Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, and her officials. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. The purpose of the meeting is to consider the 2013 allocation for the Department of Children and Youth Affairs in the light of the Government's decision in 2011 based on its comprehensive expenditure report.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the select sub-committee for inviting me to discuss expenditure in 2013 vis-à-vis the 2012 Revised Estimates for Vote 40 - Department of Children and Youth Affairs. I hope members have found the briefing information helpful. In the Revised Estimates for 2012 gross funding of almost €427 million was allocated to my Department. This includes over €418.6 million in current funding and €8.35 million in capital funding. When appropriations-in-aid receipts of just over €12.2 million are taken into account, the net amount in current funding allocated to my Department in 2012 is €406.4 million.

This is the second Estimates process being undertaken by the Government.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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May I request a copy of the Minister's script?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I sent it to the secretariat.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I apologise to the Deputy.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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We have committed to restoring Ireland's economic sovereignty through ensuring a successful and sustainable exit from the troika programme. This will require eliminating our excessive annual deficit. Together with other Departments, in late 2011 my Department undertook a comprehensive review of expenditure in order to achieve public expenditure savings over the three years 2012 to 2014. The Department was required to contribute €41.384 million in savings over the three years, with €16.028 million of these savings required in 2013, representing a reduction of just under 4%.

Under the new performance accounting arrangements introduced in 2012, the subhead structure of Vote 40 is based on three major programme areas: programme A - children and family support programme; programme B - sectoral programme for children and young people; and programme C - policy and legislative programme. Of the €16 million savings required in 2013, some €4.27 million are to be made under programme A; €9.83 million under programme B and €1.92 million under programme C. The current funding allocation for my Department after reduction taking account of the comprehensive review of expenditure is of the order of €400 million.

The free preschool year under the early childhood care and education, ECCE, programme is expected to cost €175.8 million in 2012. This is a universal programme, with a 97% uptake, which is proving to be vitally important in improving outcomes for children. The cost of a scheme is a function of the number of children in the eligible age range and capitation rates. Based on the statistics available for birth rates in the country, there has been no decline in the number of children in the eligible age range; in fact, recent increases in birth rates indicate that the number of places will, if anything, increase, giving rise to a subsequent need for funding. As members of the committee will be aware, there is a programme for Government commitment to maintain the universal free preschool year. This is a commitment I have been determined to meet and I secured additional funding in 2012 to meet the increased demand. I am equally determined to meet the commitment and protect the future of the scheme. From time to time I hear rumours that the Department is not committed to it. I reiterate that we certainly are. Consequently, there is limited cope to achieve further saving because this is the largest expenditure item in my Department. In total, the early child care programmes implemented by the Department accounts for over €250 million or 60% of its expenditure. It is striking that 60% of the Department's total expenditure is in the area of early childhood care and education. Against this background, difficult decisions are required.

The other programmes involving significant expenditure by my Department include the school completion programme and youth schemes and programmes under the Family Support Agency. While savings will be sought in these areas, I am committed to ensuring they will, to the greatest extent possible, be effected through more streamlined delivery and targeted outcomes. To this end, arrangements are being made in my Department to carry out a detailed review of both the school completion programme and the youth programme in the coming months.

I restate my commitment not to cut the overall funding envelope for local voluntary youth grants. It was not reduced last year and will not be next year. This reaffirms my commitment to protecting and promoting voluntary youth work which is vitally important in supporting young people and communities.

Significant organisational reforms are planned to ensure the most effective use of available resources. The combination of HSE child welfare and protection services, the family resource centres and the counselling services under the Family Support Agency and the education and welfare services of the National Educational Welfare Board will provide a very effective starting point in ensuring supports for children and families, particularly those who are most vulnerable. These services are now more effective and streamlined.

I wish to refer to a number of issues which have arisen during 2012 which must be factored in when framing the 2013 allocations in my Department's Vote. I welcome comments from Deputies in this regard. They include the increasing cost of providing the community child care subvention scheme which assists low income parents with child care costs owing to the increasing number of qualifying parents. The impact of this trend in terms of continued upward demand on the scheme in 2013 will need to be closely monitored. I informed Deputies last year that we had filled all the places available. There was significant demand on the scheme last year.

