Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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We have a quorum and we are in public session. I advise members that they must turn off their mobile telephones when attending committee meetings. Active mobile telephones interfere with the sound system and RTE has informed us it will not broadcast any part of a meeting where interference from mobile telephones has occurred. Apologies have been received from the Chairman, Deputy Michael McCarthy, Deputy Catherine Murphy, Senator Fiach Mac Conghail and Senator Ned O’Sullivan.

We will consider the issue of climate change with the following witnesses: Mr. Sorley McCaughey, head of advocacy and policy, Christian Aid; Ms Cecilia Kibe Muthoni, co-ordinator, Kenya Climate Justice Women Champions; Mr. Mithika Mwenda, co-ordinator, PanAfrican Climate Justice Alliance; and Ms Maanda Ngoitiko, Pastoral Women's Council of Tanzania.

I thank them for their attendance and welcome them to the meeting.

I draw their attention the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I advise them that the opening statements and any documents submitted to the committee will be published on its website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite our guests to make their opening remarks.

Mr. Sorley McCaughey:

I thank the committee. We understand that the committee has received a lot of requests to speak from interested parties on the subject of the climate action and low carbon development Bill, so we are grateful for the opportunity to contribute an international perspective to the committee's ongoing work. We spent the last two days in Dublin Castle at the Hunger, Nutrition and Climate Justice conference hosted by the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Mary Robinson Foundation - Climate Justice. It was a remarkable event in many ways, not least because of the participation of so many organisations from communities around the globe who are dealing with and adapting to the impacts of climate change. Three of those partners are with us today to share with the committee their experience of the impacts of a changing climate and the committee will hear from them shortly. I was fortunate to have been a participant as well. By way of some opening remarks, I would like to share with the committee three observations from the conference. The first is the urgency of the issue. Hearing first-hand accounts of failing crops brought about by prolonged drought or torrential rain washing away soils and seeds was a reminder to all of us there that climate change is happening and is causing devastation for millions of people around the world. It is challenging the very existence of communities dependent on the land for their existence, is disproportionately affecting women and children and is threatening to set back by years the development gains made by developing countries over the last two decades. As former US Vice President Al Gore remarked at the conference, opening the newspaper or hearing the news these days is like taking a nature walk through the Book of Revelation. Yesterday, we heard from my colleague, Mr. Mithika Mwenda, that 36 Kenyans had lost their lives in floods across the country. It was all the more moving and telling that many of these places that were suffering from flooding traditionally suffer from droughts. Now it is floods that are taking the lives of people. Rachel Kyte, a vice president at the World Bank, described at the conference how in some parts of the globe, extreme weather events that used to happen once every 100 years are now happening as often as every five or six years. Crucially, the time between these extreme weather events is insufficient for communities to recover. They are being hit with a fresh weather event before they have had time to get back on their feet, setting their development back two or three years at a time and undermining all the good work that has been done up to that point.

The second observation I made was the incredible innovation, intelligence and resilience that communities, villages and individuals are continuing to show in the face of these stark challenges. A focus of the conference was to record and exchange the adaptation experience of partners in different situations. There was a complete global reach from the Arctic circle down to the Pacific islands and we heard some hugely impressive accounts from people who have responded and changed the way they have worked the land to adapt to a changing climate. Of course, none of that innovation will mean anything if the planet continues on its current emissions pathway, which, at the moment, will bring us to a 6-degree warming by the end of the century. All the development gains and all the creative responses to climate change are in danger of being washed away by flooding and storms or blown away in a massive dust bowl.

