John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The first item is the minutes of meetings of 6 and 7 February 2013. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. The next item is correspondence from Accounting Officers and Ministers. No. 3A.1 is correspondence, dated 4 February 2013, from Mr. Shaun Quinn, chief executive, Fáilte Ireland, re Suffolk Street information office, to be noted and published. No. 3A.2 is correspondence, dated 7 February 2013, from Mr. Dermot Nolan, chairperson, Commission for Energy Regulation, re providing information requested at the meeting of 17 January 2013, to be noted and published. Correspondence, dated 7 February 2013, from Mr. Cathal Guiomard, Commissioner for Aviation Regulation, re providing information requested at the meeting of 17 January 2013, is to be noted and published.

Derek Nolan (Galway West, Labour)
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I have a question on that correspondence. The commissioner was asked to provide updated key performance indicators for 2012 but he only had 2011. He has provided them but they are not very good. It is 77% for completed investigations or 46% in travel trade licensing. Can we ask him to explain why his key performance indicators do not hit 100% in each case?

Clerk to the Committee:

All right.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Deputy saying that the information is not complete?

Derek Nolan (Galway West, Labour)
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No, the information is complete.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is it the performance?

Derek Nolan (Galway West, Labour)
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The wider performance is not 100%.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I will raise that question with him.

Clerk to the Committee:

Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No. 3A.4 is correspondence, dated 8 February 2013, from Mr. Gerry Murphy, chief executive officer, National Transport Authority, re providing information requested at our meeting of 24 January 2013, to be noted and published. Correspondence, dated 8 February 2013, from Ms Geraldine Tallon, secretary general, Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, re providing information requested at the meeting of 6 December 2012, is to be noted and published. Correspondence, dated 11 February 2013, from Mr. Robert Watt, secretary general, Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, re providing information requested at our meeting of 13 December 2012, is to be noted and published.

Correspondence, dated 12 February 2013 from Ms Geraldine Tallon, secretary general, Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, re possible merger of the local government audit service and the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, is to be noted and published. We will revisit the matter in the context of our meeting with the auditors from local government. We will get information for the Members on the background for the new proposal regarding the audit service.

No. 3A.8 is correspondence, received 12 February 2013, from the Waterford Institute of Technology, which was marked strictly confidential, forwarding a Deloitte report in respect of non-pay expenditure incurred in the office of the former president of Waterford Institute of Technology, to be noted. As previously agreed by the committee, we will await the report of the special inspector before returning to the issue. I remind Members that the correspondence was given to the committee on the basis that it will remain confidential. Is there any idea when we will have the report from Mr. Quigley or from the Department of Education?

Clerk to the Committee:

It is expected by Easter.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will the report be sent directly to the Minister? Will it be available to us then or do we have to wait three months?

Clerk to the Committee:

No, it has nothing to do with the three months. It is a matter for the Minister. I shall ask for the report to be forwarded to us so that we can conclude our business.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The Accounting Officer will be in over the next couple of weeks. The committee can probably get an update.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No. 3A.9 is correspondence, dated 8 February 2013, from Mr. Gerry Murphy, chief executive of the National Transport Authority, providing further information requested at the meeting of 24 January 2013, to be noted and published. No. 3A.10 is correspondence, dated 14 February 2013, from Mr. Tom O'Mahony, Secretary General at the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, providing information requested at the meeting of 7 February 2013, to be noted and published. The Accounting Officer has responded promptly to the requests of the committee and I commend him on the information he has provided, as it is needed to examine school transport and free travel, which we will take up at forthcoming meetings. We mentioned that we would meet with the Secretary General again about some of the expenditure that goes to CIE, but in respect of that amount only and not necessarily the overall accounts, because that is a matter for that company. However, we will get the opportunity to examine the allocation to CIE, and that is what we were discussing. That needs to be clarified for the Secretary General. No. 3A.11 is correspondence dated 15 February 2013 from Mr. Frank Ryan, chief executive of Enterprise Ireland, providing information requested at the meeting of 31 January 2013, to be noted and published.

No. 3B. is individual correspondence. No. 3B.1 is correspondence, dated 6 February 2013, from Mr. Tom O'Mahony, Secretary General of the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, forwarding a note from CIE regarding the north Kerry railway. This is to be noted and a copy is to be forwarded to Mr. Liam O’Mahony, cathaoirleach, Great Southern Trail. No. 3B.2 is correspondence, dated 6 February 2013, from Mr. Ray Mitchell, parliamentary and regulatory affairs division, Health Service Executive, providing information previously requested regarding disability services. This is to be noted and a copy is to be forwarded to Mrs. Mary Farrell, the original complainant. No. 3B.3 is correspondence, dated 6 February 2013, from Mr. Tony Walsh, private secretary to the chairman, Office of the Revenue Commissioners, providing information previously requested regarding the examination of multinational corporations. This is to be noted and a copy is to be forwarded to Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan. No. 3B.4 is correspondence, dated 7 February 2013, from Mr. John Moran, Secretary General, Department of Finance, providing information previously requested regarding the examination of multinational corporations. This is again to be noted and a copy is to be forwarded to Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan.