Deputies will have heard about the longitudinal study of children. The latest research, published today, covers 13 year olds. I identified savings in this area that could be made because contractual commitments were coming to an end, but given the importance of the study, it is my intention to proceed in 2013 with the third sweep of the infant cohort at age five years in order to complete phase 1. I am pleased to be able to do this because there was a question mark over whether it would continue. The data that are emerging from the study are very important.

What is critical - the Joint Committee on Health and Children has a role in this regard - is that the many recommendations in the longitudinal study of children are acted on and influence policy and that lessons are learned from them.

The longitudinal study report notes the high number of 13 year olds who are obese. Having made a similar finding previously in respect of three year olds, the study's most recent findings indicate that obesity is an ongoing and disturbing trend. We need to act to ensure we interrupt this trend. In this regard, I am aware that the joint committee has been studying the issue. Given the importance of the longitudinal study, the provision of funding for this purpose is an effective use of State resources. We have information on infants and three year olds and the new cohort which I am pleased to support will provide information on five year olds. This will give a continuous assessment across the three age groups.

For legal reasons, I must continue to make provision for the early childhood payment in the Vote for 2013. Deputies will recall that this payment was abolished some years ago. However, ongoing legal commitments arise and cases are still being processed before the courts, surprising as that may be for Deputies to hear. For this reason, I am required to make an allocation for the payment in the subhead. It is a nominal amount which will have to be met from overall resources. An up-to-date assessment of these costs will have to be made before allocations are finalised.

I am pleased that an increased capital allocation will be made to Vote 40 in 2013. More than €20 million in capital funding is expected to be allocated in 2013 as part of the decision to proceed with the Oberstown campus project to redevelop and expand the children's detention centre in Oberstown. I am pleased to note that the project has been through the planning process without objection. I have had several meetings with staff from the Office of Public Works to progress the project. As I have informed members previously, I am pleased that 16 year olds are no longer accommodated in the facility. The new accommodation is required to ensure all 17 year olds will be accommodated on the campus from 2014 onwards.

Recently I announced additional capital funding for youth cafés in 2012 and a new capital programme in 2013 for youth cafés, other youth projects and the development of play and recreational facilities by local authorities. In the case of youth cafés, funding of €500,000 is being made available for the first time, while in the case of play and recreational facilities, I expect funding of €1.75 million to be available in 2013. Several youth cafés have been opened in the past year and they are a great asset to local communities, offering great opportunities for young people to mix in safe and welcoming surroundings in which they can develop skills and enjoy themselves. The increased funding will be of major benefit in improving recreational facilities for children and young people.

Given the overall national position, every Department must find ways to meet funding objectives. While I am satisfied children's and young people's services have been accorded a high priority relative to overall reductions in public expenditure, it is incumbent on all of us to contribute to delivering public services more cost-effectively. For this reason, it is important to reform services and analyse how funding was allocated in the past to ensure it is used more effectively. This process has involved bringing together key services under the Child and Family Support Agency and extending the review and reform of youth schemes and the school completion programme. The purpose of the reforms continues to be to ensure we achieve the best possible outcomes with the resources available to us.

I hope I have been of assistance to the select sub-committee and look forward to members' input to the discussion.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister's officials, Mr. Jim Breslin, Ms Moira O'Mara, Mr. Ger Hughes and Mr. Ger Banville. As this is her first time before the select sub-committee, I compliment the Minister on the leadership role she played during the recent referendum on children's rights. I also thank Deputies Robert Troy and Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin for showing leadership in the referendum campaign.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister and her officials and the opportunity to contribute to the discussion on the allocation of funding in 2013 for an extremely important Department. I propose to briefly highlight a number of issues.

I note the Minister proposes to increase the allocation for the child and family support programme. The purpose of the increase is, undoubtedly, to meet the costs of rolling out the Child and Family Support Agency at the start of 2013. Will the Minister update the select sub-committee on the position on the legislation establishing the new agency? I understand industrial relations issues have arisen with clinical psychologists who do not wish to transfer from the Health Service Executive to the new body. Perhaps this is one of the reasons for the delay in establishing the agency. Will the Minister clarify the position in this regard?

There appears to be a significant reduction in the allocation to meet the running costs of the Child and Family Support Agency. Will the resources provided be adequate to ensure the new agency which all Deputies support will be fully functional? I compliment the Minister on the work she has done in establishing the new body, but it must have sufficient resources to work properly. Will she indicate whether it will have a financial overhang from the HSE? As I have indicated on a number of occasions, it should commence operations with a clean sheet.

