Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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We are resuming in public session and I am conscious of the time. I once heard a story about a fellow who, when he was told during a public meeting that the Deputies had to go to the Dáil Chamber to vote, said "We did not vote for you to be in the Dáil voting". It is part of the job. I apologise for the delay.

We welcome the officials from the Department of Education and Skills to discuss whole school approaches to mental health and bullying. The Children's Mental Health Coalition will give a presentation on these two topics.

I welcome the following: Margaret Grogan, regional director of the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, who will give a presentation on mental health; Deirdre McDonnell, principal officer, central policy unit, who will give a presentation on bullying; Doreen McMorris, assistant chief inspector; Frances Shearer, national co-ordinator social and personal health education support services; and Hubert Loftus, responsible for teacher allocation and school governance policies.

I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

The opening statements the witnesses have submitted to the committee will be published on the committee website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the same parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make changes against a person outside the Houses, or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Ms McDonnell and Ms Grogan to make their opening remarks.

Ms Margaret Grogan:

We are happy to go straight to questions if that helps.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for coming here today and for their presentations made at the launch of the guidelines in Molesworth Street. They are very welcome and overdue. I commend the Department on coming forward with them. What resources does the Department feel will be required to ensure that the objectives set out in the guidelines will be achieved, and to support teachers and other school staff to ensure that we protect our children as well as we can and give them the support they require. The reduction this year in the guidance counselling service, following last year's budget decision to remove the €32 million allocated to guidance counselling hours, requiring schools to use teaching hours instead and draw on the same funding pot, has had a serious impact on ensuring best protection of students' mental health. Guidance counsellors are trained to assist students and without them we would need to develop a support network and similar service to enact the guidelines. It is counter-productive to on the one hand try to introduce guidelines and on the other diminish the capacity of schools to support students as best they can. We must ensure that there is a whole-school approach and all members of staff must be aware of students' needs and play their part. There is, however, a one-to-one service provided by qualified guidance counsellors who have gone through the appropriate training. It is important that whenever somebody is referred and knocks on the guidance counsellor's door there is somebody behind that door. They often deal with crises, which need to be addressed immediately.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Due to time constraints I might bank some questions. I call Deputy O'Brien followed by Deputy Bannon.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will not repeat Deputy McConologue's questions. The guidelines build on the existing processes in some schools, others are more advanced and ready to roll out programmes. What resources are needed for this? What monitoring processes will be put in place to see how well schools adhere to or implement the guidelines?

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I acknowledge the hard work and dedication of the Children's Mental Health Coalition and its various member organisations. It is very worthwhile. We need a more child-centred approach to this issue. Last year during the course of the debate before the referendum on the Thirty-First Amendment of the Constitution (Children) Bill it was discovered and brought to our notice that over 30,000 children had welfare concerns, some of which related to bullying and other issues such as mental health problems. While supports for parents dealt with many of those, many related to mental health problems.

Our system has changed compared with that of two generations back. Most parents work and there is very little communication between parents and children, due to financial constraints. After school care systems are largely underdeveloped here compared with other countries. That needs to be addressed fairly urgently. Children do not need money. We did not have money when we were going school. Money is given to children today and they have plenty of cash. They need other supports, they need adults and personnel around them to take an interest in their points of view. This is absent from a child's life today. When I was going to school I never heard a child say he or she was fed up. We did not have the same number of electronic devices as children today have. There is an absence of services for young children when their parents are working. How can this be addressed? There is a serious lack of resources and support for children and there are real enemies which lead to personal tragedies in many children's lives. Something needs to be done to address this situation.

Ms Margaret Grogan:

The Minister has allocated €500,000 this year to begin implementing the action plan on bullying. We are confident we can make progress on that this year with a range of measures to raise awareness, and to train parents, boards of management and teachers. My colleague, Mr. Loftus, will say a few words about guidance.

Mr. Hubert Loftus:

My job in the Department is managing teacher allocations. We operate in a climate in which we have a ceiling on teacher numbers and fixed payroll budgets which we have to manage at a time of increasing demographics. The choice for Government when it was making its budgetary decision on guidance counsellors was to increase the pupil-teacher ratio or to bring guidance within quota. It chose to bring guidance within the standard allocation. It is important to bear in mind that all schools are required to provide guidance within the quota. In the past there were over 700 whole-time equivalent guidance posts. The budget saving yielded 500 posts and we used the extra 200 posts to shelter the most disadvantaged, the DEIS schools.

The 200 DEIS post-primary schools had an increase in their staffing allocation. For example, in the past a 500-pupil DEIS school, which would be fairly typical, would have had an allocation of about 29 teachers plus one guidance post, making a total of 30. Typically, one guidance post would have been allocated for every 500 pupils. Based on the increased staffing allocation given to the DEIS schools this year, that school would have been given 30 posts. In a sense, all the DEIS schools are largely unaffected by the Government decision to bring guidance posts within quota and they were sheltered. However, the non-DEIS schools are affected. A non-DEIS 500-pupil school has to manage guidance counselling within its allocation of 29 teachers. Equally, if the budget decision was different and the pupil-teacher ratio was changed, such a non-DEIS school would have to manage such provision within an allocation of 29 teachers. That is the context here.

On the wider issue of guidance, a whole-school approach is the best way to provide it. It is best that it is not only the sole focus of the guidance teacher in the school. It is the focus of everyone in the school and the whole-school approach is the best way to address it. The management bodies in the school system and the Association of Principals and Deputy Principals provided a framework for schools and gave guidance to them on how to manage within that framework. The focus of it is to maximise the way in which they use their resources. All of us in the public sector have to achieve more with less. That applies to the Department and agencies, and schools are no different. Schools cannot be exempt from that requirement. We shelter them as much as we can. There are clear options in terms of maximising this resource in that as much as possible of the career guidance element is delivered in class settings rather than on a one-to-one basis and that as much of the guidance counsellor's time as possible is targeted towards those pupils who need one-to-one support. I will ask Ms Doreen McMorris to add to that.

Ms Doreen McMorris:

I will speak about the important role guidance counsellors play but I wish to return to the point made about the specialist qualifications of guidance counsellors. It is true they are qualified to provide counselling support for students. It is important to distinguish between that type of support and the type of qualification a professional counsellor would have. The guidance counsellors in our schools undertake a postgraduate qualification. They are first and foremost teachers. They undertake a postgraduate qualification to enable them to provide a guidance counselling service in our schools. That involves counselling support but it also equips them to fulfil a much wider remit, which very much includes planning for guidance. The guidance plan in a school, which should be part of the whole-school plan, is critically important. It should lay out all the different forms of support for students and those supports are delivered by different people in different ways. The one-to-one support provided by guidance counsellors is well recognised as being very important. The Department's circular, which was issued at the time of the removal of the ex quota allocation, clearly states that schools should prioritise guidance counsellors' time for the one-to-one counselling that is necessary. There is no doubt about that, but it is important to realise that many other members of the school community are well positioned to support students in different ways.

