Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Ms Pauline McCabe and Mr. George Richardson to the committee. I will make full introductions following a minute's silence as requested by the committee members to mark the sad passing of Detective Garda Adrian Donohoe.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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Ms Pauline McCabe is the Northern Ireland Prisoner Ombudsman and will talk to the committee about that role and its context today. She will also discuss the rights of prisoners in Northern Ireland and the reform process within prisons there. I advise members that the Prisoner Ombudsman is fully independent of the Northern Ireland Prison Service and her task is to carry out investigations arising from prisoner complaints to her office. The independence and impartiality of her office is paramount to its effective functioning. As such, Ms McCabe is not in a position to comment on specific individual cases. I ask members to bear that in mind in their questions. I am also aware that the ombudsman has had some contacts with the Prison Service here in the South and I would welcome hearing her ideas on cross-Border co-operation and issues of shared concern for both jurisdictions.

Before I call on Ms McCabe to make her presentation, I advise her and Mr. George Richardson, director of operations of the Northern Ireland Prisoner Ombudsman, that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of utterances at this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease to make remarks on a particular matter but continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter to only a qualified privilege in respect of their remarks. They are directed that only comments and evidence related directly to the subject matter of this meeting are to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call on Ms McCabe to make her presentation. The committee is very appreciative of the fact that she has given her time to attend. From reading background information, I understand that Ms McCabe is involved in very sensitive work. We appreciate that. Her organisation is looking forward to having more statutory functions in the next year. We look forward to her analysis in that regard.

Ms Pauline McCabe:

Thank you. I have, as asked, prepared an overview. Having presented it, I will be very happy to answer detailed questions. I thought it would be helpful and relevant to describe the role of the Prisoner Ombudsman and to consider certain issues regarding the context in which I do my job. The contextual issues are very relevant to the question on which the committee has expressed an interest. The office of the Northern Ireland Prisoner Ombudsman was established in February 2005 to help to manage recognised tensions in prisons by ensuring that prisoners with problems or concerns had an appropriate and effective way to deal with them. It follows that in order to be effective, it is vital that there is full confidence in the independence and integrity of my office. The ombudsman role is, therefore, fully independent of the prison service. It is important to emphasise that the Prisoner Ombudsman is not a prisoner advocacy service. Our function is to carry out independent, fair and impartial investigations and to make recommendations for change where appropriate.

The office carries out two types of investigation, the first being the investigation of eligible prisoner complaints. In order for a complaint to be eligible for consideration by the ombudsman, it must first have been considered through the prison service's internal complaints process. The complaints we consider cover a wide range of areas, many with underpinning human rights obligations. These can include, inter alia, alleged assaults, bullying and discrimination complaints, regime issues, the prisoner privilege scheme, the use of control and restraint processes, cell-sharing arrangements, the use of spars in safer cells, the conduct of adjudications and the application of punishments. We are also involved in issues related to the investigation of serious incidents and prisoner transport.

Over the last five years, we have taken a number of steps to ensure the office provides an accessible and effective service and to build confidence in our independence and the integrity of our investigations. I can describe those steps in more detail if members are interested. Last year, the office received 373 eligible complaints from across the prison estate, which level of demand has continued this year.

It is worth noting that this has been achieved in circumstances in which the office still has not been placed on a statutory footing, although the present Minister of Justice has given a firm commitment to take this forward now.

The Prisoner Ombudsman also investigates all deaths in prison custody. These investigations help the State achieve its investigative obligation arising under Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights by ensuring that, as far as possible, the full facts are brought to light and any lessons from a death are learned. The aims of the investigation are to establish the circumstances of the death, to examine whether any change in operational methods, policy and practice or management arrangements would help prevent recurrence of such a serious incident, to inform the Coroner's inquest and to address any concerns of the bereaved family. In the past five years my office has completed and reported on 24 death-in-custody investigations and we are currently investigating a further seven deaths and also carrying out our first near-death investigation. Clearly, many issues connected to the care and protection of vulnerable prisoners and particularly those at risk of self-harm or suicide are at the heart of these investigations. My staff are regularly in and out of Northern Ireland prisons and have full access to information required in connection with our investigations. There is no doubt that this, along with the publication of our death-in-custody investigation reports at an early stage, makes a significant contribution to bringing openness and transparency to the relatively closed world of prisons. There is therefore significant media interest in our work, and obviously the way we do our work is relevant to the protection of human rights.

Areas of concern identified by Prisoner Ombudsman investigations and related recommendations may have a significant impact on the rights and treatment of prisoners in different situations and circumstances. Well over 90% of all Prisoner Ombudsman recommendations are now fully accepted and a recent example of the impact they can have is the root and branch reform of the issue and supervision of prisoner medication which is currently under way.

The context in which we do our job has significant implications, not only for how we operate but also for the challenge of prison reform in Northern Ireland. The experience of the conflict, in which 29 prison officers were killed and many others seriously injured - sadly, that figure becomes 30 when we include the tragic death of Officer David Black last year - has significantly shaped current service delivery in Northern Ireland prisons. During the conflict the function of the prison service was primarily security-focused, with prison staff reluctant to engage with prisoners in any meaningful way. It is a legacy of the conflict that the emphasis over the years remained on security and that the attitude and approach of staff did not adapt to the needs of a changing prison population. As a result, the culture and approach to management, work practices and industrial relations reflect a different time. The ratio of prison staff to prisoners in Northern Ireland is more than double that in England and Wales.

In April 1998 the Good Friday Agreement, as the committee is well aware, provided for fundamental reform of the substantially Protestant police service in order to build cross-community confidence in policing. It was my privilege to be a member of the first policing board in Northern Ireland. The peace agreement did not, however, provide for reform of the prison service. There is no doubt that over the years the prison service has made efforts to try to deliver a more humane prisoner-focused regime, but the returns on investment in terms of the effort made, in the absence of a serious overarching commitment and plan, have been limited. It is only now, following the devolution of criminal justice matters to Northern Ireland, that serious efforts are being made to take forward prison reform. At the heart of those efforts is the belief that while security is and always will be an important function of prisons, the need to deliver a purposeful regime that achieves real change in offending behaviour is equally important. It is worth noting also that at the time of the Hillsborough Agreement the actual cost of keeping someone in prison in Northern Ireland was £90,000 per prisoner per year.

