any data on how many students are taking up, for example, Portuguese or Russian?

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the delegation from the Department. The teaching of languages is an area of considerable interest to many and I welcome the opportunity to shine a light on it at the committee. There is a prevailing attitude to the teaching of French in our secondary schools. Does the Department review this approach? Why are we not teaching more German? Have we reviewed the approach to the teaching of languages from the BRICS countries and other emerging markets. Up to 30% of students study languages at third level. How does Ireland compare to other EU member states and other countries for language uptake at third level?

There was some debate during the general election about the compulsory teaching of Irish in schools. Has the Department a view on compulsory Irish for the leaving certificate? I feel very strongly about this. From my experience of teaching, I believe compulsory Irish is its own worst enemy and does not help the teaching of the language. People should be allowed to do it themselves by their own choice.

The other bugbear of mine is the teaching of Irish. It has been a significant challenge to the State over time and to those teaching it. My four children were fluent in a second language before they went to school because their mother had a second language. From listening to it in the home, they picked it up quickly and became fluent speakers. It is a bugbear for me then that children spend 16 years in school but come out illiterate in Irish. I believed one of the problems was teaching people to read in the language. While I accept teaching methods have progressed, every language should be learned through speaking first and then reading and spelling can come afterwards. What is the Department’s view on the teaching of Irish in primary schools and lower-stream classes? Will the officials also elaborate on the teaching of Chinese in schools?

Ms Breda Naughton:

Deputy McConalogue asked how the junior cycle reform will assist language capacity in the schools. In the new junior cycle we have set down statements of learning which describe what the students should know, understand and value at the end of their junior cycle. Two of these statements are that they would be able to communicate in the school’s first language, be it English or Irish, and have a level of proficiency in another language, appropriate to their particular ability. All children will study English and Irish but they will also have an opportunity to study a foreign language. That could be either as a full subject or a new short course of 100 hours.

The NCCA is preparing a short course in Chinese. Before, the first opportunity students had to learn the language was through a transition year module. From 2014, they will have an opportunity to study it through a short course. Schools can also develop short courses. This would be helpful to those schools with a high proportion of migrants. For example, we now have 700 young people doing Polish for the leaving certificate. A school may offer short courses in languages where there is a demand for them.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien referred to learning a language at school just to get the grade. I know he is a bit younger than me but when I was in school it was all about learning theorems, geometry and poems by heart for the grade too. We did not have a clue. I remember going to Brussels airport with my parents. They were delighted with me when I asked where to get a taxi in French. However, when the man replied, I had not a clue what he was saying. Today, there is a greater approach to learning a language orally and using it in real-life situations. With the new junior cycle, the assessment emphasis will be changed. It will be an assessment for learning that happened throughout the students experience in the three years.

They will have opportunities to talk to teachers and to their peers and to understand what they are learning, rather than being dependent on waiting until the end of third year to have a grade allocated. This is how the new junior cycle framework will provide a different emphasis from that it does currently in the context of languages.

I also want to speak about Irish. The national literacy and numeracy strategy was published in 2011 and it set out policy with regard to languages at primary level. The 2009 PISA results indicated we had gone right down on the scale with regard to literary and numeracy, but there was also evidence that Irish students were not doing well in those areas. We felt that if we got the foundation right there, this would then enable young people to learn other languages when they enter post-primary level. Therefore, it was Government policy that decided this was the way to go. However we must be mindful of policy on Irish and the Department of Education and Skills must report every few months to the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht on what we are doing about Irish in the context of the 20 year strategy and the Gaeltacht Act, which requires that Gaeltacht areas and service towns that look after Gaeltacht areas ensure there is appropriate provision for Irish.

I agree there are some concerns with regard to the teaching of Irish. The committee is probably aware that from next year, new teachers will be required to spend two years doing their higher diploma and primary teachers will have to spend four years doing their degrees. There is also consultation taking place currently with the Teaching Council with regard to the level of Irish and maths students should have to enable them enter teacher education. Also, student teachers will be expected to spend two weeks each year in the Gaeltacht, rather than one period of three weeks. This is being done in the hope that if we demand a higher level of Irish at entry and if we provide a greater opportunity to be involved in the Gaeltacht, these young teachers will have a greater understanding of the language, the culture and the Irish ethos.