This brings me to my third observation. While there was a wealth of discussion and a rich exchange of views between policy makers and communities at the coalface about ways of adapting to the changing climate and challenges with regard to food security and nutrition, there was less, indeed very little, discussion about the bigger issues - or the elephant in the room, as I heard it being referred to on more than one occasion. The elephant in the room was, and is, the role and responsibility of industrialised countries to address climate change. It is a fact that industrialised countries need to dramatically reduce their emissions in line with what the science tells us if we are to have any chance of keeping below a 2°C rise. Even a 2°C rise will have massive implications for many developing countries. I know some of our partner organisations believe 2°C is too high and that the figure needs to be 1.5°C or below. The other elephant in the room was that rich countries have yet to honour their commitments made under the UNFCCC to provide new money - and by "new", we do not mean aid money repackaged and recycled as climate money. Countries need that money to help them adapt to climate change and scale up local adaptation projects. It is, as was mentioned by some of the participants, a question of justice. It was the actions of the countries of the industrialised north that caused climate change, and they and we bear an historical responsibility for creating climate change that needs to be acknowledged and acted on. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, in his brief appearance at the conference, acknowledged as much when he noted that it is those who did least to create climate change who are suffering the worst consequences. It is not the first time I have heard the Minister say that and it is an important reality and worth repeating. Action on climate change is a question of justice.

This brings us to the context of this meeting, the climate action and low carbon development Bill. The question is whether we can view the Bill in its current format as being a meaningful contribution to addressing some of that historical injustice and whether it will provide reassurance to people such as my colleagues here today that countries such as Ireland, which is steeped in a history of global solidarity and the promotion of international development, are playing their part in tackling runaway climate change. Christian Aid, Trócaire and Oxfam, which are partners of the organisations represented here today, share the view that the climate Bill in its current form does not adequately reflect the seriousness of the situation that we as a global community, but particularly those in developing countries, are faced with. In particular, we feel that the absence of any targets from the heads of Bill betrays a lack of urgency and ambition on the part of the Government towards the climate crisis and undermines our international claims to be a leading voice in addressing the hunger, nutrition and climate change nexus. The fact that we will be adhering to EU targets is a missed opportunity on the part of the Government for Ireland to plot its own ambitious path towards a low-carbon future and to provide certainty about Government policy and a clear pathway for emissions reductions, as the programme for Government puts it. The Bill as it stands gives no such certainty for the future and for those businesses and individuals wishing to invest in the green economy.

At this point I will hand over to my colleagues, who will provide far more eloquent and articulate first-hand accounts of what living at the thin end of the climate change wedge is like. They will tell us what climate justice means to them. I wish the committee well as it continues on the process of consultation on the Bill. I hope that the contributions today will provide a useful international dimension to the committee's deliberations. Climate change, like many of the problems that challenge societies today, is a global challenge which demands that the domestic policies we adopt in our country are at the very least mindful of the potential consequences that these actions may be having on other countries.

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. McCaughey for his opening remarks.

Ms Maanda Ngoitiko:

I am from Tanzania and I work with an organisation called Pastoral Women's Council. I am very pleased to be here. I studied in Ireland some time ago and I feel as though I have a special connection with Ireland. I have returned to Kimmage Manor.

I will talk specifically about the impact of climate change on pastoralism. Pastoralism is a livelihood system which is entirely dependent on land-based resources. There are three main pillars which maintain and sustain pastoralism. The first pillar is the availability of pasture, which is crucial. Mobility is another pillar in the maintenance of pastoralism, because it is necessary to move from one place in order to sustain pastoralism. Water is also essential in order to sustain our livelihoods. In the dry land of east Africa we have been experiencing extreme weather conditions. This has led to frequent droughts, which in turn leads to massive loss of livestock. For example, I am from the Ngorongoro area of east Africa. In my district, more than 200,000 livestock were lost in 2009 and 2010. This has led to extreme poverty and great numbers of people have fled their homes because of poverty. This is a result of climate change. For example, Ngorongoro division is also a very popular conservation area because it is a tourism destination. There are between 70,000 and 136,000 pastoralists living there. This means it is difficult to sustain the pastoralist life. The children and women have suffered and died from starvation in great numbers. The young people have migrated all over Tanzania and even to Kenya because of famine and starvation. The only employment they can get is as security guards, because most of them are not educated. This is a significant consequence of the impact of climate change on our livelihoods. This also has to do with the appropriation of pastoralist land for conservation and farming purposes, which has reduced the grazing pattern. Water has been very scarce in east Africa because of climate change. The weather conditions are not predictable and they have changed over time. The people do not know when to farm or when to plant, nor where to graze the livestock. There has been frequent movement of pastoralists to other areas and an increase in conflict over resources between farmers and pastoralists. Climate change is a man-made reality.

