Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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This meeting is to discuss progress on the implementation of the Government's public service reform plan. I welcome the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, and his officials, Mr. Reid and Mr. Feeney. The format of the meeting is that the Minister will make some opening remarks, which will be followed by a question and answer session. I remind members to turn off their mobile telephones. Members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I circulated a statement which is quite long and I am conscious of time. I do not know whether the Chairman has a view on it. My preference would be not to read the statement but to-----

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Refer to it.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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-----speak on it briefly in order to leave more time for questions. Is that acceptable?

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Yes.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Most of those in this room have heard me talk about the reform agenda. From the time my Department was established, I have stated that we needed to have an expenditure control Department that also had at its heart a reform agenda. That was agreed in the negotiations on the programme for Government, and hence my Department exists. We have embarked on the programme. We published the plan in November last and we are expeditiously advancing that plan. It is ambitious, and doubly so at a time when we are downsizing considerably the numbers involved in the public service and the payroll bill. As the committee will be aware and as I have stated repeatedly, we want to reduce the numbers by 38,000, compared to peak levels, by 2015 and to reduce the total payroll bill by 20%.

I received Government approval this week - it might be more topical for me to talk about this - to re-examine the Croke Park agreement process. I have had ongoing dialogue with the unions on the implementation of the Croke Park agreement. I commend the engagement of all public servants with the reform and transformation agenda. We have done a remarkable amount in a short period of time, but we need to do much more because the volume of money to be saved from the public pay bill between now and 2015 is insufficient to address unallocated savings.

In particular, unallocated savings in the multi-annual financial framework for next year and 2013 pose a challenge. In light of the additional €800 million in unallocated savings and given the profile of savings expected in the major spending areas of social protection, health and education, it would be an extraordinarily challenging job to make further cuts to those and all Departments.
For this reason, I have been minded for some time to re-examine the public sector pay bill. Some 35% of public expenditure is on public pay, as many services - in the health sector through nurses and doctors and in the education sector through teachers - are people focused and people delivered. It is quite understandable that the pay bill would be a large chunk of expenditure in those areas.
I have something in mind. As I told the Dáil yesterday, I want an additional €1 billion on top of the net €3.3 billion, €3.8 billion gross, that we have targeted by 2015. I want to do this while maintaining core pay as best I can. I do not want to be overly prescriptive, as I have not met the unions yet. They responded positively yesterday evening to my invitation. The public sector committee of congress will meet officials from my Department next week to shape out the discussions that I hope will be embarked upon.
I will give this committee the flavour of my thinking in this regard. I am seeking a transformation of the working week - more hours worked for the same pay and a broader window of normal working from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. so that, if someone works within that framework, one does not attract premium pay. I am also considering how we pay for Saturdays, Sundays and holidays, particularly for services that are provided on a 24/7 basis. This is another challenging body of work on which we have embarked.
I have set out the core philosophy behind the reform plan, namely, placing the citizen at the core of everything we do; maximising new and innovative service delivery channels via, for example, new technologies or new approaches; radically reducing our costs to drive better value for money in everything from shared services to procurement; leading, organising and working in different ways, the agenda to which I just referred; and focusing strongly on implementation and delivery. The action plan that we published last year had timelined actions. We need to deliver them within the timelines as set out.
The Cabinet sub-committee on public sector reform is the main driver to which we report periodically. It is supported by an advisory group of Secretaries General and a reform delivery board of assistant secretaries. Designated senior officials in all Departments, which are responsible for every agency, are driving the change agenda.
We established a reform and delivery office in my Department. Mr. Paul Reid is its director and has responsibility for driving that agenda. I wish to pay public tribute to the Minister of State with responsibility for public service reform, Deputy Brian Hayes, who has been an extraordinary collaborator with me in this work and has done remarkable work, particularly on the procurement side.
I will touch on a few points quickly. We have published the e-Government strategy and launched Ireland Stat, a performance measurement website that is currently in pilot mode. I have asked people to look at it and provide feedback. We have established a senior public service. The idea is to build from all of the different silos of government an integrated public service so that we have free movement of people across the service, better collaboration in the delivery of policy objectives, etc.
A significant reform of the performance management and development system has been agreed and is under way. We have introduced a range of expenditure reforms, some of which I explained to the committee previously. As I stated in my parliamentary dialogue with Deputy Donnelly in the Dáil yesterday, these are elements that we need to advance further. We must take stock of how to undertake the budgetary situation in a more open way, for example, what data are required in a timely fashion and provided via a useful mechanism. We might embark early next year on determining how to deliver the data to the Deputy so that he can embark on an ex ante, rather than ex post facto, analysis of expenditure items.
Yesterday, I told the Dáil that a medium-term expenditure management Bill would be enacted. To date, our multi-annual framework has been implemented on an administrative basis. In accordance with the EU-IMF agreement, however, we will put it on a statutory basis. We have published the legislation to do this.
I have mentioned the whole-of-year budgetary statement and process. Previously, I discussed the public spending code. I have also indicated our establishment of the Irish Government Economic and Evaluation Service, IGEES. I was about to say that it would involve bright new economists. I hope they will be bright, but that remains to be seen. Given their curricula vitae, they are competent people and will be placed across government so that we can have sharp economic advice. In any analysis of the old Department of Finance, the lack of economic analysis is an element that has been criticised. Economic analysis should not reside in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform or the Department of Finance. Rather, economic advice and evaluation should be undertaken at line Department level. I have spoken to colleagues about this matter. Some have indicated a willingness or even an anxiety to have this resource.
I have discussed the Croke Park agreement and do not propose to say anything further only to answer members' questions.
I will bring the committee up to speed regarding political reform. Members know our agenda. The Ombudsman (Amendment) Act 2012 has been signed into law by the President. It is the most significant advance in the Ombudsman's remit since the office's establishment 30 years ago. I thank Deputies and Senators for their co-operation in this regard. The Seanad in particular held a useful Committee Stage debate.
Following Government approval, drafting of the protected disclosure in the public interest Bill, what we call the "whistleblower's Bill", is well advanced and I hope to publish the Bill early next year so that it can be before the House in the next Dáil session. In July, I received Government approval for the drafting of a Bill to reform freedom of information, FOI, legislation and to extend it to all bodies. A general scheme was submitted to this committee, which can make a significant contribution to refining the proposals. I presume it is doing so. I expect to be in a position to publish the FOI Bill when the committee has reached its conclusions. We can reflect on those.
Following the publication of the final report of the Mahon tribunal, I stated that we would examine all existing legislation on the governance of ethics, which is a major job, and consolidate the existing legislative framework. This challenging body of work is under way in my Department.
Recently, I announced that the Government had approved the drafting of a Bill to provide a comprehensive statutory framework for Oireachtas inquiries. I thank the Chairman and the committee for engaging with this process. Some members viewed the timeframe as being tight and would have preferred a longer consideration period. I am mindful of the public demand for an inquiry into the banking sector in particular. We need to have the legislative framework to allow that. Clearly, the Government had hoped to be able to do it in a different way, but the people in their wisdom determined otherwise in the referendum last year. We must do it within the confines of existing constitutional arrangements.
In crafting the new Bill, we have taken great care to be mindful of the Abbeylara judgment and the constraints implicit in previous discussions from In re Haughey to all legal cases. Members will find it to be a robust piece of work.

