Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I remind people to turn off their mobile telephones if they have not already done so. It is a great pleasure and privilege for me, as Chairman of the Joint Committee on Health and Children, to welcome to the meeting members of the Comhairle na nÓg national executive, namely, Jamie Wiggins, who is from County Donegal, Mairead Coady, who is from County Kilkenny, Éamonn Ó Briain, who is from Limerick city, and Gerard Maguire, who, like Deputy Fitzpatrick, is from County Louth.

Before we begin, I draw the attention of the witnesses to the position on privilege. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing ruling and parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person, persons or entity outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I ask our guests to relax and to enjoy participating in the meeting. I remind them that they will be appearing on television and that the nation and the world will be watching and listening to them. Our guests are most welcome. We are delighted to have them here. I compliment them on taking the time to come before us and I commend them on the work they are doing. I call on Jamie to lead off the discussion.

Mr. Jamie Wiggins:

My name is Jamie Wiggins and I am from the Donegal Comhairle na nÓg. I am going to be telling the committee about Comhairle na nÓg, which is the local child and youth council for each county development board. Comhairle na nÓg is funded and overseen by the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. It consists of young people between the ages of 12 and 18 years of age. Each Comhairle na nÓg holds an open annual general meeting, AGM, at which local young people decide the issues on which their comhairle should work.

Ms Mairead Coady:

My name is Mairead Coady and I am from Kilkenny Comhairle na nÓg. I will be telling the committee about Dáil na nÓg, especially in the context of what it did 2011. Dáil na nÓg is an annual national youth parliament for young people. Some 200 delegates are elected through their local Comhairle na nÓg. The top recommendation for Dáil na nÓg from 2011 related to the need to find ways for young people to influence decision makers in the Dáil, Seanad and local authorities.

Mr. Éamonn Ó Briain:

My name is Éamonn Ó Briain and I am from Limerick city Comhairle na nÓg. I am going to briefly discuss the Comhairle na nÓg national executive. Each Comhairle na nÓg elects one delegate to become a member of the national executive. The role of the executive is to follow up on the recommendations made at Dáil na nÓg and at local Comhairle na nÓg AGMs.

Mr. Gerard Maguire:

My name is Gerard Maguire and I am from Louth Comhairle na nÓg. I will be telling the committee about our aims. We are here today to strengthen the voices of young people through showcasing the work that is done by the different comhairlí throughout the country. Currently, there are 14 comhairlí working on various mental health initiatives and seven working on matters relating to social, personal and health education, SPHE, and relationships and sexuality education, RSE. We are here to discuss the topics of sexual and mental health and to represent the work of the different comhairlí throughout the country and make recommendations to the committee on their behalf. As already stated, seven comhairlí are working on issues relating to sexual health, SPHE, RSE and sexual health services and a further 14 are working on the various mental health initiatives.

Mr. Jamie Wiggins:

On sexual health, the key issues raised by Comhairle na nÓg are that majority of comhairlí feel that the teaching of RSE and SPHE is both inadequate and inconsistent and that more sexually transmitted infection, STI, testing clinics are needed for young people. A number of comhairlí are currently working on the quality of teaching in respect of RSE and SPHE.

In the context of sexual health education, young people in Comhairle na nÓg are of the view that the teaching of RSE is inconsistent and that the quality of teaching varies from school to school. There is no SPHE course for the senior cycle and it is at the discretion of the individual teacher or school as to what topics are covered in class. This is a matter which was also worked on by a former Dáil na nÓg council.

On young people's research on sex education, the 2009 Dáil na nÓg council carried out a survey on the implementation of SPHE and RSE in secondary schools. Some 94 schools in 13 counties took part in the RSE survey and it emerged that: 63% of students surveyed said they never had an RSE class; in 50% of schools surveyed RSE was timetabled into religion classes and 91% of young people felt that learning RSE in school was either important or very important to their education.

The Donegal Comhairle na nÓg has worked on the topic of sexual health in schools. It recently compiled questions to be put to survey students in the Donegal schools in order to discover the extent to which the sexual health element of RSE is being taught in Donegal. It was examining the best way to circulate the surveys to the students to get an honest answer without an influence from teachers and principals.

Ms Mairead Coady:

Several comhairlí are currently working on making STI testing clinics available to young people and providing educational leaflets for them. Roscommon Comhairle na nÓg has been working on sexual health for the past year. It has developed a leaflet which contains common facts and fictions relating to STIs. This leaflet should be released within the next few months. Roscommon is also campaigning for funding for a mobile STI testing facility.

