John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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They have, but my point is that very few cases end up going to court. I go back to the psychology involved and the psyche of an individual going down the road at the very beginning and taking one of these application forms. The reality is that many of them know that the chances of them being fined and prosecuted in this country are very low, and that is borne out by the figures. I am making the point that the deterrent is not there. The Comptroller and Auditor General and the Department are carrying out reviews, but the deterrent is greater in people's minds in other jurisdictions when they engage in fraud. It is borne out by the figures.

I will go back to Revenue, which has a reputation. Compliance levels in tax collection in this country are very high. It is due to the fact that Revenue is, unlike the Department, very willing to use very tough enforcement measures. When I compare the Department of Social Protection to the reputation of Revenue in people's minds, it is different, based on my experience as a Deputy. People with whom I deal would consider that the penalties and chance of being prosecuted and fined are quite slim given that they would think twice about going down that road with Revenue. We can put all the checks, reviews and surveys in place after the fact but we need to do far more work when it comes to the initial step, which is the deterrent in the first place. We certainly need to do more than the warning at the end of every application.