I am anxious to have that enacted in order that we can move to the inquiry phase.

I am a parliamentarian fundamentally and I like the business of Parliament having oversight and control. I acknowledge the view that once someone migrates into the Executive, his or her view of Parliament becomes more jaundiced and as soon as he or she migrates back, he or she becomes robust in his or her defence of the role of Parliament. The inquiry role of Parliament is a fundamental function that we have not done well here, with some honourable exceptions. I do not know whether a committee member was part of the DIRT inquiry but there is scope for both Houses to be involved in inquiries in a way that not has happened to date and I hope that legislation will enable us to do that.

The general scheme of the Bill on the registration of lobbyists is being prepared and it is on my desk and I hope to bring that to Government in the next week or two. Unfortunately, I will be sending that in the committee's direction for more scrutiny.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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The Minister might give us a little notice. I hope not to find it under the Christmas tree.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am giving notice now. We have a busy work agenda and the committee has had an extremely busy working agenda because it has to deal with my Department and the Department of Finance. We need to have a smooth interaction to ensure the committee can schedule business in a way that is appropriate to the membership.

We have made good progress on an ambitious reform agenda. I am mindful that we have a large public service employing approximately of 300,000 people. We face enormous challenges financially with an ever decreasing ceiling of expenditure but it is also an opportunity for all of us in this crisis to fundamentally examine the way we deliver services and do our business to see if we can do it better, more efficiently and, at the end day, provide a better service to the people who fund us.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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We need to conclude by 11.15 a.m. and a number of members have indicated that they want to contribute. I propose that spokespersons will engage with the Minister for ten minutes and subsequent speakers for five minutes.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for attending. Rather than making an opening statement, I will put questions, as that will be more productive. The first major section of the Minister's statement dealt with public pay and pensions. It would be remiss of us not to deal with the issue of payments to retired public servants. They will be paid today but there are no funds in the kitty to pay them on 6 and 20 December and the Minister must introduce a Supplementary Estimate to pay them. An important aspect of the Department's work is dealing with public finances. Surely it was obvious six months ago when officials knew how many people had retired that this would be necessary. Why has the Minister left it so late? The Dáil will consider the Supplementary Estimate next Thursday, possibly in time for the payments to be processed to arrive in pensioners' bank accounts the following week. Why did the Minister leave it so late to make a statement about this? This should have been done in an orderly, planned manner months ago. If the Minister did not know about this before now, there is something wrong in the system.

