David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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This committee will discuss hearings on the review of legislation on prostitution in Ireland. The purpose of today's meeting is to have discussions with people associated with the review of such legislation. The committee will now hear from Mr. Paul Maguire, editor of the RTE investigations unit, who is accompanied by Ms Carolyn Fisher from the RTE communications department. Also present are members of the Garda Síochána, Superintendent Fergus Healy, Detective Superintendent John McCann and Detective Inspector Gerry McGrath. The delegates are welcome and we thank them for attending today.

The format is that speakers will give opening remarks of about five minutes' duration, which will be followed by a question and answer session. Before we begin I draw the attention of all witnesses to the situation relating to privilege, which is important. Please note that you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you will give to the committee. However, if you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in regard to a particular matter, and you continue to do so, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible you should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should also be aware that under the salient rulings of the Chair members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call on Mr. Paul Maguire to make his opening statement.

Mr. Paul Maguire:

Last February RTE broadcast a "Prime Time" special programme, Profiting from Prostitution, which investigated certain aspects of prostitution in Ireland. Under normal circumstances as an investigative journalist, I would investigate a particular story, we would make the programme, broadcast it and leave it at that, making no further comment. I wish to state for the record that as a journalist I am not here to make a submission, nor am I expressing any personal opinions about current legislation or the current review of legislation being undertaken by the committee. Last year I was invited by a number of Senators and Deputies to brief them on the statistical findings from the research that was carried out in the making of the programme. Again today, in attending the hearing I am happy to brief the committee on the findings of the research, and reiterate I am not expressing any personal opinion or making a submission.

In February 2001, "Prime Time" broadcast a special report into prostitution in Ireland. The programme followed almost a year of intensive investigation and research during which we used technology to trail hundreds of women who were being moved all over Ireland on a daily basis. In order to determine the level, or what we saw as the level, of organised or forced movement of women in this country we created a database which recorded every single movement of every escort every day, as advertised on the Internet. Over a 12-month period the database indicated a high level of organisation and management behind the movement of hundreds of women every week right across the country. On average, during the period in question when we were monitoring the Internet, 438 women either moved or were moved every week.

Further analysis of the figures reveals the level of organisation behind the movement of these women. In the period in question 446 women moved from Cork to Dublin, while in the same period exactly the same number moved in the opposite direction. A further 358 women moved from Galway to Dublin, while 354 moved in the opposite direction. There was a movement of 295 women from Belfast to Dublin, while 291 moved from Dublin to Belfast. The pattern is repeated for every town and city. It was a coincidence that the figure for the number who moved from Cork to Dublin and Dublin to Cork was the exact same. The pattern shows that usually there was a difference of between five and ten in the numbers. The figures are an indication of a much bigger movement of women and the pattern is repeated across every town and city.

During the 12 month period during which we looked at this issue in advance of the programme, in excess of 8,800 profiles were advertised on websites. The daily average number of women advertised was 693. The figure varied depending on the period. Around Christmas time, the figure might go down, while during the summer it would go up. Some of the 8,800 profiles were possible duplications or represented individuals who used two or three profiles to advertise different services. The average age of the women advertised was 25.1 years. Of all escorts advertised, 19.36% were 21 years old or younger. Almost half advertised themselves as being 25 years of age or younger. Of the women, 97, or 1.1%, of the total number were advertised as being Irish, while 283, or 3.2%, were advertised as UK citizens. The vast majority, 95.69%, were advertised as foreign nationals. When we investigated further, we found that many of those advertised as foreign nationals were not, in fact, revealing their true nationality. For example, many women from poorer eastern European countries - Romania, for example - were advertising themselves as being Spanish or French. The number of women advertised as working for an agency was just 67 or about 0.76% of the total. The vast majority, 99.24%, were advertised as working for themselves as independent escorts. Our research revealed that this was completely untrue. Most of the women we interviewed or otherwise researched were working for a pimp or some kind of organiser. They were not working independently.