The second area of context that fundamentally affects the way we do our job and the challenge of reform is the health and social characteristics of the 1,800-plus prisoner population. In the general population 2% of children are excluded from school, but 49% of male and 33% of female prisoners were excluded from school. In Northern Ireland there is 6.5% unemployment, but more than 70% of prisoners are unemployed at the time of committal. In the general population 5% of men and 2% of women suffer from two or more mental disorders, but 72% of male and 70% of female prisoners are estimated to suffer from two or more mental disorders, while 62% of prisoners are estimated to have a personality disorder. In the general population around 13% of men will have used drugs in the past year, but 66% of men in prison are likely to have done so. Similar statistics relating to literacy and numeracy levels, qualifications, prisoners taken into care as children and so on tell much the same story. It is worth noting that one-third of all committals in Northern Ireland and half of all committals of women are for non-payment of fines. It costs well over £3,000 to process each fine defaulter through the system for their average four-day stay. The human face of these statistics took me by surprise when I became Prisoner Ombudsman, particularly when dealing with young offenders and when investigating deaths in prison custody.

Following the Hillsborough Agreement, a comprehensive review of the Northern Ireland Prison Service was carried out by a team under the chairmanship of Anne Owers. The resulting report identified significant and long-lasting problems in Northern Ireland and called for a programme of change and a transformation-of-culture approach to working practices. It emphasised that incremental improvements are not enough and stated that there needs to be a determined cross-party approach to driving through the whole package of change. It is fair to say, not least because of the financial imperative, that there is now a general acceptance in Northern Ireland of the need for prison reform, and the Minister for Justice is wholeheartedly committed to delivering this. The Owers review did not, however, result in the production of a Patton-style implementation plan and has not enjoyed the resourcing and financial investment that underpinned policing reform, not least because its specific goal is to reduce substantially the cost of the prison service. The absence of the early production of a coherent, joined-up plan with key activities properly sequenced has limited the progress made to date and the return on the money that has been invested in kick-starting reform. Nevertheless, severance and recruitment programmes are well under way. A new, more fit-for-purpose operating model and shift patterns have been agreed but are not yet fully implemented. Additionally, a change team with responsibility for producing a forward plan is now in place.

Some progress has been made towards cultural change and the emphasis of the new staff training programme is on positive engagement and problem solving. A key objective is to achieve a critical mass of staff in each prison who are committed to the delivery of a rehabilitative regime. The new director general is determined to modernise the service and has achieved agreement to make some significant new appointments. These are welcome developments, but the full impact has yet to be felt on the ground and prisoner lock-downs continue to be a problem right across the prison estate. High staff sickness absence levels have done nothing to mitigate these problems. There is much still to do and a number of factors are significantly affecting the quality of the regime offered to prisoners. Crucially, the progress of the work required under the prison reform programme to deliver adequate and consistent purposeful rehabilitative activity for prisoners is well behind what is required. This includes the provision of education and skills training, work experience, behavioural change programmes, exercise and leisure activities and a wide range of other activities and interventions that can help motivate prisoners to change offending behaviour and prepare for release. There are far too many prisoners with not enough to do. This has an impact on vulnerability, drug and medicine abuse and prison safety, and undermines their capacity for rehabilitation. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that the prison population is increasing.

The prison review team has emphasised the need to take urgent action to implement alternatives to custody for fine defaulters and those receiving short sentences for non-violent crimes. It has also emphasised the need to address the greater delays in the criminal justice system than those experienced in England, Wales and here, and such delays impact substantially on the difficulty in providing a quality regime. This problem is particularly acute at Maghaberry Prison where at any one time up to 55% of the prisoners are on remand. The total percentage of the remand population is significantly lower than in England, Wales and Scotland. I understand that is the position here as well. It is our view that the programmes of work examining these issues must be addressed with much greater urgency than has been shown up to now.

There is growing political and community support for the delivery of an efficient and cost-effective prison service. The prison review team has provided a comprehensive blueprint for the change required. The commitment at the top of the prison service and the South Eastern Health and Social Care Trust to the delivery of the necessary changes is not in doubt. Some steps have been taken to put some important building blocks in place and this is having some positive impact on the treatment of prisoners. There is, however, a need for a fully joined-up implementation plan for the future and there is also an urgent need to address several areas where a lack of progress to date could seriously undermine the potential of the change programme.

As a result of action taken by the Northern Ireland Minister for Justice, there are now no under 18s in our prisons. This was something for which we and others have lobbied hard and it is a welcome development. I would be happy to assist with any questions.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Ms McCabe, for that comprehensive analysis. Some Members are under pressure of time. With the agreement of the committee, people can indicate if they are under pressure. I realise there is another event on this morning. I welcome the members of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade in attendance today. I call Deputy Daly.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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I was here to listen but I have to go now.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the deputation. Perhaps they could clarify one or two points. If a prisoner has a difficulty, what has the Northern Ireland Prisoner Ombudsman put in place in order that he can contact the office directly? Many people, because of reading and writing issues, may be afraid to go through the process. Is there an open door for them to contact the office immediately?

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I will take questions in groups of two. The protocol is for members to go first.

Mr. Paul Maskey, MP:

I thank Ms McCabe for her presentation. Ms McCabe referred to the Anne Owers report, the problem of bringing about change and the need for a cross-party approach to make real change. Does the Prisoner Ombudsman believe it has been rigorous enough to implement the report and some of the associated issues? Could more be done with regard to the report? Major changes must take place, but I believe the process must be rigorous and driven hard to ensure the changes materialise. Does the Prisoner Ombudsman believe this is the case at present?

Ms Pauline McCabe:

I will take the first question first, relating to what is in place to contact the office. The concern Deputy Feighan expressed is one that I shared when I took up office because of the requirement for prisoners who were contacting the Prisoner Ombudsman to write registering any complaint. We have completely changed that arrangement. Now in the case of contacting the Prisoner Ombudsman, prisoners may use the telephone on their landings to make a freefone telephone call to the office. We receive the call in the office and take details of the complaint. We have further put arrangements in place such that we immediately access the prison service internal complaints process in order that we can tell the prisoner there and then on the telephone whether the complaint is eligible. If it is not eligible we can give the prisoner advice and support and encourage him to do whatever he needs to do to address the complaint internally for it to become eligible. Then, having confirmed that it is eligible, we can take steps to give it to an investigator in order that an investigation can commence.

If there is a prisoner for whom English is not his first language, we have an arrangement in place whereby it will be communicated to him in his own language. Then he can simply ring us and give the name of his country and we will immediately put him in conversation with an interpreter and they can tell us immediately about the complaint they wish to register. At that stage we will go into the system and inform them immediately whether it is eligible. Future communications with such prisoners will be in their own languages and, if necessary, our staff will take out interpreters.

There is one weakness in the system. Before prisoners can bring a complaint to us they must take it through the internal complaints process. That process was reviewed some years ago because it was widely recognised that it was not serving the intended purpose. We welcome the changes that were made. For example, the process was reduced from a three-step process to a two-step process. There was a built-in provision to ensure that once a prisoner had made a complaint, someone had to discuss it with him. Previously we found many examples of where a prisoner complained but no one discussed the complaint with him. The main thing it did not achieve - we have constantly registered the fact that we believe it is undesirable - was to address the fact that they still require the internal complaints to be made in writing. If they are struggling, we encourage prisoners to avail of the services of the Independent Monitoring Board, IMB, to assist them, where necessary. There are some instances where a trusted member of staff would be able to help, but we would rather have a system whereby prisoners who cannot write can complain without having to do so.