On the sectoral programme on children and young people, while I welcome the commitment from the Minister to retain the free preschool year introduced by the former Minister of State with responsibility for children and youth affairs, Mr. Barry Andrews, it is disappointing to note a 50% cut in the allocation for the early intervention programme. Only two weeks ago the childhood development initiative in Tallaght launched a report in the Mansion House, for which the Minister wrote a highly complimentary foreword. Many similar initiatives are in place, including a project in Ballymun which received a special mention in the programme for Government. Unfortunately, the Government has proposed to cut funding for early childhood interventions by 50%. The Minister consistently notes the importance of early intervention in terms of child protection and the provision of support for young people. The proposed reduction in the allocation for this programme is a retrograde step.

The Minister referred to the early childhood payment and indicated that she might, for legal reasons, be required to make allowance for the payment in the expenditure allocations for 2013. The Estimate does not include any such allocation. Therefore, I ask her to clarify the matter.

In 2012 an allocation was made to meet the costs associated with holding the constitutional referendum. In view of the challenge being made to the referendum result, is it necessary to make an allocation for this purpose in 2013? On the decision made by the Supreme Court, will the Minister comment on who made the decision to publish-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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That matter is not relevant to this meeting, the sole purpose of which is to discuss the Estimate. The Deputy may raise the issue at a future meeting.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I join the Chairman and Deputy Robert Troy in congratulating the Minister and all those who participated in promoting a positive view of the children's rights referendum.

It is something that the members of the committee, by and large - or those who regularly attend - can be justly proud of. Members can work that out for themselves.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, Minister - that is an in-joke.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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A light moment is absolutely needed here sometimes.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It is rare.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin is softening.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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For another light moment, in regard to the information provided about Vote 40, I was thinking about how wonderful the difference can be when one makes a comma out of a full stop. Under Table 1 on the second page, the document states that the application of these savings measures and other efficiencies would result in a current funding provision of €400,455 million for 2013. Mr. Jim Breslin spotted it. If only.

The situation for 2013 has to be of great concern to every one of us. We are looking at not insignificant cuts signalled across the Department of Children and Youth Affairs budget. The Minister has indicated how that will be apportioned. This is a critical year for the Department, especially with the establishment of the child and family support agency. I wish to revisit my question of this day week on the floor of the House to the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, who was taking the Order of the Business, with the Minister present. My question concerned the progress regarding the facilitating legislation for the establishment of the agency. In her reply the Minister, Deputy Burton, indicated that the situation was complex and was unable to give an assurance that the necessary legislation would be in place in this session in order to allow for the agency to be up and running on 1 January 2013. I ask the Minister to elaborate on this. If the agency is not to be in situ from 1 January, are there implications for budgetary provision for her Department for 2013? If it is the position that the current framework for delivery of child and family support services under the HSE will continue into 2013, will the Minister please advise how that might affect the projected provision for her Department and the provision for the services under the new agency throughout the calendar year 2013? How does the signalled cut of €4.27 million in programme A affect services for which the new agency would be responsible, and how does it sit with the fact that we - not only those from the Opposition benches but other voices - have quite reasonably referred to the implementation and the outworking of the people's wishes and the need for proper and adequate resourcing of the new agency? I would be concerned that a signalled cut is a worrying first step to take in the first year of the agency's role under the Department. I ask the Minister to indicate where all of this rests at this moment in time.

In regard to programme B and the €9.83 million signalled for the sectoral programme for children and young people, will the Minister give an indication of what cuts she anticipates for funding for youth services? I am speaking specifically in regard to youth organisations. I note the Minister made a commitment in her address to the committee that there would be no reduction for local voluntary youth clubs. What is the anticipated impact on the 31 national voluntary youth organisations which have been speaking fearfully of a 10% signalled cut? Can the Minister give an assurance that no such cuts will be made across that sector?

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy.

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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I welcome the Minister and her officials. This whole area is one in which there are huge paybacks for individuals and society on a long-term basis. Funding for the range of services provided by the Department gives considerable value for money. Figures suggest that for every €1 spent on such services, the payback is of the order of €10. From the point of view of communities, individuals and families, the payback is enormous. In the circumstances, if one were to accept the cutback ethos, there is a case to be made for this Department to be free of cuts because of the huge advantages it will provide to individuals and to society over a long number of years.

