Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome representatives of Pavee Point for our discussion of the habitual residence condition: Ms Ronnie Fay, director, Ms Gabi F. Muntean, community development worker with the Roma project, and Ms Siobhan Curran, the Roma project co-ordinator. Apologies have been received from Ms Monika Makulova.

I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in regard to a particular matter and he or she continues to do so, that witness is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. The opening statements the witnesses submitted to the committee will be published on the committee website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses. I invite Ms Fay to make her comments.

Ms Ronnie Fay:

Pavee Point is delighted to have the opportunity to make this presentation on issues with regard to social protection for the Roma community living in Ireland. We have a long track record of working on Traveller and Roma issues both in Ireland and at a European level since our foundation in 1985. We have had a dedicated Roma project since 2000. Today we will focus on the impact of the habitual residence condition on the Roma community in Ireland, and my colleague Ms Siobhan Curran will outline the actions we would like to see happen to address the concerns we will outline. Ms Gabi Muntean will outline her personal experience and the consequences for Roma community members who cannot access social protection in the State.

Pavee Point is not naive and does not suggest that Ireland should be responsible for resolving the problems of all the Roma living in the European Union. We propose that the Government take both a humanitarian and a pragmatic approach in addressing the concerns of the Roma living in Ireland that we will highlight. We believe there is a need for an European-wide co-ordinated approach in addressing Roma issues and we welcome the European framework for national Roma integration strategies. However, it is most unfortunate that the Irish Government has totally ignored the existence of the Roma community living in Ireland and Roma are invisible in the Irish strategy. The mindset of the State appears to be one of ignoring the Roma community and hoping its members will go away. The reality is that Roma are a part of Ireland now and have been since the mid-1990s, and Pavee Point believes that we need to proactively address their needs.

There are an estimated 12 million to 15 million Roma living in the European Union. Official policies against the Roma during the past 70 years have included containment and forced assimilation, while in the worst period during the Second World War, between a quarter and half a million Roma were exterminated by the Nazi regime. After the Second World War the predominant policy in many states was forced assimilation of Roma. Since the fall of the Communist regimes in eastern Europe in 1989, the situation of Roma has for the most part worsened. With the transition to a market economy, Roma have become increasingly marginalised. Openly anti-Roma attitudes suppressed under Communist systems have re-emerged in more virulent and sometimes violent form. In the first half of 2012 alone, the European Roma Rights Centre highlighted media reports of at least 20 attacks across four countries, including ten deaths of Romani people. The response of authorities to such abuses has often been characterised by a failure to investigate racist crimes, in some cases even blaming the victims, while in others the authorities are the perpetrators. Because many central and eastern European countries continue to fail to address anti-Roma discrimination or provide protection against violent attacks, some Roma seek a better life in western European states, including in Ireland. There are no accurate data on the Roma population in Ireland, as we do not disaggregate data on ethnicity. However, we estimate there are about 5,000 Roma living here.

We want a humanitarian, pragmatic and common-sense approach to the needs of Roma living in Ireland. Otherwise, the alternative will be the creation of a permanent underclass of Roma where poverty, exclusion and racism are the norm. Resources are being used for negative measures such as policing, criminalisation and hospitalisation rather than positively for Roma development and inclusion. The former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Thomas Hammarberg, in a report concerning Roma and social security which was published last year, said that Roma are being denied access to services or given reduced assistance, that there is discriminatory application of social assistance programmes and that the use of certain regulations and policies have the effect of rendering Roma ineligible for regular social services.

We argue that the application of the habitual residence condition, HRC, within Ireland is an example of that kind of discrimination.

Pavee Point is also mindful of Ireland's history of emigration and the hostile treatment afforded to the Irish community in both 19th century America and 20th century Britain, when many Irish were forced abroad to seek a better life for themselves and their families. We ask this committee and others in positions of power in Ireland to draw parallels with the way Roma are being treated here.

We will highlight three key actions which we ask the committee to address. We call on the Department of Social Protection to provide a humanitarian response and to ensure that Roma are not living in extreme poverty without the basics of food and shelter. We call for the provision of targeted training programmes that can be accessed by Roma in Ireland in order to support them in finding employment. We ask for an impact assessment of the habitual residence condition, HRC. Ms Siobhan Curran will describe in more detail some of those actions.