Another indicator of the level of organisation involved comes from the evidence we gathered on mobile phones. During the 12 month period of the investigation we found through the Internet that in excess of 7,300 mobile phone numbers were being used. More interestingly, we discovered a linkage between 5,168 of these phones. In some cases, they had multiple users at different times and there were multiple profiles. In other cases, despite being used at different ends of the country - one in Cork and one in Belfast or Dublin, for example - the mobile numbers were just two digits apart. We are told by mobile phone operators that SIM cards are sold in packs of ten with sequential numbers. Statistically, the odds of two numbers one or two digits apart appearing at different ends of the country are astronomically high. It does not make sense that two numbers from the same pack of ten SIM cards, two digits apart, are used for prostitution and one appears in Cork a couple of days later. That is just one example and the pattern is repeated across the country. That is about as much statistical information as we have available.

Mr. Fergus Healy:

I thank the Chairman and the joint committee for giving me the opportunity to address them on such an important issue. I am looking, in particular, at the ways in which legislation on prostitution could be enhanced to deal more effectively with emerging trends in the prostitution industry. While we are happy to assist the committee in whatever way we can on the operational policing aspects of the matter, it would not be appropriate to answer questions on Government policy. That would include an expression of views on any legislative model which it might be appropriate to apply in the future.

The Garda has targeted on-street prostitution, particularly following the enactment of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Bill 1993 which criminalised soliciting, importuning and loitering for the purposes of prostitution or the commission of sexual offences in public places. The legislation has reduced dramatically the number of persons engaged in on-street prostitution in the past decade. Organised prostitution - or off-street prostitution - has advanced, with the expansion of technology to the extent that the majority of the industry relies on the Internet and mobile phone technology to facilitate the smooth running of illicit operations. The faceless nature and mobility of these technologies have created difficulties for investigating gardaí.

In the past decade the Irish escort industry has become a destination of choice for working prostitutes, mainly on foot of the economic boom and the expansion of the European Union. During this time, people engaged in the prostitution industry in Ireland were earning three times the rate for those working in other European jurisdictions. This resulted in an estimated 800 female prostitutes advertising their services via the Internet on a daily basis within the jurisdiction. Prostitution services are offered and available in every county within the jurisdiction.

Criminal proceedings and conviction rates under the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993 in 2010, 2011 and 2012 are as follows. In 2010 there were 65 prosecutions, leading to 21 convictions in respect of the offence of brothel keeping; seven prosecutions for organising prostitution, resulting in three convictions; 102 prosecutions for soliciting and importuning prostitution, with 19 convictions; 21 prosecutions for loitering for the purposes of prostitution, with 12 convictions; and seven prosecutions for living off the earnings of prostitution, with one conviction. In 2011 there were 62 prosecutions for brothel keeping, with 17 convictions; three prosecutions for organising prostitution, with one conviction; 107 prosecutions for soliciting and importuning prostitution, with 19 convictions; 35 prosecutions for loitering for the purposes of prostitution, with 17 convictions; and four prosecutions for living off the earnings of prostitution, with one conviction. In 2012 there were 47 prosecutions for brothel keeping, with eight convictions; one prosecution for organising prostitution and one conviction; 46 prosecutions for soliciting and importuning prostitution, with three convictions; 16 prosecutions for loitering for the purposes of prostitution, with no conviction to date; and two prosecutions for living off the earnings of prostitution, with no conviction to date.

By its nature, prostitution affects the wider community because of the manner in which it is conducted, particularly when conducted in public places. However, the main source of advertising for prostitution is the Internet, while one-to-one contact between prostitutes and potential clients is conducted via the mobile phone network. It is suspected this may evolve to social networking sites or other communications media in the near future if it has not already happened. The Department of Justice and Equality discussion document on the future direction of prostitution issued in August 2012 seeks responses on how the criminal law on prostitution addresses the rights of communities and society generally.

Chapter 1 of that report acknowledges that prostitution has largely moved indoors since the last major review of prostitution legislation enacted in the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993. An Garda Síochána has long since held the view that two of the most vulnerable groups in society are, foremost, children and vulnerable persons, and, second, those who find themselves the victims of the prostitution trade or, as the document refers to them, sex workers.

An Garda Síochána would regard the introduction of an anonymity provision for vulnerable witnesses as greatly assisting investigations because it would curb or, at least, alleviate the fear of media exposure. A number of legislative provisions already are in place in this area - section 7 of the Criminal Law (Rape) Act 1981 and section 11 of the Criminal Justice (Human Trafficking) Act 2008. These provide reassurance that witnesses would not suffer further stress or trauma or exposure to the media in any subsequent prosecution which might be initiated.

