Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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In the second part of our public session we will discuss a report, The Rural Challenge: Empowering Rural Communities to Achieve Growth and Sustainability. I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, who is accompanied by Ms Deirdre Moloney, assistant principal, EU and national rural development, Ms Deirdre Kelly, administrative officer, EU and national rural development, and Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan, assistant principal, planning and housing policy. As the visitors are well accustomed, having attended various committees on many occasions, we will not go through the note on privilege. It is good to have them here today.

I invite the Minister to make a presentation to the committee on The Rural Challenge: Empowering Rural Communities to Achieve Growth and Sustainability.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I hope I will not upset the rules of privilege in any way. I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to talk about the issues facing rural Ireland now and in the future. Community issues must be central for those of us engaged in serving the public. The Department is committed to doing what is best for all our communities. I acknowledge the time and effort the authors have put into their report, The Rural Challenge. A key principle underlying my Department's activities is to enable communities to identify and address social and economic needs and problems in their own areas and it is always positive to see a community taking a proactive approach in this regard, using the bottom-up approach at its best. I also subscribe to the principle of assisting communities to become independent rather than totally dependent.

There are a number of recommendations in this report in regard to establishing a rural forum, thereby bringing shared interests together to develop policies and engage with communities. The establishment of the commission for the economic development of rural areas, or CEDRA, which I launched last December along with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, has begun this process in earnest. At my request, Mr. Pat Spillane has agreed to be chairman and his enthusiasm and belief in empowering rural areas to help themselves is driving the work of the commission. This Government remains committed to getting people back into employment and creating vibrant communities for our citizens to live in. Over the coming nine months CEDRA will build on the action plan for jobs and the initiatives I announced in the action programme for effective local government, Putting People First, which empowers local government to drive economic development and create jobs at local level.

I established the commission on rural development to look at the differential degree of economic development and the variable impacts of the economic downturn between urban and rural areas. This will be examined in detail by the commission in order to ensure that appropriate measures are identified to inform the development of strategies that will support rural Ireland into the future. The commission is particularly relevant now given that levels of unemployment have increased more in rural areas, particularly in small towns, since the economic crisis began.

During the next couple of months, the commission will undertake an extensive public consultation on the future economic potential of rural Ireland and how best to channel funding and resources between 2013 and 2025. In this regard, an extensive schedule of meetings, including 15 public and 24 stakeholder meetings with agri and community representatives and a further 20 meetings with business and union representatives, making a total of 59 public meetings, will take place throughout Ireland. I will provide the committee secretariat with the details of those meetings.

It is hoped people in rural areas will fully participate in the process by making submissions and attending their local public meeting as there is a central role for the voice of rural citizens in shaping and development of our future policies. The Government needs to integrate the views of rural dwellers in the policy-making process. I have always said that once afforded the opportunity, rural people will engage and ensure their opinions shape the final report which will, in turn, inform their development pathways going forward.

The commission will examine the non-farming aspects of economic development in rural Ireland. This will inform future policy making to support such development. I have no doubt that, as referred to in the report recommendations, the development of the agritourism sector will come through as a key element. The ongoing development of the agritourism sector is of strategic importance for Ireland given its potential to leverage job creation and improve Exchequer revenue from foreign and domestic tourism. We are all aware of the great success of the Great Western Greenway, a 42 km cycling and walking trail from Westport to Achill. The greenway contributes to a projected local economic impact of approximately €6.3 million, consisting of almost €2.8 million in spend by overseas visitors and more than €3.5 million in spend by domestic visitors. These are the type of sustainable long-term projects at which we should be looking.

The Leader accesses of the rural development programme delivered by my Department is designed to directly address many of the challenges facing rural communities, including the need to increase economic activity and stimulate job creation. As the funding is delivered using the so-called bottom-up approach, citizens are directly involved and have a say in their development choices. This year, €105 million has been allocated to Leader. This support has the capacity not only to facilitate access to sustainable employment opportunities in rural areas but also to help support sustainable rural communities and maintain healthy rural economies for business creation and development into the future.

I have a very challenging implementation programme ahead in terms of drawing up and enacting legislation to give effect to the range of reform measures in local government. I refer in particular to the action programme for local government reform and the synergies with planning and the relevant conclusions and recommendations of the rural channels report. The report is silent on the key planning frameworks of regional planning guidelines which are to transition to regional and spatial economic strategies under the reform programme. The focus on reform of regional local government structures under the action programme for local government reform has the overall emphasis on strengthening, modernising and streamlining, which will also have a positive impact on the planning function of regional local government.

I note also the importance placed by the study on improving links between local communities and local government. A key focus of the local government reform is to make local authorities more responsible and answerable to the needs of citizens and communities. The overall aim is to reinforce the role and responsibility of local government as the primary vehicle for economic, social and community development locally. I want it to continue to deliver high quality services to our citizens and communities and to see this done in the most effective and efficient way possible, with a targeting of resources to locally identified priorities. I want to ensure that the local development approach continues to be part of how we respond to challenges. It is important that we build upon and strengthen the links between local government and local development at local level. Better overall outcomes in terms of job creation and economic development can be achieved through greater collaboration between local authorities and other local development bodies, together with the representatives of local business interests and the local communities.

I am pursuing greater co-ordination of all the different Departments, agencies and funding streams nationally and locally as part of a stronger role for the local authorities and community leadership. What is important at the end of the day is the impact of our investments on communities. This is not about structures, rather it is about the harnessing and streamlining of the efforts needed to sustain the economic and social dividend that comes from these investments.

I am also looking at the outcome of the recent summit of the European Council on the mutli-financial framework. There are real positives for Ireland in this, in particular a special allocation of €100 million for the BMW region. We have also secured an additional €100 million for Ireland on top of our rural development share. In addition, throughout the negotiations the Irish team stressed the need to tackle youth unemployment. Ireland will share the €6 billion being made available for countries with levels of in excess of 25%. The next task for Ireland's Presidency is getting the European Parliament's consent to this package. I am confident this can be secured. I believe that local communities have a key role to play in developing inclusive sustainable communities where local enterprise initiatives can thrive and develop into the future. The Government is actively working to ensure that our rural communities grow and are sustainable and vibrant places in which to live and work.