Ms Siobhan Curran:

As Ms Ronnie Fay has noted, we wish to bring to the attention of the committee the significant impact of the habitual residence condition. This matter has been raised as a major concern by Roma and by people working in the HSE, the education sector and the wider NGO sector. The HSE in particular is very concerned about the issues facing Roma. To this end, Pavee Point and the HSE organised a number of seminars to discuss the issues facing Roma in Ireland. The major theme at these seminars was that the habitual residence condition is resulting in serious issues of child poverty and destitution for Roma in Ireland. For example, social workers have reported concerns about young babies whose parents have no means to support them. Forced poverty is causing serious child protection issues. Social workers report that they are forced to consider taking a child into care simply to provide access to basic services. Social workers are frustrated that this is the only option for looking after these children.

Education and welfare officers are also noting the impact of the habitual residence condition on access to education and the ability of Roma parents to send their children to school. There is also a significant health impact. Pavee Point has received reports of Roma who are not entitled to medical cards on the basis that they are unable to provide evidence of means. The HSE has reported that children with serious medical conditions are unable to receive medical cards. Pavee Point receives calls from statutory representatives from Dublin, Galway, Athlone, Limerick, Donegal and from all over the country because of problems encountered in developing responses to the issues facing Roma.

The effect of the habitual residence condition cannot be under-estimated. For example, a Roma man was claiming entitlements but his payments were cut off because he did not fulfil the habitual residence condition. He became homeless and a few months later he died on the streets of Dublin. The impact of this habitual residence condition is very severe and can be fatal in some cases.

I refer to the financial cost of the habitual residence condition. The impact of these policies is bringing Roma into contact with the State in all sorts of different forms. They are dealing with social workers, educational workers, education and welfare officers, the Garda Síochána and the emergency health services. This involves expenditure which could be avoided if people were to be provided with basic financial supports in the first instance rather than allow them fall into destitution.

We propose a humanitarian response for Roma who have no access to supports. We need a response urgently to ensure that Roma are not living in destitution. We argue that the Roma in Ireland and across Europe constitute a special case. Roma have experienced discrimination and racism over generations and this has impacted on their access to education, training and employment. We need to develop a response that takes this into account. We suggest that funding be made available for training and supports specifically tailored for Roma so that they can gain employment.

We ask for an impact assessment to be conducted on the habitual residence condition. Other groups have also called for such an assessment. The special rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights has also recommended it in her most report in 2012. A proper assessment of the impact of the habitual residence condition is required. We believe these measures would pave the way for the inclusion of Roma in Irish society as well as reflecting a commitment to human rights. As the current holder of the Presidency of the European Union and as a new member of the UN Human Rights Council, this is an opportunity for Ireland to show leadership in the area of human rights.

My colleague, Ms Gabi Muntean, will speak about the impact of the habitual residence condition.

Ms Gabi Muntean:

I came to Ireland in 2000. In 2007 I applied for child benefit. I was told I was not habitually resident in Ireland. I had been living in Ireland since 2000. My son and my husband were living with me and I was engaged in a lot of voluntary work. Finally, in 2007, after seven years living in Ireland, I received notice that I was regarded as habitually resident.

I would like the committee to understand how difficult it was for me. My family and I were very insecure because our application was pending. We were not sure if we would be eligible for supplementary welfare allowance from week to week. We were extremely lucky to receive the payment but this is no longer available to others. One week we received no payment and I was terrified. I thought I would be unable to survive in Ireland and I ended up in hospital. It is very hard to go through this experience. One of the biggest worries was that I would be refused child benefit. My son was going to school and I could not afford to buy his uniform, his books or his lunch. I have only one child but many Roma families have three, four, five or seven children. Even with one child I find it very difficult to cope. I ask the committee to imagine how difficult it is for larger families with lots of children. They often cannot cope. Sometimes they are unable to send their children to school. In some cases, parents will send two or three children to school and keep the rest at home. They need support to at least send the children to school.