On solutions in respect of SPHE and RSE, young people need a consistent relationships and sexual education curriculum that is the same in every second level school. This can be achieved if social, personal and health education teacher training is made mandatory in order to ensure an acceptable teaching standard. Leaving cycle students need more relationships and sexuality education.

In the context of STI clinics, young people need information about services and require access to such services locally. In addition, more services are needed.

Mr. Éamonn Ó Briain:

This year 14 comhairlí are dealing with topics relating to mental health. Mental health is an issue discussed regularly by all comhairlí across the country. The issues that continually arise in this area are: the lack of mental health services; and the lack of awareness among teenagers about mental health services. The Comhairle na nÓg national executive met Mr. Martin Rogan, the HSE's national direct for mental health, to discuss such services.

After meeting him it was clear that although there are mental health services for young people, they do not know about them or how to access them. Various comhairlí are working on this issue, including comhairlí in County Louth and in Limerick city. The Comhairle na nÓg mental health initiatives are described in the national showcase programme.

The Limerick city Comhairle na nÓg is working on the promotion of positive mental health. It plans to develop a resource pack for young people, including information on local services and coping mechanisms to deal with stress. Its members surveyed 200 young people to find out what stresses them, how they deal with this stress and their knowledge of local services.

Mr. Gerard Maguire:

The County Louth comhairle is also working on promoting positive mental health. To combat this issue, it has developed a mental health smartphone application, which gives hints and advice on dealing with mental health issues. It is the first phone app of its kind for young people in Ireland. It is quick, easy and free to download and share.

What we would like to achieve at today's meeting is to stress that while services are in place, these are not distributed evenly across the country. There is a lack of services in some areas. However, we regard a lack of awareness as being a more significant issue. We ask for an increased effort in publicising the available facilities for young people.

We want to make the committee aware of the work of Comhairle na nÓg and of the importance of these issues to the young people of Ireland. We ask members to contact their local comhairlí in order to learn about the work being done on these issues. I ask them to take the opinions of young people into consideration when making decisions.

Mr. Jamie Wiggins:

We thank the committee members for listening to our presentation. We will answer any questions from members.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the members of the delegation for their very informative, enterprising and sound presentation.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the delegates for taking the time to attend this meeting and talk to members. I commend the excellent presentation. I congratulate Mr. Maguire on the app, which I will download as soon as the Chairman allows me to turn on my phone in a few minutes.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will do the same.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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The app is an excellent idea. I have a question about the stigmatisation associated with mental health issues. Do young people shy away from other young people with mental health issues? If somebody has a mental health issue, do people say, "Oh my God, we don't hang around with that person" or "That person has something wrong with them"? It seems to be a significant problem in this country. Two years ago, in an anonymous survey of all Members of the Oireachtas, which was not specifically about the issue of adopting or having children, more than 50% of people surveyed replied that someone in the Oireachtas with a mental health issue should not have children. Is that not unbelievable? It showed us how stigmatisation is a serious issue. How can the Oireachtas and the Legislature help Comhairle na nÓg in its efforts to destigmatise mental health issues so that having a mental health issue would be regarded as being as commonplace as having a cold?

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I thank the delegates for packing so much into their presentation. I refer to the issue of sexual health. I think the presentation emphasised sexual health over sexual relationships. My husband is Dutch and in the Netherlands much time is devoted to relationship education and awareness. Is it the case in schools that the word "sexual" makes everybody wary of dealing with this matter? Should the emphasis not be more on young people developing relationships of which sex is one aspect? I note the point about access to STI clinics. Are there issues with regard to parental consent for children and young people to access information? Is there a role for youth cafés or other spaces to allow services to be provided in a more informal setting?

I was privileged to attend the showcase organised by Comhairle na nÓg and I applaud the work of the comhairlí on the issue of mental health. I refer to the various media campaigns about youth mental health issues. I ask how awareness can be increased, because we are all agreed this is necessary.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the national executives of Comhairle na nÓg. The age range of comhairlí members is between 12 and 18 years. Some of the topics listed are about sexual health and mental health. I would like to attend one of the meetings. Although this age group consists of young teenagers, these are very serious topics. Who attends the meetings? Are doctors and nurses and other professionals invited to speak at them?