The second question related to how vigorously the Anne Owers report is being implemented. Is it the way I would wish? Absolutely not. People have different views on the Patten report on policing but I sat on the Northern Ireland Policing Board. When it was published, the Patten report offered an implementation plan. It was comprehensive, fully joined up, all the necessary strands had been identified and interdependent activities had been recognised such that there was a proper sequencing of the things that needed to happen.

Given the political situation, this was a little more complex because Dame Anne Owers produced her report and the political responses to it varied. There was no unanimous view that people wanted to accept the report and implement it. My interpretation is akin to that of the Minister for Justice in taking the work forward: rather than having a scenario where the Anne Owers report has been accepted, we acknowledge that this is not the case and we now move to see how we can best implement it. To some extent there has been a necessity to feel our way. It has been done in more of a step-by-step approach rather than a comprehensive acceptance. There have been consequences of that.

We make a point of meeting each of the political parties on a regular basis. We welcome the fact that over time because of the dialogue and because of people becoming involved in the issues and understanding the possible benefits of alternative approaches, we have made progress in terms of the commitment to reform. However, the problem with doing it in that way is that in terms of maximising the return on the investment we are making, the process has not been as clean as I would have liked. We are making progress step by step rather than having unequivocal support and thus having the opportunity to get stuck in to making it happen.

Mr. Paul Maskey, MP:

Ms McCabe referred to the implementation plan. There are no timeframes because of the step-by-step approach and there are consequences for prisoners within the system. I do not believe that a step-by-step process is good enough, especially when there have been failures within the system. Is it possible that pressure can be put on to ensure that the implementation process is time bound?

Ms Pauline McCabe:

We met each of the political parties. We approached the justice committee and the Minister for Justice. We argued from the outset of the need for a joined-up implementation plan. The matter was discussed at the justice committee several times but the fact is that it did not happen. However, one welcome development has been the establishment of a change team. It has not started at the time or from the place we would have wished, but given where we are now, it is trying to produce a comprehensive programme of work. It is engaging with everyone who has a part to play. It is starting to consider sequencing issues and to put timescales against activities. Crucially, it is beginning to do proper costing. One of the downsides of not having an implementation plan has been that in the absence of one, we cannot say that in a given timeframe this is what we expect it to look like, or that if we make a given investment now, then we will get a given outcome at the other end. Without it, if we approach different departments with responsibility for health, education or development and so on, and urge them to commit to it, it is very difficult to get commitments.

In my view, this continues to be a flaw in the context of there being serious joined-up thinking right at the top at departmental, committee and ministerial level. For example, everyone would benefit if the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, which has such a key role to play, adopted a much more joined-up approach. In the absence of that, those at prison level and at South Eastern Health and Social Care Trust level are doing the best they can to co-ordinate their efforts.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I thank Ms McCabe for her presentation. A group of Senators and Deputies is very concerned with regard to the human rights of certain prisoners in Maghaberry Prison. The group has made two visits to the facility. I was involved in the most recent of these, which took place just before Christmas. We met the authorities at the prison, the prisoners themselves and various groups. We then met the Northern Ireland Minister for Justice, Mr. David Ford, MLA, and several other MLAs at Stormont. We have since made a request to meet the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Ms Theresa Villiers, MP.

I accept that Ms McCabe cannot discuss particular prisoners. However, I am wondering about her involvement in this matter. Serious concerns have arisen with regard to the fact that some people have been held, without charge, in Maghaberry Prison for some time. There are also concerns about the dirty protest which took place at the prison over a period of almost two years. A number of prisoners involved in that protest developed serious health problems. How is it possible that someone from the prison was brought to a hospital to have a heart procedure and was then returned there while the dirty protest was ongoing?

On strip searches, the authorities at Maghaberry informed us that a new machine is being trialled at other prisons. When will such a machine be introduced at Maghaberry, where there was a serious problem in respect of strip searches? In my opinion, such searches are an abuse of human rights. During our visit, I raised the issue of one prisoner, who is now in hospital, in the context of her lack of access to fresh air. I was informed that she could have been incarcerated in one of the other prisons but these would also have been unsuitable in the context of her health needs. Some of the health needs of the prisoners are Maghaberry are just not being addressed.

My final question relates to Ms McCabe's relationship with the parole commissioners and the Minister. I have never come across a more obvious example of the ball being kicked from one authority to another because nobody seems to want to assume responsibility for these matters. We are all concerned about the preservation of the Good Friday Agreement, the peace treaties, etc., but I do not believe anybody realises the significance of these human rights issues. I stress the term "human rights issues" because I am not referring to the political views of the people in question. What is happening could really undermine the great work that has been done in the past. Perhaps Ms McCabe will outline her views on that matter.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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In light of the number of issues Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan has raised, perhaps Ms McCabe might like to deal with them before we proceed to deal with the questions of other members who are offering.

Ms Pauline McCabe:

I will begin by discussing human rights in general before dealing with the specifics. When I was preparing my presentation, I tried to provide a long list of examples of the kind of areas in respect of which we consider complaints in order to try to demonstrate the extent to which human rights considerations are relevant to and underpin a great deal of our work. That is both in terms of the issues we consider via complaints and also in the context of death-in-custody investigations, where issues relating to the right to life, the protection of individuals and vulnerability are very much at the heart of our work. In the context of how we approach our work, it is absolutely at the centre of everything we do.

On the specific points raised by Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan, in the past three years we have received a large number of complaints from prisoners in Roe House. I mention the latter because the Deputy made particular reference to it. We approach those complaints in the same way we approach all others. We investigate each one in full. Very often these are quite complex investigations because a great many factors come into play in determining what is happening, what should happen, what are the restrictions and - there are different perspectives in this regard - what is possible. In each case we carry out a proper investigation and produce an evidence-based report. We deal - beginning, middle and end of - in evidence and facts. We then make recommendations, where we believe it is appropriate to do so, in the context of ways to address issues which arise.