There is also talk of a short literature course in Irish because in the new curricula there will be more emphasis on oral and aural ability. Some young people in Irish medium schools and the Gaeltacht may have a greater proficiency in Irish and perhaps schools will provide a short course on literature in order to keep those groups interested in Irish. This is being considered and may be possible through the new junior cycle framework.

Perhaps Mr. Caffrey will speak now about teaching teachers and learning.

Mr. Paul Caffrey:

I was interested to hear Deputy O'Brien's comment on the learning of French. In a newspaper recently a parent asked how it is that a person who gets a B at higher level French cannot go into a shop and ask for a loaf of bread. The parent finished by saying that instead of taking down lists of French verbs and writing postcards to imaginary pen-friends, pupils should spend their time in class speaking and chatting in French and trying out their skills. I hope schools harness new technologies, such as Skype, in imaginative ways to expose students to the real business of language expression and communication rather than the current business of getting through the leaving certificate exam.

As an inspector, I am aware of the challenge there is in moving from the traditional style, which in the worst case scenario is based on teaching through English, with a heavy, grammar-translation approach. However, we also see very exciting things happening in terms of communicative language teaching and the move is in that direction and technology is helping. I was in a school in west Dublin last year where I saw a fifth year second level group Skype colleagues in an exchange school in the north of Italy. This is happening. The post primary languages initiative has, through its website, made some very good video clips available to encourage teachers to teach more through the target language. There is also a Facebook page promoting this. There is a move in that direction.

It is important to point out that assessment can sometimes be the tail that wags the dog. The oral examination at junior certificate level is optional currently and most schools do not do it. This is detrimental in terms of discouraging a truly communicative teaching approach. However, this is changing and some schools are offering a junior certificate oral, prioritising an oral exam. The situation is similar with regard to Irish and now 40% of the marks go to the leaving certificate oral exam. Both teachers and students would say there has been a definite shift in emphasis towards a more communicative style of teaching. When inspectors are in classrooms, this is one of the key factors they consider, at both primary and post-primary level. They are looking to see whether the style of teaching is communicative and whether material is being taught through the target language.

Students must also have the real opportunity to use the language. Learning a language is not like being given a body of knowledge to be retained. It is more like learning to drive a car or play a sport. Often students do not get the opportunity to practise and it can be difficult in a big class to create real communicative opportunities. A movement called content and language integrated learning, CLIL, simply means teaching another subject through Irish, French or whatever. This used to happen to a significant extent, particularly in primary schools in the past when subjects like music, art or history were taught through Irish. The same could be done through French or another foreign language if we had teachers who were graduates in a language and another subject. Transition year provides a possibility for this. Unless students are given opportunities to use the language in a communicative way, either through technology, group work in class or through using the language for everyday communication outside of the language class, the pull of simply being satisfied with being able to tick the boxes and do the right things in the exam is huge.

Unless there are opportunities to practice, there is no language development. That is the reason many of us here for example, who had very good levels of Irish, French or whatever leaving school, would find it difficult to conduct the business of this committee through that language. That is simply because we are out of practice.

Ms Breda Naughton:

I will ask Ms. O'Mahony to speak now about the Eurobarometer and the language initiative at primary level.

Ms Anne O'Mahony:

The Eurobarometer is one of a series of periodic surveys carried out by the European Commission on Europeans and their languages. The current barometer is the third in the series. The first was in 2001, the second in 2006 and the current one was conducted in 2012. The key findings of the survey reveal that Europeans have a very positive attitude towards multilingualism. Almost all Europeans, 98%, think that mastering a foreign language is useful for their children's future and 88% see it as useful for themselves. Almost three quarters, 72%, agree with the EU objective that everybody should learn at least two foreign languages. Some 77% think that improvement in language skills should be a policy priority and 67% see English as one of the two most useful languages for themselves. Among the others most frequently cited as useful are: German, 17%; French, 16%; Spanish, 14%; and Chinese, 6%.