No. 3B.5 is correspondence, dated 12 February 2013, from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General, Department of Education and Skills, providing information previously requested regarding the allocation of apprenticeship training in institutes of technology and colleges of further education. This is to be noted and a copy is to be forwarded to Mr. Pat Brady, the original complainant. No. 3B.6 is correspondence, dated 7 February 2013, from Mr. Daniel O'Mahony re the home tuition scheme, to be noted. Mr. O'Mahony is raising policy matters relating to the education of children with autism, which falls outside the remit of the Committee of Public Accounts. On the issue of the €70 million spent on a pilot project, we will ask the Accounting Officer for a note on the pilot project. We had referred previous correspondence to the Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection and while there was a delay in doing so this matter has now been addressed.

No. 3B.7 is correspondence, dated 7 February 2013, from Mr. John Fallon re the proposed lease of property on Abbey Street, Ballina. This is to be noted and forwarded to the Department of Education and Skills for a note on the matter. No. 3B.8 is correspondence, dated 15 February 2013, from Mr. Denis Griffin, Department of Justice and Equality, providing a note previously requested by the committee on the Property Services Regulatory Authority. This is to be noted and a copy is to be forwarded to the original complainant. No. 3B.9 is correspondence, dated 23 January 2013, from Ms Marie Therese O’Sullivan re The Warrens wet and dry homeless hostel, Wicklow town. This is to be noted and forwarded to the HSE for a note on the matter. No. 3B.10 is correspondence, dated 24 January 2013, from Mr. Michael O’Leary, chief executive of Ryanair, re the appearance of the Commission for Aviation Regulation at the committee meeting of 17 January 2013. This is to be noted and I will ask the clerk to check back on the transcript and to follow up as appropriate with the aviation regulator.

No. 3B.11 is correspondence, dated 25 January 2013, from Mr. Gerry Mullins, chief executive, Coach Tourism and Transport Council of Ireland, re the school transport scheme. This is to be noted. We have not finished examining the issue of the school transport scheme as we will have to follow up on issues with the Department of Education and Skills next week. The complainant is to be informed of this and also given a copy of Mr. O'Mahony's letter which was already considered today by the committee. No. 3B.12 is correspondence, dated 29 January 2013, from Mr. Michael Brosnan, North Circular Road, Dublin 7, to be noted. Members will recall that I raised this specific case at our last public meeting because information obtained under the Freedom of Information Act had not been made available to Mr. Farrell in his legal pursuit of his rights against the Department. The case dates back to 1977. It may well be that this case should now be referred to an independent review, but we will ask the Department for a further note on the issues raised in this correspondence. No. 3B.13 is correspondence, dated 4 February 2013, from Deputy Niall Collins re the expansion of bicycle hire scheme. This is to be noted and forwarded to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport for a note on the matter raised.

No. 3C is documents relating to today’s committee meeting. Deputy McDonald wished to raise an issue.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Members might recall that when Ms Geraldine Tallon appeared before the committee I raised the issue of a public private partnership, PPP, relating to a water project in Cork. In the course of that discussion it emerged that, on balance, the analysis of the awarding of that contract showed that it would have been more effective for it not to have gone the PPP route. I asked for some background clarification as to why that decision was taken. We were given a commitment that we would be given some background detail on that project but we still have not received it.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

In No. 3A.5 there is an appendix which gives some additional detail relating to it. It is part 6 of the correspondence from the Secretary General.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The clerk will liaise with you after the meeting, Deputy, to see if the information referred to by Mr. McCarthy is sufficient to answer the questions you raised. That might be the best way to deal with it.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you, Chairman.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Nos. 3C.1 and 3C.2 are correspondence from the Office of the Revenue Commissioners. One is a briefing paper and the other is the opening statement. Both are to be noted and published.

Reports and financial statements are listed from 4.1 to 4.12. The only question I would raise relates to 4.3, 4.6, 4.7 and 4.8, because they date back to 2009 and 2010. Why are they not up to date?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The Further Education and Training Awards Council, FETAC, accounts for 2010 were delayed. We had questions about expenditure in respect of the development of a web-based information technology, IT, system which, I understand, was to record awards within the framework managed by FETAC. We sought explanations and there were delays in getting satisfactory explanations relating to that matter. Ultimately, we were satisfied that the contract management had been satisfactory, but the result was that we could not sign off on the account until we received those explanations. We will be examining the project further to see if it delivered what was expected. FETAC has since been integrated into the Quality and Qualifications Ireland organisation.