I would like now to draw the attention of the committee to an issue, which is part of the local government reform measures and might be of particular concern to it, namely, the development of the local employment offices. We are working with Enterprise Ireland and local government on the manner in which this will be rolled out at community level. It is hoped to provide a one-stop-shop through which people with ideas can be mentored, monitored and supported in every way possible. I am happy to respond to any questions which members may have.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his presentation on the two important topics of rural channels and the local employment offices. We had a good discussion on the latter topic last week with the Minister, Deputy Bruton. I have no doubt members will have further questions for the Minister today.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister and his officials and compliment them on their work to date, in particular on the Leader programme and its fantastic collection of projects throughout the country.

The Minister referred to the issues being faced by small towns in particular. Small towns have borne a huge brunt of the economic downturn. Does the Minister have in mind any specific initiatives to address this issue? He might also say what ideas have been proposed at the first batch of CEDRA meetings. I am interested in particular in a project in the Minister's constituency which is being run by the Kilkenny Leader company and relates to a food town.

On local government reform and the Minister's wish to ensure local government remains connected to local communities, how does he propose to ensure this link remains given the proposed substantial reduction in the number of elected councillors in rural areas in particular? How does he propose to ensure that wider electoral areas, and towns and villages on the periphery of these areas, will be at the heart of local government and will continue to have a say in the new set up?

On Leader going forward and the bottom-up approach, which has been the foundation of its approach, given that many of the local development companies are to come within the remit of the local authorities, how does the Minister intend to ring-fence that bottom-up approach to ensure it is not sucked into the local authority and lost within? The Minister mentioned local employment offices. The concern in this regard is how, given the enterprise function is being brought within the remit of local authorities, the Department proposes to ensure that they protect the enterprise ethos of the county enterprise boards and serve the enterprise client given they are not renowned as enterprise friendly organisations? The concern from all of the feedback from the various groups is that this will be lost.

On the national spatial strategy, will it be reviewed in terms of CEDRA and the overall local government review? Does the Minister propose to tweak it to try to make it rural proof? While we are developing a lot of regional centres throughout the country, I suspect this will be at the cost of smaller centres. Has the Department looked at this specific issue?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Calleary for his questions. We are looking at urban settlements. The gateway and hub concepts under the last national spatial strategy have not worked. While it was nice for an area to have a title, there were no resources available to it owing to the subsequent downturn. We are reviewing the national spatial strategy. A scoping document is currently being drawn up, which ultimately will be put out for consultation and review. It will be approximately one year or so before conclusions in this regard are reached. A large body of work is being undertaken, which will take account of the issues raised by the Deputy.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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One of the downsides of the national spatial strategy is that towns defined as hubs are excluded from accessing Leader funding. Does the Minister propose to engage around that issue?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Yes. Everything is up for review in terms of title and designation. Many designations have taken place but nothing has happened. I do not think there is much to be gained from having a title if nothing happens. As mentioned by Deputy Calleary, under the current national spatial strategy projects in hub towns or gateway areas are prohibited from accessing funding under the rural development programme.

The Deputy mentioned the food competition in Kilkenny, which is for projects of €250,000 or more. This was approved last week. The purpose of the project is to engage with communities in devising a number of projects. It has a competitive edge to it, which one would expect in Kilkenny.

Small towns can make an application to the rural development programme for business creation and development. That is not ignoring anywhere else.

We are trying to enshrine the municipal concept in local government reform, and that begins with the premise that it will be built around a small town or cluster of towns. The town, with its hinterland, will be a focal point of a development programme. Whatever electoral or municipal areas are drawn up by the boundary commission, the terms of reference will seek to build hinterlands around towns. For example, I am sure Ballina would be the focal point of a wider hinterland in whatever municipal district is formed, and the same will apply to Castlebar or Westport. Any of the major towns which have had representation through a town council or municipal development will become a focal point.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Minister ensure that?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I cannot dictate to the population of the Ballina municipal area who they should elect. If there are between six and ten seats in the electoral area, I am sure the people where there is greatest population will ensure they have good representation. Those outside the area will have an equal opportunity to vote for people, irrespective of whether they are from urban or rural areas. There is no quota for an area outside a particular municipal area.

I want to align the community sector with local government, as there is too much duplication and administrative overlap. I want to maintain front-line services and they will get the bulk of money in preference to administrative structures. The socioeconomic committees have been put in place in the local government sector and people in the community sector will have representation and be part of the decision-making process with local elected members. The details have not yet been finalised but we are engaged with the community sector in order to conclude the matter. I hope that will happen in the next few weeks.

We have a chequered history with some of the Leader areas, including that of the Deputy, and there have been difficulties in resolving some outstanding issues and irregularities. Meitheal Forbartha na Gaeltachta had to be liquidated and there was a difficulty in getting files subsequently. That is not acceptable practice in terms of accountability. We also ran into some difficulties with the European Commission with regard to those issues of accountability, and we are working through them with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to ensure the rural development programme did not collapse. It has motivated me even more in developing new administrative structures.

Protecting the client base on local enterprise offices, LEOs, is important and I expect the city and county enterprise boards would be a horizontal move into local government, with local government's contributing to development through planning and advice going through a local authority to assist people in setting up a new business. That would be in one location in local government. It is amazing to see the number of difficulties arising in State agencies when they feel something is slipping away and into local government, and I did not believe there would be such hassle about devolution of responsibility. It is not easily done. The social partners are getting in on the action as well. Although there is good representation at a national level with Enterprise Ireland, there is no wish to let go of the issues.

I am disappointed by some of the representative bodies at national level, such as the Small Firms Association and the Irish Small and Medium Enterprises Association, because of the negative approach they have taken to local government. If local government is not given more power and responsibility, it will be painted as an entity that is unable to deliver. I am trying to ensure it has more power and responsibility, along with funding possibilities. At a local level, people should be able to go to an office and get a full suite of advice and necessary support. That is only available now in a very disjointed way. Whether people are on enterprise boards or community development in local government, everything should be in one place and people should have access to all that information.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Rural development is very important and as the Minister knows, rural areas have probably suffered more from the downturn than many of the urban areas. The top ten counties in terms of unemployment are rural, with Donegal having the highest rate at approximately 26% unemployed. With the north west, one of the major challenges is access to transport, as it does not have a rail link. The A5 was a good way of getting transport to the rural north-west region, and we are disappointed that some funds for it have been cut.