I agree with the two previous speakers on the need for the child and family support agency. Perhaps the Minister will explain the position in regard to legislation and funding for the agency in the coming year.

I refer to two areas in which I have a particular interest. I am involved in the preschool and domestic violence areas. As a director of the Elm Park area child care committee in Clonmel I welcome the fact that the ECCE scheme is being continued, but I ask the Minister to ensure it is properly funded as it provides a huge service to communities and particularly to disadvantaged communities throughout the country. I am also a director of Cuan Saor, which is a domestic violence information and refuge service in south Tipperary. That organisation is under particular strain and there are indications of significant cutbacks in services and in the funding provided. Perhaps the Minister will comment.

Youth organisations provide essential services, particularly in RAPID areas and deprived communities. Will the Minister indicate the level of funding for general youth services in 2013?

Ciara Conway (Waterford, Labour)
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I welcome the Minister and her officials. As this is my first opportunity to congratulate the Minister following the campaign in the run-up to the children's referendum, I am glad to echo the sentiments expressed by others. The impact of the €20 million allocated for the capital programme in Oberstown on some of the most disadvantaged and disenfranchised young people in the country is not to be underestimated. Having worked with and visited children in Oberstown and St. Patrick's, I have seen there is no comparison in terms of the service and the needs that will be met. This is something that has been spoken about regularly. Even in the most difficult financial circumstances the Government, and the Minister in particular, has been leading the way in this area.

Nobody here would disagree that the ECCE programme has been hugely successful, with a participation rate of 97% of young children and families.

The Minister will know that some of the providers and agencies that work with young people are concerned about the quality of the service provided. The Government is spending a sizeable amount of money on the provision of early childhood education. Deputy Healy is correct that for every €1 invested in a child under five, the saving is €16 because he or she is more likely to stay in school and then go on to further education and gainful employment, rather than ending up in prison. We are providing a lot of money to commercial as well as community providers and there is some concern about the quality of the service provided to children.

On the issue of youth services, it has come to my attention that the Department has decided that from January 1 next youth work funding for the various VECs around the country will be channelled through the CDVEC, the same body with responsibility for the infamous SUSI. Many in the voluntary sector and the VECs have expressed concern about how that will operate and what impact it will have on local input in terms of service provision and the allocation of funds. Such concerns might be alleviated by the provision of additional information on what this change will entail.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Notwithstanding the work that everyone here - and our respective parties - did for the recent children's rights referendum, I know how hard the Minister worked in the months leading up to it and I congratulate her on the outcome. I know the margin was tight but the passing of that referendum was an historic achievement.

Deputy Conway has already raised the issue of the regulation of providers in the ECCE scheme, about which I am also concerned. With regard to the proposal to cut the capitation grant by 4% next year, have negotiations with the providers started and has that proposal met with resistance? Some children fall through the cracks after they have had their ECCE year because, for a variety of reasons, they are not capable of starting mainstream school on completion of the preschool year. I ask the Minister to take the small number of such children into consideration so that the strides they have made during the ECCE year are not reversed by their being left in limbo for a year.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputies for their questions. I wish to make a general point on the overall financial situation first. Restoring the health of the public finances and improving the economy are critical, and particularly important is a return to economic growth. This is especially relevant for children in terms of securing their future opportunities. It is in that context that we must discuss the decisions on funding for the coming year. Deputy Troy's party has suggested a reduction of €1.43 billion, while Deputy Ó Caoláin's party has argued that €837 million must be found. I take Deputy Healy's point that it would be nice if my Department was exempt from having to take any tough decisions, but unfortunately it is not. However, I assure Deputies that we have examined all options and will do our very best to protect front-line services. That is why the points I made regarding reform in areas such as youth funding and the delivery of early intervention services, for example, are relevant. We must keep a sharp eye on reform options. There is scope for savings through delivering services more effectively and efficiently. Indeed, if one speaks to the organisations involved, many have suggestions on how savings and efficiencies can be realised.

The new child and family support agency was raised by a number of Deputies and I thank them for supporting its establishment. I also look forward to their support when the legislation comes before the House. It is a key priority of the Government and aims to act on the legacy of failures in this area. Child protection will no longer be the responsibility of the HSE but will have its own dedicated agency. One of the main issues to be addressed by that agency is the fact that we have not had a standard model for risk assessment, which has had serious consequences, as evidenced by the child death report. It is absolutely essential that we move to such a model and I am pleased to say that Gordon Jeyes is working very hard on that issue and is getting a good response from front-line staff in terms of training and the overall approach.