Of the 30,000 people who have left the public service over the past few years, the Supplementary Estimate will deal with 3,000 civil servants. It will not deal with pensions in-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will return to discuss the Supplementary Estimate.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We will discuss the detail next week-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will have the officials who are dealing with that with me and all my briefing notes.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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When did the Minister know this issue needed to dealt with? He should have known earlier.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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When did the Deputy know I should have known earlier?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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When did the Minister know? He should have known this last March when the numbers became clear.

What about all the non-civil servants in the public service? Are local authorities expected to make these payments out of their allocations? They cannot go to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government for a Supplementary Estimate but the Minister is in charge of the till for former civil servants. They only represent 10% of retired public service staff. Why is the Minister running to the wire on this?

Will the question of allowances be dealt with in the Minister's talks with the trades unions?

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I will bring in the Minister to reply to the first question because the Deputy will use all his time if he just asks a series of questions.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I would rather deal with it in a structured way when I am accompanied by the officials dealing with it and I have my briefing notes with me.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is okay if the Minister is not briefed; I will accept that as the answer.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is not the answer. If the Deputy wants to answer his own questions, there is no point in me coming at all.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister said it.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The first question was when I knew and the Deputy then said it should have been sooner. He might wait for the answer before coming to a conclusion.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Chairman has restricted my time.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am in the Oireachtas almost 30 years and it is normal for Supplementary Estimates to be introduced at the end of the financial year. There are never Supplementary Estimates early in the year, as the Deputy will be aware. That is the way the process is structured. If it needs to be structured differently, let us have a debate about that. This has been the way for as long as I have been a Member and I am sure long before that. Supplementary Estimates are introduced at the end of the financial year when the full picture is determined because quite often savings are made in other areas of the same Vote and they can be transferred and until a Minister has the full picture, he or she cannot determine the timing or the amount of a Supplementary Estimate. This, therefore, is normal. If the committee thinks a different system might be appropriate, it can examine alternatives.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to progress in public service reform, the Minister is considering the business case for payroll shared services across the public service. He stated five different groups are dealing with shared services for payroll across the public sector - health, education, justice, local government and the Civil Service. Is anybody overseeing over all five? He said his departmental officials are overseeing the Civil Service project. Who is co-ordinating all five projects? Is the Minister ensuring a consistent approach? Is five sectors the right way to deal with it or should it be one or two?

Who is on the Cabinet Sub-committee on Public Service Reform? When was the last meeting?

I mentioned shared services because we touched on SUSI payments during Question Time in the Dáil yesterday. Payments were being made by local authorities and VECs, which were funded by the Department of Education and Skills. Three distinct groups were involved in the process, which probably contributed to the mess we have. Who will oversee the payroll shared services implementation because this cuts across Departments and State agencies? Nobody oversaw the SUSI project and it is an understatement to say it is clear somebody underestimated the task at hand. How do we know that will not happen again in other areas?

Will the Minister revisit the issue of allowances?

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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That is four questions. The Deputy will run out of time and the Minister will not have an opportunity to respond. Can I ask him to respond to the first three questions and then there might time to take the fourth question?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am finished.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The first of the shared services projects is ahead of schedule. We are calling it PeoplePoint. It will be a shared service for Civil Service human resource management and it will be up and running early next year. We are examining other areas that might migrate into that, including pensions. We are also considering whether banking and financial management can be done on a shared basis. There is a structure to look in an overarching way at the reform agenda and that is my Department. The reform and delivery office is about the delivery of reform across the public service and its director is sitting beside me.

His unit in my Department is the overall co-ordinator, reporting directly, as I do, to the Cabinet committee on public sector reform. That committee consists of the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Ministers for Public Expenditure and Reform, Finance, Education and Skills, Health, Justice and Equality, and Children and Youth Affairs, and the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, and their officials. I will supply the Deputy with the schedule of meetings we have had, which take place every quarter. We held one in October and the next one will be in February. We give a report to it and so on. I am anxious to mirror reporting to this committee so that we can be up to date with what is happening with that.

We had the discussion about SUSI yesterday. It predated my Department and the co-ordination that now exists there. The Deputy made a very compelling case yesterday that we should look at it even as a case study for things to be avoided.