We should get IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland to promote more rural areas. Údarás na Gaeltachta does not come under the Minister's remit but it had a net loss of jobs in comparison with IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland, which showed a net gain of jobs last year. The spatial plan is very important, and it goes hand in hand with the state aid issue discussed just before the Minister came in. The spatial plan would probably help the state aid initiative.

The Minister mentioned some of the difficulties with the local enterprise offices, and this are major problems. There is approximately 20 years of experience in some of the county enterprise boards and there is a danger that this will be dissolved within the new LEOs. Will the Minister speak to what savings are expected with the development of LEOs and what additionality is assumed?

Some county enterprise boards feel local authorities will be downsized. The Minister mentioned in the Seanad that 500 staff would be downsized in local authorities. I am told that some county enterprise boards will lose staff, with some boards going from five members to three members. How are the sub-groups within the implementation working groups getting along? My understanding is that they have ceased deliberations and have not come to an agreement. That may highlight some of the difficulties with regard to the development of the new LEOs. There are also a couple of questions relating to human resources and the secondment of staff into the new LEOs. Will that place a new pension cost on local authorities? The Minister knows I do not seek to be controversial. If an entrepreneur has not paid a property or water tax or any service charges, will he or she be able to get a service from the new LEOs?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I will take the last question first. I always subscribe to the view that if people expect a service, they must have a tax clearance certificate for any goods and services supplied. That is the way it will be. I do not expect 72% of the people who pay charges will expect the other 28% to be carried by them. I hope the Deputy supports me in that, as his party is doing in Northern Ireland.

The employees of the county enterprise boards will be employees of Enterprise Ireland and seconded to authorities at local levels. The question of pension rights and pay and conditions does not arise. I am surprised the Deputy is not as well informed as he should be with regard to the deliberations on the working groups having ceased. That is not the case and I got a full report this morning. The working groups continue to work through the issues and are very close to agreement. On the local government side we must decide what staff to place in the new local employment offices, and that is now part and parcel of the discussions. No staff is being lost in any sense from county enterprise boards or local government in concentrating what we want to do in supplying good quality advice and support to people who wish to start at local level. I assure the Deputy that I am keen to ensure that is the case.

I note the Deputy's issues of access to the north west. The Border, midlands and west, BMW, region has always received some preferential treatment over and above any other part of the world with rural development measures, and that will continue to be the case in any new programme to emerge in 2014 and beyond.

I would draw the committee's attention to the Connect Ireland initiative with which I was involved through my local government remit. An entrepreneur, Mr. Terry Clune of Taxback, put up his own money for this. I am sure Senator Quinn is familiar with him. Mr. Clune, who is based in Kilkenny, decided on a national basis that he was going to make his contribution towards bringing back some enterprise - in rural areas, in particular - for the economic development of Ireland. The projects that have been announced and those in the pipeline are concentrated on areas that would be well below the radar of IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland in terms of their remit concerning foreign direct investment.

Many of the proposals that are currently emerging can be tailored for rural locations where IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland's regional development programme may not always succeed in attracting major foreign direct investment. I can see a lot of value in this initiative. It would be useful for the committee to invite in Connect Ireland's representatives to see what progress they have made, as well as what future plans they have for dealing with initiatives to market places such as Donegal, Galway or Mayo. Some rural areas are largely ignored by IDA Ireland and other statutory bodies.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I have two questions for clarification purposes. When the CEBs mutate into an LEO, will they lose any of their staff complement?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Not unless Enterprise Ireland wants to cut its staff, but we have no such plans. I have heard nothing to suggest that would be the case.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Will funding remain the same in that regard?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Enterprise Ireland will have the budget, policy and staff. They will be seconded into local government for the purpose of delivering the suite of services they are now offering.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I do not mean to labour this point, but will the total funding resource allocation change, even in its new form through Enterprise Ireland?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Not unless the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation has particular problems with his budget. I cannot second guess what his budgetary issues are, but I have no such plans whatsoever. It is not my direct role to decide the budget concerning what will happen on the LEOs. I am facilitating the space.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister and his officials to the committee. I acknowledge the level of reform the Minister has initiated across a range of sectors, much of which is positive. Having read the rural challenge group's report, I realise it is difficult to consider rural areas in isolation from urban ones because there is a huge interconnection between both. My own constituency of Galway West includes Galway city, Connemara to the west and east Galway on the other side. There is a major interconnection between these areas, with many people travelling from rural areas to work in Galway city. During the Celtic tiger years, there were vibrant rural communities but that is not to say that there was local employment in those areas. There was employment in cities, however, and movement of labour, but that has obviously changed now so it is very difficult. I welcome many of the initiatives and comments in the report, but we must accept that there is a big connection between rural and urban areas.

Agritourism is mentioned widely in the report and it was referred to by the Minister also. I accept the work that has been done concerning Mayo. The Minister will be aware of the ongoing work on the Connemara greenway, which has gone through the An Bord Pleanála hearing. We are awaiting a decision on that and hopefully it will be positive. That initiative will help places like Clifden and others, as will a strong outcome for the Common Agricultural Policy. Hopefully the Minister will come up with an agreeable structure for distributing those CAP moneys.

The Minister will be aware of the concern in some rural areas regarding changes to Leader programme structures. I have already brought to the Minister's attention the Leader company in Connemara, which is called Forum Connemara. It has a long history going back to 1989. That company is very concerned about the changes because it is in a peripheral location which is one hour and ten minutes from Galway city. The company feels therefore that the structural changes would lead to a certain amount of isolation, notwithstanding the Minister's support for a bottom-up approach in any new structures.

How will the Minister address that company's concerns that any new structures would lead to more peripherality for a place like Letterfrack? In some isolated, peripheral rural locations, State jobs - including ones provided through the Leader programme - are hugely important to the local economy. Seven, ten or 12 jobs in a small community like that can have a major impact. Where those services are being drawn into Galway city, albeit in county buildings, the local community is concerned.