With regard to failures, we have had limited inter-agency working, which must be addressed. We have also had a shocking deficit of information, particularly national information upon which we can develop our national policy. That is being addressed right now with the introduction of new information systems. We have also had poor budgeting and cost management in this area. One of the difficulties I have grappled with this year is disaggregating the budget for child and family supports from the overall HSE budget. We have had quite a lot of boundary issues to deal with in terms of disaggregating that budget. We have also not had the kind of accountability that is necessary in this area, which was raised by several recent reports. By reducing the management tier from 36 to 19 and having more direct accountability from front line to management, we will deal with that issue.

As Deputies know, the task force reported in July and a lot of work has been undertaken since then. We have identified and disaggregated the budget and the resources, including staffing, within the HSE. I am pleased to say that task has been completed. We have recruited a senior management team for the new agency. We are currently in negotiations with staff and unions and that has been going very well. I take this opportunity to thank the staff, who number over 4,000, for responding positively to what will be a big change for them. A question was posed about one particular group of staff but all I can say about that is that discussions are ongoing. The establishment of the agency per se is not an issue. I attended a meeting yesterday at which a number of issues were raised. Inevitably, when one is moving a large number of staff, issues arise, but we have a good industrial relations system and a good committee working through the issues in the normal way.

Preparation of the necessary legislation is under way. In response to Deputy Ó Caoláin's question, my Department has been working intensively with the Office of the Attorney General and drafting is at an advanced stage. I am waiting to hear from the Attorney General regarding precisely when the legislation will be ready. I said previously it would be ready this term and this term ends in January. I will keep the Deputy informed as to when I will be in a position to bring the legislation before the House, but my commitment to establishing the agency in early 2013 stands and everybody is working towards that agenda. The agency will be up and running in 2013. The legislation will be published shortly but I am not in a position to give an exact date right now.

Deputy Troy asked about the running costs and the general approach to the agency. I am hoping that savings will accrue by bringing the range of services together. Certainly, administrative savings will be made when we bring together the family support agency, the educational welfare agencies and others.

The budget for the new agency was €545 million last year. Clearly, there are considerable demands on the budget. We have worked hard to make savings and to avoid any over-runs in order that we can launch the new agency in a healthy financial state. The budget for the agency next year is not yet decided. It remains within the health budget. A question was asked about where it will be next year and Deputy Ó Caoláin asked a similar question. There is no problem with 1 January because the allocation remains in a separate subhead of the HSE. It is disaggregated and will remain as such until such time as the agency is actually established.

I am hopeful thatas we go into next year the new agency will be in a positive state with regard to the budget. It is an area where there are pressures. There are more demands on the HSE child and family protection side and on the family support side. Gordon Jeyes is working hard with his managers. There is greater accountability now than ever before. I have had several meetings with the senior management team from the child and family support agency designate. We have examined the budgets. There is scope for reform in terms of high level supports for children. We continue to spend a good deal in this area and I believe we can transfer some of this to special fostering arrangements. Savings can be made in that area and in other areas.

Deputy Troy asked about the standards that apply to the early childhood care and education, ECCE, scheme and its continuation.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I complimented the Minister on securing the budget to continue it.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Certainly, we are keen to do that. Deputy Troy also raised the drop in the budget in the early intervention schemes and I wish to explain the position to him. There was a drop this year because the contractual arrangements came to an end. The contract with the philanthropic organisations had come to a natural end and this is what has been reflected rather than a reduction in the service. We have given extra money. Deputy Troy referred to Tallaght. We have given an extra €250,000 this year to the Tallaght project to enable it to continue, a significant amount. I am examining how we can continue with the other projects referred to in Ballymun and Darndale. The key point about these projects is to take the research from them. Apart from giving direct provision in these areas, they were set up to evaluate the various services they offered. We have had several reports, many of which are positive but some of which show that some of the interventions have not worked and that we should not continue with them. We must take the findings from this research and implement them in a mainstream way. I am examining how we can continue the projects in so far as possible. It is a programme for Government commitment which I would like to be able to keep. However, substantial money is involved and it may be that we will have to spend less money in some areas, perhaps the research area. We may be unable to continue funding it to the degree we have done to date. Several research projects are under way at present.