With regard to some of the other figures, countries showing the most noticeable increase in the proportion of respondents saying they can speak at least one foreign language well enough to hold a conversation compared to data from the 2006 survey are: Austria, up 16 percentage points to 78%; Finland, up six percentage points to 75%; and Ireland, up six percentage points to 40%. Very few countries show a notable increase in the proportion of respondents able to speak at least two foreign languages, with the most marked being Italy, up six percentage points to 22% and Ireland, up five percentage points to 18%. I wonder whether immigrant populations play a role in this, but it is certainly a positive finding. That said, there are also negative findings. Countries where respondents are least likely to be able to speak any foreign language are Hungary, 65%, Italy, 62%, the UK and Portugal, 61% and Ireland, 60%. It is certainly not all a rosy picture.

While on the issue of the Eurobarometer survey, Deputy Griffin asked what people were doing with the languages they acquired at second and third level. This survey address that. Page 54 contains a list of what people do with their languages, including, holidays abroad and watching films or television. For Irish people, some 46% use their languages for holidays abroad, 26% for watching films and television and 14% for the Internet.

Interestingly, it was found that 24% of respondents used foreign languages for work conversations, either face to face or over the telephone. I will not go through all of the activities mentioned in the survey. Apparently, 10% of Irish people - or at least of those who responded to the survey - use foreign languages in reading at work. All of the data are contained on page 54 of the survey. I can send a link to the committee, if that would be helpful.

I wish to move on from the Eurobarometer survey to the modern languages in primary schools initiative. As members are aware, the decision to end the initiative was taken in the context of the challenging budgetary environment we are facing. There are no plans to revisit this decision. When the initiative was introduced, it was not applied to all schools. At a time when we are trying to fit so many activities into the curriculum, it is clear that curriculum overload was an issue. In addition, there were problems with the replicability of the model across the system. It was not systemic; it was an initiative. Difficulties were identified and it was decided to end the modern languages in primary schools initiative.

I would like to conclude by picking up on something Ms Naughton said. The idea of the integrated language curriculum is to focus on English and Irish as languages. When I was in school, Irish did not feel like a language; it felt like something else. The aim of the new integrated language curriculum at primary level is to underline that English and Irish are languages with points of comparison and that skills can be transferred between them. The idea of the new curriculum is to help children to become aware of these skills explicitly. If primary school pupils develop the ability to transfer skills between the two languages offered in the primary system, Irish and English, they can transfer that ability at post-primary level and use it to acquire other languages. By making it explicit that Irish and English are languages with certain features in common, it is hoped to allow students to appreciate how languages work and apply that knowledge when they are learning other languages at post-primary level.

Ms Breda Naughton:

I will ask my colleague, Ms Morrissey, who works in the higher education section to speak about the needs of students who are going into industry and how industry is reacting to the economy's need for language skills.

Ms Gráinne Morrissey:

As Ms Naughton said, I will focus on the provision of languages required by enterprise. A wide range of languages are available across the higher education sector. There is no indication that capacity constraints would hinder us in increasing provision if demand were to increase. We can also develop targeted responses to particular enterprise and foreign language skills needs through initiatives such as Springboard. If we increase provision in the absence of increased demand, we will not address any skills gap. We provided almost 130 places on foreign language courses under Springboard in 2012. They were to be provided through seven programmes, but three of the programmes were not ultimately offered because there was insufficient demand for them from students.

Deputy Jim Daly also asked about the number of people studying languages at third level. We know that the number studying a foreign language as a single subject increased by approximately 13% between 2007 and 2010. The HEA's data returns do not capture those students who study languages as part of a degree in which it is not the main subject. The HEA is undertaking research to address this by trying to quantify the full extent of language provision across the higher education sector. Preliminary data from this exercise indicate that approximately 9,000 students are studying a foreign language as a core subject or module as part of their degrees. The increasing modularisation of higher education programmes will provide more opportunities for students to take languages as part of other degrees.