Mr. Maguire did a survey of 200 people on the issue of mental health. What was the feedback from the survey? What types of person completed the survey? I have been a Deputy for 18 months and this delegation is definitely one of the most impressive delegations I have met here. In my view, the delegates are beyond their years, so to speak. I am very impressed.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the delegates for their opening presentation. I am a mother of teenagers. They tell me that as a politician I should get my head around issues. They have other sayings but I could not repeat them here. Mental health and sexual health issues have been taboo subjects for a very long time. I remember a teacher in my school handing out a book in the classroom about sexual education matters. She told us to bring it home and read it. In my view, it should not be part of a teacher's job to teach classes in relationships and sexuality education, RSE, or social, personal and health education, SPHE. This work should be done by specialists such as doctors and other professional health care workers who could come to the schools for as little as half an hour a week. This would be preferable to asking teachers to deal with these matters in religion class or as part of the SPHE programme. Young people today have very different views from mine. I have four children at home who are constantly on my shoulder. They think differently about things. They look at the space differently, whatever that means.

I note that 91% of young people surveyed think that participating in RSE at school is either important or very important. If nothing else comes out of the presentation, we should take note of that survey result and the number of young people who regard this programme as important. Qualified people who can speak openly and honestly to young people should be teaching these classes. In the case of my teenagers, they had no intention of discussing anything about themselves or their friends with a teacher who was also teaching them maths or religious knowledge.

I used to give talks to transition year classes in my local schools. The previous Government introduced a science education policy. A bus used to travel around the country to introduce science subjects to schoolchildren. I suggest using a bus which could travel to both primary and secondary schools and would be staffed by qualified personnel. I suggest it would only need half an hour's class time during the week for students to use the resources on the bus and to ask questions. Booklets are available in doctors' surgeries and in maternity hospitals - such as in the Coombe in my neighbourhood - which describe sexually transmitted diseases. Young people are very aware of these dangers but they need to be educated about them.

The duty of the Government is to consider changes in educational programmes. The SPHE and RSE classes are past their sell-by dates and need to be replaced. I suggest that professional people should be involved rather than leaving it to the teacher who teaches religion.

Mr. Éamonn Ó Briain:

On the question of whether the stigma features throughout the country, I was at a presentation on Tuesday delivered by a member of Headstrong, which is planning on starting a Jigsaw initiative in Limerick. The organisation surveyed young people across Limerick city on mental health, and on the simple question as to what constitutes mental health, the majority of answers referred to drugs, alcohol, depression, suicide and schizophrenia. There was not one positive answer; they were all purely negative. It is difficult to state directly what can be done about it. In Limerick, we are trying to put a pack together promoting positive mental health. At our annual general meeting, we focused solely on what one can do to deal with stress and stay positive. It is a question of going out to promote the fact that there are ways of coping with problems. It is not a question of showing the various illnesses or their symptoms. While doing so is important, it is more important to educate people on how to stay positive at school and deal with stress.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Ó Briain believe his peer group is listening and prepared to offer support and have people look after one another?

Mr. Éamonn Ó Briain:

Definitely. If one puts something negative to young people, one will only receive a negative reply. We found that when one presents young people with positive things to do, including workshops that are based purely on positivity, they work together better and support each other. Everyone supports the idea of promoting positive mental health.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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What is the response to the other questions?

Mr. Gerard Maguire:

Deputy Fitzpatrick is more than welcome to come along to our next meeting, on 3 December, and speak about mental health. It will be in the county council's premises and is to start at 7 p.m. and end at 9 p.m. The elections are held on that day also so it will be a fun meeting to attend.

At our 2011 Comhairle na nÓg AGM, mental health was the main issue, mainly because it is still a taboo subject. That was according to the feedback we received. This year, mental health arose again, and it also arose in 2010. It has arisen for three years in a row. It is obviously still a prominent issue.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Why?

Mr. Gerard Maguire:

There are wider topics related to the issue of mental health. The concept of mental illness includes depression and suicide. There are many sub-topics, including exam stress. This is the main reason, but perhaps if we focused on one aspect, we would have to eliminate the others. The problem is so considerable that it will take years to solve. At Comhairle na nÓg level, a different topic will have to be taken every year.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Reference was made to positivity and the fact that young people will react positively if something positive is put to them. Is this because the initiatives emanate from young people rather than the State or adults? The showcased initiatives are by and for young people. Does this make a difference?