Where human rights and health care issues arise - we have considered several cases where matters relating to health care have been at least part of the complaint made - we make recommendations. On foot of the recommendations we have made over the three years, a great deal of action has been taken. In the past few weeks, in the aftermath of the conclusion of the most recent protest, we have continued to receive a significant number of complaints from republican prisoners. This demonstrates that there is an absolute recognition of the completely independent and impartial way in which we do our job, analyse the evidence and - where we deem appropriate - make recommendations which are helpful and constructive. There have been many instances where we have carried out investigations and come to the view that something which was happening was not appropriate. In such circumstances, we resolved that, with a degree of creativity, there were better ways of addressing issues. We have been influential, through our recommendations, in changing things. There are other instances where we investigate and where we arrive at the view that, in all the circumstances, the Northern Ireland Prison Services is doing everything reasonably possible. When we come across such cases, we highlight them. That is my particular experience.

In the context of people being held in isolation and as the Chairman explained, I cannot discuss individual cases. However, this is a subject which concerns me greatly. In the case of individual prisoners who have been held completely on their own in separate conditions, I have never received any specific complaints to investigate. I would have contact from solicitors and family members and I make a point of ensuring that they know what they need to do if they wish to bring a complaint to me in order that I might carry out an independent investigation.

I make it my business to keep abreast of what is happening in prisons because context is everything when I am examining complaints and making appropriate recommendations. It would be my impression that, in very difficult circumstances, it is generally the case that the Northern Ireland Prison Service tries very hard to provide the best regime possible. I have received complaints from other prisoners about the fact that the Northern Ireland Prison Service has made special efforts - on foot of concerns about isolation and people being held on their own - to ensure there is ample family contact for individuals. The latter can cause great difficulties, particularly for women prisoners, who would dearly love to enjoy the same level of family contact and who feel aggrieved that the same facility is not accorded to them.

When we carry out an investigation, we try to consider the complaint comprehensively and take on board all of the issues and challenges involved. What we are always seeking to do is discover whether there is an appropriate and constructive recommendation which we can make and which might be helpful. I have considered many complaints in respect of prisoners held in the care and supervision unit, CSU, for long periods. I have clearly stated in my reports - I have also made recommendations in this regard - that the quality of regime we can offer prisoners incarcerated in the CSU presents serious challenges. I am concerned about this matter and I am currently dealing with complaints from people held in the CSU. I will be reconsidering the position with regard to what we are providing and making recommendations if I deem it appropriate to do so.

There are circumstances which present real challenges for the Northern Ireland Prison Service, not least where there is massive overcrowding and where there is huge pressure on resources. For example, there are a great many prisoners in Maghaberry who are sharing cells at present. Even when there is a real wish to be constructive, all sorts of practical difficulties can arise. There are occasions on which we also consider the extent of the wish to be constructive. We survey everything in the round and try to ensure that we make evidence-based findings and recommendations.

On strip searches or full-body searches, as we refer to them, the question the Deputy posed really needs to be addressed to the Northern Ireland Prison Service. From a human rights perspective, we have always stated our belief that searching should be as non-intrusive as possible. There is a major issue with drugs in Northern Ireland prisons. We have reported a number of deaths in custody recently in which there is every chance that medication and drug abuse may have played a part. It is clearly the case that, in terms of self-harm, drugs are an absolute scourge with which we really must deal. Searches should be as non-invasive and dignified as possible, not least because we must also cater for the needs of prisoners with mental health problems and learning difficulties. We have always advocated that every effort should be made to identify methodologies which will ensure that the Northern Ireland Prison Service can do its job in the most respectful way possible.

In terms of the Minister and the Parole Commission, I am very much complaint-led. I would have regular meetings with the Minister, with each of the political parties, with the governors and the director general and all stakeholders, including the Criminal Justice Inspectorate and the RQIA, and I believe we can increase the value of returns of our efforts by working supportively and being knowledgeable about one another's work. I try to influence the progression of the prison reform programme, and I will explain that. When I am examining issues such as, for example, prisoners complaining about the regime or lock-down, in many instances I am extremely concerned about the quality of what we are offering. I am also very conscious that in circumstances where I have a very good understanding of where we are at and what we are trying to achieve - there is a good deal of churn at the moment because many people are leaving and new officers are coming in - that if I make recommendations that cannot currently be delivered, I can create expectations and simply make a bad situation worse. We concentrate our efforts on recommendations that can be delivered. We look at what is going on locally and see if there are ways that we can do better. We also spend a good deal of time talking to prisoners and explaining the reasons for the decisions and what we are trying to achieve through the prison reform programme. Given that we take that responsible approach, we believe we have an absolute duty and responsibility to do everything we possibly can to push the prison reform programme ahead, to speak out when we believe it is not doing what it needs to do and to try to influence the decisions that are made along the way.

With regard to the Parole Commission, we look at specific cases. If I get a complaint from a prisoner who feels that there may be issues related to the report that was put to the Parole Commission or that are likely to arise, or about the way that certain aspects of his or her co-operation with the regime or whatever is being treated and he or she believes it is unjust and unfair, in those circumstances we will carry out a full investigation and on many occasions we have made specific recommendations which have resulted in changes to what would happen with the Parole Commission. I am fully informed about its work but I do not have any week-to-week engagement with it in terms of the job it does.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I call Mr. Pat Doherty, MP, to be followed by Deputy Crowe and Senators Jim D'Arcy and White.

Mr. Pat Doherty, MP:

I welcome Ms Pauline McCabe and Mr. George Richardson and thank Ms McCabe for her very clear presentation. We have the Good Friday Agreement and we have had St. Andrews Agreement and the Hillsborough Agreement and the net result is that all other aspects of the criminal justice system have been reformed with the exception of the prison service. Ms McCabe said in her report that her office is not yet on a statutory footing, that there is no implementation plan and that 90% of her recommendations are accepted. I would like to refer to the 10% and the quality of those that are not accepted. More than 70% of the prisoners have more than one mental health problem. How does that affect their ability to even understand or know how to relate to Ms McCabe's office?

I would like Ms McCabe to comment on what Maureen said about parole commissioners. The case of Marian Price is under current review but it seems to be under review for a very long time. She is being held in Belfast City Hospital in a secure wing in isolation. She gets very little exercise and then it is after 12 o'clock at night. Martin Corey is being held on the basis of closed evidence that nobody has any notion what it is about. We would need, in the atmosphere of the Good Friday Agreement, to have that all flushed out. I ask Ms McCabe to comment on that, particularly around the points of resistance in the system for the reform of the prison service.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses. The treatment of prisoners and their families is a measure of how civilised a society is and historically we know that what happened in prisons in Ireland certainly impacted on wider society. There was mention of strip searching. I have talked to prisoners who were totally isolated, kept in sterile areas and had no real contact with the public but yet they were strip searched on a regular basis. I talked to some prisoners in the past who were in prison in England who were strip searched three, four or five times a days and they would have had no contact with the general public. There was a view that strip searching was used to degrade and to break those prisoners. The fact that strip searching is still being carried out in sterile areas of a jail does not add up. It is uncivilised and degrading for a person to have to undergo that. Modern technology can overcome the need for it but it is not being used throughout the prison system. We know from our experience of going through airport security that physical barriers have been introduced where people are searched. I cannot understood why strip searching is being used in the prisons and it is not only in the North that it is being used.