I was asked whether allowances would be encompassed in a successor to the Croke Park agreement. The report of the Committee of Public Accounts will be issued today and I look forward to reading it. I believe the Committee of Public Accounts now agrees with me that there are some allowances that are core pay and we should migrate to calling them such so that there is no confusion about it. There are some allowances that are almost anachronistic now. I identified those in my own trawl and am seeking to address them under the existing Croke Park agreement architecture. It will certainly be part of the discussions in what I call Croke Park extension.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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In respect of Croke Park nua, will the Minister finally address the issue of high pay in the public service and Civil Service? By high pay I refer specifically to those in receipt of salaries in excess of €100,000.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We have had this discussion a thousand times with the Deputy. There are cases where a salary of that level is justified. It would be very hard to have consultants of the highest calibre in the hospital system. We are attracting people from the Mayo Clinic or the best hospitals in the United States or Canada who are earning multiples of that. If we were to restrict pay to that level, what the Deputy is saying is that we would not have a public health system.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Just to clarify-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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May I finish my answer?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We only have ten minutes and I do not want the clock run down because I have several questions.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Unless we want to migrate to a system similar to what exists in parts of America with a private health system that people must buy into with limited access for the general public, I do not believe that system would work. That is my judgment on it.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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My question was not specifically aimed at medics.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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They are the biggest cohort of people who earn more than €100,000.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I pose my question in general terms. I want a "Yes" or "No" answer from the Minister. He has been very clear that he will be looking at the working week, premium pay, weekend working and so on. Is the issue of looking at - in whatever fashion - those on salaries of in excess of €100,000 on the agenda? I want a "Yes" or "No" answer.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I frame my answers as I choose. I have said repeatedly that the biggest cohort of people who earn €100,000 are hospital consultants. I am not minded to destroy the public health system and privatise it as would be implied by the Deputy's question.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is of course a debatable point and we do not have the scope for that debate here. I am taking it that the Minister's answer is a clear "No" and that he will not be looking at the issue of very high pay in the Civil Service and public service. That is the answer I ascertain.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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No, it is not the answer. As the Deputy knows-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Minister confirm that he will? The Minister and I have spent recent months debating the review mechanism within the Croke Park agreement and his failure to use it to address this issue.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Through the Chair-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is now moving to Croke Park nua and has a new opportunity. If I am wrong then I want the Minister to tell me that the issue of pay over and above €100,000 is on the table. I want him to confirm or deny that.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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For the third time I will say this. There are people in the public service who earn more than €100,000 and who should earn more than €100,000 if we are to maintain a decent health system that is available to the public. I have said this repeatedly to the Deputy and she knows it but wants to shy away from it. The implication of doping what she wants to do is privatise health care and have it accessible only to those who can afford to pay-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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A Chathaoirligh, the Minister is deliberately running down the clock and misrepresenting my position to boot.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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-----for private health care. The general issue of high pay is something I addressed from the outset. Ministers now earn on average 25% less than Ministers in the previous regime with the Taoiseach earning 30% less. The most senior civil servants earn 30% less than those who went before. This is an ongoing issue that we continue to review to ensure that in everything we do-----

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I am giving equal time to both of you.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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----- it is done in a fair way. I will not be part of the destruction of public services because some people feel there is short-term popularity in advocating a course of action that at its heart they know is hugely destructive of maintaining a quality public service.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What the Minister will be at the heart of is going back to low and middle-income workers, some of whom work in these Houses of the Oireachtas, and telling them they need to work more hours, their premium pay will be reviewed as will all their related arrangements but the gross pay inequity in the system will not be addressed. It is not the medics, as the Minister well knows.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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They represent the biggest cohort.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Notwithstanding the cuts, all the people he listed are all grossly overpaid. Staff in his Department at the most senior levels are grossly overpaid. There is an issue here of fundamental equity and fairness. The Minister is wrongly using the alibi of the old Croke Park agreement to hide behind. He is now moving into the successor to the Croke Park agreement a new agreement with the public service and its workers. If the Government is to have any credibility on the fairness stakes it must deal with that cohort of workers who earn in excess of €100,000. I make that as point to the Minister because he is clearly not minded to do it. I want him to reconsider that position.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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May I answer that question?

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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The Deputy has about four minutes left. Does she want to ask another question before I bring in the Minister?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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As the Minister correctly stated, the Committee of Public Accounts will today publish its report on allowances. A number of issues arose from that very useful examination, which will be evident to people who read the report. What was clear and accepted on a cross-party basis was the extent to which the phenomenon of low pay looms large within our public services. If the Oireachtas is to have any integrity, we collectively need to recognise that phenomenon and say categorically that it cannot sit side-by-side with people who are grossly overpaid. If he is worthy of the position he holds, it is the Minister's challenge to address that issue fairly and squarely.