I wish to describe a brief case study from my own village. When I was growing up in the Loliondo area, all sorts of traditional fruits were available to us to eat while herding our livestock. There were beehives and plenty of water sources in the area. Now the situation has changed completely. The bees are no longer there, while some species of tree have mostly disappeared and those remaining no longer bear fruit. The seasons are no longer understandable or predictable, even for the plants. The main diet of the pastoralists has changed and has been reduced to a little milk and very stiff porridge. The pastoralists' diet used to be mainly milk and meat but now it is cornflour and tea. When a family has no money it is difficult to feed the children. Milk is scarce because the cattle are spending long periods searching for water and pasture. When the rain comes and some milk is available, my family and our neighbours must sell some of the milk to raise money to supply the basic needs of the family. The source of our staple food is the shops and grain. When one has no money, one has no food. Many families are going through a similar situation all over the Ngorongoro district and the situation is worsening. When members of a family are poorly fed they tend to spend more time sitting and waiting for medical attention because there is a high incidence of disease along with much physical suffering. Many families are being separated, and women are virtual widows. There is a high level of migration from rural areas to the towns, with young people in particular going to look for employment. Disease, fatigue and poor diet are common problems. During the drought period the village women have to walk nine hours to fetch water and sometimes the water is not available when they reach the water source. The men have migrated completely in an effort to find work in order to support their families. The situation is completely unbearable and this is all the result of climate change. There is much malnutrition, disease and uncertainty in the pastoralist community as a result of climate change.

Traditionally the Masai have their own ways of coping with drought. One of the best ways is through mobility. Nowadays, mobility is not possible because the grazing land has been reduced. Cows and goats are concentrated in a small area and this also causes significant problems of land degradation. Another Masai coping strategy is the sharing of resources. This has sustained the livelihoods of pastoralists. Any little amount of food is shared with the rest of the family. This has become a problem because climate change is significantly reducing the number of livestock. These are a few examples of how the food sources of pastoralists are affected.

Developing countries have been affected by something we have not caused. Ireland should take responsibility for a reduction in climate change by setting an example. This can be done by deciding on specific targets to reduce emissions of carbon gases into the atmosphere. The Irish Government should ensure such targets are legally binding.

We request the committee to take this seriously and set an example. We are very happy because we were told in the workshop that Ireland would hold the Presidency of the Council of the European Union for the next six months. We request that Ireland set an example. We know Ireland has a long history of famine which was overcome by the collective effort of the Irish people.

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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Would our other guests like to comment?

Mr. Mithika Mwenda:

I am the co-ordinator of the PanAfrican Climate Justice Alliance, a coalition of more than 300 African organisations, including farmers', pastoralists' and women's organisations as well as organisations from diverse backgrounds, which have been brought together to add our voice to advocacy and policy-making on climate change at international level and to try to influence and contribute to the integration of climate change into national poverty reduction and sustainable development in African countries.

As my colleague said, climate change is really a big issue in Africa. When I was invited to speak to this committee, I reflected on a number of personalities who have changed this world. One of them really struck my imagination, namely, Robert Baden-Powell, a Briton and the founding father of the scouting movement. He died and was buried in Kenya, from where I come. When he realised he was dying, he told his followers that if they tried to leave this world a little better than it was when they found it, when their time came, they would die with a feeling that they had achieved their best. As I reflected on that today, I watched the television. Today is a big day in Ireland and the UK as the former British Prime Minister is being buried. Opinion is divided on the legacy she has left. Some people, who are demonstrating, have said her legacy is not positive while others have said she has left a positive one. It depends on where one stands. I asked myself what legacy we will leave in the context of climate change, which has both divided the world and brought it together.

We have come from Africa, where climate change is a real issue. We do not need scientists to tell us things are changing in Africa. I refer to a recent report by the UN. In sub-Saharan Africa, where 70% of people are farmers, crop yields are expected to fall by 20% due to climate change. Some 60% to 65% of arable land is already affected by degradation and drought and it is expected to decline further, resulting in serious food shortages, intensifying hunger and malnutrition. That was highlighted in the meeting hosted by the Mary Robinson Foundation.