Throughout the past decade the level of prostitution has significantly increased within the jurisdiction. Garda operations have been conducted, for example, Operation Gladiator and Operation Quest, to investigate the prostitution industry specifically within the Dublin region. Both operations were conducted at different times within the past decade. An analysis of them concluded that mobile telecommunications advances had contributed significantly to the expansion of the industry. Brothels and escort agencies advertise their services on numerous sites and provide their contact details, usually mobile phone numbers through these sites. On contacting these numbers a person can arrange a call-out service to a nominated address or, alternatively, receive directions to a specified address. These facts are supported by operational experience, as well as on foot of evidence from numerous witnesses who have provided statements in Garda investigations.

To highlight the significance of mobile telecommunications within the industry it is proposed to detail briefly an investigation which was conducted into prostitution. A surveillance operation was put in place in respect of a brothel operating in Dublin in which there were upwards of 16 working prostitutes. During the course of the surveillance operation several witness statements were taken from patrons who had just exited the brothel. All those interviewed stated they had rang a mobile phone number and received directions to the brothel. Following the surveillance operation, the premises was searched. A number of follow-up searches were carried out, including a search of a particular apartment which had been identified as a call centre. At this apartment 35 mobile phones were recovered, 27 of which were pre-paid and the phones were being used exclusively for the purposes of organising habitual prostitution. Extensive documentation supporting this fact was also recovered. The phones corresponded to a number listed on websites and some of them also corresponded to numbers given in statements by clients. Further investigation revealed 14 of the 27 pre-paid phones had been reactivated by the user. The same numbers were again used for the purposes of organising habitual prostitution. The investigating gardaí soon came to realise that the phones were the lifeline of the particular prostitution enterprise and very valuable assets to the perpetrators of such crime. Some of the numbers have over the period of time been used to establish a cohort of steady clientele. Without these phones the majority of brothels would cease to function.

The organisers of prostitution have historically operated within the jurisdiction in the belief An Garda Síochána would sporadically target the industry. A noticeable change in the industry has occurred in the past two to three years with an increase in the number of foreign nationals associated with the running of the prostitution business in the jurisdiction. Some of these individuals are associated with organised crime groups both in the jurisdiction and their countries of origin. It is highly probable that a large percentage of the moneys generated from the industry is being redeployed into organised crime groups, domestically and internationally.

An Garda Síochána looks forward to co-operating with the committee and the Department of Justice and Equality in identifying ways to enhance the legislation dealing with the prostitution industry in Ireland.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I open the floor to any member or witness who wishes to ask questions.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Maguire's statistics were staggering. I watched the programme in 2011 and commend the very professional way in which he and his team conducted it. Both he and the superintendent spoke about mobile phones. One can walk into a mobile phone shop and buy a SIM card very easily. There is no identification required, whereas abroad, in some jurisdictions, when one buys a pre-paid phone or a SIM card for a pre-paid phone, one is required to show one's passport. The shop is required to make a photocopy of the passport which ensures a record is kept of the phone sold. Difficult as it might be, every mobile phone should be shut down and people should have a period within which to register. There should be a national database of mobile phones, not just to deal with prostitution but also to deal with crime in general. What is Mr. Maguire's view?

Mr. Paul Maguire:

We found that it was easy to purchase a mobile phone. Even in the job we do we need to have different SIM cards and it depends on where one goes. One can go to different branches of a service provider or different providers and on each occasion one may or may not be asked for identification to purchase a SIM card or mobile phone. I am not here to comment on legislation, but to judge from what the superintendent said, mobile phones play a huge part in the operation of prostitution and other forms of crime. We put in place a simple system which recorded all phone numbers. We then analysed them and when we watched the differences between the numbers, we could, in some cases, identify eight out of ten sequential numbers which were being used in different patterns. If there was a similar record, it might go some way towards controlling the problem.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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Is there evidence that could be collated for an investigation?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Would anyone like to comment on that point?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

The phones being used within the industry are pre-paid. There is no provision to register the details of the purchaser of such phones. As I outlined in respect of the issues around the other forms of crime, this is a matter of concern. We must, however, work within the legislation as provided and only bill pay phone users are required to register. Until the legislation changes, our hands are tied.