As Mr. Hubert Loftus has outlined, schools now have the autonomy to decide how best to use their resources. It might be of interest to the members to note that in 2006 and 2007 the inspectorate undertook inspections in 55 post-primary schools across the different sectors. It is of significance that at that time just under a third of schools were found not to be using their ex quota allocation for guidance. It appears at that time when schools had an ex quota allocation that allocation was not always given to the guidance area. That is an important point to remember. Schools principals and boards now have full autonomy to decide what portion of the overall resourcing should go into this area.

It appears from research that students feel comfortable approaching a range of different people for support - it is not always the guidance counsellor. Some ESRI research conducted in 2006 shows that also. There is general recognition that schools have an important role in terms of prevention and identifying students with needs but it is not as clear who should be providing such support. It is important to remember that in terms of our young people. Responsibility in this respect must be spread across the area and young people have a wide variety of needs.

Ms Margaret Grogan:

The key to the successful implementation of the mental health guidelines lies in taking a co-ordinated whole-school approach and the guidelines set out the existing elements that are available to schools such as school staff evaluation processes, the social, personal and health education, SPHE, curriculum, whole-school guidance planning, the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, continuum of support and the inter-agency collaboration and support that is available externally to schools. The guidelines set out the integration of all those elements which are already in place. The services for schools to support this are already in existence. For example, the Social, Personal and Health Education Support Service is available to provide training for schools, and my colleague, Ms Frances Shearer, may wish to say more about that.

I represent NEPS. Our service is available to support schools in promoting mental health. In collaboration with the SPHE support service, we would be available to schools to build on the professional development work they do with teachers. We would be available to advise and support schools on whole-school guidance planning and on developing student support structures and teams. Schools can draw on the expertise in our service for their developmental needs. We also provide Incredible Years teacher training which focuses on behaviour management and classroom management. We are currently rolling out the Friends for Life programme. It uses a cognitive behavioural approach to managing anxiety and stress and is applicable at primary and post-primary level. The elements in that programme complement and are part of the SPHE curriculum. In addition, the NEPS provides guidelines and support to schools to deal with crises or tragic events that may occur. This is very important in terms of prevention. Our focus is on early intervention and prevention. The continuum of support which has been rolled out by NEPS to primary schools since 2007 and to post-primary schools since 2010 is a framework for schools whereby we ask them to identify early on the needs and supports young people require before those needs become serious difficulties. In terms of our work with schools, it is on that area we will be focusing our attention in the coming years.

Ms Frances Shearer:

I wish to say a few words about my own experience of having been involved in the SPHE support service for the past 12 years. We have had a stand-alone SPHE support service for all that time, which has been a considerable time in which to support schools to embed a subject like SPHE which was very new 12 years ago. It came into the curriculum in 2000. Over that time I have observed a growing awareness among schools of the importance of subjects like SPHE, but the other big change in the past three or four years has been the high level of awareness among schools of the importance of the whole-school context. There was somewhat of a view that SPHE dealt with health subjects and young people with problems went to the guidance counsellor. There has been a much broader understanding of this area during the past number of years and that has been evidenced in the past four or five years in the improved and significantly greater level of engagement we have had with schools. Our numbers of teachers coming out have doubled in the past three or four years and the largest source of that increase has been whole-staff work. There has been a tremendous appetite from schools for workshops on promoting the welfare of students; it is probably our most popular whole-staff workshop. Bullying prevention and intervention is the next most popular one.

The concept of student well-being in the broadest sense, supported by the whole school, is becoming very well established. The mental health guidelines will obviously support that. Another very important development is the new junior cycle framework, which is permeated with the concept of well-being. This will constitute further support and impetus for schools towards taking good care of young people.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I will not keep the delegation long because, in fairness to it, it has covered many of the issues I was going to raise, particularly on raising awareness among and teaching parents. The latter is very important.

I welcome the allocation of €500,000 for the action plan on bullying. While it is a step in the right direction, the funding will be very much diluted when divided between all the schools. I hope we will see more in this regard.

I have a couple of questions. Is there monitoring of students' use of social media, such as Facebook and Bebo, within schools? Do the delegates ever use the services of Jigsaw? It is very popular among students. Could representatives of Jigsaw be asked to give talks to students?

In my locality within the past few months, two young boys from the same school committed suicide. They were of different cultures and nationalities and I am not sure whether the two incidents were related. This was an eye-opener and it was shocking. One often wonders what could be on young people's minds because they do not have worries about repaying mortgages, finding a job or other such troubles. I listened to what was said on the radio over the past few days, and about . I actually thought I was broad-minded but what I heard was an absolute eye-opener regarding what young people have to deal with. I raised two children and never encountered anything like what was mentioned occurring. It was shocking to learn that teenagers could-----

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Can we focus on questions, please?

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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My questions are on social media monitoring, Jigsaw and the teaching of parents.

Mary Moran (Labour)
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The delegates have covered a lot and I thank them for attending. I have a couple of questions. How effective is SPHE as a subject? Is it working? Is there feedback on the turnover of teachers who are teaching SPHE? As a teacher, I was very often told that new teachers are handed SPHE classes, and that students regard SPHE as a filler class because it is not an exam subject. It is very important that the SPHE curriculum be followed completely because the course content is excellent. It certainly does a lot to combat bullying and it allows for it to be discussed.

The Department's inspectorate evaluates the schools' anti-bullying policies through the SPHE subject inspections. Is there feedback on whether schools' anti-bullying policies are being implemented? Is there proof of this?

Given the changes to the allocation for career guidance teachers, is there provision in third level colleges to teach counselling to those doing teacher training? It is a question of a whole-school approach whereby all teachers can offer counselling, albeit not at a professional level. Students should be able to feel comfortable discussing matters with any teacher, not just the guidance counsellor. Is there teacher training in this regard, be it for primary or secondary teachers?

Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I would like to follow on from Senator Moloney’s point on social media and the guidelines that are in place in schools. Facebook and Twitter have no guidelines, or else the guidelines are very sketchy. Having been on boards of management down through the years, especially in secondary schools, I noted that board members had to act as judge and jury in deciding whether a young person who had not settled in well on making the transition from primary school should stay in the school and be given a second chance or be taken out of the school. One evening, after having dealt with the cases of five or six young people at a meeting of the board of management, I was traumatised. We must put in place a system for boards of management of secondary schools in this regard. The experience I had was one that I would not like anybody else to endure.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Interagency collaboration was mentioned. What has been the input of the Special Education Support Service and CAMHS to the various guidelines produced recently on bullying and mental health strategies?

Continuous professional development for teachers was touched upon by Senator Moran. With regard to NEPS, a number of schools have access to private assessments. How is NEPS focusing on the schools that do not? Is there a policy in this regard? What I experienced, which may have changed in the two years since I was in the classroom, was that clinical assessments in respect of behavioural problems were not offered through NEPS. Is there a policy to change that such that children with behavioural problems may be assessed?

Senator Moran referred to the new four-year Bachelor of Education qualification and the two-year higher diploma qualification. Is there capacity in teacher training for greater emphasis on anti-bullying and mental health strategies?

Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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My question was on boards of management.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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We have that question.

Ms Deirdre McDonnell:

I will give a quick summary and some of my colleagues may then add to it.

With regard to monitoring, as raised by Deputy O'Brien, we have a couple of relevant actions in the action plan on bullying with regard to monitoring in SPHE inspections and whole-school evaluation. It is a question of building it in for the future in schools' self-evaluation.

With regard to some of the cyber issues that were raised, schools generally have acceptable-use policies. There is guidance from Webwise on how to develop them in a template. We have recommended in the action plan on bullying that the bullying policy in a school be linked to the code of behaviour and other relevant policies, such as acceptable-use policies. This is because bullying cannot be regarded as a stand-alone issue; the policy on it needs to be linked to other relevant policies.

Ms Margaret Grogan:

I will start with Jigsaw. There has been close collaboration between the services of the Department and Jigsaw. The Meath mental health project was a pilot project in which there was an integrated approach to addressing the needs of schools in respect of mental health. It involved the HSE, NEPS, SPHE support service, guidance counsellors, etc.

The learning from this has been collated and evaluated, and it will apply in future to collaborative work.

As services are localised and there is not a standard approach across the country, it is important that at a local level agencies and services come together depending on how they are configured. NEPS and the SPHE support service will be collaborating, where appropriate, with Jigsaw approaches. That will be informed by the learning that is already there.

As regards psychological and behavioural assessments, NEPS psychologists would be involved with assessment work. We do not automatically start doing psychological assessments. NEPS provides a framework through the continuum of support, which we are slowly rolling out to schools and getting them to buy into it. That is very much an early intervention, prevention approach so that we provide consultation, support and advice to schools as to how they can best use their existing resources to meet the needs of young people without resort to seeking a psychological assessment. In that way, we hope we will reduce the demand for psychological assessment. We will then be able to see the young people who need that individual approach in order to reduce that demand.

With regard to access to clinical assessment, we are engaged in conversation with CAMHS, the child and adolescent mental health services, and primary care psychology services. We are hoping to work together more closely with them. It is probable that some of the experience from the Meath mental health project would inform our thinking around that. However, we need to collaborate more with them as regards how to support young people who have severe difficulties. It is not just about external agencies, it is also about the schools' role in supporting those young people with external supports. The guidelines provide good evidence-based advice for schools on their role in supporting students to keep them in school.

As regards the number of assessments, we would not work like that. We do not have waiting lists, for example. We advise schools on how they can do the early intervention and assessment work themselves. We work towards building skills around that within the school.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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I am conscious of time and that two more speakers want to come in. However, I want to get more clarity on my question concerning clinical assessments. If, after a school goes through every possible intervention to benefit a child's needs, they are crying out for a clinical assessment, would NEPS provide that?

Ms Margaret Grogan:

NEPS psychologists are educational psychologists. Is the Deputy referring to clinical psychology?

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Yes.

Ms Margaret Grogan:

That would be a psychological assessment with a view to identifying therapeutic needs that young people might have. NEPS psychologists provide psychological assessment for young people. If they have emotional behavioural difficulties we can do assessments around that, but it would be with a view to informing the school about planning within the school and the provision of education. If there are therapeutic needs or inputs of a clinical nature, that would be for our colleagues in the HSE. We would support the schools and advise on referral. Ideally, if it is a clinical intervention we would support the schools in providing information to the clinical CAMH services. Where possible, we work closely with CAMH services and would advise schools to build relationships and liaison, as well as working out referral pathways. That must be done locally because there is not a standard national approach. It is very much about schools linking in. Our HSE colleagues are aware of the need to be more proactive. I know there is more commitment to providing supports and resources within the HSE for this work.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Does anyone wish to comment before I bring in the final two speakers?

Mary Moran (Labour)
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My questions were not answered.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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In fairness, I did interject. I am sorry.

Mr. Hubert Loftus:

One of Senator Moran's questions was about the implementation of anti-bullying policies. One of the actions in the action plan published in January was to better strengthen the oversight arrangements in schools concerning implementation so that there is a better consistency of approach. We are updating the existing guidelines to take account of that.

Dr. Mona O'Moore, who is an acknowledged expert in the area of anti-bullying, would regard our existing guidelines - although they are a bit dated - as being very good. However, we are strengthening them in terms of better oversight. As part of that, there will be better oversight for the board of management within the school. In addition, the school principal will provide periodic reports to the board of management on incidents of bullying and how they are dealt with. There will be a standardised approach across all schools, including check-lists, monitoring implementation and an annual review of how bullying policy is implemented. That is recorded in the board of management records which ultimately would be available to our inspectorate whenever they are inspecting that school.

Another action within the action plan is for a thematic evaluation of bullying policies generally within the school system.

Mary Moran (Labour)
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I asked if, after the evaluations and subject inspections, the Department was happy with the standard of anti-bullying policies in place.

Ms Doreen McMorris:

In the course of our inspection work, inspectors check that there is an anti-bullying policy in place and, if necessary, they comment on the quality of it.

To answer the question on implementation, they do not check how it is implemented as such. It is not possible in the context of a short visit to a school. However, in the course of our work, questionnaires are administered to parents and students.