Mr. Éamonn Ó Briain:

Yes, it makes a big difference. The model is much more interactive than others, and that makes a difference. Our AGMs and the pack, for example, are designed for and delivered by young people. By contrast, in school one receives a sheet and must categorise each mental illness, for example. In my school, the teacher has not been in for two weeks. Pupils just received a sheet and were told to bring it home, read it, fill it in, or do what one wanted with it. They were told that if they wanted to study, they could do so. Focusing on a topic makes all the difference.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Maybe young people should design the programme.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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What about Deputy Byrne's questions?

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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They were observations more than anything else.

Mr. Gerard Maguire:

Kerry Comhairle na nÓg had a bus-based youth café that travelled all around the county. Perhaps we could use such an idea but, instead of having a youth café, there could be a sexual health bus. We have worked on such ideas in the past. Perhaps we could talk to those responsible.

Ms Máiréad Coady:

In Roscommon, the authorities are trying to obtain funding for a mobile STI testing clinic. This initiative could be run in conjunction with an initiative to improve the outlook on sexual and mental health. The two could be combined if run properly. If proper funding and supports are provided, there could be a very good and effective service. The problem is obtaining the funding and staff.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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On Deputy Byrne’s point, I used to teach religion, RSE and SPHE. Is the Deputy correct that a teacher may not necessarily be the best person to discuss the matters in question?

Ms Máiréad Coady:

At the Comhairle na nÓg national executive showcase day, I was present at the sexual health talk. A girl stated two individuals visit the fifth and sixth year classes in her school every year to talk openly about their sexual experiences and problems. This develops a conversation. It may have been in Donegal but I am not sure. Where two people talk about their problems, it makes others more likely to open up and talk about theirs.

Mr. Jamie Wiggins:

I agree that there should be an individual other than the teacher. At the last AGM in Donegal, there was a discussion on this matter at which students admitted they ask awkward questions on purpose just to make the teacher feel more uncomfortable or to try to be funny. If people were specially trained to deal with awkward questions, they would be more equipped to respond to students of this mentality.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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That is a good point. Is the recommendation regarding STI testing clinics made universally? Will the services be made available in specific areas? Why was this solution recommended as opposed to another?

Ms Máiréad Coady:

There is no STI testing clinic in Kilkenny. The closest is in Carlow or Waterford. For a young person who does not want to go to her mother to state she may have picked up an infection, getting to Carlow or Waterford is a big deal. She must make up an excuse. It is a considerable issue. If there were a clinic in Kilkenny, one could say one was just going shopping for the day with the girls. This would be easier. It is a problem getting to clinics.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Do legislators and others need to take more account of levels of sexual activity?

Mr. Gerard Maguire:

There is a significant report on RSE. I presume that if there were improvements in teaching in this regard, the incidence of STIs would decrease.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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That is a good point. Have the delegates got views on bullying, including cyberbullying on Facebook? Have they discussed this subject?

Mr. Éamonn Ó Briain:

Many people-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I should have said social media rather than Facebook.

Mr. Éamonn Ó Briain:

My view is probably in the minority. Many people like to play the blame game when it comes to cyberbullying. They blame Ask.fm, Facebook and other websites for what occurs rather than examining what really causes the problem. If, for example, one has 1,000 friends on Facebook and does not know any of them, and if one opens an Ask.fm account on which one can be asked anything, it will lead to problems. If one opens an Ask.fm account but has only 100 Facebook friends, whom one knows, one will not have a problem.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Could Mr. Ó Briain explain Ask.fm to members and other viewers?

Mr. Éamonn Ó Briain:

I do not believe Ask.fm is part of Facebook. One opens an account on the website and creates a link to Facebook, at which point anybody on Facebook can ask one a question.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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One can be anonymous.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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On the Internet generally, including Ask.fm and other chat fora, is anonymity important? Should people have to use their names?

Mr. Éamonn Ó Briain:

Ask.fm is a website that is purely designed for being anonymous while Facebook gives a member's full details.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Would it be better if we all had to use our names?

Mr. Éamonn Ó Briain:

Yes.

Ms Mairead Coady:

People can hide behind a computer screen.

Mr. Gerard Maguire:

I would be more in favour of educating people of the dangers of the Internet because one cannot censor Internet sites. Doing so would eradicate some of the problems.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Are the majority of teenagers aware of the dangers of the Internet?