We are seeing climate change in Africa, as my colleague mentioned. The habitats of 40% of species may be destroyed altogether. That means animals such as elephants and porcupines face extinction. Rainfall is predicted to decline by 10% by 2050 and by 2025, 480 million people in Africa could be living in water-stressed areas. An estimated 30% of Africa's coastal infrastructure will be lost to rising seas by 2080. These are realities which we are seeing as we speak.

All of us, north and south, are seeing the intensity of climate change. What is different, as we are hit by climate change calamities, is that people in Ireland, the United States and other industrialised countries have the capacity to absorb the impacts, but what about Africa? A couple of months ago, we saw the swift response to Hurricane Sandy, although many people suffered and we really sympathise with them. One can imagine what would happen if such a big event happened in Africa. There would be no capacity to respond to it and only the international community would respond. It would be really different from what happened in the United States.

Climate change is affecting us, but in different ways. It is like the Titanic in 1912. Those who were weak and were on the lower decks drowned almost immediately. We know of only one woman in this group who survived. However, most of those who were strong and were on the upper decks eventually drowned. This is the same problem. When addressing climate change, we must remember it will affect all of us eventually, so we need to look at in that way. Africa is the lower deck, but none of us will be spared. That is what brings us to the action we are taking.

There is much inertia at global level. The global community, particularly industrialised countries, have taken comfort from what science says. We would like to see more ambitious action being taken. We have led civil campaigns in the United States. The sense we are getting from our colleagues in Christian Aid and elsewhere is that the political and business classes have more influence on the laws to address climate change, and they do not want their businesses to be destabilised. However, we will eventually sink like the Titanic. We must look at things from that perspective and at the laws which will protect the health of the planet while at the same time addressing the challenge we face, namely, the survival of humanity.

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to interrupt Mr. Mwenda, but we are running out of time and we need to give members some time to speak.

Mr. Mithika Mwenda:

As this law is being designed we want to see the evidence of climate change, so the legislation must be ambitious. The proposed 20% is a bit weak. The committee will set the pace for addressing climate change in Ireland. Its recommendations will be borrowed by other countries, so let us ensure the legislation is as ambitious as possible in order to save humanity and help it survive.

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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I shall suspend the meeting until after the vote.

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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I ask Ms Cecilia Kibe Muthoni to commence her presentation.

Ms Cecilia Kibe Muthoni:

I work for Kenya Climate Justice Women Champions, a network of 86 NGOs and community-based organisations that are women-led and women-dominated, which has a membership of slightly more than half a million.

I appreciate the opportunity to convey our sentiments to the committee. I feel quite humbled to have an opportunity to visit parliaments around the world. I shall commence by almost echoing what my colleagues have said about the impact of climate change on African countries. I do not need to reiterate their comments because they clearly stated what we are going through.

I emphasise that climate change not only is a threat to the achievement of sustainable development and poverty reduction but has the capacity to affect achievement of the millennium development goals. This is more evident in the African continent because the climate badly affects communities. While we take one step towards achieving the millennium development goals we go back two steps because of erosion by climate change. It is not something we are taking for granted; it is something that is making us lead our life, because we do not know what will happen next to Africa. We realise that mitigating climate change requires the sustainable participation of stakeholders - that is, the Government, civil society and the private sector. This is the only way everybody will have an opportunity to develop an initiative that will reduce the vulnerability of communities to climate change. If the three stakeholders do not work together, one may go ahead and take actions that are not favourable to either of the others. It is very important that we work together with our governments, the private sector and the farming communities in order that in advance of any planning we put the sentiments and the actions together.

Political goodwill is critical as far as the response to climate change is concerned because it strengthens and prepares the country for action towards mitigation of and opposition to climate change. We know very well from our country and, I think, also in Ireland that the politicians are the lawmakers. As the laws will lead to actions to mitigate climate change, it is important to ensure political goodwill. The politicians are elected to their positions by their communities and the communities also determine the next group of politicians. It is good that there is a payback through the introduction of policies that will reduce the vulnerabilities likely to be brought about by climate change. We Africans look upon Ireland as being one of the industrialised countries that is assisting in mitigating climate change. The action that Ireland takes will determine the life or survival of the African community. It is indicative of the responsibility Ireland has towards supporting the African continent. Therefore, we look at the actions that come from Europe, particularly those which have the human face and compassion to consider the sustainability of the continent in general. When I speak about climate change I think of the impact on women in the African continent. When we see what is happening in developed countries such as Ireland we feel as if our problems are already solved. We pray that Ireland does what we are expecting of it.