I appreciate the Minister has pointed out that, despite the administrative burden, including cheque writing, that will be taken over, there will still be a bottom-up approach. Nonetheless, there is still some concern that once Galway city and the county council take control, it will lead to a reduction in the role of Forum Connemara.

Some time ago, I attended a crafts show in the RDS. We have a vibrant craft sector whose representatives have attended this committee before. There is wonderful work going on in small arts and crafts companies in rural areas. They should be supported into the future. I would be grateful if the Minister would deal with those points.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I can understand how any Leader group or community organisation would be concerned about its future because there are a number of well-paid people in such organisations. In Galway, for example, Comhairle Ceantar na nOileán Teo. has five staff, and the CEO is paid €53,000. The CEO of Forum Connemara is paid €84,000. The total number of staff is 17, of which the rural development programme has two full-time staff. There are also the Galway City Partnership and the Galway Rural Development Company. All of them are well paid.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Some of them would be at the lower end of the scale, such as Comhairle Ceantar na nOileán Teo.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It could be at the lower end, but it has a low budget. In proportion to their budget, one can see that the level of administrative costs associated with these particular entities is unacceptable. I want to protect the delivery of front-line services to these particular areas, but I will certainly not countenance setting up a structure that will gobble up an enormous amount of money in administrative costs. That is what is happening at the moment.

From the outcome of the Common Agricultural Policy talks, the Leader funds will be considerably less - probably less than half what we had in the last round. On the last occasion, we were able to give a 5% national top-up above the 5% that came through the rural development programme. Therefore, we do not have the luxury of all the structures that we have become accustomed to under social partnership in the good days. We must thus rationalise structures and see how we can use other existing structures, such as local government, to pay for heating, light and offices, as well as developing a one-stop-shop approach towards the economic and community development of those areas. It should be about what we are going to do for the people of the area, rather than long-established structures that are protecting people in jobs that are too highly paid.

I would point out that Forum Connemara was established in 2009. I do not know whether it should have been established then but it was.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It was there as a local voluntary group since 1989.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I know that.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It has a long history and was operated through Galway Rural Development at the same time.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I know the Minister of the day was very anxious that he would have another structure. He certainly had four structures in his own areas, so fair play to him.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We have the advantage of a vibrant Gaeltacht and offshore islands.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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You have Údarás na Gaeltachta as well.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I am going to take all the answers first and then bring Deputy Kyne back in.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I do not know how many other structures are needed to deliver a programme in Connemara.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We do not need any extra. It is just a question of protecting the ones we have.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Given the finances we are likely to have, I do not think that is a luxury we can afford. I agree with the Deputy, however, that a strong urban centre is essential for stronger rural areas. There is a magnet in Galway city, but the challenge is to get people beyond that. That is where the programmes are needed. There have been a lot of rural development programmes in the Deputy's area and there would want to be, considering the number of structures there, in order to ensure that the people of the area are getting that.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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They are all very much supported by the local community. It is all very positive.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Deputy have any other questions?

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The groups that have benefited are hugely impressed with the hands-on approach of these companies, irrespective of the lower than average pay the chief executive officer has achieved compared with some of the other companies in other areas.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should ask a question.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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They have a genuine concern that were Galway County Council - which as a former member I respect - to get its hands on this money, it would not flow out to the peripheral areas.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Kyne should not be in any way taken in by some of the propaganda that has been put about. These moneys, which have been allocated through whatever sources from the European Union, are ring-fenced for the purposes for which they are allocated. I want the moneys allocated to go to the development of projects for the people and not on the establishment of structures.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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The Minister and his team are very welcome. I have learned much both from the report and from listening to the Minister. Allow me to tell the Minister about something that happened to me some years ago. I was asked to participate in a partnership near to the location of one of our supermarkets. It was because there was a jobs crisis, they were looking for work and I did some thinking before attending the first meeting. However, before I got a chance to open my mouth, I discovered that everyone else was expecting the Government to do something for them. Having listened to the Minister in the last few minutes and having heard of the duplication and multiplicity of organisations that are set up to do this, it is precisely what I listened to at that meeting. At the time, I said the supermarket we had in the area found it necessary to get someone from outside the area to clean its windows and that there was an opportunity for a window cleaner. A young man who was involved in the partnership set up a window-cleaning business and subsequently sold it on at the end of the year. He only had a bicycle, a bucket and a ladder but it was a joy to see someone setting up his own business, rather than being obliged to bring a window cleaner from another area. Someone else heard me make the point that even were the supermarket to run out, we would love to be able to provide fresh lettuce at 4 p.m. Consequently, someone else then set up a lettuce and cucumber growing business. Deputy Kyne mentioned the Showcase craft fair, which I also attended and it was a joy. I was so impressed by the number of individuals nationwide who are doing things.

The reason I mention this is there is almost a danger of the State telling people it is there to do something for them. I acknowledge this is neither the point being made by the Minister nor the intention. While the intention is to hold people's hands while they do things, everyone at the aforementioned meeting - until I spoke - originally had been suggesting the partnership should call on the Government and different agencies to come down and do things for them. How can one manage to sell the concept that people should do it themselves? There must be a way to do this and with this proliferation of different organisations, I wonder whether there is a danger that there almost is an expectation the Government will do it for people, rather than the other way around.

One other area for which I believe much can be done, is one the Minister also has mentioned, namely, agri-tourism. Many years ago, I was involved with a co-operative group called An Comhar Taisteal. It made a deal with CIE for a special rate whereby one could bring families to holiday on farms. These people generally were city dwellers who did not have the experience of living on a farm and they got a special deal to the nearest railway station, where the local farmer picked them up. Sometimes this was with horse and cart, sometimes with a tractor or whatever he or she had. In respect of the entire concept of people doing things for themselves, rather than having someone do it for them, the help of an organisation like CIE to transport those people to those areas was very helpful. In business, we used to joke about the number of things one should never believe. They included the cheque being in the post, assurances of love the morning after or whatever, but one was, "I am from head office and am here to help you". I would love to think there will be even greater pressure in the years ahead to avoid the selling of the concept, "I am from the Government and I am here to help you". I urge the Minister to find some way of having people able to say, "We can and must do it ourselves". While the Government will hold people's hands, will help them and will provide seed capital if needed, it should not give the impression that it is going to do it and there is some danger of this.