Some Roma have no income and they are forced to beg. Begging is not our culture. If they do not beg they will not be able to eat. Children are living in extreme poverty and this is of concern to social workers who take the children away from their families in some cases.

People should not be ignored just because they beg. People have nothing and they have no entitlements. They need to be given support. We should not send people back to places where they may be in danger. Roma need to be supported to find employment. Some Roma are not well educated. They may be illiterate and unable to speak fluent English. These people need to be supported.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ronnie, Gabi and Siobhan for their presentation. It is harrowing to hear Gabi's description of how vulnerable people in our society are affected by decisions. The habitual residence condition is a regulation which details the reasons for excluding people from receiving social welfare payments.

However, as a society we should also be mindful that there will always be people who fall through the cracks and as a result live in poverty. There are others, not just the Roma community, who fall foul of the habitual residency condition and remain here to survive by whatever means. Those are not just Roma. Many Irish citizens also fall foul of the residency condition. That is one of the reasons this committee is examining how that be changed to ensure it does not prevent people getting some type of safety net payment to help them survive. It is a disgrace if children living in this country cannot at least get child benefit payments.

On the number of members of the Roma community living here, the census does not cover that adequately. How does Pavee Point believe we could address that issue? If the numbers were captured properly in the census it would help determine the number of the Roma community that are employed, their ages and so on. That would give it the figures that determine the way Ireland, but also the European Union as a whole, deals with a population which has been discriminated against for years.

Ms Curran also said Pavee Point has a dedicated Roma programme. How many people go through that programme? What are the plans to increase the number participating? I am aware there was a more vibrant one in the past before some of the changes and cuts were effected but now that there are additional community employment, CE, places available do the witnesses intend to make another submissions to try to build a CE programme specifically on the Roma community and perhaps use that to liaise with the various members of the Roma community? I am aware that in the main they are often concentrated in groups or in families in and around cities. That is as much as I know other than one or two Roma people who have come to my clinic in dire straits where schools have identified the crisis in which their families are living. They have ensured the children can attend school but they are going to school hungry and without adequate clothing and school books. A school I was dealing with, and the parents, managed to intervene and help for a number of months but the community welfare officer was not for turning in one case in particular.

This is a Europe-wide issue. What specific change do the witnesses believe can be brought about at European level that would help the Roma community access social welfare in the European Union? I do not want to get into the range of human rights issues and so on because we deal with the social welfare issues in this committee.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for their presentation. I am sorry I was delayed. This is an important issue. I get the sense that the Roma people - I understand there are 15 million of them across Europe - are people that nobody wants as a result of which they are poorly treated wherever they go. My understanding is that there are approximately 5,000 Roma in Ireland. Pavee Point has been dealing with this issue for a number of years. What is the witnesses' sense of a national strategy or policy response to the issue of the Roma community, their needs and entitlements? What must be done for them? Is it the case that the State effectively wants the issue to go away or pretend it does not exist? Has anything ever been written down on paper that suggested how to address the wants, needs and requirements of the Roma community?

Deputy Ó Snodaigh touched on the EU-wide context and that we have the Presidency. Am I right in understanding that the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, suggested that one of the priorities for our term is how the EU would tackle this issue? The witnesses might comment on that.

Ireland has reported to the United Nations on our progress this year on the Convention on the Rights of the Child. In terms of Roma children being punished because of this State's instinctive distrust - that might be too strong a statement but it probably is accurate - of the Roma community, what implications will that have regarding the Convention on the Rights of the Child and the report the State must make to the UN?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Regarding the habitual residence condition, what is the Department of Social Protection looking for that makes it difficult for Roma people to comply?

Ms Siobhan Curran:

I thank the members for their questions and comments. Deputy Ó Snodaigh asked about the number of Roma and how we address the fact that we do not have accurate statistics. It is clear that in the census, for example, we need to ask a question about Roma and therefore an ethnic identifier should be included on the form. That must happen across all systems including health, education and so on. We must have ethnic identifiers across those areas.