We are happy to learn that Ireland proposes to establish environmental regulations which will, in the long term, be applied in implementing the country's investment plan. When we are considering the investment plan in Ireland, those plans are not just meant for the Irish people; they will also have an impact on the African continent, directly or indirectly. I would like the legislation to have an impact on other countries in the developing world. This will only be realised if we are sensitive to the plight of countries such as Kenya and other areas of the African continent. It is clear that the private sector plays a significant role in tackling the impact of climate change by supporting green economic growth. This is what should inform the legislation as it makes provision for commitments to emissions reduction. However, it is more important to see a human face while making commitments to emissions reduction. Business is important, but we need to give it a human face, because the consumers of the products are in the African continent. If we do good business but do not have consumers then the products will be on the shelves and will not be consumed. It is important to consider the lives and welfare of the consumers who will consume the products of business.

The climate change Bill considers the risks and opportunities to provide for innovative and effective ways of addressing climate issuesin a manner that will result in a climate that is resilient and will secure the future of Ireland and of the African continent. That goes without saying. Ireland has tried to save the developing world while also saving itself. It may not affect us in the short term but in the long term it will spill over to the whole globe.

Historical gas emissions and projections for how they can change by 2030 will create renewed hope in Africa and the world. Based on what it is and where we are heading, it will determine the existence of the African world and inform us whether there is a commitment to mitigation, in which case it will give us hope that all will be well and that we shall continue to engage and live in these continents.

Politicians in Ireland have an obligation to leave a legacy. The best legacy they can leave is that there is food to save human life, because that will translate to generations. From Kenya we avail of the opportunity to appeal to the members of this committee to pass the legislation that will create a good legacy in order that we and our children's children can continue to enjoy what they have done.

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Cecilia Kibi Muthoni and all the guests for a detailed and thought-provoking presentation. Certainly they have given us much food for thought. I invite members to contribute but would ask for brief comments and specific questions.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the delegates for their presentations. It is important for us to hear about the direct effects of climate change in Africa. We can see the effects of climate change in Ireland but it has a greater impact in Africa given that it is prone to drought and other weather extremes. We have not escaped it here. In respect of the climate change Bill, Ms Maanda Ngoitiko mentioned the importance of including firm targets which should be legally enforceable. It is obvious that the delegation considers that important. I too appreciate the importance of firm targets and, in fact, introduced a climate change Bill which provides for targets. Within the European Union, Ireland must reach a certain target by 2050. It is important to have five-year targets, or five-year carbon budgets, as they are called, as we have a different government every four or five years and various governments may not meet those targets.

If one does not do that, one runs into what is called a "carbon cliff", or a series of such cliffs from here to 2050. What are the delegation's views on that? There appears to be an idea that the State can leave it to each sector to come up with its own proposals and that we will, hopefully, hit the targets. That cannot happen. We must set clear targets for each sector. Allowing each sector to set its own targets makes it more of a wish list.

Ireland is a relatively small island, but is a huge food producer. Harvest 2020 sets a target to increase the amount of food being produced by 50% between 2011 and 2020. A very significant proportion of carbon emissions in the State are from agricultural activity. It catches us in a pincer movement. On the one hand, we must increase our food production to satisfy international demand while on the other we must reduce carbon emissions. On the plus side, most of the emissions come from grazing cattle as opposed to indoor feeding or the transportation of food over long distances. We have a particular issue due to our agricultural sector, which needs to be quantified accurately. We must get the balance right. While producing large amounts of food, we must quantify accurately the mitigation factors in forestry and open grassland. One of delegates may wish to offer a view on that.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the delegation to Ireland and to the committee. They have had a very active few days to debate the issue of climate change and its impact. I welcome the fact that they are coming here to provide an international perspective on how they are affected. As an Irish parliamentarian, I would like to give my perspective to them.