For the past three years, I have been involved with a programme on television which helps retailers around the country and it has brought me to places to which I had not been previously. One of the towns - it is really a crossroads - is called Rathcabbin in north County Tipperary, which really is in County Offaly because it is just north of the river, but it only has one shop and one pub - it is all the one - and it is run by one family. They were losing business to Portumna on one side and to Birr on the other side. All we did was to get the local people in the area to come to a meeting at which we told them they would not have this pub and shop unless they supported it. They had to do it themselves, even if all they did was to buy their cigarettes or newspapers there, as well as other items. While I do not encourage people to smoke, cigarettes and newspapers are the same price wherever one buys them and are not susceptible to price cuts. We told them to make sure they supported their local shop and pub. We also went down to Borrisokane and got local growers there to give local products to that shop in Rathcabbin. I believe the way it will succeed is through local people deciding they can do it themselves. It is when they recognise they will not survive if they call on someone else to do it for them but will survive if they can do it for themselves. I would have great hopes, were it possible to get across that message. The message coming from the different organisations should be they are not there to do things for people and while they can steer people in the right direction, people should not rely on the organisations to do it for them as they must do things for themselves.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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In response to Senator Quinn and as I noted in my opening remarks, I am trying to create a culture of independence rather than dependence and all the State can do is to facilitate this. It is doing so through a plethora of organisations, of which there are too many. While organisations such as Enterprise Ireland often extol the virtues of enterprise boards, they do not have the requisite resources to invest to assist people, to mentor and to monitor. I consider mentoring to be a hugely important aspect of work at local level which all local government bodies and State agencies have failed to do. While there are many people with good ideas, they do not know where to go and even if they do, they find bureaucracy at local or national level to be alien to them. Financial institutions also play an important part in this programme of creating the culture of entrepreneurship at local or any level and as people are quite shy about how one might prepare and present a business proposal to a financial institution, mentoring in that sense is equally important. The Government has put in place a range of structures, as near as possible to the citizen in order that they are as informal as possible, through which it is trying to provide a helping hand to those who have ideas and at least are given a fair run at the various financial institutions and State agencies to get some support. Obviously, however, it will not be done unless they get up in the morning and do it themselves. I think the days of believing that government can do everything for one went out a good while ago. Equally, the idea that one can depend on an organised community group to do everything for one will be difficult because they will not have the same level of resources as heretofore. Consequently, we need all structures to be in place in a rationalised sense and to come together in a one-stop-shop way to help someone with an idea. My philosophy is if we can achieve this, we will have done a lot to make sure that whatever funds are available are going towards providing a little assistance to people to give them initial support to get their projects off the ground. Ultimately, they hopefully will become independent entities thereafter.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I urge the Minister to continue on that path. Deputy Áine Collins also has drawn up a great report on mentoring with the co-operative movements.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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As politicians, we are conscious of the fact that there has been a considerable democratic deficit in some of the work that has been going on. I subscribe to the view that people who go out and get elected for a particular purpose, in rural or urban areas, should have an input into any activities, supports and projects that are under way in their area. They should be part of the decision-making process because they have gone through the pain barrier of actually eliciting support for the values and projects that are coming through the local authority or local community sectors. We can harness people together. The bottom-up approach will be retained, the democratic input through the local government sector will be present and hopefully, all the co-ordination that is lacking at present will come into play through the democratic process and through local government, which ultimately is the vehicle at local level that is accountable, through the national audit service, to the taxpayer.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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As I am conscious of people's time, we will take Senator Cullinane and Deputy Áine Collins together.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Notwithstanding any concerns I have on the Government's action plan for jobs and the Minister's plan for putting people first, I welcome the establishment of the Commission for the Economic Development of Rural Areas, CEDRA. I hope it will be able to examine failures in the system and also to consider how we can tweak the action plan for jobs and build on some of its successes as well.

The success of the Minister’s reform agenda and the linking of local government and the enterprise agencies will be based on getting buy-in from as many agencies as possible. Multi-agency buy-in is of considerable importance. We must ensure the education providers, enterprise agencies and local government but also local development and community development form part of an overarching plan and buy into the process. In the past the city and county development boards tried to bring together such stakeholders but the Minister appears to envisage the socio-economic committees taking over the role and driving it on. We must ensure we have buy-in from all the agencies across the board at a senior level if they are to be as successful as we want them to be.

Reference has been made to tying in the work of CEDRA with the Government’s jobs action strategy. The point has been made that rural areas have suffered disproportionately because of the downturn and have high levels of unemployment. Regional disparities are also evident. The Minister and I are both familiar with the south east where unemployment is 25% above the national average. Part of the problem is that the region itself does not work as an entity in the way it should, but also because the enterprise agencies have not delivered for the region. It is important that the new commission would examine rural areas and that we acknowledge the regional disparities. Recent Government policy in the national action plan for jobs places a high level of concentration on jobs in Dublin, Cork and Galway. That has been proven by IDA Ireland's figures. However, outside of the cities, many areas have suffered. I can give a quick example.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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We will not get into a discussion on the action plan for jobs. We discussed it last week. We will also have a discussion on it next week.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I accept that. The final point I wish to make in order to reinforce what I said is that last year we had 341 IDA-sponsored visits across the State. A total of 212 of those were to Dublin and Cork.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The point has been made.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Areas such as Wexford, Kilkenny and places in the south east did not get the level of support they required. It is important that we re-evaluate what is being done. I accept the work of CEDRA will be important for rural development but we must acknowledge the regional disparities that exist. More must be done to ensure that where we have high levels of unemployment above the national average we focus on it and ensure it is part of the remit of CEDRA’s work.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister and his officials. I welcome the report. It is great work and it is good to see a focus on rural areas.