There are ongoing court cases relating to the referendum and, therefore, I believe it would be better if I did not comment on the particular questions because the matter is sub judice.
I hope I have answered Deputy Ó Caoláin's question on the agency and legislation. We are moving ahead with a range of issues, including the budget, the recruitment of the senior team, the management of the team and the negotiations and the preparation of the legislation. There is ongoing contact and communication with all the staff with regard to their transfer. They will all receive letters, probably next week, with details. Most of the staff have been informed of their movement from the HSE to the new agency. We have taken a Government decision to the effect that in the first instance the move will involve the child and family support agency, educational welfare staff and community psychologists and all these staff will come together. The taskforce recommended that some other professional groups should work under the agency as well but some of that is for a later stage and will involve complex negotiations with the Department of Health in respect of primary care and other issues that arise. There will be a dedicated budget subhead for the new agency.

Deputy Ó Caoláin made a point about the Family Support Agency. There are 106 centres and there will be no change in the numbers. There has been no change in the numbers since 2008. There are 257 staff employed. A 5% per annum reduction will be required to find the necessary savings. The funding we give provides for the employment of core staff and it covers some overhead costs. Some staff in the family resource centres have taken pay cuts in recent years although not all. Last year the agency undertook a review of the funding. An examination is under way by the agency of the family resource centres to determine how they are spending and what services they are providing. I have asked for that report and I understand it is due in December. I would be pleased to share the report when it comes in terms of the review of the work. It will go to the agency board on 17 December. The board is planning for the change.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I raised another matter regarding the youth organisations.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I was planning to move on to that. Some Deputies expressed concern about the Family Support Agency. The agency has advised the family resource centres to work with two regional support agencies and to provide support and training to them. That is helpful and we expect they will better manage the types of agencies they are linking with. There has been a 5% reduction but it has not meant any closure of centres. For the most part when I meet people in the family resource centres they explain that they are continuing to provide the type of projects they have provided in recent years and I hope they will be able to continue that. The estimated outturn for the agency remains €26.465 million, a substantial budget. One of the concerns from the agency was that in the creation of the new agency, the ethos of the family resource centres and community development and family support and parenting courses might be lost. However, I have reassured the agency that we fully intend to continue with that kind of family support. Gordon Jeyes has reassured the organisation as well that we are keen to continue such a service. We have no wish to interrupt the ethos that has been so effectively established by the family resources centres.

Ciara Conway (Waterford, Labour)
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Does this relate to Hardiker level 2 and the model?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Ciara Conway (Waterford, Labour)
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One of the greatest concerns with the new agency is that it would deal with all high-need families as we move through the model from Hardiker level 3 to Hardiker level 4. The commitment is in place to continue to work with lower level interventions in and around Hardiker level 2.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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That is absolutely the case. I have remarked to the committee on numerous occasions that we envisage the new agency as being one part family support and prevention. This relates to the Hardiker model to which Deputy Conway referred and the earliest intervention possible, parenting courses, supports to families and child care. The other side is child protection. The advantage of the new agency having the Family Support Agency under its remit is that at intake level, when once carries out a risk assessment, one should be able to refer cases to the right or appropriate stream. This is why it is so important that family support is the model we are working with in terms of the new agency.

A number of Deputies raised concerns about next year's funding for youth work. I welcome the report published last week which I recommend to members. The report published by the National Youth Council of Ireland is an assessment of the economic value of youth work.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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It is included in the committee's work programme for the new year.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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That is welcome news. As Deputy Healy said, it is interesting to note the international evidence of the economic value of early intervention. This has been outlined with regard to early childhood care but not so much with regard to youth work. However, this document provides an outline of the economic value of youth work. I support the development of youth work. Savings of approximately €5 million have been identified in the comprehensive review of expenditure for youth. We are taking steps to ensure that these savings are targeted to the greatest extent possible in order to reduce the impact on projects. I recognise the importance of projects. The local youth club grant scheme supports 1,600 voluntary youth clubs in the country with 90,000 young people availing of their services. No funding will be removed from that scheme. A total of €43.2 million was given to five grant schemes in 2011. Many of these schemes are funding the same projects. These schemes have evolved over time and their objectives have overlapped in some ways. A review of the position on the ground would have been timely, even without the economic imperative to do so. We are working on a reform plan for the five grant schemes with the intention of achieving cost and operational efficiencies proceeding to a new system consisting of one or two coherent schemes based on clear criteria. We have had discussions with various youth organisations. Even though there is a cutback in funding of €5 million identified for next year, the amalgamation of the programmes will give the youth organisations greater flexibility in their use of funding. It will mean that projects can continue.