Katherine Zappone (Independent)
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I have two questions for Mr. Maguire whose evidence is very helpful. We have heard also from others that it is impossible to put a figure on the number of women involved in prostitution in Ireland on a daily basis. In the light of Mr. Maguire's research, what is his response to this?

Mr. Paul Maguire:

It is extremely difficult to put a figure on it. One needs to differentiate between a profile and an image of a particular individual posted on a website. In many cases, it bears no resemblance to the reality of the individual. Therefore, one needs to differentiate between physical bodies, people who are available for sex and profiles. It appears that most of the women involved have at least two profiles and alternate between them, depending on the area they are in and the services they offer.

During the early part of our research we noticed that the numbers given to each profile were rising sequentially and just before the programme was aired, the figure was up to 21,000 profiles on one website. That does not mean there were 21,000 people involved with the website, but it goes to show that people can create a number of profiles. We know for a fact from some of the women to whom we spoke could have had four profiles each. It is very difficult to be definitive. What is certain is that somewhere between 500 and 700 women are available every day; however, the superintendent thinks the figures could be up to 800, which may be accurate as we have not been monitoring the website for a while.

Katherine Zappone (Independent)
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I thank Mr. Maguire for that information as the figures corroborate the findings of other research. Mr. Maguire created a database of the movements of people because he was able to witness them, as distinct from monitoring the profiles. There is a question mark against the number of people relative to the number of profiles.

Mr. Paul Maguire:

I do not want to go into specifics, as it would reveal how we do certain things. We cannot do so for operational reasons.

Katherine Zappone (Independent)
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Of course.

Mr. Paul Maguire:

There are markers one can monitor. We spent 24 hours a day seven days a week for almost one year monitoring the website and there are certain markers by which one can identify certain individuals who have certain characteristics in profiles and it is then one gets to recognise the fact that a profile is associated with others. Delving into the figures, one can see that individual profiles actually belong to one person and can establish that three profiles belong to one person and discover similarities in the different operations. One then knows there are women who might have multiple profiles, but there is more than one woman involved in this operation. One then monitors movements around the country and where a profile comes up. It is quite complicated, but one can drill to get down to the information

Katherine Zappone (Independent)
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It sounds like Mr. Maguire has developed very sophisticated research methodology and I thank him for sharing it with us. My next question is addressed both to him and Superintendent Healy. Is either gentleman able to comment on approximately how many women involved in prostitution are free to leave of their own volition?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

The nature of the industry is such that it involves moving transient people around the country. Our experience is that once they become involved in the lifestyle associated with the industry, it is quite difficult to leave it. People become involved for a variety of reasons. There are significant financial gains for everybody concerned. In one sense, the lifestyle might be appealing from a financial perspective, but it is a sinister world in which they operate and from our experience it can be very difficult to leave it.

Mr. Paul Maguire:

We talked to a number of the women involved in the industry who told us that passports and official identification documents had been taken from them. As a consequence, they were not free to leave the country. In one group on which we focused heavily, they appeared to have very little free time in which they were not under the management of somebody else. If they were not being moved at 3 a.m., somebody was sitting in an apartment watching and managing them. They had very little freedom.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I welcome Mr. Maguire and Superintendent Healy. I have two questions for Mr. Maguire arising from the figures included in his report. He mentioned that 446 women prostitutes had moved from Cork to Dublin to become involved in the sex industry. That indicates a major problem. Based on his experience, does Mr. Maguire think the position is getting worse? Has the television programme and-or the report had an impact on the broader political issue? A number of former prostitutes have told us that publicity often helps them to deal with the particular issue and drives people away. Second, did he get a deeper insight into the lives of those women directly involved in the trade? Were they involved in it for the money? Did they have major personal problems or severe mental health issues? Had they been exploited as children?

Mr. Paul Maguire:

Let me clarify the position. On the 436 women who moved from Cork to Dublin and vice versa, that was over the period of our research. It was the total number who moved over an eight month period.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I thought it was a weekly occurrence.

Mr. Paul Maguire:

On average, we found that 500 to 600 women - the figure varied from week to week - would move from one location to another across the country. We then looked at all of the movements over a much longer period to see if there was an element of organisation within these movements. It was amazing to see that a number used in one town would be used in another and that almost a similar number would move in the reverse direction. Some of the women concerned might have had two or three profiles such that when they moved they took their profiles with them. The number could have been slightly smaller, but the fact is that there were significant similarities in the move from A to B and B to A in any instance across any town or city. In the immediate aftermath of the showing of the television programme the number of individual profiles advertised on the Internet actually reduced, but in advance of today's meeting we revisited the website for a couple of days and the number is higher now; it is possibly closer to the number the superintendent quoted - 800 profiles which are advertised on a daily basis.