On the question of bullying, we have had post-primary parents' questionnaires from over 8,000 parents in 2012. Parents were asked if they were happy with how bullying was dealt with in the school. I just happen to have the exact data here. By way of response, 67% either agreed or strongly agreed. Some 8.7% disagreed and 24% - this is a cause of concern - indicated that they did not know whether or not they were happy. We do that on a regular basis through the questionnaires.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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We have three minutes. I know that Deputy McConalogue and Deputy Jonathan O'Brien will keep their comments brief if they can.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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On that same point, is there a senior manager in the Department of Education and Skills who is responsible for reporting to the Minister on implementing the guidelines and ensuring they happen as best they can? It was said earlier that there is not an inspection as to how effective they are in the school as such, but there is a commentary. As these are new guidelines, is there a senior manager reporting currently within the Department and responsible for trying to roll them out? Can we have a breakdown on the €500,000 worth of resources as to where they are being allocated?

It was mentioned earlier that guidance counsellors provide autonomy to schools. I have often heard the Minister say that while €32 million is being taken away from career guidance, it provides empowerment to schools to make their own decisions on how they provide it. Let us call a spade a spade - that is sugar coating what is effectively a cut to front-line services delivering mental health and guidance counselling to school students.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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I do not wish to cut across the Deputy but I am conscious of time.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. The assistant chief inspector, Ms McMorris, pointed out earlier that in a recent survey, one third of schools were not using their ex-quota allocation for guidance provision for that purpose. They were using it for some other purpose. That is quite alarming and it indicates the problem and wrong-headedness of giving power to schools to decide how they allocate career guidance or counselling services. If they were not providing it in one third of schools when there was an ex-quota allocation for it, how can we now ensure that service is provided in all schools when there is not an ex-quota allocation? Is it the case that they may be told instead to take it from other resources and to cut elsewhere?

Based on that evidence, it will not happen. The Minister is selling this as empowering schools but it is, in effect, a cut, which will make it more difficult to achieve what the guidelines intend.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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In fairness, Deputy, I am conscious of time. It is 2.10 p.m.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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One final question. If there is time, I would like to hear in the context of NEPS what kind of interventions are provided with the two schools to support them to use resources better.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Questionnaires for parents were mentioned. Has anyone asked students how well they think anti-bullying policies are working? Do we have any figures on that? While new guidelines have been put in place, we are considering updating the guidelines on bullying policies and everyone agrees that a whole-school approach is the only way to go, we are developing a situation in which everyone is responsible but no one is accountable. Who is accountable within the school structure if bullying policies are not properly implemented?

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Witnesses should be brief in reply. If they wish, they may forward replies in written form.

Mr. Hubert Loftus:

On accountability, boards of management are the legal entities which manage provision and are required to provide education and implement guidelines and procedures. On the person responsible in the Department for managing this, my job is managing teacher allocation and redeployment. Part of that has been managing the guidance provision and implementing that budget measure. In fairness to the Minister, Deputy Quinn, he was been clear and upfront that it was a budget measure and, as such, would make life more challenging for schools. Equally, he was clear about protecting the most disadvantaged schools by improving their staffing allocations. The other part of my job involves child protection and bullying. My job includes updating the bullying procedures. The action plan was published in January. I have met with education partners and we are on a pathway to have them in place for September.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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I am conscious that Deputy Butler asked about boards of management. Can that be touched on?

Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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What I have noticed-----

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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I am very conscious of time. We have gone way over.

Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Assessments should have been made in primary schools, but they were not. Therefore when one is on a secondary school board of management, one becomes part of the judge and jury. What policies have been put in place for boards of management? Not all bullying takes place in school. It is outside school and in the home also but there are no policies in place for boards of management. I am not getting an answer and I am a little frustrated.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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If the Deputy gives the witnesses an opportunity to speak, he might get an answer.

Mr. Hubert Loftus:

We make clear in our circulars and guidance what the Department's policy is and what is required. Boards of management implement that. The range of supports available to boards of management includes the guidance and they can contact the Department directly. There are also management bodies available for the various sectors to provide support to individual boards.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is not working.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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I must put my foot down. We have all had an opportunity to ask questions.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Then I propose the delegation be invited back.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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I will ask the guests to conclude.

Ms Deirdre McDonnell:

To add to what Mr. Loftus has said, we are developing a training and resource plan for boards of management and parents as part of the action plan on bullying. That will be based on the new procedures which we are developing for roll-out from September. That is what some of the €500,000 will be used for. It will support boards of management and parents to ensure that everybody is fully informed of how to deal effectively with bullying in schools. That is part of the roll-out.

Ms Doreen McMorris:

To address Deputy Jonathan O'Brien's question on student questionnaires. We provide questionnaires to students at primary and post-primary level and ask them about bullying. I do not have the data to hand, but they are asked about how safe they feel in school etc. It is one dimension of how we try to ensure practices are being implemented. They raise questions for individual schools. The questionnaires are all anonymous. In our reports, we refer to the questions that the analysis of the questionnaires raises for schools. If the results for a school are out of kilter with national returns, there are questions for that school.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Members are anxious to continue this discussion and flesh out the issues. We will try to invite the witnesses back at the earliest opportunity. Unfortunately, we have three different presentations from three different groups today and our time is short. I thank the witnesses for their presentations. Before they leave, I acknowledge Daniel and Donald from Drimnagh Castle who are leaving the room. They have been heavily involved in setting up an anti-cyberbullying website in their school.

I welcome the representatives of the Children's Mental Health Coalition. I look forward to their presentation.

Ms Róisín Webb:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak to members today on this important topic. We are pleased to be here. A number of members of the coalition are with me and will be available to answer questions. I will provide introductory remarks which I will keep as brief as possible. With me are Eleanor McClorey from Young Ballymun, Marie-Louise Neary from Headstrong, Annette Clarke, schools facilitator in the Jigsaw Meath project, which was referred to earlier, and Moira Leydon from the ASTI. We expected to attend before the committee on 24 April 2013 and had lined up Professor Margaret Barry, an international expert on this topic, to speak. She addressed a seminar we held last March, which was excellent.

I would like to let the committee know that Professor Barry is not available today but would be available on 24 April if members would like to hear more about this topic.

We welcome the fact that the guidelines have been published. It is an important development. The coalition comprises approximately 55 member organisations from a range of backgrounds and sectors ranging from the children's rights and human rights sectors to the educational and mental health services sector.

We made a submission to the Department of Education and Skills last September on the topic of mental health in the education system. We welcome the publication of the guidelines and the fact that they adopt a whole-school approach. Young people's mental health and well-being are recognised as fundamental to the achievement of educational goals. The economic benefits of early intervention in the area of mental health are well established. Schools are uniquely placed to promote positive mental health but also to pick up on and be an early identifier of students who are in distress and to be a referral point for students.