In the immediate term what could happen is a containable research project where we would map out where Roma are living in Ireland. It is quite easy to do. There are other models that could be followed where people try to get a census of homeless people in Ireland. We could try to map where people are located. We need the funding to do that but if we are to address the issues facing Roma in Ireland we must start developing evidencebased policies which would help us know who is here, where they are located, the needs they are expressing, and their rights. That is the way we develop sensible policies. That is clearly articulated in the common basic principles of the European Union. They outline ten principles on working with Roma, the first of which is on evidence based policy making. Any efforts in that regard and any support from the committee in trying to access the funding or ensuring that is done would be helpful.

The Deputy spoke about the dedicated Roma project in Pavee Point. Unfortunately, we received a cut to our local training initiative which is now gone. That was a local training initiative specifically for training Roma participants. The cut was absolute and therefore the training programme is no longer in operation. People call in regularly to Pavee Point asking about a training programme for Roma in which they can engage. A trust in Pavee Point has been built up over time that we must not lose sight of and must capitalise on because there are Roma people who want to engage with the structure of Pavee Point, and if we had a training programme they would engage with it.

We have submitted a proposal to FÁS for a primary health care programme for Roma. The primary health care model for Travellers has been shown to be a success and therefore building on that we submitted a similar funding proposal.

This was rejected so we are trying to source funding again. We are ready and willing to drive the initiatives but need support.

Much is happening at EU level that allows us to address a few questions. The European Commission has urged all member states to develop a national Roma integration strategy. This is quite momentous in that it is the first time the Commission has explicitly called on member states to develop a co-ordinated response. Member states were to submit their plans by 2011, and Ireland submitted a national Traveller-Roma integration strategy. The document has to include Travellers because they are part of Roma in the European sense. Unfortunately, the strategy contains no timelines, indicators or targets so it ceases to be useable. It excludes Roma. We have a national Traveller-Roma integration strategy that has failed to address the issues the Roma community faces. While the Commission has called for the development of a policy and pressure is being exerted, it is now up to the Department of Justice and Equality to ensure the strategy is up to scratch and reflects what the Commission has called for. One of the key elements is the active participation of Roma.

Let me return to the question of social protection. The strategy should include four key areas, namely, health, accommodation, education and social protection. This is a vehicle to address the issues. It is a really strong vehicle because all European member states have similar initiatives. We need to heed the Commission's views and develop a strong strategy. While we hold the Presidency, we need to show leadership.

The Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter, was making a presentation on justice and home affairs last week or the week before. He was quite clear, when questioned about the Roma integration strategy, that it is a priority for the Presidency. He was very clear that racism and discrimination need to be challenged.

With regard to the Convention on the Rights of the Child, we are due to report this year. Issues have been raised in the past about habitual residence conditions, the impact on children and how the status of parents results in differential treatment for children.

Organisations in addition to mine, including FLAC, have argued that Roma children are being excluded because of the status of their parents. There is a strong argument for addressing this. Furthermore, there are children living in poverty, which contravenes human rights obligations. It is very clear that this is happening and we are hearing it from all quarters. It will be a considerable issue for the committee, and members will be very concerned to hear what is happening.

I was asked about difficulties with compliance. There are five criteria that a person must meet to be deemed habitually resident. They all require the provision of a significant amount of evidence to prove a link with Ireland. Difficulties arise for many Roma in terms of language, literacy, etc., but not just in trying to engage with the system. Generally, people who approach Pavee Point are getting assistance but it takes quite a lot of time to take the steps required to be deemed habitually resident. It requires considerable understanding of the documents. Many individuals do not have the documentary evidence to prove their place of residence, for example. If an individual comes here and ends up living with extended family because he may not have other means, he may not necessarily be able to provide a tenancy lease document. These types of issues arise time and again.

Employment constitutes one of the criteria. Many Roma have faced considerable barriers in gaining employment in Ireland. The employment record is affected because it is assessed. Owing to the fact that Roma from Romania or Bulgaria, in particular, needed work permits to work until July 2012, their work records are really affected. It is important to bear in mind that there are those who were simply not allowed to work. That was the de factoresult of the work permit regime. When the affected are applying, they do not have the work record that is necessary. There is also a gender element in that women who have been primary carers and who are without an official work record have been affected.