This is a significant food producing country which has many natural resources that it does not fully exploit currently. That brings its own challenges in terms of reducing our carbon footprint and reaching targets set by the EU or through our own climate change legislation, the debate on which continues. We are a responsible State which is interested in assisting other countries, which our track record of assistance to countries that have been in trouble in the past proves. The delegation mentioned first-hand accounts of drought while other countries have experienced flooding. I saw on the news some contributors to the conference explain how the ice caps are melting. All of these points must be listened to carefully. The problem I have - and I will be straight with the delegation, which must hear an Irish perspective - is agriculture. We must produce food. We contribute enormously to food security and must find sustainable ways to produce food which do not produce an excessive carbon footprint. Progress has been made in Ireland with the reduction in emissions per litre of milk by 13% in the last 20 years. We have a very sustainable, grass-based agriculture system which results in high methane production, which contributes a great deal to our carbon footprint. We have a dilemma as to whether we set targets to cut the amount of methane produced by reducing the national herd. Cutting the number of cows and beef cattle will automatically have a detrimental effect not only on the economy of which the agriculture sector is a main driver and contributor to recovery from recession, but also on food production and food security.

I am being very honest in pointing out that this is the dilemma for Irish politicians. We must try to bring stakeholders with us to ensure that they adapt, innovate and formulate new agricultural practices which allow them to continue to produce food at a sustainable rate while also reducing carbon emissions. I suspect that is the reason national targets are not being set. We must bring stakeholders with us. Many environmentalists and NGOs say in the context of renewable energy that we must reduce carbon emissions by improving renewable energy technologies, but when major renewable projects are proposed - as with the large-scale wind energy projects in the midlands - some of the same environmentalists oppose them. While we want to increase renewable energy sources to reduce our carbon footprint, we have a conflict also. I have a problem with that. As a nation, we must decide whether we are going to reduce our carbon emissions. If so, we must be serious about how we achieve that.

In other areas, we are making progress. In low carbon electricity generation, a generation station in Great Island, which was dependent on oil and which was producing 240 MW of power, is being converted to a 460 MW generating station based on gas, which is far more sustainable and will decarbonise electricity generation in the State. I want to assist and to reduce our carbon footprint. We are a very small country and must protect those sectors that are driving our economy and contributing to food security. I do not say this out of personal business interest as I am not a farmer. We must move forward sustainably while bringing stakeholders with us. By simply setting targets, we could put all of that in jeopardy and find ourselves in a far worse position than the one we are in.

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Stanley always strikes the right balance.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The delegation is very welcome. I had the privilege of being at Dublin Castle for part of the conference and would have liked to have spent a great deal more time there. Certainly, I picked up on the key points. We will have the opportunity to view the sections I missed at a later stage.

We referred at the beginning of the session to the heads of the Bill on climate change. The heads of the climate action and low carbon development Bill are being brought through the committee and we will report to the Minister after taking evidence from various sectors. I am the first to accept that there are flaws in the Bill, which this process will be helpful to consider and tease out. There are also very positive elements in the proposed legislation which have not been touched on. Even as it stands, the proposals will put us in the top three member states in terms of the provisions being made. They cover the targets we have accepted for 2020 and will automatically embed any future international agreements to which we sign up. They also ensure that there will be an annual report to the Dáil on progress being made by the Government to achieve international targets on climate change. The other key element is the independent committee which will provide independent commentary on whether Ireland is achieving its targets.

I do not mean to put anyone on the spot but I am anxious to hear specifics. When people talk about targets, to which elements of those targets are they referring? The previous Administration attempted to bring a Bill through and got caught up in a legal quagmire. It started to mention targets but said they would not be judicial but aspirational. The heads of the proposed Bill have taken the aspirational element out and created solid targets and annual reporting procedures to the Dáil.

If the delegates have read the Bill in detail, I would be interested in hearing solid proposals for these targets and changes and if there are weaknesses in the Bill, how we could strengthen it. That would be a very good starting point. This is the first group to appear before the committee to give evidence on the heads of the Bill.