Ms McCabe mentioned that this is related to there being a big drug problem but historically there would not have been a huge drug problem on republican wings, of which I was ever aware, yet strip searches are being carried out on those prison wings. Does Ms McCabe's office have a view on the use of strip searches and their effectiveness? What has been found from strip searching prisoners, particularly those on the loyalist and republican wings? What has been found in recent years on foot of strip searches? Is it known how many strip searches are carried out? Are there statistics?

Many of us want to bring about change. Change has taken place in the courts, the police service, Ms McCabe's office, the probation service and the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions but the last bastion when it comes to change seems to be the prison service. The lack of such change has a huge impact not only on the prisoners but on their families who have to go to the prison to visit them.

Ms McCabe mentioned overcrowding. Is her office concerned about overcrowding, particularly in the republican and loyalist wings as she mentioned that cells are being shared? Has Ms McCabe expressed a view on the difficulties that are possibly coming down the track in this regard?

With regard to those prisoners who are isolated, as in the case of Marian Price who is totally isolated, her only exercise is walking down a corridor. She has no access to an outdoor area or to the sun, rain or snow. She is isolated because she is a special case because of her medical condition. The fact that in this day and age we can still isolate people in this way, people who are seriously ill, says a lot about the society that allows that to happen.

Ms Pauline McCabe:

I will start with the overcrowding issue because it also relates to what Mr. Doherty asked about the prison reform process. I should say, for the purposes of clarification, that there are no republican prisoners sharing cells in case I misled the Mr. Doherty in any way because he made that comment. It is in the integrated population that prisoners are sharing.

On the issue of overcrowding, which sits with the issue of why we are where we are with prisoner reform, some of it comes back to the level of political priority that it is given. We recognise that, being brutal, the public in Northern Ireland at the moment is interested in a whole ream of things, and prisons and prisoners are low down the list. There are not many jurisdictions where it is much different. One of the things we have been keen to do in the past five years is to encourage public debate. It would be entirely fair to say that the publication of our death-in-custody investigations have achieved much media coverage and have opened up all sorts of debates that had not taken place previously where people started to think more about what happens in prisons, what we are trying to achieve and what comes out of prison. Those things are helpful but we have a long way to go. There must be an absolute will to do it. Sometimes those in offices such as mine feel that they work and fight incredibly hard for what is achieved.

I wish to respond to the question on overcrowding. I made the point earlier, and I feel incredibly strongly about this, that we have had the three major problems for a long time, and sometimes I get incredibly frustrated at how long it takes to change things. We are still sending fine defaulters to prison. Everyone in Northern Ireland - all the political parties - are aware that we are sending fine defaulters to prison. We are now into our second if not third pilot study to find out what we are going to do about sending such people to prison. Everyone everywhere knows it is an utter and total waste of time and money and that there are much more effective ways of dealing with fine default. It is one third of all committals across the prison estate and it is one half of women prisoners. In one year in which a report was carried out, one woman went to prison for non-payment of a dog licence. This is in circumstances where prisons are trying to deliver a prison reform programme, with limited resources and limited money, and we are trying to support their efforts. In excess of £3,000 is required for every single one of those committals and it is achieving nothing in terms of the overall objective.

The second area of difficulty relates to delays in the criminal justice system. When I was on the policing board ten years ago, we got the first report from the criminal justice inspector about delays in the criminal justice system. Ten years on, it has not changed one jot. The prison is still stuffed with people on remand who, as has rightly been said, might be found innocent. Prisoners on remand are in prison for far too long. Again, that has a massive impact. It also has a massive impact on the task of reform because of what one can do with remand prisoners versus what one can do with prisoners who have been committed. All sorts of issues must be confronted.

The third crucial issue on which there has been much recent debate is people serving short sentences for non-violent crimes. The committee had a presentation recently on restorative justice. In Northern Ireland, the performance of the restorative youth justice and probation service is rather good. We know for sure that it can work if we invest properly and manage properly community disposal so that it is individually needs-driven and the package contains restorative justice where appropriate and community service where appropriate. We examine mental health issues, addiction issues, finance issues, housing issues and family support issues. We know that if we effectively deal with those issues and address them, we can achieve a much better chance of someone not re-offending than if we send them to prison. All of those things are contributing massively to overcrowding. My view is that it is completely within our gift to deal with those matters, if the political will exists to do it. The justice Minister is really pushing forward pieces of work to try to achieve change but it does sometimes feel as if it takes a very long time.

Mr. Doherty asked me about the parole commission. I do not feel that I can helpfully answer those questions. In my experience, every case is different. Each time we get a case, we go to great pains to look at every aspect of it that is relevant. We do a factual, evidence-based, objective and impartial report with appropriate recommendations, but I must have a complaint in order to be able to investigate it. In my experience, to comment on any case where one has not had a chance to do the investigation oneself and look at all of the evidence is generally not helpful. I fully understand the issues that are being raised. They are questions that must be put to others. Where I get a complaint I am very zealous about investigating it.

On full body searching, I will first come back to the comments made about the drugs problem. The point was made that republican prisoners are rarely if ever found with drugs. Whenever we look at the issue, we speak to the prisoners and the prison service, and we look at all of the relevant issues. One of the difficulties the prison service will express, which we understand, is that even though republican prisoners say they do not use drugs and the evidence might support that, they also do not co-operate with drugs testing. The problem they face is that if it was acceptable for a group of prisoners to say they do not use drugs but they will not co-operate with drugs testing then, arguably, any other group within the prison could say the same and this would give rise to all sorts of issues relating to the treatment of different groups. There are prisoners who can remain drugs-free for a period in order to create a situation where subsequently they might have the ability to use drugs or get other people to bring in drugs. That argument is often used. I fully understand why people feel that it might seem unjust but it does have wider implications in terms of the total prison population. The extent to which drugs, medicine abuse and bullying underpin efforts to try to rehabilitate and create a purposeful regime cannot be exaggerated. I would put it high on the list of priorities to be tackled robustly.

Against that, I cannot emphasise too strongly that we should do everything we humanly can to make sure that searches are as least intrusive as possible. It is appropriate for me to mention that at one stage some time ago I did get a number of reports from republican prisoners about full body searching. We investigated them fully and we looked at the relevant CCTV footage. As a result of the investigation we found that the searches were being carried out broadly in compliance with prison service policy. Republican prisoners say that carrying them out in compliance with prison service policy still constitutes physical abuse and sexual abuse. We acknowledge everyone’s position and point of view in our reports. What we did see is that the manner in which the searches were carried out, the quality of communication, respectfulness and everything else meant that there were better and less preferable ways of carrying out full body searching. We made a series of recommendations on foot of those reports that we should always apply prison service policy in line with best practice and what the best people were doing. They were fully accepted and a number of changes were made at the time to make sure that the recommendations were consistently applied. It does not change the facts and I fully understand the principle Deputy Crowe made that some people believe there should not be searches. My aim in terms of the wider picture is to find a technological solution that could detect drugs being brought in under any circumstances. That would be the ideal scenario.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Is Ms McCabe saying that the reason republican prisoners are being searched is to find drugs?