Mr. Gerard Maguire:

I think they would be. However, for example, some people might not know what Ask.fm is all about. If they were more educated, they might be more cautious. Education is the way out of it.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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That is a good answer.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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What Éamonn Ó Briain said about how one uses Facebook and other sites is important. I have two teenagers at home and I am very conscious they are on Facebook. They know who they should invite as friends. They also tell me exactly what was said here today. We cannot always blame the Internet for people making choices in their lives. This is very relevant in light of some young people committing suicide in recent weeks. It is important parents can talk with their teenagers about who they are friends with on Facebook. I have an open mind about this. I do not stand looking over my teenagers' shoulders when they are on the computer. If I went into their room, they would actually invite me to see some of the comments, as I would know their friends, rather than switch off the site. We tend to blame the Internet for problems in our lives. However, if there was proper education about it and people had better self-worth, it would leave people more confident in saying "No" to cyberbullying.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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To be fair, the most important point is that the term used in social media is "friends". In a politician's case, a social media follower may not be a friend at all. Many of them post messages which are objectionable.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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As well as derogatory.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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If we learned nothing else today, Éamonn Ó Briain's comments about Facebook should be promulgated across the whole of society.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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My point is to build on that. There is also a role for adults. We are giving one message to children about Facebook and Twitter. When adults do not act appropriately on these sites, however, we deal with it differently. We have to take on our responsibility as role models in how different social networking sites are used.

While I agree on the point of the importance of education, there is also a huge power in young people telling their peers how they deal with being trolled and that it is okay to ignore it. It can give young people solidarity that they are not alone in being trolled. When one is in a difficult situation in life and realises one is not on one's own, it makes it easier to get through it.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It is appropriate the delegation is here today because later on in the Dáil the Minister for Education and Skills is taking statements on the proposed new junior certificate. In light of that, perhaps the delegation could give us suggestions on the teaching of SPHE, social personal and health education, and relationships and sexuality education, RSE, in the new junior certificate.

A constitutional convention has been established and I feel it is unfortunate younger people do not have a greater role and say in it. I have requested the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs to engage with the executive of Comhairle na nÓg on constitutional changes. One of the proposals is to reduce the voting age to 17 yet no one under the age of 18 can partake in the convention.

Mr. Jamie Wiggins:

What was said before was that it might be better to have someone from outside the school and who would be more equipped to teach the RSE course.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Should that be an anonymous person?

Mr. Jamie Wiggins:

Perhaps it should be a youth worker, a person with whom students would be friendly.

Ms Mairead Coady:

There was a woman who had a sexual health talk at the Comhairle na nÓg national day. She goes to different schools and spends a double class with them. Students told me they got so much more from her as they she and they tend to be more open with one another.

Mr. Gerard Maguire:

From our research we realised there are not many problems with the curriculum. The problem lies in the approach to teaching it. Different teachers teach it different ways. Some teachers leave out bits that they feel uncomfortable about teaching. The approach needs to be more consistent.

Mr. Éamonn Ó Briain:

It really is at the discretion of the school. One colleague informed us that his school changed the title of the course to religion and sexual health education rather than relationships and sexuality education. There is no managing of how the teacher teaches it. If there were more guidelines on this it would better.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the delegation for its refreshing presentation and ability to answer the committee's questions. This was a valuable exercise and a great experience for us. I hope the delegation enjoyed attending this meeting and found it worthwhile.

As somebody who will be on the constitutional convention we can bring Deputy Troy's point on talking to young people about the younger voting age to the convention.

I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee. We want to engage with them. This part of the Oireachtas is concerned with children, youth affairs and health and they have a right to come in here and voice their concerns and views. They have done so this morning in a clear, cogent and emphatic manner. We have been enriched by their presence and I hope they will appear before the committee again in the near future.

I remind the members that the Select Sub-Committee on Health will meet next Tuesday, 27 November 2012 at 6 p.m. to discuss the Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill. The Select Sub-Committee on Health will also meet next Thursday, 29 November at 9.30 a.m. to deal with the health Estimate. The Select Sub-Committee on Children and Youth Affairs will meet next Thursday, 29 November at 11.15 a.m.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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Is the Chairman sending those to us?

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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It will be sent, yes.

A Member:

Do we have an ordinary meeting scheduled?

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Unfortunately, there will not be an ordinary meeting next week. The next joint committee meeting will be at 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 6 December. We will adjourn until that date. Go raibh maith agat.