The issue is complicated. While we can produce food in Ireland because our agriculture is grass-based, other countries which can produce higher quantities have a more detrimental effect on the climate. That is how I see the international aspect of this issue. There are areas where certain foods can be produced in a climate-beneficial way. Ireland is more suited to producing milk and beef than the rest of Europe where this is done in a closed system, whereby animals are housed. We need to work out what the balance should be. It is interesting to hear about the African experience.

I recently read a book about Bobby Kennedy. When he returned from Africa in the 1960s, he made a speech in the Senate in which he said the industrialised world was dieting to control obesity - that has not changed - while Africa suffers hunger and starvation. The problem of food security has not been addressed in the past 50 years because we still face starvation in certain areas. That has to be an element of the work on climate change.

Mr. Mithika Mwenda:

It is a big challenge for a country like Ireland to reduce emissions, yet sustain its economy and move to low-carbon development pathways. The discussion the world over - this is the topic of our discussions - is on how to move on from emissions reduction. There is a particular debate on low-carbon development pathways and how to do this is a dilemma. It is indisputable that the current model of development is unsustainable. Our proposal is that there are ways to do this. We need to start avoiding profligate lifestyles and to pursue agriculture in such a way that we reduce emissions. The citizens of a country need to discuss how to do this. The Bill provides a very good opportunity for discussion, but in its current form, it is weak. We need to learn from Scotland which has a very ambitious law. It is important to look at it and see how it is being put into practice.

Ms Maanda Ngoitiko:

It is always a big challenge to find a balance. What we need to do is to create a win-win. It is true that there is starvation in Africa and that it is increasing, but that is linked with injustice, lack of equity in the distribution of resources, a lack of environmental awareness, and the accumulation of resources and economic growth. The challenge is how to create a balance without compromising economic growth, while reducing emissions and creating a situation where people would not suffer as a result of what we were doing.

One question was: should Ireland set a five year target in the Bill? This is important and maybe the targets can be adopted by each Government when it takes office. The targets could be set for five or ten years. Ireland has shown that in the past ten years it has reduced emissions by over 13%. If it could reduce them by 30%, that would be progress.

Ms Cecilia Kibe Muthoni:

I will just make a comment. First, I appreciate that Ireland has made some moves to bring about production systems that will reduce carbon emissions. If I am not wrong, there was some resistance from NGOs. It is not possible, however, to reduce carbon emissions without taking some risks. Carbon emissions reduction is all about risks and opportunities. It is good that legislators are taking up the challenge of sensitising stakeholders, particularly the farming community, in order that whatever systems they come up with or recommend in their discussions will be environmentally friendly. If there are some risks, we should have a plan to mitigate them. One that has come out clearly is that, like us, the Government feels the need to cut down on emissions. What is lacking is public participation. In Kenya we drafted a climate change Bill in a particular way, but we made one small mistake - we did not have enough public participation. The Bill, however, was technically sound. It was applauded by parliamentarians and passed, but the public participation was lacking. The point is that the public - the private sector, the farming community, everybody - will live with the Bill. I would like to see the Irish Government provide an opportunity for further consultation with the farming community and traders. It will then come up with something that will be very acceptable. Whatever is included in the Bill will affect those who support it, but they will be ready to comply with the legislation because it originates from them.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I wholeheartedly welcome our guests. This is probably one of the most important discussions any country can and will have because we are all bound by this. As Sorley McCaughey said, quoting Baden Powell, if we can leave this world a little better than it was when we came into it, that should be our aim. I hope, as politicians, we have that aim too. All politicians have it at heart. They would not be in politics otherwise because for everything one gets out of politics, one must put an awful lot back in. That is definitely my aim and I hope we will be able to do this with the climate change measures we are taking. Setting targets is one way to do this, with making sure they are legally binding, a matter which will be up for discussion at this committee. Deputy Coffey has pointed out that there are ways to do things.

Doing A may have a knock-on effect on B. There must be a better way than the old way, however.

