John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy McCarthy has been replaced by Deputy Keaveney. I thank Deputy McCarthy for his contribution to the Committee of Public Accounts and I welcome Deputy Keaveney. I wish him well in his work on the committee. Are the minutes of the meeting of 22 November 2012 agreed? Agreed.

We will review the minute of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform on our report on the VAT charge on the National Aquatic Centre at next week’s meeting when the latest issue raised by Dublin Waterworld can also be discussed. At next week's meeting we will deal with the draft report on the HSE, which will finish off that work and we can publish the report before Christmas. For the meeting with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in respect of Votes 28 and 29, we will circulate the Department's interim report on the misappropriation of funds in Uganda and a memo on the issues arising from the committee's visit to Mozambique last week.

Next Thursday a delegation from the public accounts committee of the Gauteng Provincial Legislature of South Africa will be in Dublin and we will arrange a short meeting of Members who are available to meet the delegation early on Thursday afternoon. The clerk will be in contact with Members.

Correspondence has been received since the meeting of Thursday, 22 November 2012. No. 3A is correspondence from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers.

No. 3A.1 is correspondence, dated 21 November 2012, from Mr. Brian Purcell, Secretary General, Department of Justice and Equality, providing information requested by the committee at its meeting of 25 October 2012.

No. 3A.2 is correspondence, dated 26 November 2012, from Mr. Brendan Ryan, chief executive officer, Courts Service, providing information requested by the committee at its meeting of 25 October 2012. I propose it be noted and published.

No. 3A.3 is correspondence, dated 26 November 2012, from Mr. Tom O’Mahony, Secretary General, Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport providing information requested by the committee at its meeting of 15 November 2012 regarding Mr Garry Coughlan and Aer Lingus. I propose to note it.

No. 3A.4 is correspondence, dated 26 November 2012, from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General, Department of Education and Skills, providing information requested by the committee at its meeting of 1 November 2012 regarding Mr John Curry and County Wexford VEC. I propose to note it.

No. 3A.5 is correspondence, dated 27 November 2012, from Mr. Ray Mitchell, assistant national director, parliamentary and regulatory affairs, HSE, about providing further information requested by the committee at its meeting of 8 November 2012. I propose to note and publish it.

No. 3A.6 is correspondence, dated 28 November 2012, from Ms Geraldine Tallon, Secretary General, Department of Environment, Community and Local Government, providing further information requested by the committee at its meeting of 31 October 2012. I propose to note and publish it.

No. 3A.7 is correspondence, dated 27 November 2012, from Ms Orla McPartlin, chief superintendent, An Garda Síochána, providing further information requested by the committee at its meeting of 1 November 2012. I propose to note and publish it.

No. 3A.8 is correspondence, dated 27 November 2012, from Ms Clare McMahon, chief executive officer, County Wexford Vocational Education Committee, providing information requested by the committee at its meeting of 1 November 2012 regarding Mr John Curry and County Wexford VEC. I propose to note it.

No. 3A.9 is correspondence, dated 29 November 2012, from Mr. Ray Mitchell, assistant national director, parliamentary and regulatory affairs, HSE, amending correspondence dated 19 November 2012, the reference number of which is PAC-R-739, 3A.4, point 3, which was noted at PAC meeting of 22 November 2012. I propose to note and publish it.

No. 3A.10 is correspondence, dated 28 November 2012, from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General, Department of Education and Skills, providing information requested by the committee at its meeting of 25 November 2012 regarding public sector allowances paid to third level lecturers to mark exam papers. I propose to note it.

No. 3A.11 is correspondence, dated 28 November 2012, from Ms Geraldine Tallon, Secretary General, Department of Environment, Community and Local Government, regarding the statutory audit report to the members of Dublin City Council for the year ended 31 December 2011 on the Poolbeg Incinerator.

Items numbered 3B are individual correspondence and-or complaints. No. 3B.1 is correspondence, received on 22 November 2012, from an anonymous source, regarding the location of the national children’s hospital. I propose to note it.