Ms Breda Naughton:

Students have opportunities to study abroad under the Erasmus programme. Young people can work as language assistants in other countries. The son of one of my friends is in France preparing to become a language assistant. The European Union is making a great effort to provide additional funding. Funds have been increased by 70% to try to get more young people to spend part of their time in third level education in another country. I will ask Mr. Caffrey to speak about the teaching of German.

Mr. Paul Caffrey:

The subject was heavily promoted in the late 1980s and early 1990s when German was perceived to be very important. I do not have details of the initiatives brought forward to promote it, but I can give the committee some statistics. In 2001 some 16.5% of all leaving certificate candidates sat a German paper. The equivalent figure for French at the time was 60%. French has traditionally been the dominant foreign language, primarily for historical reasons. After German reached the 16% level in 2001, it reduced to 15% in 2006 and 12% last year. French has witnessed a greater decline, in terms of the percentage of the total cohort taking it. Spanish and Italian have seen increases. Some German cultural institutions - the Goethe-Institut, the German Embassy and some German businesses - have launched a campaign to promote German as a language offering opportunities in second level education. They have produced a CD-ROM and a website, etc. Based on my experience of visiting schools, my feeling is that German, like other lesser taught languages, has had to fight its corner to some extent. It is rarely the default foreign language in a school. If German is still offered in a school, despite the pressure it faces as a subject, it is probably because it is well taught. I have seen some excellent teaching of German in schools. I appreciate the commitment of the Goethe-Institut and other bodies.

The languages offered in a school depend on the existing capacity within the school. A school cannot offer a language unless there is a teacher in it with the qualification and the ability to teach it. A far-seeing principal or board of management might decide to diversify the school's offering. A school that has traditionally taught French may decide to teach another language. The post-primary languages initiative helped many schools to introduce Spanish, Japanese, Russian or Italian. A certain degree of foresight is needed if a school is to take the initiative in this regard. It is difficult to judge these matters so far in advance. It should really be a matter for national policy. Each individual school chooses what to offer from the curriculum, which is a type of menu. This approach, whereby schools are given a high level of autonomy in deciding what to offer, is not going to change. The only way it could change would be if we decided we needed a certain capacity in certain languages. The BRICS countries have been mentioned in this regard. The only way the Department could ensure such a change of approach was implemented would be to provide ex quota teachers for these subjects and that is not going to happen in the current climate.

Ms Breda Naughton:

Deputy Jim Daly also asked how often we reviewed approaches to languages. It is an area in which we are very active. We are examining the development of the curriculum at primary level. We are dealing with junior infants, senior infants, first class and second class. The curriculums are mirror images of each other. That makes it easier or more probable that teachers will be able to deal with and support one language alongside another. That is happening and materials are being prepared. The National Council for Curriculum and Assessment is very involved in consultations about what is being done at various stages. The English curriculum is also being reviewed. That will go out for consultation very shortly. When the Irish curriculum is reviewed next year, that will go out for consultation also. A background paper which will go out for consultation is being prepared. The National Council for Curriculum and Assessment is trying to work on a consultative basis. It publishes material relating to each area in which it is working on its website and people can respond to it. That is what is being done at primary level. At post-primary level, the English and Irish junior cycle curriculums are being examined. Modern languages will be examined in 2016 and the short Chinese course should be ready for September 2014. Some consideration has been given to the senior cycle language programmes, but they are having to wait in line in the context of the significant amount of work being done in priority areas of the junior cycle programme such as literacy, numeracy, English and Irish. There is a great deal of reviewing. The aim is to ensure languages are not taught in an insular way - those teaching various languages should be aware of each other.