We have had much talk in the committee about local enterprise offices, LEOs. I have not yet heard clarification on their new role. People have been giving out about local government structures but I welcome the fact that we will have a one-stop-shop and that people will know once and for all where to go to get information. I seek clarity on their role. In particular I would like to see more activity on the ground with a bottom-up approach in LEOs, as opposed to people having to go to them. They also do a lot of training, as does Skillnets. Perhaps we could have joined-up thinking in that regard.

In my constituency we have IRD and Ballyhoura Leader programmes. One is totally in favour of the change and the other is totally against it. That makes for interesting politics in my area. Leader programmes have done much good work. However, it is time for reform and a one-stop-shop approach. My main area of concern in the locality is that we have towns that are decimated. We have empty buildings and lots of communities that are making an effort. To follow on from the point that was made by a previous speaker, it is not about giving people money, they need nurturing. Committee members know how I feel about mentoring. If we could work on that it could help.

I spent yesterday with Fáilte Ireland discussing agritourism and rural tourism as opposed to areas that are well known. We examined how we could develop it. Fáilte Ireland’s remit is to be the Enterprise Ireland of tourism. It is all about getting people into the country. It will fall to communities and local authorities to develop local tourism. That could be considered by the Minister in his remit. I also encourage the Minister to examine co-operatives in rural towns. They cannot operate in a retail space given the costs involved. We must return to an older model of co-operatives. Perhaps we should encourage pilot projects in that regard.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Cullinane for his remarks on CEDRA. It is an opportunity for people to get together and examine the main issues on which we should concentrate in the next round of rural development funding.

Multi-agency buy-in is important. That is the principle behind what we are trying to do. Some believe that when one seeks buy-in from agencies, someone must give way. I do not look at it that way. I see it as collaboration where everyone is around the table making a contribution. One does not need the same level of duplication, overlap and administrative duplication in particular that exists currently. A stronger sense of involvement on a particular objective to be delivered is required whether it relates to an individual project or a community policy.

The membership of the socio-economic committees will be determined and agreed in consultation with the agencies and those involved in the community sector. They will be representative of public, private and community. Some of the local State agencies will also be represented. The county development boards were supposed to involve all interests but they did not. They all engaged in a silo mentality and conducted turf wars in order to hold on to whatever money they had and they would not give way. That is the reason the previous approach did not work. There were a couple of exceptions however, for example, in Westmeath. The intention was that county development boards would come together and invest resources in order to achieve a local objective. From my experience and feedback from most local authorities, the system did not work. I hope we can put a structure in place that will work better.

I agree with Senator Cullinane about the high level of unemployment in the south east. I welcome his interest in the area. Sinn Féin was not supportive of what we were trying to do with hospitals in Kilkenny and Wexford lately. I am delighted to know that it is not all about Waterford with Senator Cullinane but his concern is regional. Everywhere in the region is entitled-----

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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It might surprise the Minister to learn that the committee gave me the opportunity to be a special rapporteur to develop a jobs action plan for the south east. I am most interested in the south east.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am talking about hospitals.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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There is a big difference between that and bumping up capital projects for one’s own benefit.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Did Sinn Féin not-----

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I want to ensure we have proper, balanced regional development.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Did Sinn Féin not table a motion in Wexford Borough Council to find out where the money was gone? Senator Cullinane cannot have it every way.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Is the Minister present to talk about jobs or about his own constituency?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Senator Cullinane’s interest in the south east, not just Waterford.

Deputy Áine Collins referred to the elimination of duplication and LEOs. I share her sentiments. I am aware of her document on mentoring. I have asked a number of people to examine it to ascertain what we can do. In the previous round of funding, training under the rural development programme included €9 million for mentoring. A further €16 million has been committed for the purpose and a total of €25 million remains to be allocated. Much funding is available for north Cork to get a slice of the pie for mentoring and training purposes, perhaps along the lines of the co-operative movement to which the Deputy referred. The Leader and rural development programme is the only source of funding which is still available.

In response to Senator Quinn, to date we have spent €17 million in the current programme on tourism projects. A further €28 million of funding has been committed. A number of agritourism projects exist and I hope investment in them will continue in 2013.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I call Senator Kelly first and then Deputy Penrose. I welcome Deputy Penrose, a former chairman of the committee.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I recognise a few bodies.

John Kelly (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister and what he is seeking to do in trying to revive rural areas.

I feel as if I am living two separate lives. I come to Dublin for three or four days a week and the place is hopping. When I go home, the complete opposite in the case. It is all doom and gloom. There is absolutely nothing happening in smaller towns. Obviously many people have emigrated, although thankfully many have migrated to bigger cities, particularly from my own town, for work. The problem is that the town centre is dying in places like Ballaghaderreen, Castlerea, Strokestown, Swinford, Charlestown and other towns around Mayo and Roscommon. The heart has gone from the town centres. All we see is derelict houses and shops and more and more pubs and small grocers closing down. They cannot compete with the multinationals. One of the major problems was that local authorities gave planning permission to the likes of Tesco and Dunnes on the outskirts of the town. Shoppers come from rural areas, fill their cars and go straight home again, contributing nothing to the heart of the town. We took our eye off the ball on that.

The rates that small shops are being charged in these towns are another factor. In a local shop a friend of mine had to reduce the floor space of the shop by two thirds. He squeezed the entire stock of the shop into one third of the original space to reduce his rates bill. He employs one girl two days a week and he is struggling. The Minister might consider some kind of an incentive for the development of town centres to give back the towns to the people and to rejuvenate the heart of these towns. He should do that because no matter what it costs, it will create jobs as well. There might be an initial outlay but that will be paid back when people come off the dole.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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RGDATA is appearing before the committee next week to discuss town centre development and we will send our recommendations from that meeting to the Minister. We are meeting today about the rural challenge. I accept there are town centres in rural areas but we are slightly straying from the topic.