My final question is on the Minister's Oireachtas inquiries Bill. I have repeatedly written to him pointing out that he is acting in haste on this matter. The people voted in a referendum not long ago and were not minded to give us additional powers of inquiry. That was their democratic prerogative and they took that position. It is a big mistake to rush that legislation without bringing in the experts who voiced concerns on the matter and listening to their views. It will look as if the people voted in a referendum and had their say, yet the Government sets it aside and legislates regardless.

I do not believe we should be party to that. I strongly advise the Minister that he is making a mistake. He should stall matters slightly and give sufficient time for consideration.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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There were four questions. First, with regard to the assertion that public servants in my Department and elsewhere are grossly overpaid, I told the committee that one of the people we recruited recently - I will not embarrass him by mentioning his name - is paid half of what he earned in the private sector. We need to get people of the highest calibre. There is populism in saying that everybody can be paid the same, be they the road sweeper or the brain surgeon. There was an ideology on that as Deputy Higgins will know-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is not the point we made.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am anxious to have quality public services, and there is a balance to be struck. Wages in the public sector and in the private economy went completely out of sync. We have worked hard to deal with that. My general view, and it used to be the general view of the left, is that one must deal with high pay and social solidarity through a comprehensive tax system. One does not pick out individuals-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Government will not do that.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Please, Deputy McDonald.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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One does not pick out individuals because it suits. I have seen the Deputy do that previously. She picks out individuals and excoriates them, as if they are somehow pariahs simply because they have a certain wage rate.

We do this through proper taxation. Whether one's income is from the private sphere, shareholdings or the public purse, income should be regarded in the same way. We deal with the imbalance and social justice through a fair taxation system. That is my view and the view of my party, and that is what we will strive to do in this budget and into the future. It is a big challenge as my party does not have a majority. There is short-term popularity in identifying individuals and excoriating them, but that is a very dangerous road because we are heading towards a fundamental destruction of public service. More and more people are saying: "I would not go into the public sphere to be hauled before a committee and have my family discussed. I would have my fingers cut off." That is where we are going if we take this road.

There were three other issues. One is allowances and low pay. I argued trenchantly on this issue when there was much talk about allowances. I can read out some of the comments made by the Deputy about allowances.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That was Oireachtas allowances and I stand over those comments.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I drilled down into them and went on national radio. People were saying a boot allowance was disgraceful. People were in high dudgeon over a few euro per year. However, we must have clarity and convey it to the public. A good job has been done by the Committee of Public Accounts in that regard.

The Deputy wondered if I am worthy of my job. I have been elected by Dáil Éireann to this job and I will hold it as long as the Dáil has confidence in me. I will not worry about Deputy McDonald's assessment of that, because I am conscious of her assessment of all of us. She resides upon a lovely high stool of judgment.

With regard to the Oireachtas inquiry Bill, the handling of this is a matter for this committee. I presented the Bill to the Oireachtas committee and I am anxious to have it as quickly as possible. However, I am in the hands of this committee in terms of how it deals with it and, ultimately, in the hands of the Dáil and Seanad and how they deal with it in due course.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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I welcome the Minister. I will start with the new Croke Park agreement. I welcome the move to try to achieve further savings. One issue that has been very difficult, particularly for young people and young graduates who are anxious to move into the public service, is the embargo. It has been in place for years. I was speaking to a senior member of the Garda recently who pointed out that it has been in place for four years. He said that if it continues for another two and there are two years training in Templemore, it will be close to a decade in which there will have been no new recruits. That will present all manner of very serious problems. The same can be said of all the services. Obviously, this hits the young more than others.

There are also individual examples. The Minister and I discussed one previously which involved a respite ward. It had to be closed because maternity leave was not exempted from the embargo. There is a systemic problem with this, particularly for the young. It is very damaging and it will follow that generation. Recent research from the IMF shows it will follow that generation for the rest of their lives. Will the Minister consider lifting the embargo to some degree as part of any renegotiation of the agreement?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy makes a very fair point. I am very conscious of this and not only with regard to the Garda, where physical ability is part of the job. Obviously one wishes to have a balance between younger and more senior members in that regard. We also looked at this in terms of the Army. Even in the Civil Service and so forth there must be an intake. I am very mindful of that and, within the structures of reducing employment control frameworks, I will try to shape replacements so we can continue to not only provide a refreshment of talent within the public service, but also to ensure we do not reach a stage where a big gap has built up over five to eight years. I am mindful of the point the Deputy makes.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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The second question relates to the Civil Service. I have looked through the reform plan in detail several times and there are some great and important changes being made. I am keen to see a good, healthy flow of people between the public, private, social and academic spheres. We do not have that to any great extent. It is beginning to happen at the higher level, with two Secretaries General coming into the Department of Finance and the Minister's Department. I did not see anything in the plan that specifically addresses trying to enable that over the coming years and decades. Is that something the Minister is considering?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Yes. Such recruitment is in the programme for Government. There is some debate about it and I would be interested to hear the Deputy's view. My view is that Secretary General level is too high a grade, because it means coming in without knowing the structure. Principal officer level is probably the best grade at which to come into the service, although we have recruited a very capable assistant secretary to be a director of the office of reform on a contract basis. Our new recruits are on contracts. The new procurement officer will be on contract. Again, the officer is from the private sphere. Virtually all recruits to the senior positions in my Department have come from the private sphere, to run the business end of what we must do. Perhaps that must be replicated elsewhere.