Members will have copies of a document I prepared. I will not have the time to go through all of it but I will bring the members briefly through it. Studies have shown that it is important to move beyond an individual curriculum-based focus or classroom focus and instead to have a whole-school complex approach to mental health promotion. It is a multi-component approach which involves the whole school and the community, with different levels of intervention and a wide range of people involved. It is quite a complex model to put in place but it is very worthwhile for schools and communities to implement it. There are good examples of how this is being done in Ireland. We have the Jigsaw Meath project, as was mentioned, and Young Ballymun is doing excellent work with primary schools in adopting a whole-school approach. While the guidelines are a very welcome development, vital factors are missing in terms of their implementation, which are needed if the guidelines are to become a reality in schools.

I will first address the issue of resources, which many members raised with the representatives of the Department of Education and Skills. The guidelines for mental health do not bring with them any additional resources to ensure their successful implementation. Schools are expected to implement the guidelines within already thinly stretched resources but fundamentally without access to any additional professional consultation or support. We consider the need for such financial support or resources as twofold, and recognising the fact that there has been a change in the allocation of funding for guidance counsellors, this is all the more crucial.

Schools may need advice, training and support on how best to implement a whole-school approach to this area. While the guidelines provide some guidance on this, which I welcome, Ms Margaret Grogan from the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, talked about the systemic work it does with schools. NEPS has continuously pointed out over the years that it is not sufficiently resourced to do that systematic work with schools to develop a psychologically supportive environment on the scale that is needed because the demands on it for psychological assessments are so high that it does not have the resources required. We argue that resources should be put in place to support schools in doing that.

Schools need to have access to backup and consultation on how to manage the mental health needs of individual students in the educational context. This can sometimes help to shift the focus from referral and assessment, which I appreciate is also important. However, other forms of advice and consultation for schools on how best to support the student within the school setting could involve NEPS, and they should also involve other agencies like CAMHS, the national education support service, and the National Education Welfare Board, NEWB. A range of agencies should be involved.

The lack of funding for implementation of the mental health guidelines is in stark contrast with the allocation of funding for the implementation of the anti-bullying guidelines. I point out for the information of the members that in Scotland it was recently announced that £1 million is to be allocated annually to implement its mental health in schools programme to increase training in specialist skills and service design. It introduced a self-assessment system in 2005, similar to the guidelines we published recently, but it found in recent reviews that this did not meet the requirements of schools. There was a lack of co-ordination, backup and consultation for schools. It has changed its approach on realising that there is a need for more intensive support. It sends out a signal in terms of the priority being given to mental health in the Department of Education and Skills that guidelines have not come with the resources required for their implementation.

I wish to move on to an issue that was raised with regard to clarity of responsibility and the interaction between agencies, which is crucial to the implementation of these guidelines. We need clarity about the relationship among schools, NEPS, CAMHS, primary care psychology services, the NEWB, the National Behaviour Support Service, NBSS, and the Special Education Support Service. Members of the coalition report to us and we have a broad range of mental health professionals involved as well, but there is a lack of clarity around the country on what their role is in terms of mental health in schools. The guidelines state: "As the availability and accessibility of services vary across the country, schools should identify the services available in their area and develop referral protocols with them." This is something to which the Department has referred. It is a very difficult task for schools to figure out on their own. It involves multiple factors, many of which are completely outside their control. I welcome the fact that Ms Margaret Grogan said that NEPS would be working closely with CAMHS on this, but this needs to be dealt with at a national level. There needs to be national policy for inter-agency co-operation, and agreed working practices need to be developed. Any mapping of this inter-agency work should incorporate key officials and senior responsibility for the implementation of the guidelines. This is crucial to establishing proper referral pathways for schools but also to having a consistent nationwide approach. I appreciate that services will differ in local areas. With the imminent appointment of a director of mental health services, there is an opportunity to assign senior responsibility for mental health in schools within that directorate, but it should also be jointly managed and overseen by the Department of Education and Skills in terms of senior responsibility for the area of mental health in schools. We consider this to be crucial.

Another element with regard to the implementation of the guidelines - this leads on from inter-agency collaboration - is the lack of a co-ordination office. We recommend that there should be a HSE liaison office that would advise, organise and oversee this joint agency approach. It would also provide schools with the necessary guidance and advice they need from mental health professionals. This could work at both national and regional level. There could be a national co-ordinator to ensure consistency but at a regional level such an office could facilitate schools in meeting in groups, which would provide for a better use of the various resources with the input of SPHE support staff, HSE health promotion staff, NEPS, NEBS, the Special Education Support Service, local GPs and primary care psychology services. That would provide for a sharing of resources and a sharing of the experience of the whole-school approach within schools, with schools building on knowledge and supporting each other on how to do this within the whole community. Those regional clusters could form part of a national schools mental health network and this could greatly enhance the three tiers of support within the guidelines - support for all, support for some and support for few. In our document we have outlined some of the ways in which that could be done. This would be a clever use of resources, and rather than directing resources to schools, it would maximise those resources and it would enhance inter-agency collaboration. Mental health and well-being in education spans many agencies, and there is a risk that without the assignation of responsibility and without a co-ordination body, this will fall between stools. This is something about which the coalition is very concerned.

I wish to address the final areas of teacher training and a roadmap for schools. Teacher training is an issue that has been raised. I would like to acknowledge the excellent work that the SPHE support service, NEPS and the HSE mental health promotion officers do in terms of providing training. Studies have shown that training in terms of mental health is patchy and inconsistent around the country. The resources of the SPHE support service, the HSE mental health promotion officers and NEPS are not sufficient to provide training on the scale that is needed to implement these guidelines. The coalition in its submission recommended that there should be initial teacher education and continuous professional development on mental health awareness and that this training should include how to recognise when a child or young person is in distress. It should be the responsibility of all teachers to understand and recognise needs in this area to feed into the whole-school approach. The coalition recommended that this should included in training for teachers at all levels, from preschool up to third level. We also stressed the importance of social and emotional learning for very young children in our submission.

It is important that the upskilling and training of teachers is not a one-off occurrence because research shows that it is important to the development of teacher competencies that one does not restrict it solely to training. Extensive evidence supports the need for coaching and feedback to realise the implementation of effective practices in the classroom. Again, we think there are great opportunities in terms of initial teacher training but also in the development of CPD. Within the guidelines there is reference to training that is available in mental health but no specific training has been designed for the implementation of the guidelines.