Deputy Finian McGrath asked if I had spoken to any of the women involved. We spoke to a large number of women who were involved in prostitution at different stages, some of whom had only recently become involved. Some had been involved for a number of years, while others had just got out of it. It depends very much on to whom one is speaking. If one speaks to foreign nationals, I would say they were duped into it. One case that comes to mind is that of a person who thought she was coming to Ireland to work as a hairdresser, but when she and others arrived here, their papers were taken from them and they were put into an apartment on the afternoon of their arrival and told it was prostitution. In other cases, Irish nationals were forced into prostitution. I know that following the programme people commented on social media sites and women said they had got involved in prostitution of their own free will, were enjoying it and making money out of it.

I spent over one year working on this issue and I could not find somebody who would say that to us.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Superintendent Healy mentioned a series of dates on which 65 brothel keepers were charged. What is the profile of those charged as brothel keepers? Would these people have been connected with criminal gangs or would they have been "respectable middle class" people who were running a brothel as an income raising exercise?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

As I said in the presentation, the evidence is that this is a sophisticated organised industry that is being managed by those who would be considered as sophisticated individuals. The evidence is that people from different backgrounds get involved in managing brothels but what they have in common is that they are very sophisticated individuals and as such have been amenable before the courts to a certain degree. There is evidence that some people involved in organised crime have been engaged in this industry.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Are there figures on the number of brothels operating in Dublin and nationally? Is that too difficult to assess because it is under the radar?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

We have people who manage and monitor the situation at national level but for operational reasons we would not be in a position to disclose that information.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Superintendent Healy mentioned that the impression from those who work in the sex trade industry is that the gardaí sporadically charge the industry. Is that the reality or is there a regular focus kept on the issue? As far as I am concerned, this is a situation in which women are exploited and abused. In spite of the major problems with policing, do the gardaí at senior level take the issue of prostitution seriously? The impression is that this issue turns up every now and again as a story. We need to focus on the sex industry because of the very violent criminal elements involved in the background.

Mr. Fergus Healy:

Let me reassure the Deputy that prostitution is taken very seriously at the most senior levels of the organisation. We have a sophisticated structure to deal with these matters at local and national level. The Commissioner actively monitors the activities of these units in his management meetings through his senior management staff. I am quite satisfied we are dealing with the matter.

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
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I have two questions for Mr. Maguire. I congratulate Paul Maguire on his programme. We sometimes criticise our national broadcasting service but this is a great example of public service broadcasting at its best. I know I am biased.

During our session in private before this meeting we heard from former prostitutes and we asked them how much a prostitute might earn on a particular night and how much a pimp would earn on top of that. Some figures were mentioned in Mr. Maguire's documentary programme. Will he give us his sense, as an investigative journalist, of the amounts of money we are talking about in regards to this so called 'industry'?

Mr. Paul Maguire:

We managed to find some documentation which related to the management of one particular group, which we believed was using up to 15 to 16 women and was moving them around four or five different locations. Those women were advertising a range of services, depending on the location and the time of year, with 30 minute sessions ranging from €60 to €100. When we got our hands on the documentation related to the individual who we believed was running that operation, it showed over a period that this particular individual had accumulated €100,000 from the earnings of the women that he was operating.

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
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Was that for a year?

Mr. Paul Maguire:

No, it was for less than a year. I cannot remember the length of time just off the top of my head, I think the figures might have been for a period of between six to eight months. I know it was definitely less than a year but it was in excess of €100,000 for the period.

The women who spoke to us would tell that in some cases they would get half of the money they took in, but one particular individual to whom we spoke was paid less than €20 a day and she had to buy her own condoms and toiletries. In other cases, people were charged excessive rent for the use of what seemed to be a bed in one room.

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
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Did Mr. Maguire see a pattern in the age that people started in prostitution? Mr. Maguire mentioned the age of 25 years. He may not be able to back up the information with evidence but did he have a sense that a significant number of young under age women were involved in prostitution?