However, I refer back to a point I made earlier. We must also make the public sphere attractive. Some of the analysis we have carried out shows that it is not only the money that is relevant. It is also the spotlight and the critique that falls upon people who move into the public sphere. That does not apply in the private sphere. Scrutiny and accountability are important, as long as they are balanced.

I fully subscribe to the notion that there must be far more cross-pollination between the public and private sectors. We are working on that. The Government recently agreed to proposals to second people from the public service to the private sector for a year to gain experience there. That is a good thing. Obviously, there are issues with this. Often some of the big accounting companies offer to let senior people come in and work with the Department for six months, for example. However, there are issues surrounding what line of work they can work on before they go back. Might they have insider knowledge when they go back? That is a balance we must get right as well.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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Transparency would help with that. The more transparency there is, the less insider knowledge one would get because much of it becomes public. I am not suggesting that if the private sector ran the public sector all would be well. It is just as important for public servants to work in the private sector, and the private sector would have much to gain. It would not necessarily be on secondments. What I have in mind is a career path whereby one could do five years in the public sector, five years in the private sector and so forth. It would be useful to look at the public service contract on that basis. We have talked about it in the context of the new public service pension scheme previously, to allow flexibility for public servants to move in and out of the service. It is something the Minister might consider, and particularly the job-for-life culture and rules.

I do not think they do any service to public servants. Some public servants may find that counterintuitive but it does not help that, no matter how well one person does and no matter how poorly another person does, both progress in the same way.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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With the permission of the Chairman, I ask Mr. Paul Reid, as someone who came from the private sector and has been on a contract for just over a year in the public sector, to make a comment.

Mr. Paul Reid:

Sometimes the point is made that the private sector has it right and public service needs to learn from the private sector. This is not always true and some decisions the private sector can make are not open to the public service. We are experiencing high demands for service and the private sector would deal with that by stopping demand. It is not a like-for-like comparison. Having said that, the point is well made and the skills and experience of the public service can be applied to the private sector. The recent proposals the Minister brought to Government allow us to place people in the private sector and vice versa. We are working with private sector bodies to try to move the process through. It is not always like-for-like but certain experiences complement one another. That has been my experience over the past year.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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It would be great for this committee to have oversight of full expenditure. I welcome the openness in terms of improving the process. One of the limitations of the committee is that we just look at what is under this Minister's Department. There is no cross departmental element and it seems the committee is a useful place to take a strategic view, without necessarily having authority over it.

The Minister raised a number of issues regarding the political aspects. The following suggestion requires a referendum. Will the Minister consider removing the stipulation that only the Minister can make an amendment to legislation that incurs a charge on the State? I could not believe it when I realised that we were unable to do that. It requires a referendum but, within the political reform context, if it could be changed it would massively increase the effectiveness of all Deputies and Senators to have an input to the legislative process. Will the Minister consider providing legal expertise to the Oireachtas, akin to the Attorney General? When we propose an amendment, one of the problems we have is that it is virtually impossible for a Minister to accept it because it has not been passed by the Attorney General. Seeing as we cannot propose anything that creates a charge on the Exchequer, at least half of the amendments we consider are ruled out of order. In addition, the amendments we table cannot be accepted by the Minister because we do not have access to a body of experts similar to the function of the Attorney General, which says that the proposal can stand up in law.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy Donnelly managed three questions. Well done.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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That is the value we are getting from the Dáil.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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In terms of overall expenditure, it would be difficult to construct that because, once we allocate expenditure, my Department in conjunction with the Department of Finance examines the umbrella of expenditure. The actual disposition of it falls to a line Minister, which is why we have line Ministers accountable to individual committees. It would be difficult to see how that could be disaggregated. Members of this committee would end up asking me questions about decisions made by line Ministers, for example Deputy Phil Hogan, in respect of expenditure by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. It is better done at sectoral level, where there is a framework for it, with Ministers making decisions at that level.