No. 3B.2 is correspondence, dated 14 November 2012, from Mr. Michael Brosnan, North Circular Road, Dublin 7, regarding Mr. Charles Farrell. I propose to note it.

No. 3B.3 is correspondence, dated 21 November 2012, from Mr. John Moriarty, Dublin Waterworld Limited, regarding the National Aquatic Centre VAT dispute. I propose to note it. We will deal with this next week when we deal with the minute of the Minister in response to our report on the VAT charge on the National Aquatic Centre.

No. 3B.4 is correspondence, dated 22 November 2012, from Mr. Terry Melia on public sector procurement reform. I propose to note it and forward it to the Department of Education and Skills for a note on the matter.

No. 3B.5 is correspondence, dated 23 November 2012, from Mr. Owen Cooke on Fáilte Ireland. I propose to note it and forward it to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport for a note on the issue.

No. 3B.6 is correspondence, received 27 November 2012, from Mr. Garry Coughlan regarding Aer Lingus. Earlier correspondence from the Department has dealt with the issues raised by Mr Coughlan.

Items numbered 3D are documents relating to the committee meeting of 22 November 2012. No. 3D.1 is correspondence, dated 30 November 2012, from Ms. Geraldine Tallon, Secretary General, Department of Environment, Community and Local Government, regarding briefing paper on matters to be considered at the meeting of 6 December 2012. I propose to note and publish it.

No. 3D.1 is correspondence, dated 30 November 2012, from Ms. Geraldine Tallon, Secretary General, Department of Environment, Community and Local Government regarding an opening statement. I propose to note it.

Items numbered 4 deal with reports of statements and accounts received since 22 November 2012. No. 4.1 is Dublin City University; No. 4.2 is the Irish Sports Council; No. 4.3 is the Commission for Energy Regulation; and No. 4.4 is Pobal. The accounts of the Commission for Energy Regulation will be dealt with at our meeting of 17 January 2013.

The work programme is now on screen. The draft programme covering the period January to April 2013 will be discussed next week. Is there anything members wish to raise under any other business?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I would like to thank everyone who was involved in the preparation of the report on public sector allowances, particularly those in the secretariat. To go from where we were when we discussed the issue initially to having the finished volume in our hands the next day was a great achievement and happened thanks to the commitment and effort of a number of people. It was a report that was well received and will play a role in the debate that will ensue. Everyone who was involved in its preparation deserves our thanks.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I would like to echo those remarks and thank Mr. McEnery of the committee secretariat in particular, along with his colleagues, for the often unseen work they do. We give them a hard time but the work they do is recognised. It was a good launch and a serious document that will inform Government and public thinking. I thank everyone who was involved in making this the sort of document for which the Committee of Public Accounts is renowned. The committee's reputation is enhanced by the document, which was well put together and covered all the main points.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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I would like to be associated with those comments. It was an example of the Committee of Public Accounts at its best. The report was fair and balanced, as people would be entitled to expect from the committee. I also thank Mr. Ted McEnery and the secretariat for their hard work under some pressure from us. It succeeded in exposing some of the myths about public sector allowances. It has become part of the national conversation about those allowances and which of them should be retained and which should be dispensed with. They can now be negotiated around consolidation of core pay. The ultimate comment is that from the point of view of our own allowances, many of the recommendations found their way into the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform's budget speech yesterday. We should be proud that we are part of that debate and that action was taken on foot of that.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate all those working in the secretariat on their hard work. We set ourselves an almost impossible timeline for the amount of work we needed to do. We managed to arrange all the meetings and during proceedings we got more detailed information at the Committee of Public Accounts than had previously been given. A huge amount of additional work was necessary. Everything had to be done quickly but we were still able to launch the report on time and it had an influence on the budget and other proceedings. That is a good thing for us and I commend all those involved. I also thank the Chairman for steering the meeting so well.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I join members in complimenting Mr. Ted McEnery, all of the staff, and the Comptroller and Auditor General. The substantial amount of work that went into the report and the tight timeframe were mentioned during the launch. I would also say to members that the examination of witnesses during the process was key to the information in the report. The examination was very positive and made it very worthwhile for those who came in with their respective organisations. I thank the members for the lengths they went to get to the exact information required to inform that public conversation. That was the important part. The launch went well and reflected well on the members of the Committee of Public Accounts.