The issues concern the work record and establishing a link with Ireland. People are asked whether they have a bank account, for example. The questions asked and the thinking surrounding what we are trying to find out are not always suited to various groups. Roma are falling foul of this. We can see the impact, which is extreme poverty. That is what is coming back to us from all quarters.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I congratulate Pavee Point on its work. Pavee Point is probably one of the best known names in the country. I can assure Ms Curran its reputation extends all over Ireland.

Ms Curran referred to a needs policy. In this respect, she is correct. We really need to know who to focus on, where they are and their needs. The habitual residency clause causes problems, not only for the Roma but for everyone. Irish people who were away for a number years but who have returned to care for an elderly relative, for example, are encountering problems owing to the clause. While it presents a difficulty, one must appreciate why it was put in place. The Irish social welfare system has been quite generous. If we did not have such a clause, the floodgates would open. There is no doubt about that. Having said that, the clause does not excuse circumstances in which any child must live in poverty. One should be able to gain access to services.

If the Roma come to Ireland and cannot gain access to social welfare, how are they living? Have they got supplementary welfare? How do they gain access to accommodation? Unless one has some money coming here, one would find it impossible. How many Roma who have been able to gain access to training have been employed in Ireland?

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I apologise for not having been here for the start of the presentation. However, I attended the workshop so I am familiar with the case being made by Pavee Point. I welcome Ms Curran to this meeting to make her case.

Ms Curran made a number of recommendations for the Department of Social Protection. Will amending the guidelines be sufficient or is there a requirement to change the law? I ask that the committee send the recommendations to the policy section of the Department for a specific response on each. Very often, we send a report to the Department and it just lies there. This deserves a specific response.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With regard to the point made on the role of the Department of Justice and Equality, it might be worth asking the Minister or an official to appear before the committee to explain the changes it is hoped to bring about in Europe, particularly Ireland.

It might be appropriate at that stage to ask about census figures or a specific programme to map where the Roma community lives, poverty levels and what is preventing their access to employment and proper housing. The committee can ascertain this information by letter to the Department of Justice and Equality or get an official to attend the committee as we have the EU Presidency.

On the habitual residence condition, HRC, I have had many dealings with people from the common travel area who are resident in this State but who have been affected by trying to prove their centre of interest is now in this State. There is much backwards and forwards with Traveller families between here and England. They often move for several weeks, sometimes for several years, between the two jurisdictions, whether it is in the North or England. How has the imposition of the habitual residence condition affected Travellers? I know it has affected Irish citizens from the Border region who have had to move between the two jurisdictions for work. Very often, they find the condition affects their entitlement to social welfare benefits and they are forced to make an appeal. What is Pavee Point's experience with the HRC?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Ó Ríordáin had information that there were approximately 5,000 Roma in Ireland. How many Travellers are living in Ireland?

Ms Ronnie Fay:

There are about 36,000 Travellers in Ireland. This is based on the evidence from the all-Ireland Traveller health study which was undertaken by University College Dublin for the Department of Health and published in 2010. The census gives a figure of 29,000 but the Central Statistics Office would recognise some of the weaknesses in its figures because some enumerators may have been afraid to go on sites and Traveller families living in double-upped accommodation who may not been counted. The 36,000 figure is probably the more accurate. We estimate the Roma population is 5,000. If Travellers are 0.5% of the entire population, what does that make the Roma? This has also to be seen in the context of the European Union population of Roma which is 15 million.

We are saying that we need to invest in inclusion measures now rather than creating a separate sub-culture of poverty which will cost us more in the long run. The bull must be taken by the horns now and integration should be proactively supported. We mean that in the best possible sense. We do not mean assimilation but respecting the different cultures. We need to hold on to what is good in the culture and challenge what is negative. Like all cultures, there are good and bad dimensions.