Ms Pauline McCabe:

No, I am not saying that at all. I was simply giving one of the perspectives expressed. Deputy Crowe put forward the point of view that one of the reasons people are subject to full body searches in prison as a whole relates to the movement of drugs. The point was made that republican prisoners say that they do not use drugs in prison, which is supported by the evidence. All I was saying is that when we do our investigations and look at the various arguments that are put forward, one of the arguments put forward by the prison service, which I understand, is that if one accepts that one group should not be searched, then there could be many circumstances where one should extend the argument to other groups.

I also made the point that because republican prisoners, for reasons I understand, do not engage in testing, it creates a doubly difficult situation in terms of equality where others say they do not use drugs and they will not be tested. That would create various difficulties in terms of equality of treatment and would have the potential to undermine the prison's position in some situations to prevent drugs being brought into prison.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding strip searching and internal body searching-----

Ms Pauline McCabe:

Did the Deputy say "internal body searching"?

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, internal body searching.

Ms Pauline McCabe:

To be absolutely clear, there is no internal body searching.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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None whatsoever?

Ms Pauline McCabe:

None whatsoever. I have viewed a lot of CCTV footage over many years and there is no internal body searching in Northern Ireland.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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Just strip searching.

Ms Pauline McCabe:

Just strip searching. There is no internal body searching in Northern Ireland.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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When did that end?

Ms Pauline McCabe:

In the five years I have been in the post it has not been practised.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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That is good to know. It was normal practice in the past.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I will call you again, Deputy, but the two Senators have indicated.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Ms McCabe is very welcome and I am sure she does an excellent job in her position as Prisoner Ombudsman. I listened to other members when they were asking questions and I would like them to listen to me asking mine. In December we visited Maghaberry Prison. Some of my colleagues in my party were aghast and asked me why I was doing that but because I had faith in the former Cabinet Minister, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, he invited me to accompany him and I did so. I was shocked and horrified by what I heard from the different groups we met. One of the groups we met had just come off the dirty protest and they said that some of the prison officers were using sexual connotations. I will not repeat what they told us but it was to the effect that now that they were off the dirty protest they will be into this.

We also visited Marian Price. It is beyond me why she is being held in that prison. She is physically unable to move. As Ms McCabe is aware, her sister Dolours died a few days ago. Marian told us that when she was being sent to the hospital for X-rays she was double handcuffed. Having met the woman I know she is not able to run away but the way she is being kept there is cruel. This is the issue Deputy Ó Cuív is concerned about, namely, people being held there because they had a record in the past. If the Government in the North has an issue with them, it should be brought to due legal process.

When I returned I advised my colleagues who had told me I should not go to visit the prison. On 17 December my observations were vindicated by Chief Inspector Brendan McGuigan, who issued his report on Maghaberry Prison, and everything we had heard on our visit two weeks earlier was in his report. It referred to violent bullying, intimidation, overcrowding and significant weaknesses in the system. He criticised the system in Maghaberry Prison.

In as brief a reply as possible I would like to know what Ms McCabe intends to do about that. When I visited the prison I was stand-offish about the people I would meet because I am totally supportive of the peace process, but I was shocked by what the prisoners told us, and it was vindicated within a week in Mr. Brendan McGuigan's report. I will not labour the point. We have to get to the bottom of this to keep the peace process in place. That is the reason I and my colleagues visited the prison. As briefly as she can do so I ask Ms McCabe to outline what she intends to do about Mr. Brendan McGuigan's report on Maghaberry Prison.

Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms McCabe for attending. She certainly knows her stuff. Prisons are very difficult places to manage and control, if that is the right word, and all sorts of tensions arise between prisoners in addition to mental health issues and education issues. That is a tough environment for anybody to work in and we must accept that.

We talk about the four healthy prison tests of safety, respect, purposeful activity and resettlement. Does Ms McCabe examine those or does she deal with specific individual complaints, and does she reference those complaints to those issues? What are the two most common complaints she deals with? What two actions would she regard as most important in improving the situation in the North's prisons?

Ms Pauline McCabe:

I will deal with Senator White's questions first. I must respectfully point out that I do not run the prison service and therefore responding to the inspector's report is the job of those who do support the prison service. What we try to do through our day-to-day work and our other efforts is encourage, support and drive in any way we can the need for a positive and constructive response to the inspector's report.

In fairness, because we deal in evidence, it is important to point out that the inspector also reported some evidence of improvement at Maghaberry-----

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Yes. He said there was a long way to go despite improvement.

Ms Pauline McCabe:

-----and nothing I have said today would contradict that. I have explained this. I have felt very frustrated, as have others, at the time it has taken to get the prison reform programme off the ground. I have explained that some very important developments are now happening, but if they are to deliver the change required, other very important developments must happen with urgency and taken forward in a joined-up way. The current efforts are very much targeted at doing that. Anne Owens made the point that there is no point in cherry-picking. She said what we need is root and branch reform and a joined-up approach to all of this process.

In terms of the specifics the Senator raised when she spoke to the prisoners, I come back to the fact that by far my biggest client group would be the republican prisoners. What I do each and every time, and sometimes I get multiple complaints about the same topic but sometimes I get individual ones, is carry out an investigation and, on the basis of facts and evidence, make the most helpful and constructive recommendations possible. It is very important for me to investigate properly and gather the evidence regarding what the prison service is saying and what the republican prisoners are saying. We deal in evidence and I find that, generally, in terms of moving forward, that is the most constructive approach to adopt.

I have no doubt that when somebody comes into prison, comments are made, and in many instances we find there is substance to those comments, but I cannot comment in general because what I do when I get a complaint is carry out the kind of investigation I have described. When I find things I believe are wrong, in breach of prison rules or in breach of human rights, I do not hesitate to go straight to the people who need to do something about addressing them.

On the issue of Marian Price, I have said that I do not have a complaint and anyway I could not talk about an individual case. I would respectfully point out, however, that we have to make a distinction in terms of those who believe there is a question around whether she should be in prison. My interest as prison ombudsman is the way we are looking after and responding to the needs of whoever is in the prison. That is the part of the equation with which I am concerned. I believe the other questions are for others.