With regard to the points about the ability of politicians to change legislation, I know the frustration of not being able to submit amendments that create a charge on the State. Bluntly, if it were possible, most Deputies would constantly propose spending more and taxing less and all of that manifests a charge on the State. There would always be a political imperative to do so. One can creatively draft an amendment that passes muster, which is a parliamentary skill that must be learned. It involves crafting amendments that do not fall foul of creating a charge on the State but allow the Deputy to make the argument. If it is compelling, the Minister can accept it.

The Office of the Attorney General has a team of very senior law officers and is the legal authority on which the Government depends. Like all advices, they are advices until they are tested by the courts. Ultimately, the Supreme Court is the ultimate decision-maker on what is a robust constitutional provision. There is a case to be made for it. In my time, we looked at having a parliamentary counsel in the Dáil the first time. We do have a law officer here and the question is whether that can be augmented. I would not like a situation where a Deputy stands up and says that the parliamentary counsel to the Dáil says one thing and the Minister responds that the Attorney General says something different. Then there is a clash. There must be an authoritative legal voice. Ultimately, it is only an opinion until it is tested by the Supreme Court. It is something we must live with.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister and the officials for their presentation. Much work has been done. To put a picture on the numbers, it involves 300,000 people of various ages and genders and abilities and disabilities. It is 3.75 times the capacity of Croke Park - no pun intended - and it is no mean achievement. In the conversation between the Ministers in the finance and public expenditure and reform amalgam, Deputy Howlin is dealing with public expenditure and political reform while Deputy Noonan deals with taxation and revenue. What sort of conversations and scrumdowns do the Ministers have in trying to get the balance right?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I do not think I would ever take a scrumdown with Deputy Michael Noonan. I would lose. We meet very regularly and our offices are in the same building. We discuss all economic policy several times every week. The architecture of the economic management council, about which there has been some talk, is extraordinarily useful. It means there is a coherent debate among four senior politicians every week about overarching economic matters. I have a full understanding of what is going on the taxation side.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is like a rolling strategy conversation.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Papers are being prepared for it all the time in terms of what is happening with ECOFIN and the banking situation so that we can politically analyse it. One of the shocking deficiencies I found was during negotiations for the programme for Government, when Fine Gael and the Labour Party were briefed separately by the main institutions of the State on the finance side. This included the Department of Finance, the National Treasury Management Agency and the Central Bank. There was a lack of co-ordination at a time of crisis. There was no common agenda or hymn sheet, nor was there a common external message going out to our partners through the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. That was hugely damaging. It was one of the compelling reasons to have the creation of the economic management council so that everyone is on message. The strategy is known to everyone and the step-by-step, incremental progress is known to everyone as a common endeavour. That has changed the landscape, particularly for the external view of us.

All ambassadors were called home shortly after the formation of the Government to be told the message and the strategy. That is an ongoing process. As Ministers visit European capitals, particularly those involved in key decision-making for us, we all know the hymn sheet. We know where we are, the key players and the points we need to press home. It has worked remarkably well for us.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I refer to the heading of beefing up the economists across various Departments.

I would add accountants and financial analysts to that because economists look in terms of big aggregates and accountants tend to look at the analysis behind the aggregates and at the explanations and one gets a better understanding. For instance, in the banking sector, there were too many economists and not enough courageous accountants who had a battle experience, or as I call it the Normandy landing experience of portfolio management.

Youth unemployment is a big question in the economy. I heard on the news the other day that the Army Reserve is being slimmed down to 4,000. The Army Reserve and other community-based disciplined activities are a good way to keep younger people motivated, focused and exercised in productive ways. Maybe it would be worth revisiting that decision in view of the fact that unemployment among younger people is particularly high. The Army Reserve is a good way to keep them employed. It is not something to be dismissed because the accounting says one saves so many millions of euro.

The Minister said in July that we agreed a range of actions aimed at achieving a focused and integrated approach to the external service delivery of non-core processes. I am not sure about that. Will the Minister give me examples of how that will be achieved?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy Mathews made a good point about accountants. I was talking to a young official in my Department who had come back from discussions with a line Department, which I will not mention, highly chuffed because he had been accused of being a bean counter and he regarded that as high praise. We need people who can do the sums and say this is what we can and cannot live with and that it is fanciful to try to live-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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They understand balance sheets.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We need that. The Deputy is absolutely right.

I will not go into the Army Reserve issue because that is a matter for the Minister for Defence but I take the Deputy's point on community activity and keeping people activated. Unemployment generally is the number one priority and youth unemployment is a sub-set of that and it is a major issue for us to deal with.