In common with the groups that Senator Moloney mentioned, the HRC is having a negative impact on many other people other than who it was intended to affect when it was initially introduced. It was designed to address welfare tourism which never materialised as the numbers are very small. If one thinks about austerity and how Ireland is perceived in the European Union, I do not believe we are going to be awash with people coming to Ireland. We need to be pragmatic and adopt a common-sense approach to this. Several years ago, the HRC was a major issue for Travellers but those numbers have reduced. Many Travellers are now staying in Britain or going there because they have no chance of development in Ireland. The HRC is set down across the European Union. How can Irish Travellers in Britain qualify for social welfare in Britain when they cannot in the Irish context? I believe there are broader issues at play.

It needs to be recognised that we need to build confidence among the Roma community when it comes to collating data on it, the same way we had to with Travellers. The nationality data was used to exterminate Roma in concentration camps in the past. Accordingly, they have a particular fear around data collection on ethnicity and nationality. One has to work with the community on this and they have to understand the value of the data which will inform evidence-based policy, counter discrimination and develop new initiatives. We have to take positive action now because of the Roma experience of genocide.

Ms Gabi Muntean:

We have Roma children going to university in Ireland.

There are many Roma families operating shops and working in Ireland but nobody takes note of this. They are not visible and do not want to be visible. When I first tried to rent a house and told the landlord I was Roma, he asked me "Do you beg?", which I do not. If one is Roma, the first question one is asked is, "Do you beg?"

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This has been an informative meeting. As suggested by Deputy Ryan, we will send the recommendations to the Minister for Social Protection and ask for her response. On the matter raised by Deputy Ó Snodaigh, I do not think the committee has the capacity to ask the Minister for Justice and Equality to come before it. The clerk will write to him requesting information on the matter raised by the Deputy.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It would not be necessary for the Minister to appear before the committee. I presume there is an official in the Department of Justice and Equality who deals with these issues.

Ms Ronnie Fay:

May I make a suggestion? The committee could ask the Department of Justice and Equality to present its strategy for the integration of Roma people into Ireland, although in reality it does not have one. The Department should be made aware of the weaknesses in the system and be held to account in this regard. Deputy Ó Ríordáin asked earlier about the Government approach to the Roma community. As I stated earlier, the mindset is if we ignore them, they will go away. In our view, they will not go away. The perception is that they are creating problems for Irish society in terms of begging and so on. We are concerned about the impact of this on the Roma community whose human rights, health, education and employment prospects are being denied them.

Ms Siobhan Curran:

The point I wish to make may been covered already. On Deputy Ryan's question, we have advocated for specific changes to the guidelines as the best response for now. In reality, the application of habitual residence needs to be looked at. The starting point is the impact assessment.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has the agency included its suggested changes to the guidelines in its report?

Ms Siobhan Curran:

Yes. We have also included recommendations on issues such as violence in the home. In one particular case, a woman moved back in with her violent partner because she was not habitually resident. We have suggested that in the interim if habitual residence is to be applied it should at least be gender sensitive and should not place women in direct danger. It is important to us that the wider issue is addressed.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would Deputy Ó Snodaigh like the committee secretariat to write to the Department of Justice and Equality asking that it make a presentation on the strategy?

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It does not have to make a presentation - a response by way of letter would suffice. We can then, based on the response, decide if we want to engage in a formal meeting. It would be useful if, as suggested by Ms Fay, we had sight of the strategy which is supposed to cover the Roma and Traveller communities but makes no reference to the Roma community. The Minister for Justice and Equality has stated that these issues will be addressed during the EU Presidency. While he is not accountable to this committee on EU Presidency issues it would be useful for him, at a time when we are encouraging the Department to take steps to address this issue, to include it. The key issue is that nothing can be provided for in the strategy because the Department has no census figures in this area. It might be helpful to the committee to prompt it to do the job of work done by UCD in terms of the Travellers' health group and so on. It can then at least point to what it is doing and suggest to other European Union countries that they do something similar.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will communicate on the matter with the Department of Justice and Equality. The difficulty that arises is that this committee does not shadow that particular Department.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It might be useful to also engage on the matter with an official from the Department of Social Protection because of the nature of the overlap of responsibilities.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will start with sending letters to both Departments and will decide our next step at a future meeting. Any responses received will be forwarded to members and witnesses.

I thank the witnesses for attending.