Before he arrived, we welcomed Deputy Keaveney to the meeting. I hope his stay on the committee will be an enjoyable time. We look forward to his contributions.

Can we agree the agenda for Thursday, 13 December at 10 a.m.? Next week's meeting will deal with the broader macro issues relating to public private partnerships, whether they offer value for money and the extent of the State's commitment to PPPs. Deputy McDonald raised the specific issue and we want to look at the analysis that is ongoing at central government level on the future use of PPPs. We will meet the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the National Development Finance Agency to deal with these matters. The agenda for the meeting will be chapter 6 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on financial commitments under public private partnerships in 2011. The National Development Finance Agency financial statements for 2011 will be included in that meeting.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Now that we have the critical review of the Local Government Audit Service and the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General in front of us, will we discuss that at this meeting?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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This was an issue that was raised previously with the Secretary General regarding the audit of local government and the proposals at the group meeting to discuss the possibility of the amalgamation of the Comptroller and Auditor General's office and the Local Government Audit Service generally. We can discuss that at today's meeting.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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The second last paragraph of the review seems to state the two agencies are not to be merged. Does the Comptroller and Auditor General have a comment? We talked previously about our ability to look into local government spending after it leaves the central fund. This might even have been raised in the Chairman's Bill about bringing it into the Comptroller and Auditor General's office.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister launched a document recently that suggested there would be a different audit office and procedure relative to local government, which runs against the belief I have that they should all be together in one office. It is a policy matter but we can still discuss it with the Secretary General and perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The Government has decided in the context of reform of local government to put in place an alternative system for looking at system-wide issues in the local government sector. That decision having been made, the proposal to merge the Local Government Audit Service into the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General does not now arise. There are no proposals to change my mandate on the audit of central government funds spent locally. We have reported on that spending to the extent that current legislation allows, and I intend to keep a focus on central government funding spent at local level. Including the responsibilities of the Department in the oversight of that spend. Clearly, policy matters are not something I would get into.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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The last paragraph of the review refers to enhanced co-operation between the Comptroller and Auditor General's office and the Local Government Audit Service. As we going to get more oversight of local government spending?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

No. In the course of reviewing the work of both offices, and how we might cooperate, the reform agenda places an emphasis on shared services. To the extent we can cooperate and assist the Local Government Audit Service in its work, we will do all we can within the resources we have. Another possibility is to carry out coordinated audits where we would both focus on a related issue. Obviously I must make my decisions about what I can consider I can and should do about central government spending. We will talk to one another more another about reporting priorities.

Obviously we must see how this other chamber of review will operate.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Under current legislation can an Oireachtas committee follow the money trail of the local authorities? The Committee of Public Accounts follows the money trail for all Departments, with the exception of the local authorities. Is there a mechanism under the legislation where another committee, such as the Joint Committee of the Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht, can follow up on the expenditure of local authorities?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I am not that familiar with the operation of the Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht committee, but I would image the same sort of limitation would apply to it as applies to the Committee of Public Accounts. What the Department has been doing, and the Secretary General will be able to give a broader view, is to ensure there is local accountability for local decision making. A certain element of funding is raised locally.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Under the current system, to whom does the local authority auditor report?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The reports are presented to the relevant local authority.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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To whom does the local authority report?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

To the elected members of the local authority.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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After they report to the elected members does the report go to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

All of the reports would go to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. The Department is in a position to have an overview of expenditure.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is that a function of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, that is where it exists.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We should continue with this line of questioning when the Secretary General comes before us.