Our work to date has indicated a significant scope for increased efficiencies and cost reductions within some of the organisational structures. During the past year, my Department and the youth officers working with the VECs have been advising projects on the best actions for achieving savings while continuing to maintain services. From January 2013 the 470 projects involved will receive one funding stream rather than the current situation of multiple-stream funding. This will help the management of the projects. It will mean a more rational allocation from the organisations to the schemes. The Department has adopted this phased approach to enable projects to adapt in advance of the Department's formal value for money review of youth schemes which is to commence next month and to report by mid-year 2013. A number of youth organisations are currently in receipt of very significant grant funding from the Department. For example, Foróige Ireland received over €2.2 million in 2012; Youth Work Ireland received over €2.1 million; Catholic Youth Care received over €1 million. The major sporting organisations are also in receipt of significant grant funding. I wish to reassure Deputies that the youth sector overall still receives significant funding. I recognise the difficulties and I would prefer if there was no need to make savings in this area because the work is invaluable. If Deputies have any suggestions or recommendations I am open to hearing same. I recognise the value of the work and the commitment of youth workers and youth organisations. I have visited the various projects around the country. Deputy Conway referred to the capital funding for the youth cafés. I am pleased it is available for them because we need to support that work.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I hope to ask the Minister for a brief elaboration at the conclusion.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Deputy Healy referred to the importance of early intervention strategies. I hope he is reassured by the funding we have provided for child care and early intervention. I would like if this could be extended and if further funding could be made available. I take his point about the importance of early child care. My Department does not deal with funding to combat domestic violence but I take the Deputy's point that domestic violence has an impact on children. It is my intention to examine what resources we can provide in that area.

I will ask Mr. Breslin to reply to Deputy Conway's question about the rationalisation of the VECs. It is not the same as the SUSI model.

Mr. Jim Breslin:

As there seems to be some confusion in the sector with regard to this matter, we are considering how we can better communicate our proposal in this regard in order to allay misunderstanding. The Department has decided that in 2013 six national bodies currently directly funded by the Department will be funded by the City of Dublin youth services board. This does not affect the other VECs. As the largest funding mechanism for youth services, the City of Dublin youth services board has developed a good quality financial system to govern the payment of grants to youth bodies in Dublin. We plan to take advantage of this system in delegating the funding of the six national bodies to it. We have signalled that we want to examine arrangements for 2014 and this has caused people to infer all kinds of reasons for it. Between now and 2014 we will be undertaking detailed planning work and careful consideration as to how this will proceed. Nothing will be done in a hurried way and we will not put a system in place until we are confident it will work. We have taken some considerations into account. The VECs around the country deal with about 400 grants. On average, the VECs take a 6% management fee for dealing with this funding. We hope to examine this arrangement and its cost-effectiveness. This is not to take away from the statutory role of the VECs. We provide a separate funding for youth officers with whom the Department works very closely. Those roles will be maintained. However, given the significant funding from the Department, we have an obligation to examine whether duplication occurs in grant-awarding mechanisms and whether it could be more cost-effective. We will take our time in carrying out this review. No precipitative action will be taken before January 2013. If any money can be saved in the processing or administrative arrangements, then the funding for front-line projects can be secured. Our timescale is longer than that interpreted by the sector or the VECs.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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On the ECCE programme, early childhood care and education programme, the topic of early childhood intervention was discussed at this week's meeting of the British-Irish Council in Cardiff. I recommend to the committee the background papers produced for the meeting. We had a very positive discussion. There is much to be learned from the policies in other jurisdictions. Scotland and Wales have very interesting initiatives on early intervention. The meeting agreed that there should be an increased focus on early intervention across all the region. Some excellent papers were given at the meeting. I note some very interesting initiatives such as a national parenting programme in Scotland, which could be of value in this country.