Let me outline the two steps that I believe are most important in making a difference. First, the strands of work that have not been done quickly enough to ensure adequate purposeful activity in prison for everybody need to be fast-tracked urgently. Everything I have seen in the past five years persuades me that locking up prisoners, be they ill, addicted, lonely, angry or frustrated, for long periods does nothing to achieve rehabilitation. It does nothing to protect vulnerable prisoners. For those with an interest in drugs, it does nothing but encourage them to go looking for them. It stops them from sleeping at night, which increasingly incentivises them to try to obtain medicine and drugs. I met the change team yesterday and note it is trying very hard to address these issues. The reports that we and others produce indicate progress is much too slow, but it would be unfair if I did not say that fairly strenuous efforts are now being made to take action on the back of the reports.

The second step concerns management capacity and capability. We do have some good governors but the prison service has not addressed adequately the need to build a critical mass of managers and supervisors who are truly pulling in the direction in which we are trying to travel. There are a great many people in the Northern Ireland Prison Service who have known no other world. In any change programme, it is vital that there be staff with different ideas and experiences who can come into the mix and have an influence. To date, the change programme has not provided for that adequately. As I have said to all the parties, the Minister, the prison service and the trust, dealing with this issue should be accorded very high priority. Steps are now being taken to achieve this but it is a quite difficult process. There is much red tape and bureaucracy associated with what one is allowed to do in Northern Ireland. This sometimes undermines very important steps that should be taken.

Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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The report contains an oblique reference to unequal outcomes, depending on one's religion. Is this significant?

Ms Pauline McCabe:

It is absolutely a matter of concern. I receive complaints in which unequal outcomes are alleged. When I receive them, I examine them very seriously and go to great lengths to obtain the necessary statistics and analyse them. We recently dealt with several complaints across the spectrum and noted the various reasons for which people believe they may have been picked on. They are related to search arrangements. When I examined them very thoroughly, I found there were system flaws that meant the information on which the prison service has been relying is actually flawed. Recommendations have now been made for an overhaul of the way the information is captured so the service will have a more accurate picture.

In any organisation, it is in everyone's interest that there be a representative workforce. In the case of policing, there are excellent officers who do a good job, but perceptions are as important as reality. Having a representative workforce is the best way of ensuring everybody feels he is treated fairly and equally. Clearly, this is not the starting point in the Northern Ireland Prison Service. The service recognises fully the need to monitor very carefully what is happening in that respect. That we have identified that the figures being produced were flawed means, I hope, that the information gathered henceforth will be more accurate. The Equality Commission and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission show a keen interest in this subject.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Everyone in this part of the country was appalled by the murder of the prison officer David Black and we signed the condolence book. Everyone here was totally sympathetic. Ms McCabe is a very eloquent lady. On the day in question, I was concerned about family members getting involved in the maintenance of the struggle with regard to fair treatment.

Ms Pauline McCabe:

The event was devastating on every front. While it was a tragedy for the prison service, Mr. Black's family was the most devastated. Terrible hurt has been caused among many families and there is no escaping that. At a time when people are working so hard to try to move forward constructively and change the culture - I am not referring to the personal tragedy - the activity to which the Senator alluded has not helped in any way. A great many prisoners from right across the spectrum who knew Officer Black spoke very highly of him. Prisoners and the authorities were equally saddened by his death. In a funny way, there was quite a lot of bonding as a result of what occurred because people were united in condemning the murder.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Is that why the last two groups came off the dirty protest? This was not verbalised. The groups did not want to see the aforementioned happening. I felt this might have been the reason.

Ms Pauline McCabe:

I could not possibly speculate on the reason they left the protest.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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I am giving my instinctive reaction.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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Ms McCabe stated in her presentation that 90% of her recommendations were fully accepted. Was a recommendation on strip searching among the 10% that were not?

Ms Pauline McCabe:

I said at least 90%. The rate frequently runs to approximately 95%. In the case of death-in-custody investigations, the rate is usually 100%. There is nothing particularly significant about the ones that are not accepted. They may not be accepted by the service because it feels it may not be able to deliver on them for practical reasons. From time to time, evidence pertaining to an individual complaint may suggest a decision was not appropriate, respectful or prison service compliant. We may recommend that somebody should be compensated over a matter but the prison service, for various reasons, may refuse to accept that. I do not automatically accept its view in that regard. If, on examination, we really do feel the failure to implement one of our recommendations was quite unjust, we try quite hard to achieve change. On occasion, and if necessary, we go to other people who may be more willing to recognise the justice of the recommendation and implement change. We try to ensure the recommendations are relevant, deliverable, achievable and cost effective. There will be times, albeit very occasionally, on which a decision might be regarded as disproportionate, for example.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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Has Ms McCabe's office the power to make recommendations on prison policy?

Ms Pauline McCabe:

Absolutely.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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Does that include strip searching?

Ms Pauline McCabe:

I can make recommendations in connection with anything. I already made the point that when we considered all the full-body-searching CCTV footage, we made a string of recommendations that were fully accepted as a consequence.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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Has a recommendation been made to discontinue strip searching?

Ms Pauline McCabe:

No it has not.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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What about solitary confinement or isolation?

Ms Pauline McCabe:

Ultimately, I believe cellular confinement is extremely undesirable. A great many complaints I received at the time of the first republican prisoner protest in April 2010 related to the extent of lockdowns. We were involved in work for an extensive period that predated all the recent protests. Significant regime changes resulted from our recommendations. Prior to the commencement of the additional protests, there had been some very substantial changes to the regime. Any time I make a recommendation in Roe House, I always extend it to Bush House. I talk to the prisoners in the latter so they will understand why we are making the recommendations.

Cellular confinement is undesirable. However, the complaints I have received on this over the years demonstrate it is necessary to examine individual circumstances. Issues arise such as personal protection for individuals. Some prisoners, for various reasons, actually want to be on their own and are very resistant to our best efforts to remove them from cellular confinement. In each case, I must examine the evidence, interview all the people concerned and try to determine what constructive recommendations we can make in order to make progress. I have made absolutely clear today that locking up people for long periods does no good whatsoever.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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There are different types of solitary confinement or isolation. One has voluntary isolation primarily for the purpose of self-protection for whatever reason. There also can be voluntary isolation for people who like to be in that situation. Then there is solitary confinement as a means of punishment. To judge from what the ombudsman has stated, she thinks involuntary isolation or solitary confinement is not right. Has she made a recommendation to that effect?

Ms Pauline McCabe:

In many circumstances in which I have looked into individual-----

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking just about policy.