The other thing happening is that, because of the literacy and numeracy strategy, we are trying to get across the message to teachers that they are all literacy or numeracy teachers. For example, if one was dealing with a particular topic in, say, English, one would reinforce that by doing it in Irish also, so the children see the connection between each of the particular subjects. That is particularly easy at primary level because it is usually the same teacher for each subject. There is a lot of work going on in languages at the moment. Perhaps Ms O'Mahony will deal with the issue of compulsory Irish.

Ms Anne O'Mahony:

To add to what Ms Naughton has said, I want to mention that the post-primary languages initiative is also developing some short courses in its target languages. For example, it is looking at Japanese and Russian. I wanted to put that in the mix as well.

Deputy Jim Daly said he was against compulsory Irish. I would suggest he is perhaps a bit of an outlier in the Irish language movement. This is something that has been under consideration in the sense that it was mentioned in the programme for Government. As Mr. Caffrey mentioned, there is the new 40% oral Irish examination in the leaving certificate and the NCCA will be reviewing its impact in schools next year.

Ms Breda Naughton:

They are dealing with the 2012 and 2013 exam results.

Ms Anne O'Mahony:

Following a review of Irish in the system, we will then be looking at the whole question of compulsory Irish.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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The Department will be examining the 2013 exams for 2014.

Ms Breda Naughton:

We hope to have the results of that by the end of this year or early next year.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Would the witnesses like to offer a view on it, from their own perspective?

Ms Breda Naughton:

The interesting thing is that because we brought in the 40% oral exam for the leaving certificate, the number of young people who presented for the oral in the junior cycle increased significantly, so there was a positive backwash. I know they will be interviewing the young people who were involved. It would be better to wait rather than presume what the results will be.

I and another colleague have to go to the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht regularly and defend what is happening in the whole area of Irish. There is a lot of work going on in Irish at the moment, so it is alive and well in the Department and there is an awareness there of its importance.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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It is also evident in primary schools that there is a significant change among the children.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Are there any further questions?

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I was interested in Mr. Caffrey's analysis of how it is being taught. We are perhaps moving away from that type of teaching and learning to a more communicative model. There is no doubt that the more one interacts with the language on a daily basis, the easier it is to pick it up and maintain. I have young children who watch television programmes such as "Dora the Explorer" and "Handy Manny", and they are picking up bits and pieces of Spanish just from watching television and interacting. It is probably the way to go. If we are serious about teaching languages that are going to be used beyond education in the workforce, we have to change the way we are teaching and learning them.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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On that point, while I was never very good at languages at school, what I found most off-putting was the teaching of different tenses. That absolutely washed over me and it did not matter if I said it hundreds of times, I could never get the tenses. I found that stopped me from learning languages and I now cannot speak any language but English.

Mr. Paul Caffrey:

With regard to the piece I quoted from a newspaper, I happened to have that with me when I was on a school inspection. I saw a first-year class which I thought was unduly heavy in terms of grammatical input so I told the teacher when talking outside in the lobby that there would be plenty of time for that. The children's English grammar is muddled but nobody cares because they know exactly what the children want to say and they are making themselves understood. There is a time later on when the grammar and the rules are introduced in the context of communication. That is the direction in which we are trying to move things, with some success. We see quite a range, from very good communicative teaching, where the lesson from beginning to end is conducted in Spanish, Irish, French and so on, to the other extreme, where there is an imbalance of grammar at an unduly early stage, with students copying down lists of words and so on. That is changing, however, and we are certainly encouraging the change.

The new media are helping in this regard and I encourage committee members to look the website languagesinitiative.ie, which is the website of the post-primary languages initiative. It gives good examples and is a place where students and teachers are interacting, sharing source materials and so on. It is a move that is happening, although it is certainly taking time.

I believe the new junior cycle framework will help a lot because there will be more of an emphasis on learning outcomes and "can do" statements. This means, for example, that the student knows at the beginning of the year that, by Christmas, he or she will be able to do certain communicative things in the language, such as ask someone their name, be able to spell and so on. There will also be greater emphasis on assessment for learning so, rather than waiting for a written exam at the end of three years and focusing on that, there will be a continuous assessment of all the language skills, with a prioritising of oral language. That is certainly the way we are moving and I am seeing that change happening in schools. A change of that magnitude takes time but I believe it is happening and I see very good examples of it happening.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Are there any other questions?