Mr. Paul Maguire:

It is very difficult to answer that question, because we did not go looking for birth certificates. It would appear that the demand was for younger women. We set up a researcher with a profile to act as a prostitute on the website and most of the recorded calls from what were supposed to be potential clients were looking for people who were very young. One individual who we came across down the country caused us such concern that we reported the situation to the authorities. She appeared to be very young and younger than what she was advertised on the website. She appeared to be very much under the influence of something, and I do not know what it was. It would appear that the demand is for younger people.

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
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I thank Mr. Maguire for his responses. I will now address questions to Superintendent Healy

I am looking at the statistics provided by Superintendent Healy on those living off the earnings of prostitutes. The figures for 2010 show that proceedings commenced in seven cases, with one conviction; in 2011 proceedings were taken in four cases with one conviction; and in 2012 there were two cases but so far there has been no conviction. Is it the case the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993 needs to be enhanced and-or supported further with the movement of prostitution indoors, or are there other reasons that the number of proceedings are not as high as they might be?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

The provision in section 10 of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993 and the definition of that provision is quite clear. The onus is to prove the person involved in this act was aiding and abetting as well as knowingly living off the earnings of prostitution. Hence the case the Garda Síochána present must meet a threshold before the DPP makes a decision with regard to whether a prosecution should be initiated and as members can see the level of evidence that needs to be gathered is quite stringent. Perhaps that might account for the low level of prosecutions in this area but the sophisticated nature of the proof that is required to deal with it can add to the situation.

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
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We have heard anecdotal evidence of the connection between prostitution and organised crime. Would Superintendent Healy concur with that?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

The nature of organised crime is that people will work in an area where there is money to be made and prostitution is one of those industries. This is also the case in other areas such as fuel smuggling and the illicit tobacco and alcohol trades. There are sophisticated organisations working in many areas in order to make money. Prostitution is no different; it is a global problem which is not unique to Ireland.

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
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Would it be fair to say that significant money in cash changes hands in this industry in Ireland? Is it not big business in Ireland?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

Substantial sums of money are made through the prostitution industry. The Criminal Assets Bureau is actively involved in pursuing these people who are making substantial sums of money. It is a global issue and is not unique to Ireland.

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
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Can the Criminal Assets Bureau put a figure on it? Mr. Maguire mentioned a figure of €100,000 in less than a year. What would be the macro-figure?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

I will not name a figure but I can say it is definitely in millions.

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
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There is close co-operation between the Garda Síochána in Store Street and Ruhama. What co-operation exists between the Garda and voluntary groups supporting women in prostitution or those trying to exit prostitution? Over the past year has there been a similarity in age, ethnicity or nationality between the women in prostitution?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

We work closely in co-operation with Ruhama and the agencies involved in this area. We are closely involved with Ruhama in a training programme. Our front-line members are trained to create an awareness among members who encounter these problems on a daily basis. I can say that the working relationship with Ruhama and other agencies in the health area in particular are very proactive from the point of view of the Garda Síochána. In answer to the question as to the age pattern of young women in prostitution, there is no doubt that the age is an issue and this has been outlined to the committee on previous occasions. We have no evidence to indicate that minors have been involved in this activity. Young adult women are involved.

Mr. John McCann:

They are sometimes advertised as children on the Internet. They put themselves forward as children. However, when we carry out investigations we do not discover children.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have a question for Mr. Paul Maguire. He touched on the issue in his previous contribution. He stated he was so concerned about one individual that he made a report to the authorities. How many cases were of such concern that he felt obliged to report them to the authorities as soon as possible? Is it known what happened to some of the women who were being trailed by the programme? Were they rescued from the situations or did they leave the industry? The programme-makers were following people over a lengthy period of time. They would have observed the natural progression of people coming into the business and leaving it. I ask Mr. Maguire to give an indication of how those who managed to escape the industry managed to do so.

Mr. Paul Maguire:

We were concerned in a number of instances. During the course of making the programme we were in communication with Ruhama on a very regular basis. When anything happened which caused us concern we spoke to Ruhama who in turn were in touch with the Garda Síochána.