With regard to the National College of Art and Design, these two audits were difficult to bring to a conclusion because of delays in the production of the financial statements. There were also gaps in the preparedness of the client for the audit, and there were long delays in obtaining answers to audit queries. We have completed the 2009 and 2010 audits. Obviously financial statements for 2011 are not yet ready, which represents a delay of nearly two years. We propose to issue an audit query in respect of this and we might report on governance matters and accounts production.

As regards University College Cork, UCC, there was a delay. My predecessor reported previously on issues around the transfer of pension liabilities from the pension funds of the universities to the national pension fund. The delay by UCC in completing its accounts and by the governing body in signing off on them was related to the way in which the liabilities for pensions should be presented; they sought legal opinion on the matter. The accounts for 2010 were only signed off by the governing authority in September 2012, and were signed off by me in December 2012. The 2011 accounts were signed off in December 2012 by both the governing authority and me.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I mentioned last week that we might not have received some replies from the Accounting Officers regarding issues raised. In fact, I might have wronged the Accounting Officers because, when we checked, some of the issues had been addressed. There are some outstanding matters but, in the main, we have received the replies to date.

The work programme is now on the screen. Does Deputy Simon Harris want to raise a matter?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I recently submitted a raft of parliamentary questions and correspondence with State agencies about the amount of money various State agencies and local authorities have on deposit. I estimate there could be up to €3 billion on deposit in hundreds of accounts throughout the country. These are public accounts and I will not read all of the figures into the record but, for example, the National Transport Authority has almost €19 million on deposit, the Railway Procurement Agency has €45.8 million, Bord Iascaigh Mhara has €3 million and Bord Bia has €5.2 million on deposit. A very significant amount of money is gifted to the State agencies by these Houses when we pass budgets, yet there does not seem to be a consistent policy on treasury management across State agencies. In local authorities, which do not directly fall under our remit, the situation is more worrying. The latest figures available for deposits date to the last day of 2010. Local authorities do not have more up-to-date information provided to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government.

This is not to be critical of State agencies for having deposits. There may be good reason that they should and some may use them for wages and the like. However, there is a great inconsistency in the level of deposits held by agencies carrying out similar tasks. The does not seem to be a treasury management structure and there does not seem to be national guidelines on interest rates, the action people should take and the ratio of deposits that is appropriate. The Committee of Public Accounts should correspond with Accounting Officers and ask each of them to provide us with information on the level of deposits in each State agency that falls within their remit. When we look at the information, we should then consider interacting with the NTMA. This could amount to €3 billion in hundreds of accounts with no plan, no strategy and with different interest rates. It is being carried out on an ad hoc basis with each agency making individual decisions. It is a substantial sum of money and it will surprise people when they look into the detail of it. I propose asking each Accounting Officer to account for the State agencies and the levels of deposits within their remit.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Should we write to each Accounting Officer?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Yes, and following that we can compile information.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to comment on it.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Deputies may recall a report published last year on third level institutions. One of the points we raised was the figure of €750 million in balances. Different organisations have different requirements for working capital in order to run their business. I suggest getting a view from the Department of Finance, which is a more efficient way of framing questions for other Accounting Officers. The Department has an interest in ensuring balances are kept within the Exchequer. This would be a quicker way of getting an overview rather than trying to build it up from individual Accounting Officers.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Harris wants to establish whether, apart from the figures he has, other Accounting Officers have not been asked to contribute to the analysis.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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When I asked these parliamentary questions, some Ministers provided all the information on the record while others asked agencies to respond to me. To date, a number of agencies with substantial budgets, notably the HSE, have failed to respond with figures.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Harris is not surprised by that.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I am not surprised by that. I have figures in excess of €2 billion, with a number of agencies with large budgets still missing. At a practical level, local authorities have overdraft facilities and I know the overdraft facility in my county is very large. People are paying a lot of money to avail of the facility and, at the same time, they may have extremely large deposits.

We also have town councils, which will be abolished for better or for worse under Government reform plans next June, with €17 million on deposit. They have consistently had millions on deposit over the past number of years. If the money is not spent by the town councils, where will it go? This is a broader question but we have very little data. The first thing I would like to do is get the data. I have spoken to a number of State agencies and there are many good reasons why they have money on deposit. I raise this not to be critical of them for holding deposits but to be critical of the lack of national co-ordination. A proactive State agency could seek very good interest rates while another is leaving the money in the bank for years. That is happening also.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We should find out about the other agencies, outside of the ones who have reported, and write to them. We can follow the recommendation of the Comptroller and Auditor General and write to the Department of Finance. We might get a broader picture. I ask Deputy Harris to liaise with the clerk to the committee to find out the information we have so that we can follow up and fill in the gaps before asking the Department of Finance for information. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Is the work programme agreed? Agreed. Under any other business, can we agree the agenda for Thursday, 28 February at 10 a.m., when we will meet the Department of Education and Skills? The agenda for the meeting will consist of the 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts, Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments Under Public Private Partnerships, Chapter 18: Salary Overpayments to Teachers, and Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills. Is that agreed? Agreed.