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I am very heartened by today's contribution from our guests. It is very difficult to change a mindset. We all remember how we were taught languages and we all know what way we now want to go. I am genuinely very impressed by the amount of work happening in both in the NCCA and the Department and the move towards a modern approach to languages. There is clearly a big move afoot. I can see in my own children that how they are being taught and how they do their homework is very different. I commend the witnesses for that.

Ms Breda Naughton:

We in the administration have to talk to and listen to the inspectors, and they always talk now about the quality of the learning, the teaching and the assessment. It is the quality of learning that is key for young people. When I was in school, we did not dare open our mouths, whereas in class now it is very much a dialogue between the teacher and the young people, and between the young people and their peers. That dialogue allows them to interact and to learn so much better than if they are just sitting there, learning by rote and spitting it all back.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is true even in the Gaelscoileanna. My children go to all-Irish schools, where it is not just that the language is being taught, but that they are communicating in it every day, even in the hallways, during PE and so on. It is an active language within that environment and it stays with them beyond education.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their contributions and I echo the comments of Deputy Jim Daly that this has been very encouraging. We have dealt with spoken languages, but have the witnesses any information on Latin? I am one of the very few people in the country to have studied Latin at second level - I think the serial number on my junior certificate exam paper was 00005, and there were probably 20 people in the country taking it at the time. Are there any students taking Latin at leaving certificate and how low are the numbers? We have said the emphasis needs to be on oral learning, but there are a certain percentage of students who are linguistically interested, and Latin gives a good foundation for those students. For the purists, it is a subject that many would like to have an opportunity to study and I am fearful it will be lost in the future. What is the position in regard to Latin?

Ms Breda Naughton:

I do not have the exact statistics but I can get them for the Deputy. The numbers are small and the demand would predominantly be for us to ensure we have more of the BRICS country languages, the European languages and so on. However, Latin is still available and I will send the figures for the last few years to the Deputy.

Mr. Paul Caffrey:

I happened to be looking at the business plan of our own inspectorate region and there is an inspection in Latin in one of the schools in the next week or two.

I cannot remember where. Not only is it being taught; it is also being inspected. When I did my leaving certificate, it was Latin or Latin. Again, that was the NUI, for which it was a matriculation requirement at the time. That was seen to be inappropriate so then an avalanche of French came in. The problem is curriculum space. With the new junior certificate programme the possibility is there for short courses, while transition year also provides a possibility. I know one school in Dublin where all first year students take Latin and some continue with it. A student in my niece's class is studying Latin for the leaving certificate this year. It is certainly there, but the numbers are small, for an understandable reason. Not everyone will appreciate that, but I certainly do. Again, the flexibility offered by the new junior cycle framework will provide space for short courses in particular.

We come back to the question of teacher supply, which means long-term planning. How many teachers in the system can teach Latin? There is a wonderful programme in the UK called Minimus, which one can check on the Internet. It is a Latin programme for primary school students. The idea is that they learn much about languages, culture and European heritage through study. Minimus is a little mouse character.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to give the impression that it is a dead language because my earlier questions were about gearing towards industry and preparing the workforce in the best possible way. That is precisely the point. It is a very important language in terms of preparing one to learn more languages and learn about cultures. Perhaps it could be looked at to see if there could be a revival or at least if it could be made as available as widely as possible.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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There are 450 students taking Latin at junior certificate, while 120 students are taking it at leaving certificate.

Ms Breda Naughton:

I have a note telling me to send over those figures.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I will bring the meeting to a conclusion. I thank the guests for their presentation. It is a subject we will look at again, so this will inform us in that. The Select Committee on Education and Social Protection will meet on 1 May 2013 to address the Further Education and Training Bill 2013.