On the question about people getting out of prostitution, on a number of occasions individuals to whom we spoke told us about getting in touch with gardaí. It must be understood that the individuals perceive they are under the control of others. I know from our communications with Ruhama that they work very closely with the gardaí. On a regular basis people who are found working as prostitutes in brothels are offered the opportunity to get out of the business. They are offered services with Ruhama but they do not take up the offer. The Garda Síochána would be better placed to explain that process to the committee. In many cases the people we spoke to feel incarcerated and trapped. They feel they cannot get out. They are afraid. In one case, we spoke to a person whose family in eastern Europe was threatened if she did not work in this particular area. From talking to the women I imagine it is not easy to escape from the life.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I ask if Superintendent Healy could give details about persons who have exited the industry.

Mr. Fergus Healy:

I will not discuss specific issues. There is evidence to suggest that people have left the industry with the co-operation of Ruhama and the Garda. The services provided by Ruhama are a great support. When we deal with incidents at 4 a.m. Ruhama is available to come to our assistance which in itself is a very valuable facility. I compliment the work of Ruhama and its co-operation with us in this area.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their attendance. Mr. Maguire referred to the number of people who are being moved around on a weekly basis. How is such a large number of people being moved around? Are they being transported by car? It is a six-hour round trip journey with, perhaps, three in a car.

Mr. Paul Maguire:

I can only speak about the individuals we focused on in the programme. There was one very organised group along with some individuals. The group consisted of up to 15 people and up to 16 or 17 on some occasions. They were being moved four or five in a car. Every week the individual organising these women and moving them from location to location would start at 2.30 a.m. He would drive from Dublin city to Athlone, from Athlone to Ennis, from Ennis to Dundalk and back to Dublin. On one occasion this individual covered somewhere in the region of 1,200 km in a 22-hour period. That was a regular occurrence every week. Some of the women to whom we spoke were told they were required to move from place to place and to purchase their own train ticket out of the money earned from selling themselves. In many cases we found that people were being moved as opposed to moving themselves. In that way those organising the moving of the women had more control over the women. Deputy O'Brien asked about those who get out of the business. A person travelling by train may have an opportunity to escape if that was what she wanted to do but if she is being moved by car I imagine there is more control over the individual and fewer opportunities for escape.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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What type of properties do they use?

Mr. Paul Maguire:

Rented apartments in most cases. We featured one case in the programme in which the landlord was unaware of such activities until he received complaints from his neighbours.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Superintendent Healy said it is a very sinister trade. Is it dangerous for the women involved? Has Superintendent Healy encountered cases with boys involved?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

It is a sinister industry and control is a big part of it. The way that control is fulfilled can manifest itself in various formats. It is a dominating type of industry and there are certain people who control it. There are males involved in this industry as well. The websites cater for all tastes and types.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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What is the profile of the users?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

They come from many different backgrounds. There is no one category of individual who would use these websites or services. In the main, it is males who avail of the services. That has been the case from time immemorial. It is not going to change because technology has made it more difficult to police.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Many people are trying to draw the distinction between prostitution and trafficking. Does Superintendent Healy believe there is a direct link between the two?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

For operational reasons, I do not want to get into that area. Recently, we investigated a case where this has come to the fore.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Is Superintendent Healy's unit part of the anti-trafficking unit or separate but works together?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

We work closely. We have our own unit in the Garda National Immigration Bureau, GNIB.

Mr. Paul Maguire:

From our research, we noted forced movement of people. The first image that pops into people's mind when one mentions trafficking is the 40 ft. container in Rosslare Harbour with a load of individuals hidden in it. In the programme, we tried to show there needs to be a different definition of “trafficking” in the case of prostitution. There was forced movement of women from location to location with them having little control over it. We would suggest that is a form of trafficking.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Has Superintendent Healy encountered women who are autonomous, do their work and keep all the money they earn?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

There are exceptional cases but in the main, as described heretofore, a certain portion of the money earned is provided to the people who supply clients in the industry. Percentages vary, however.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Superintendent Healy said this area is worth millions of euro. From his work on it, will Mr. Maguire put a figure on it?

Mr. Paul Maguire:

No, we did not do a calculation on that. Anecdotally, most of the people we spoke to were talking about seeing six clients on a slow day and 12 to 15 on a busy day. We set up a researcher with a profile on the website. Over five days, she received 350 calls, all of whom wanted to meet her. That is 70 calls a day. We pretended we were moving the researcher from one location to another. When the profile was updated to reflect the new location, we received a massive number of calls in minutes.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Is it an extraordinarily lucrative activity?