Ms Pauline McCabe:

On the question of whether I have made a recommendation, I will go back a step. Prison service rules provide that sometimes there is cellular confinement as a punishment. There now are much stricter rules on how long people should be confined and on what facilities to which they will have access. These rules have changed significantly over time in respect of what this actually means. Members should remember that I am complaint-driven and in each case I get, I look at it, at the regime and the circumstances and I constantly make constructive recommendations on how the individual circumstances of the particular case can be addressed. I could not possibly make a recommendation stating there should never be cellular confinement because as I noted, there will be circumstances in which that simply could not be delivered in the context of protecting an individual.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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That pertains to voluntary as against involuntary isolation. I refer only to those who have been put into solitary confinement against their will as a mechanism of punishment.

Ms Pauline McCabe:

I have regularly made recommendations on circumstances in which people are confined to cell. I have made recommendations on the kind of facilities to which they should have access.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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But not on policy.

Ms Pauline McCabe:

No. I am trying to think of examples to do justice to the Deputy's question. I also - significantly in my opinion - have influenced the fact that wherever possible, there are more constructive ways of punishing people than cellular confinements. In a recently-published report, I made a point regarding circumstances in which people engage in serious bullying and cellular confinement is used as the punishment. While I believe there must be consequences when people bully, one of the most likely outcomes in such circumstances is that the minute the person in question comes out of cellular confinement, he or she will be twice as motivated to go and bully the person who he or she initially was motivating and who now has resulted in him or her having a period of cellular confinement. Consequently, I believe that in many circumstances, there are much better ways of dealing with bad behaviour and many of the reports and recommendations we have made over time have influenced that. As to whether I have made a recommendation stating that cellular confinement should never be used as a punishment, no I have not.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Ms Pauline McCabe:

However, I must note that were there a way to get to that place, it would be a very desirable place to work towards.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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Is the ombudsman aware of the studies done on the effects of solitary confinement on prisoners?

Ms Pauline McCabe:

Were the Deputy to read my death in custody reports, in which I have visited this theme many times, he would find I have stated publicly, more times than I can count, that I absolutely and totally believe that nothing is achieved. Members should bear in mind while the position is improving all the time, in prisons in Northern Ireland we have had a situation in which people have been locked up for long periods - I believe you have experienced the same problem at times - when it has nothing to do with punishment but pertains to the absence of proper regimes, purposeful activity and everything else. I refer to a situation in which it is a way of life that people are locked up for long periods and not something that is just used as a punishment. The Deputy may have read my report on Allyn Baxter, which I published last year. He was a young man who died in Hydebank Wood Prison and who, following committal, had been locked up for 23 hours a day. I unequivocally explained exactly what were the consequences of those kinds of lock-downs. We have made this a public issue and it now is at the heart of the prison reform programme and is utterly recognised in respect of policies and procedures for dealing with vulnerable prisoners. However, we have a long way to go.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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I have one final question. Is the ombudsman satisfied with the political support she is getting regarding prison reform?

Ms Pauline McCabe:

I have very constructive meetings with the parties and am grateful for the kind of genuine interest that is shown. I would be lying if I did not say I get frustrated that it does not translate into results more quickly than it does. Sometimes, it feels like hard work.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms McCabe for her openness on this delicate and sensitive issue. We appreciate the work in which she is involved in a constantly evolving environment, which hopefully is evolving in the right direction. I have two questions. The ombudsman referenced the importance of cross-community representation among prison officers, as it is conducive to a more positive environment. How important is balanced cross-community representation in the recruitment of prison officers, if they are being recruited at present? Second, having read the United Kingdom commission's proposal on a Bill of Rights for the United Kingdom, I noted there were many references to prisoners' rights. One of the outstanding elements of the Good Friday Agreement is a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland. How important is a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland in respect of prisoners' rights and the work in which the ombudsman is involved?

Ms Pauline McCabe:

On the cross-community issue, I made the point that it is every bit as much about perceptions as it is about realities. I believe it is established good practice everywhere that it is in our interests to have a workforce that is representative of the people for whom they are responsible for whom they care and to whom they deliver a service. We are in the middle of a major recruitment process in Northern Ireland to recruit new officers. A severance programme is operational and officers are leaving the service, while other officers are being recruited and already have started to move out into prisons and to become part of the prison workforce. The director general made a public statement not very long ago in which she expressed disappointment that the balance achieved, with regard to the people being appointed, is not what the service would have wished. As for the predominance of appointments, there have been more male and more Protestant appointments than there have been Catholic or those designated as "other". Obviously, when the Patten programme was rolled out, 50:50 recruitment was in place, which basically made sure that those who were recruited into the service, certainly with regard to the Catholic-Protestant ratio, were recruited in an equal measure. However, within the prison service, the issues of gender, foreign nationals, disability and all those other areas of representation are absolutely as important. Consequently, moving forward-----

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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Is it just a case that members of, say, the Catholic community are not coming forward for interview and are not even applying?

Ms Pauline McCabe:

We need to do a detailed analysis of all the figures. I think the final appointment worked out at approximately 65:35. Sorry, it was 65:25. It would be necessary to carry out a detailed analysis of the proportion of those applying versus those appointed and so on. On the positive side, I note that I have invested significant effort in running sessions for all the new officers coming in. I go to the college and run sessions for all of them and take the opportunity to engage with them and talk about the way forward. I must state the quality of people actually being recruited and the experience and attitudes they bring have been hugely encouraging. We just need to make efforts in the future to encourage applicants who are more representative. In fairness, with the wisdom of hindsight, perhaps not enough effort was put into encouraging applicants from right across the community. In policing, I was on the board when civilian recruitment was being considered and even though we did not have a 50:50 ratio, we did a colossal amount of work to encourage under-represented groups to apply. While this is easy with hindsight, perhaps people did not recognise there may have been a greater need to do this than was appreciated and that it will be quite important in the future.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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Has recruitment in this present round closed?

Ms Pauline McCabe:

They carried out a huge exercise and received a massive response - I believe they got approximately 3,000 - and consequently, it has. However, I believe there will be opportunities in the future. I can only reiterate that notwithstanding the representation issues, my experience of the people who were selected through the recruitment process that was applied is that the attitude they bring and their commitment to playing their part has been extremely encouraging.

On the issue of the Bill of Rights, I am aware that people have very different views. While I see a lot of merit in the Bill of Rights, not having it cannot be a reason for not doing absolutely everything we need to do. Irrespective of that, it is absolutely within our gift to be able to sort out and to develop the kind of prison service we need in Northern Ireland.

It would be helpful, of course.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the members of the committee for their contributions and Mr. Richardson for his presentation. We appreciate Ms McCabe's presence and her openness on this issue. The committee would like to stay in touch with her. She should feel free at any stage to contact us. We will be monitoring her good work.

Ms Pauline McCabe:

I finish on 31 May so my involvement is almost at an end.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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It is the 15th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement.

Ms Pauline McCabe:

I thank the committee. I really appreciated this meeting.