John Kelly (Labour)
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During the good times, Dawn Meats was located in our town and the previous Government gave it a grant of €17 million to do up another plant in Ballyhaunis in County Mayo, and once it did that, it closed the factory in Ballaghaderreen. At the time, not much was said because those who had been in the factory could find work building houses. Everyone had another job to go to the following day. Now, however, there is outrage at the fact it was allowed to happen. The factory is still there. It could be used in a pilot scheme for quality Irish beef burgers if we had a Minister who was willing to propose these things to the likes of Dawn Meats. Those companies do not listen to the likes of me but they might listen to Ministers.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation appears before the committee on a regular basis so we can raise that issue with him.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I am glad the Minister and the Government are taking an interest in rural Ireland because it has been bypassed for the past few years at policy level. The Chairman and a few of the rest of us went round those areas and wrote a report on them. Much of the apparent prosperity in rural areas was primarily related to the construction boom, which was only fleeting and it left only bodies in its wake. Nothing happened afterwards and these towns are now decimated.

Rural shops are now just social centres for people. Not one rural shop is making a penny. Every one of them is being cross-subsidised. Unless we get a rates relief scheme in place for those shops, or social centres as I call them, they will close. Between Mullingar and Longford there will not be a single rural shop in five years. That includes petrol stations. The only ones that might survive are the post offices that are now linked to the banks to provide financial services. It is important they continue with that. The credit unions should also be linked to the post office system at this stage. That would overcome many of the difficulties of elderly people worrying about their finances in the current climate, where the Garda station has been closed. It is important to promote the post office. It is the one viable measure that can be undertaken.

The Minister is involved in planning. If someone wants to set up a small cottage industry baking bread or making jam, he has to go through the full gamut of planning permission, costing thousands. Why not have a licence system where people could make a submission to the local authority, which would then grant a licence for a year or two and which could be re-examined? The environmental health officers would check on the outlets to ensure they operate properly. We recommended that.

Many rural areas are trying to get back on their feet. There are Tidy Towns committees and community development groups, Irish Rural Link groups and Young at Heart clubs. They are fighting back but when there is a plethora of organisations, no one knows which to go to for help. That is the problem. If they were brought together within a overarching structure, people would know where to go.

Pat Spillane is starting his consultations tomorrow night and I welcome that. Send him down to my own area, Ballynacargy, which is a microcosm of the struggle to survive. We must maintain villages, and I said this to officials in the Minister's Department who vilified me for looking for rural housing that helped to sustain and maintain rural areas. That might not mean a lot to many people. The schools, post offices, Garda stations and the sports clubs will all be wiped out unless the report the Minister is working on comes to fruition. God speed to him on his way. It is great to see someone taking an interest at Government level. I wish the Minister, Pat Spillane and his committee well. I will certainly be making an input into the report.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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There is a meeting in Longford on Monday night, if that is of any use to Deputy Penrose. Senator Kelly and Deputy Penrose both covered the range of problems we have in rural towns and villages, particularly for small shopkeepers. We identified that very early on and in line with the Planning Development Act, we got on with the work of developing the core strategy areas in every town to stop this nonsense of denigrating the town centres by moving everything to the periphery. We can give plenty of examples but perhaps the best is Naas, where Tesco and 36 other shops are 1.5 kilometres from the town centre. That might have been fine when times were good but we can see the damage it did by pulling the heart out of the centre.

If the town centre looks well, and there are plenty of shops open, it makes a great impression. We have initiated a proposal asking local authorities to reduce development levies, particularly for town centres. Any influence committee members might have with their local councillors should be brought to bear so they focus on bringing in a meaningful reduction in development levies, which are more in keeping with the boom than they are with conditions now.

We hope they will adopt a scheme that will be more in keeping with the current times and will ensure substantial increases in income. Some years ago, a reduction in capital gains tax resulted in a substantial increase in revenue from the tax because the reduction stimulated activity. A similar increase could occur if development levies were reduced. Financial institutions will no longer pay development levies as part of a loan. Local authorities need to join the real world by substantially reducing the development levies they charge.

I agree that a differentiated approach to commercial rates is required. I have made this point regularly inside and outside of Government meetings. While we lack the resources to do a meaningful job in this regard, I continue to beat the drum on the issue and the joint committee should do similarly. A reduction of 5% or 10% in commercial rates could be meaningful for a large company but would be minuscule for a small shop. Thinking outside the box is needed, for example, providing for a short holiday from commercial rates, if we are to ensure the entities to which the Senator and Deputy referred survive in the next couple of years.

The retail planning guidelines, in which Deputy Penrose was involved, are a perfect example of how we put our shoulders to the wheel to protect shopkeepers and face down a certain type of lobbying. I make no apologies for doing so. The large organisations which regularly appear before the joint committee may not appreciate this view.

The other area on which we are working is the rationalisation of licences along the lines described by the Deputy. The Minister of State, Deputy Perry, may have discussed with the committee the requirement on shopkeepers who are involved in the delicatessen and food business and may have a forecourt where they distribute certain oil products or perhaps a bottle of whiskey to comply with approximately 20 licences across local and national agencies. This is outrageous and a one-stop-shop is required for licensing this type of activity and providing the support we want to give entrepreneurs who want to start up a new business.

Michelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is undertaking important work on rural communities and I welcome the approach he is taking. Much of what we value in this country is located in rural communities. We must address issues that make such communities sustainable or otherwise. I agree in principle with the Minister's proposal to streamline some of the work undertaken by the companies delivering the rural development programme and local community development programme. However, while I accept there may be some degree of duplication with the work of local authorities, I am also concerned about the proposals. Some of the Leader companies which deliver the programmes do excellent work for which they have secured buy-in from voluntary and community groups, for example, in areas such as village enhancement, alternative microenterprises and many other success stories.

Concerns have been raised in response to the Minister's proposals to amalgamate and streamline the Leader companies. I am concerned, for example, about the prospect of local authorities becoming involved in delivering programmes on the ground. Mayo Abbey community programme in my county is delivering programmes, including meals on wheels, which are bearing fruit. I cannot foresee a local authority becoming involved in the community to the same extent.