That leads me to the roadmap for schools in terms of implementing the whole-school approach. While we welcome the guidelines, in many ways the implementation of the whole-school approach is complex. It seeks to make changes in the social and learning environment, strengthen the structures of each school for addressing mental health promotion and promote links between the school and the community. We agree that it takes great commitment from the school and there is a need for school leadership, but we feel that the guidelines are not specific enough in providing the roadmap.

The groups Jigsaw and Headstrong are present today. A whole-school approach to mental health in schools has been put in place by Jigsaw in a small number of schools around the country and its model provides an example of a framework for putting in place a whole-school approach to mental health, as well as the kind of integration of services that is required and the supports that are necessary for schools to successfully implement it. While the guidelines do endorse a whole-school approach, we feel that the roadmap in those guidelines is not sufficiently clear or easy to put in place without those crucial supports for schools to ensure its implementation. We have people present who can answer questions on what is involved.

My final point relates to the guidelines for primary schools. The guidelines that have been produced relate only to post-primary schools. The coalition considers it crucial that guidelines on mental health and social and emotional well-being are introduced from preschools right up to the third level sector. At primary school level this kind of training is often referred to as social and emotional learning. These are critical competencies. They involve skills that help children to calm themselves when angry, to initiate friendships and to resolve conflicts respectfully. At primary school level there is widespread evidence that this kind of social and emotional development has a significant impact on a child’s ability to engage with and adapt to the demands of school.

Ms McClorey from Young Ballymun can tell members a bit more about the situation. Through the support of Young Ballymun, a number of primary schools in the area have implemented a whole-school approach to social and emotional learning. It is done through multi-level Incredible Years initiatives with teachers but also with children and parent components within it. The independent research recently published by Young Ballymun demonstrates significant improvements in the social and emotional well-being of children. A critical dimension to the success achieved in Ballymun is through the whole-school approach to children's social and emotional development based on the implementation of the evidence-based social and emotional learning, SEL, curriculum. It has been integrated in the classroom through management strategies embedded in the delivery of the parent programmes and community organisations. Such an ethos requires support structures. We recommend that the Department seek to put guidelines in place at primary level.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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We have three presentations today and I wish to conclude this section of the meeting at 3 p.m. We want to get the maximum out of the encounter. I urge members to be mindful that they should ask questions rather than make statements. A variety of people are present with different expertise to respond to questions.

Averil Power (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for the presentation, which was most comprehensive. They hit the nail on the head in terms of mental health policy, which is excellent. We said as much when it was launched, but without resources it will not make a difference. It is frustrating for many teachers not to have the necessary supports.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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That is more of a statement than a question.

Averil Power (Fianna Fail)
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What are the priorities? I accept reference has been made to the integration of services. Is there a signal that progress is about to be made in that regard, or are people waiting to hear when the new director for mental health is appointed whether real attention will be given to the area?

What lessons have emerged from the recent projects supported by Headstrong? I did some work with Headstrong and consulted Tony Bates and Orlaith Foley prior to developing the party's policy. We need to have such a model around the country. If we had such services then schools would know how much could be done in the school setting to support children with low-level problems and to create a good environment, normalise talk about positive mental health and get rid of the stigma surrounding mental health issues. We must ensure there are proper community supports with the assistance of projects such as Jigsaw. Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services, CAMHS, must be accessible. That is where the big gap appears to be at the moment. I understand children can wait for up to a year for an appointment with a psychologist with CAMHS.

What lessons were learned from the Headstrong initiative in terms of getting integrated services working locally? How did Headstrong get around the challenges and how can we roll out a model around the country? It would be useful to hear from Ms McClorey about Young Ballymun because it relates to a big gap that exists. It is all very well to intervene with a teenager from the age of 12 upwards but, as was correctly pointed out, problems develop much earlier than that - at preschool and primary level - so it is important that we hear that perspective.

I will conclude with a suggestion. It was useful to have the officials from the Department of Education and Skills present but it would probably be more useful for the committee to meet with officials from the Department of Health. The Vice Chairman alluded to this point also. The gap is with regard to the psychological services, as the behavioural aspect of the issue is not covered by the Department of Education and Skills. I would like the committee to arrange a meeting with officials from the Department of Health as a matter of priority.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to ask Ms Leydon for a teacher’s perspective on the guidelines. Teachers are not immune to economic pressures or to mental health issues. They are being asked to do more with less. How will that affect their ability to implement guidelines and roll out programmes? I accept a whole-school approach is required but there will be a significant focus on the role of teachers in identifying problems and providing early intervention. Given the pressure the members of the ASTI are under, how will that affect the implementation of the guidelines across the board?

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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Could I ask a very quick question?

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Okay, but quickly.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I am delighted members of Jigsaw are present. I did not know they were in the gallery when I spoke about the project earlier. Is any of the €34 million set aside for mental health services by the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, directed to the Jigsaw project?

Ms Róisín Webb:

I might address the involvement of the Department of Health. There has not yet been an announcement on the directorate. An interdepartmental committee was involved with the development of the guidelines but it is notable that the Department of Health officials were from the health promotion section. There was no HSE or CAMHS involvement in the drafting of the guidelines. I am sure the HSE was consulted but there was no official consultation with CAMHS or the specialist CAMHS advisory group. We raised the issue previously. As was said earlier about the Special Education Support Service, more could be done in terms of collaboration between the Departments of Health and Education and Skills on the issue. Liaison is of key importance.

The new child and family support agency in the Department of Children and Youth Affairs has a major role to play in terms of mental health and education. The issue must be cross-departmental for it to work. I will hand over to Ms Neary to respond to questions on Headstrong, Jigsaw and funding.

Ms Marie-Louise Neary:

In terms of the lessons learned, the Jigsaw Meath schools model represents the bringing together of health and education and is an example of how that works. It is about building the capacity of the entire school to be a more supportive environment, which aligns itself to the whole-school approach and buys very much into it. In doing that it creates awareness around the schools of where young people can seek help, normalising that and making it okay to seek help. They know the support exists within the school from the HSE primary care psychologists, NEPS and SPHE support services. All of those services have been brought together to work in an integrated and concentrated way. Perhaps Ms Clarke wishes to add to what I have said.

Ms Annette Clarke:

As regards lessons that have been learned, when I read the guidelines I realised that the work Jigsaw has done in County Meath proves that they will work.

However, a great deal of effort and energy went into the past three years of Jigsaw Meath to get it up and running and to integrate the services.