Mr. Paul Maguire:

Yes, when one does the maths.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Superintendent Healy stated that in 2010 there were 65 proceedings commenced for keeping a brothel with 21 convictions. What is the status of the remaining 44 proceedings?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

Given the nationality of some of those involved, they may leave the jurisdiction. Subsequently, a warrant may be issued for them and the case goes into limbo until such time that the person is apprehended. There are various reasons why we have this attrition rate. It is mainly due to the transient nature of the industry and those in it.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Garda Commissioner attended the committee recently and he spoke about a recent operation in Limerick in which a number of men were charged for soliciting using undercover officers. Is it easier to police this form of prostitution?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

Whatever model is put in place by the Legislature, it is easier to convict off-street prostitution while it is difficult to detect what happens in an apartment. The 1993 legislation did deal with the problem. Off-street prostitution has become a lot more sophisticated and makes it much more difficult to detect.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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With so much money involved, we are pleased the Criminal Assets Bureau, CAB, is involved.

Did sexually transmitted diseases or HIV feature in the RTE's research?

Mr. Paul Maguire:

No, we did not have an opportunity to go into that area. We did talk to some individuals who worked in it but we were not able to progress that section of the programme.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Is there a breakdown of the nationalities of those involved?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

They are mainly eastern European, non-Irish nationals working in the jurisdiction and some from China.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I can understand EU citizens being involved but not how Chinese citizens as they need visas to enter the country.

Mr. Fergus Healy:

People do slip under the net and come into jurisdiction for one reason but may be operating under another.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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What is the situation with regard to intercepting Internet traffic from foreign websites?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

The difficulty with a lot of these websites is that they are hosted outside EU jurisdictions, mainly in America and, particularly, Florida. They are difficult to intercept. Global operations have been put in place by Interpol to tackle these and we work closely with the agency on them.

Mr. John McCann:

One could have the owners of the website living in one jurisdiction, the site being hosted in another while advertising in this jurisdiction.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Has the Garda delegation encountered or come across people involved in the industry who were addicted or dysfunctional? What is their background?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

People get into industry for various reasons. There is no doubt that there are people who have addiction issues. The main focus of our policing attention is not really in that area, it is the criminal aspect of prostitution and the policing of it. We provide support services to people with addiction issues. We refer them to other agencies that can help them. Our interest is in the victim and supporting the victim in as many ways as we can. Services are available and we refer people to those services.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I wish to ask one final question although I am probably driving the Chairman mad. The more one discusses the issue, the more things come to mind. The question is for Mr. Maguire and Mr. Healy and it relates to public awareness and education for young people. Is there an opportunity for us to educate young people about this trade? If they understood that what they are doing is engaging with someone who may be trafficked or who is under coercion, would they be less likely to do something like that? Many people buy into the myth perpetuated by the media and the film business and so on. They have this notion that it is fine and dandy and that people are autonomous and that this is their choice. Is public awareness something the delegations would agree could be of benefit?

Mr. Fergus Healy:

Any sort of education, in whatever form it is presented, can be of assistance from a preventative point of view. The attraction for many people is that they may be living in a country or economy where the rate of pay or earnings is low. Then they come to an economy where the earnings are greater such that they can earn more in one day than in one week or two weeks in the jurisdiction where they came from. The attraction is great from that perspective. How do we educate people in this area? It might require a pan-European response to really deal with the problem at grass roots level.

Mr. Paul Maguire:

We discovered one interesting thing in the course of our research. Deputy Cororan Kennedy asked about the age profile of individuals who were using the women for services. I was rather surprised on a personal level by the large percentage of what I would consider to be younger people using the services. It was quite amazing. We saw this where we filmed outside apartments in which women were working and with the telephone calls that our researcher received as well. I believe there was rather a high percentage of younger people, that is people aged 30 years or less, who were using the services.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Thank you all for coming in today to help us with this. This is our third session and we have at least one more to go before we submit our report to the Minister. I wish to apologise to Detective Garda Sean Walsh because I neglected to welcome him earlier. You are very welcome. Your name was not on the list before me and I did not have the details. We have seen the publication of the report on the Magdalen laundries this week but I am almost speechless from what I have heard and seen so far. Thank you very much for coming in.