Deputy Áine Collins used the word "nurturing". I am gravely concerned that something will be destroyed in the proposed amalgamation process. The current programmes deliver great benefits to people in rural areas. I enjoyed serving on a local authority for a while and I commend the good work done by local authorities. However, given the micro level at which the Leader companies operate, I ask the Minister to proceed with caution if he chooses to pursue his plans to streamline these companies.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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My Department supports volunteer centres, community and voluntary fora in every county, local authorities, the community sector and the bottom-up approach associated with the European funding we receive under the rural development programme. We also have in place the local community development programme. There is, therefore, a large degree of support in place for communities. As the Deputy correctly pointed out, if we did not have these programmes, Mayo Abbey and many similar bodies in other areas would not be as strong as they are. We are not asking local authorities to get involved in the Mayo Abbeys of this world but to streamline existing structures to allow scarce resources to be deployed to assist Mayo Abbey and similar organisations with their current expenditure costs, for example, by providing a new minibus for community activities. This is to ensure funding is not tied up in administration. There are sufficient administrative structures in place in the local government system under current budgets to deal successfully with the programmes that are on offer.

It is possible that funding for the new rural development programme will be only half what was made available under the previous six year programme. Surely the Deputy is not advocating providing the same level of administrative support to deliver a programme that will be less than half the size of the current programme. I can understand the reason community groups are worried about this issue. They became accustomed to a particular structure and support base when times were good. The big issue is to ensure a high level of participation on the ground rather than in offices, and that will be our focus. We intend to streamline this process to avoid duplication.

We must also have an accountable structure in place for the European Commission. We do not have clear blue water on such issues, as the Deputy will be aware from her own area, and we are trying to solve them. Unfortunately, this has been going on for too long. We are trying to find a way to enable north-east County Mayo to apply successfully through the system before the end of this year. We are working with the community to try to achieve this objective.

The number of local government staff nationally has declined by 9,000, yet we expect local authorities to deliver the same level of service. They will not be able to do this without the support of the community sector. It is in our interests to ensure synergies between the community and local government sectors. This must be done in a democratic and co-ordinated manner rather than in the disjointed way we have at present.

Michelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Given that the Minister referred to north-east County Mayo, I will briefly raise the issue with him because the Mayo North-East Leader Partnership Company is in my constituency. As the Minister knows, its delivery of the rural development programme was suspended in March 2012 owing to governance issues in the company. I accept that the issues should be investigated and due process observed, and I am aware the Department has reported back and further due process is being pursued in respect of the matter. The Minister has received many representations on the issue. The position at the Mayo North-East Leader Partnership Company has changed. A new regime is in place and there is a good working relationship with the Department. The Department's report confirms that the company is now fit for purpose. I also understand it contains a series of recommendations which have not been implemented.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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This is not the appropriate forum for dealing in detail with a specific case. The Deputy may briefly raise the matter and the Minister may wish to provide a written reply after the meeting.

Michelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As I have the floor to myself, I ask the Chairman to indulge me for two minutes. The staff of the programme in Mayo north-east have done a great deal of good work under the new regime and are delivering the local community development programme, the local employment service, the jobs initiative, FÁS, the rural social scheme and the community employment scheme.

Between the participants and those who operate it, nearly 400 people are involved. It is undergoing audits with different State agencies and Departments, such as the Department of Social Protection, Pobal, the county council and so on. People in north-east County Mayo are losing out massively. Initially, and I acknowledge this figure was adjusted downwards, they were to benefit from the investment into the region of approximately €10.8 million. However, only €4.4 million has been paid out and allocated to date. This is the programme's final year and a year has been lost. Not a second day goes by without some community organisation expressing to me its interest in pursuing a tourism or enterprise initiative and I can only tell it there is nowhere to go. Consequently, I ask the Minister to reinstate the rural development programme for that company, even if that be under supervision. I thank the Minister and thank the Chairman for his indulgence.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am glad the Deputy put the record straight. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government did not cause the problems in Mayo North-East Leader. They were caused by the company, whereby irregularities in procedure and practice were discovered and are now subject to investigation by the fraud squad. This is not a nice thing to be obliged to say about any company but under the rules from the European Commission and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, one must comply with certain regulations for the rural development programme with which Mayo North-East Leader has not complied. The company is completely responsible for that. Over the past year and a half, the Department has been very patient and due process has been given. The fact that the document has been referred to the Garda for investigation for fraud purposes does not indicate a clean bill of health, far from it, but work is under way to try to resolve some of the issues. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the auditors for the European Commission have made progress in recent weeks on some of the issues that were raised.

I subscribe to the Deputy's remarks on the need for important projects to be brought forward as quickly as possible. I remind her that even though one must get approval for a project this year, one has until 31 December 2015 to spend the money and to complete the project. Consequently, a little time still remains but the most important thing in respect of the project promoters that are coming to the Deputy with ideas is to set up a system to allow them to get in for consideration and approval. Perhaps one way in which this can be done is to use County Mayo as an area in which the socioeconomic committee of the local government sector could be piloted. Hopefully, the Department will come to conclusions with the various community organisations with which it has been discussing these issues within the next couple of weeks. Were County Mayo to be prioritised, it would allow this structure to utilise itself as a local action group to be able to take applications and submit them to the Department for approval. I will give consideration to that on foot of the patience Deputy Mulherin and other public representatives have been obliged to endure in north-east Mayo.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for that. On behalf of the joint committee, I first wish to apologise to the Minister for starting late and moving the Minister's time. This also is the reason some members have been obliged to leave and is not a reflection on the Minister or his officials. I thank the Minister, his officials and team for their attendance, which has been very worthwhile. There are a couple of issues with which we might engage with the Minister at a later stage. We hope to engage with RGDATA on its report on town centre development and so on, as well as to tackle this area of-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, is the delegated Minister with responsibility for planning and she will be glad to assist the joint committee.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Very well. In addition, we wish to compliment the labour activation schemes. The joint committee's own report is coming out next week on the range of new schemes to tackle youth unemployment and the new county council scheme will be complemented. Members also have some suggestions the joint committee might feed into the Department for future reference.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The labour activation scheme through the local authority system will have started in a few pilot areas by 1 May. The Department of Social Protection and my Department are coming to some conclusions in this regard and I expect the scheme will start on 1 May in pilot areas with 1,000 participants in 2013.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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That is great. I again thank the Minister and his team and again thank him for his help with the joint committee's report on the black market, which we appreciate.