Jigsaw Meath came out of the tragedy in a small town in County Meath where there was a cluster of suicides in 2005 and 2006. I was a guidance counsellor in a school at that time. A number of other suicides occurred also, and there was a great fear that the number of suicides would escalate. The Health Service Executive was wonderful. Its personnel came into the school and helped us. From that day on we knew we could work together in a collaborative way. I was the guidance counsellor and the psychologists were able to work with me to screen out children who were at risk, and I was able to have a direct referral route from the school into the services of the HSE. It all started in 2006, and the project got moving in 2007. It has been developing, and bringing psychologists into the school to consult with staff members has shown that the guidelines will work.

In terms of the way Jigsaw Meath works, we have two essential structures in the schools. We have an adolescent health team, which consists of two pupils, two parents, management of the school, the social, personal and health education, SPHE, teacher, the guidance counsellor, and one or two other teachers or year heads if they are interested and available to take part. That is the overarching group, which does an analysis of what each school needs in terms of mental health and identifying the difficulties. It can then put in place measures which will help a particular school for that particular year. It is self-evaluation in the school. That is at one level. At another level in the school there is a Jigsaw care team. Did I mention that psychologists are on the adolescent health team as well? On the care team, the psychologists come into the school and sit with the teachers, the guidance counsellor, the SPHE teacher and the special needs teachers. They are able to discuss students who have particular difficulties and therefore can obtain consultation and help. That gives the staff confidence. We are able to work together in a professional way and therefore we can decide on the children who need to be referred outside the school or what we can do within the school to help those children. We can bring in the entire staff in terms of making changes and observing or improving on behaviours. It is a whole integrated approach. The psychologist comes into the school and helps the staff. That is what we have found.

When I read the guidelines I could not believe they were so close in many ways. Jigsaw Meath proves that the guidelines will work, but only with resources. Jigsaw Meath is currently working on goodwill. I am working in a voluntary capacity. The schools do not have any extra money. Counselling will be needed more frequently because it is obvious to me that if all the staff are working with the students and identifying students who have problems, those children will need help, but the average teacher does not have time to sit down and give them an hour of their time to discuss issues. The staff try to listen and give them time, but we need more counselling rather than less because the more distress one picks up in the school, the more help is required. Before children are referred out, we need proper evaluations and counselling within the school to see if a student can be helped in place.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Ms Leydon was asked specifically about the mental health issues in the teaching body, and Ms Clarke was asked about the area-based approach and the strategy in Ballymun. Does Ms Leydon want to respond to that?

Ms Moira Leydon:

Deputy O'Brien's question was about capacity issues in the first instance and then about teachers and mental health. That is quite an issue that is emerging, but I will take the latter part last.

I am very familiar with the work Jigsaw does, but every time I listen to its representatives I continue to be impressed in that we do have solutions to problems. The members are practical people. They are legislators, and they want solutions. They do not want a critique of what is wrong but to get good guidance on what might work from people like us who are on the ground. Capacity is extremely problematic. Putting on my ASTI hat, this day next week at our conference we will launch the third survey in a row of cutbacks in schools. Schools have an average loss of 2.1 subject teachers. To put that in context, as every subject teacher covers 33 children, if a school loses two teachers, 66 children have to be sorted out. Those 66 children cannot be parked during the day. They have to be dealt with, and our survey will show how that can be done. What I am saying is that the entire thrust of the guidelines is the whole-school approach, but when we have loss of capacity whereby teaching staff are removed from the school, the capacity is severely impaired.

The first message I would give members as legislators is that they must protect the funding for education. It is essential that in the next budget funding for education is not reduced in any way. I would always make the case that it should be enhanced, but it must be protected because if schools lose another teacher, they will be at their wits' end. They are at their wits' end already in terms of providing the curriculum, not to mention implementing these profound approaches to societal problems such as well-being.

Regarding the other suggestion I would make, I was interested to hear Senator Moran mention funding for third level. That is something on which the committee should pick up. In the coming year, the Teaching Council, the regulatory body for the teaching profession, will introduce a framework for continuing professional development, CPD. What that means is that there will be mandatory upskilling for teachers on an annual basis. What constitutes upskilling will be worked out, but there will be a huge demand for the relevant courses to be made available to those in the profession. One of the problems currently is that apart from the SPHE support service, which does not get enough funding anyway, there is not much alternative training.

I suggest that members work to protect the budget for education, make sure the third level institutions get funding to allow them provide courses to upskill teachers, and be aware that online training is not sufficient. It must be backed up by face-to-face peer coaching and mentoring.

The other practical point raised by Deputy Butler, a fellow Trim citizen, was that board of management training is critical. The ASTI had discussions with the departmental team and it is putting together the guidelines. Regardless of the initiative we examine in schools, the Achilles heel of those initiatives is the board of management. The Department is quick to say we have autonomous boards of management which are ultimately accountable, but sometimes they are the people who know least about what is supposed to be happening and do not have the required skills. They have a lot of goodwill and community and other expertise, but they do not know the ins and outs of these matters. Speaking practically, the members should say that in the education budget the management bodies should be given money to provide training for boards of management. That is critical.

I am conscious that other people wish to speak, but I want to make a final point. There are positives. We have a big reform agenda in education. It is not easy for teachers. There are dimensions of it with which the ASTI in particular would have issues, but it is a reform agenda that is creating capacity for these type of changes. For example, we now have school self-evaluation, and the Department must be commended on taking a "slowly, slowly" approach rather than a stick-based accountability approach. Over time, school self-evaluation will develop schools' capacity for self-reflection in terms of asking how they are doing and whether they are doing something well, which was mentioned earlier in respect of the excellent school with which I am very familiar. It is about bringing all those people together and being able to do things in a coherent fashion. The school self-evaluation measures will support that.

We must be positive. It is the members' job as legislators to help bring this country back to some degree of decency of lifestyle and prosperity. It is important that we give people positive messages about what they can do, but the most important aspect is to protect the capacity of schools to do what they are doing and to ensure further cuts are not imposed. That is the fundamental message.

With regard to the question on teachers' mental health, I am always reluctant to talk about this because teachers are leaders and professionals whose job it is to care for children. However, there are incredible stresses, including financial, on teachers these days. A teacher to whom I spoke yesterday told me that while she would like to upskill and do a master's she cannot afford to do so because her husband is unemployed and one of her children is currently at college. These are the type of stresses about which I am sure members are hearing at their constituency offices. We are lucky in Ireland in that we have an incredibly dedicated teaching force at primary and secondary levels.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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I am conscious of time.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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Excuse me, I asked a direct question which was not answered.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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I will come back to the Senator when Ms McClorey has responded.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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There is no point asking questions if they are not going to be answered.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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We agreed earlier to finish this section at 3 p.m. There are people outside who have been waiting two hours to come in. I must be fair to everybody. I call Ms McClorey.