I agree completely with Deputy Conway that the issue of quality is a critical consideration. I refer to the Síolta and Aistear programmes which are very good initiatives. Training and further training is being undertaken by the sector. The take-up of higher training grants under the ECCE scheme indicates that many workers in the sector are availing of FETAC qualifications and this is to be welcomed. The quality of care for babies under the age of one is a particular issue. The ratio of carers to children is very high for this age group. I intend to examine this issue in the coming year to see if further improvements can be implemented. I will ask Ms O'Mara to comment on those standards and to reply to Deputy Regina Doherty's point.

Ms Moira O'Mara:

The point was also made that there will be a reduction in ECCE funding for next year. The reduction in this regard is 3% and it actually came into effect from September of this year. As Deputy Troy said, the Minister has managed to maintain the funding for the preschool year. However, the number of children participating in the programme is rising and, unfortunately, it was necessary to make that small cut. The same services have all come back in and we have not have any negative feedback from the sector. In general, people recognise that the programme is being maintained and are pleased about that.

Quality is very much at the heart of what we are doing, particularly as the programme led to the introduction of qualifications and curricular requirements for the first time. Since then, we have been partnering the Department of Education and Skills in the context of working together as best we can in order to improve quality in the sector. ECCE is delivering both the Aistear curriculum and the Síolta framework for the Department of Education and Skills. We are very heavily involved in the literacy and numeracy strategy, which is extremely important. Again, there is a partnership in respect of children moving forward into primary school. We are also working on developing an education-focused evaluation of preschool services in order that we might move away from a purely health-and-safety assessment process.

As the Minister indicated, the key issue which arises is ongoing professional development within the sector. That is another area in respect of which we must work with the existing educational infrastructure and try to get it to adapt to meet our service delivery needs in the context of service development. Again, the higher capitation rate has been a driving force for quality within the sector. When the programme was originally introduced in January 2010, approximately 5% of services qualified for the higher capitation rate. This is where there are graduates in the service. That rate is expected to hit approximately 20% in the not too distant future. This is a major step forward for the sector.

There are issues which arise in the context of how we would determine who would qualify for the second year. There is no funding for this as matters stand. The administrative cost of operating a system that is transparent and equitable for all children would also be very high. If a child has development delay, however, he or she can come into the preschool year at a later age. It is quite common for parents to take up this option. In addition, parents-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for interrupting but a vote is taking place in the Dáil. Perhaps Ms O'Mara might conclude.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I believe we have dealt with all of the questions that were posed.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to pose a few further supplementary questions.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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There is a vote in the Dáil but we can take them very quickly.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister stated that there will be cost savings in the context of the reduction in high-level supports and the move towards more foster care arrangements.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the Minister might enlighten us further in respect of that matter.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I certainly will.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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There is a very good national parenting programme in Longford-Westmeath.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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That is correct. I am aware of it.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister referred to Scotland but I just want to get a plug in for Longford-Westmeath. This very worthwhile programme is due to be extended to Laois-Offaly next year.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Am I correct in stating that the Deputy is referring to the triple-P positive parenting programme?

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Deputy Regina Doherty referred to children with special educational needs who are slow learners. I understand that heretofore there was a facility whereby such children could avail of the second free preschool year. It appears that this practice has been discontinued.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I will address that matter.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The position now is that these children can obtain three days per week in one year and two days per week in the following year. A number of years ago, they got five days per week.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We are cutting it close with regard to the vote. The bells are about to stop ringing.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The funding for youth organisations is being reduced to €51 million from €56 million. There is capital funding for new projects but people are concerned that even though such projects are proceeding, the funding required to run them in the future will not be available.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Gordon Jeyes is examining the entire area of high-level support at present. There is an intention to rationalise the services in order to see if we can move children into high-support fostering. There has never been a national approach to this matter in the past. Mr. Jeyes has assumed overall responsibility for working with the sector on a national level.

I completely take the Deputy's point on the triple-P positive parenting programme in Longford-Westmeath, which we fund. There are quite a number of programmes already in place but what we need to do is agree which ones ought to be sustained in the longer term. When the scheme was first established, the issue in respect of the second year related to transfers. As Ms O'Mara indicated, there are a number of issues in respect of criteria. The ombudsman has ruled on this. It is quite difficult to decide on particular criteria.

What was the Deputy's point in respect of youth organisations?

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I referred to capital funding and-----

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The only capital funding we have at present is that which relates to the youth cafés.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister and her officials for coming before us and for their engagement. I apologise for the hurried way in which we are ending the meeting but there is a vote in the Dáil.