In Ireland we are at present having a debate on renewable energy as a replacement for fossil fuel. One of the major greenhouse gases is carbon dioxide produced from fossil fuels which the people of the country consume. We must get acceptance for wind and other forms of energy. There are always naysayers when new projects are proposed. Education plays a role in this regard. It is important that we outline in detail the measures and their impacts on the country and reducing fossil fuel consumption. Targets are valuable but other measures can also be implemented to help us reach these targets.

Agriculture is an important aspect of our community. How do we change the farming way of life? Farmers are increasing production, which will mean increased production of methane and nitrous oxide. We cannot stop cows from producing methane but the scientific community could help us to find ways of reducing their output. All of us have committed to reaching the targets agreed under the Kyoto protocol but we are now aiming to go beyond these targets and lead by example in the six months of our Presidency of the Council of the European Union. We should put our heads together to play our part in this committee and strengthen global action on the outer horizon. Ireland may be a small country but even a small country can make a difference. What will make a big difference, however, is strengthening action on the global stage. It is great to set targets in Ireland but what about America, China and India? We have to bring the globe with us.

I am playing a small part in these efforts in that I was sent to Europe by this committee for discussions on renewable energy. I am helping to organise a conference in Dublin Castle on 20 and 21 June on renewable and sustainable energy. We need to debate these issues. MEPs from all over Europe will be attending that conference. Producers and investors need certainty if they are to continue investing in wind energy. We will investigate the approach being taken in Scotland on wave energy because we do not want that country to steal the rug from under our feet. We want to be at the races when it comes to renewable energy.

I am the spokesperson on these matters in the Seanad - it is still there - and we consider legislation and our amendments are sometimes accepted. All of us will play our part to bring about change. It is easy as a politician to say we are going to do this, that or the other.

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Senator to conclude.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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We all want to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but what is the best way to do so? We may be able to meet our targets but other measures must also be considered. Targets are probably a good idea but I will have to consider them further. I want to see the impact of targets. I do not want them to put the country's farmers out of business. It is bad enough as it is.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the delegation for their presentations. They have crystalised for me the fact that we are coming from very different places. Their focus is on keeping their people alive, while ours is on trying to keep our businesses going. They have been clear and articulate in their arguments and it is important that we take cognisance of them. Approximately 800 million people around the world are struggling to put food and water on their tables. That is appalling. Even though we are a small country we have to play our part in the European Union's efforts to reduce carbon dioxide emissions. The bigger players present a challenge, as other speakers have noted, but if we are steadfast we will lead by example. The various sectors have become more open to the argument that they will benefit in the long term from investing in this area. I refer to the agriculture, transport and energy sectors, all of which face significant challenges in doing their jobs more efficiently.

Education of our young people through, for example, the green schools programme has been very effective. If each of us makes a difference we will experience the benefits.

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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I draw members' attention to the vote that is being called in the Dáil.

Michelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not know much Swahili, but I welcome our east African friends.

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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The natural Mayo dialect.

Michelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Sometimes it is not that intelligible.  I thank them for their presentations on an issue that demonstrates that we are a global village.  What we do here has repercussions elsewhere.  As other speakers have noted, the Western world has a grave obligation to take steps to address these complex issues.  It is a matter not only of education but also of thinking about the lifestyles we enjoy in the Western world, which rely heavily on fossil fuels.  Costs will be incurred in moving away from that reliance.  Already people in Ireland are facing fuel poverty.

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for interrupting the Deputy, but we will have to suspend for the vote. She is more than welcome to speak further afterwards. Deputy Bannon may make a brief comment if he so wishes.

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the delegation from Africa and compliment them on their submission. No matter where people live in the world, they have natural rights to an organised lifestyle and proper food on the table.

The scientific case for action is beyond doubt, no matter where one lives. We need a collective will to act within the five continents. The crux of the matter is bigger industrial nations such as America. It is very difficult to bring those people on board. Climate change and policies to deal with global warming must be at the heart of public policy, no matter where we are in the world. We have not gone over the mark in building climate change policy proofing into everything we do. It is important to do so.

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry but we will be late for the vote unless I cut short Deputy Bannon. I sincerely thank our guests. I am sorry the meeting must end like this but it is due to the pressure of parliamentary business. Our guests have given us much information that the committee will digest and respond to in due course.