Ms Eleanor McClorey:

I was struck by the submission, Well-Being in Post-Primary Schools - Guidelines for Mental Health Promotion and Suicide Prevention. Well-being in post primary schools will be built on the well-being of children coming into that sector. One cannot separate out a child of 12 or 13 years moving to second level and expect his or her well-being to be any better than it is as they cross that threshold.

Much of the focus of Young Ballymun has been on developing two key strategies, one of which is an infant mental health strategy in partnership with the HSE and CAMHS for children 0-3 years and their parents. The notion of inviting health officials to address the committee is interesting. This issue is hugely relevant for children and families. As we all know, the intersection between health and education is artificial at family or child level. These services are all integrated around the child and the family. One might ask why the 0-3 years period is critical to secondary school. Parental attachment, attunement processes and the pre-language development, brain development and social and emotional competences of a young child provide the foundation for the development of every other effort of the child, his or her parents and the teachers and community organisations around them. This is intimately connected with the issues confronting secondary schools and the strategies required to be designed to respond to them.

On our implementation of the Incredible Years programme across primary schools in Ballymun, the independent evaluation is available on our website. There have been two key outcomes, namely, parental depression and stress levels reduced significantly from levels of clinical concern to within normal mental health boundaries and, for children, there were significantly increased pro-social behaviours and a marked decrease in hyperactivity combined with decreases in emotional and conduct problems. As those members who were formerly teachers will know all of these gains for children and parents are intrinsically linked to their educational attainment. Also important is parental well-being and the ability, confidence and competence to manage the secondary school development of one's child. As a parent who has completed that journey I know that building an effective relationship with one's child in adolescence is difficult. It is a time when naturally parent-child and young person-teacher communications can be strained and complex but is a normal pathway of development. The strength or otherwise of the bonds, attachments and communications that we developed with our children in their much earlier stages of development carries most of us through to adulthood.

The role of the parent in whole-school strategies is also important. The World Health Organization whole-school approach also underpinned our work with primary schools in Ballymun. Parents are a key element of a whole-school approach. Building the competence and capacities of teachers is also essential. Children's self-regulatory, self-expressive and self-awareness capacities are at the core of mental health and well-being. Parents can be so easily left out of this loop from birth onwards. It can all be about the child or other people. The parent is the primary promoter and protector of the child's welfare and mental health and development. Investing in parental awareness skills, knowledge and understanding is important.

I was struck by Deputy Butler's observation in regard to his role on the school management committee in certain situations. I identify with that. I am sure members will identify with parents being traumatised by their inability to respond to their children's needs.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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The next speaker is Deputy Jim Daly, followed by Senator Moloney. I ask members to be brief.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the delegation and thank them for their input to this debate. What in the delegates' experience are the biggest challenges for children in the care system accessing education? I refer in this regard not to the emotional challenges but to the practical difficulties such as enrolment in schools and so on? Have the delegates pitched the paper which they sent to the Department of Education and Skills on focus on the primary system? I understand that 40% of our teachers currently come from Hibernia College. Have the delegates considered putting some of their proposals to it. Given it is responsible for training 40% of our teachers I believe it would be open to meeting with them.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I wish only to reiterate my earlier question. Was any of the additional €34 million for mental health projects directed towards this project?

Ms Annette Clarke:

Yes.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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You did get some of that money.

Ms Róisín Webb:

Absolutely not. The Children's Mental Health Coalition received its funding from Amnesty International's mental health campaign. We are not funded by government in any way. Jigsaw may have received funding. I do not know if Headstrong received funding from the additional €34 million allocation. I can, however, say that the €34 million was not spent in that year. There was a net reduction in mental health spending in 2012. In reality, the ring-fencing of that budget has not happened on the ground.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I am speaking about the €34 million provided last year.

Ms Róisín Webb:

Yes. It was not spent on the ground. In reality there was a 6% cut overall in practical terms in what was spent. Most of the additional 150 posts, in terms of upskilling CAMHS teams, are not yet in place.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Perhaps the delegates would respond to Deputy Daly's questions on the teacher training colleges and children in care.

Ms Róisín Webb:

On teacher training, we have made recommendations to the Department around development of teacher training, particularly continuous professional development. In terms of children in care, the Children's Mental Health Coalition is currently conducting research on the mental health needs of children in the care and youth justice system, which is due to be published in May. I do not have specific expertise in terms of access to education for children in care.

On Senator Power's points in regard to implementation of the guidelines, it is crucial that mental health and well-being within schools is dealt with at senior level within the Department of Education and Skills. It is also crucial this is the case within the new directorate of mental health and that a national policy on inter agency work is developed. There must be national coherence even though things differ on the ground locally. Also, the liaison role in terms of implementing the guidelines would be a sensible use of scarce resources.

Just to add, in regard to relevant legislation, the Children First legislation being developed and also the legislation underpinning the new child and family support agency, it is critically important that access to education services and care is debated and that the work is underpinned by a legislative framework.

Mary Moran (Labour)
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I thank all the witnesses for appearing before the committee. Ms Róisín Webb talked about the care for the children, and I admire the work going on in Jigsaw, in Meath, but it goes back to Deputy Butler's point. In terms of mental health, if the teacher is involved in a dreadful situation that arises, there are no supports. As mentioned, sometimes they do not have the money to pay €100 for a psychologist and they may feel that the child is being looked after, the school has its policy, but what supports are in place for the teacher?

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Who wants to take that question? I call Deputy Butler but he must be very brief.

Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for attending today. I had not intended saying what I said but I felt very passionate about it as it came from personal experience.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Okay.

Ms Róisín Webb:

That liaison office would be a huge support to teachers as well because in terms of that whole-school approach, it is the responsibility of the schools to figure out all of those referral processes and implement that without having access to the support they need. That would be crucial for teachers as well as the students.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for attending. This is an issue we will have to come back to. From a school perspective, the various agencies they must deal with and the responsibilities that come under Departments, be it Health, Education and Skills, Children and Youth Affairs or whatever, is frustrating. We will send on the presentations to the Minister for Education and Skills but we will ask Department of Health officials to appear before the committee to give us more insight into how we can overcome the difficulties. I thank the witnesses for their excellent presentations. I am sorry the time was short but we got a huge amount from the presentations.

We will suspend briefly while the next witnesses come in. I ask members to remain if they possibly can do so because those making the next presentation have been waiting two hours.