I refer to the external delivery of services, or outsourcing, which is a more common view. I answered questions from Deputy Higgins on this in the Dáil yesterday. We are looking at providing core services more efficiently but not trying to replicate ancillary non-core services which can be provided more efficiently in the private sphere. In the Dáil yesterday I gave an example I happen to know about from a Wexford perspective, and Deputy Twomey would know this well. In the old days, Wexford General Hospital and other hospitals used to have their own laundries but it was very inefficient. Now Celtic Linen or some other company is able to provide on-time scrubs and bed linen to hospitals so one is not trying to replicate laundries in every hospital or agency which needs linen.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I could not understand the English there. Could we have more plain English?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I agree with the Deputy. I keep editing things because I have to say - I hope I am not being critical of any official-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It could have said "shared services, for example, Celtic Linen supplying hospitals in Wexford". I would have understood that. It said that as part of the shared services strategy-----

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I have to let the Minister wrap up. We can advertise some other firm in the next round of questioning.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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In terms of language, the Deputy makes a point on it.
In regard to the point made by Deputy Donnelly, the more people who come in from the private sphere - I hope this is not taken as a criticism of anybody here - the more private sphere jargon appears in scripts and language, which is interesting. If one goes to an IBEC meeting or any business meeting, an idiom is spoken at them which is not plain English. We will try to do better.
Deputy Peter Mathews: A word which also confuses me-----

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Deputy Mathews has played a blinder and he should stop. I call Deputy Spring.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I want extra time for injuries.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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There will be injuries all right.

Arthur Spring (Kerry North-West Limerick, Labour)
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The Minister said €1 billion of savings may need to be made in the public service between 2013 and 2015. What level of engagement has the Minister had with the unions to date on this? How does he think he will achieve this?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We have only invited them in. Basically, I have done the analysis of what we need to do to fill the hole. Over a period of time, I certainly indicated that there was a gap to be filled and that I was looking at the public pay area as making a contribution to that, but I got formal Government approval on Tuesday to invite the public sector unions in to shape out an agenda of negotiations to get that quantum of money over three years. We will not get it all next year but by 2015 we will reduce in real terms the public pay bill by a further €1 billion. I am very glad the public sector committee of ICTU met yesterday and formally accepted my invitation. We will begin that process next week. I will keep this committee informed of progress.

Arthur Spring (Kerry North-West Limerick, Labour)
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Is the Minister in negotiations with the troika? How does it perceive the need to cut the public service bill further?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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There was public comment at the troika's last visit - its eighth visit - that somehow there was disquiet about the Croke Park agreement. I meet it for long sessions at every meeting and I met the head of the current troika team in Brussels the week before he came here and I met him the week before that in Dublin on a private visit. I am in constant contact with him. The troika has never expressed any concerns about the robustness of the proposals because we are actually making the savings.

Arthur Spring (Kerry North-West Limerick, Labour)
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Is it happy with the fashion in which the savings are being made? Does it think more needs to be done or is what is being done appropriate in terms of the savings being made?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Ultimately, what we are working on is a framework of money. As long as the public pay bill is reduced to the volume we have agreed, it does not get into the minutia of that but it looks at public sector productivity and lack of disruption here in comparison to national strikes in Greece, Portugal, Spain and even in more recent times in Belgium and France. We have industrial peace which not only allows public services to be delivered to people who need them - our education and health systems and so on are not disrupted - but it also gives a calm backdrop for external investors in Ireland. We are top of the list in terms of foreign direct investment in recent times. I can tell the committee that is very much on stream with some significant announcements to come.

Arthur Spring (Kerry North-West Limerick, Labour)
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My final question is on the budgetary process. I am conscious that the Government is making an adjustment of approximately €3.5 billion. One third of that will come from taxation and two thirds will come from public expenditure. Is that seen as an appropriate measure in order to drive the domestic economy because we are all very conscious of the fact there are some silos in the economy which have more money and are more involved in the importing of luxury goods, etc.? Does the troika have a view on that? Is it something that is internally negotiated by the coalition?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The balance between expenditure and taxation was something we negotiated in the programme for Government, as the Deputy knows. At the last election, Fine Gael campaigned on the basis of making the adjustment on the basis of 3:1. The Labour Party campaigned on the basis of 1:1. The balance is somewhere in the middle. What is to be done in the forthcoming budget? In current expenditure terms, we will reduce expenditure by €1.7 billion and in capital expenditure terms by €0.55 billion which is already in the capital programme that has been published. That is an adjustment on the expenditure side of €2.25 billion and an adjustment on the taxation side of €1.25 billion. That is €3.5 billion in total. That is the way it will be.

Arthur Spring (Kerry North-West Limerick, Labour)
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Is the troika stating that is the most appropriate way to keep the domestic economy going? Does it have an input in that regard?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It does not express a view on that sort of thing. That is a political settlement at which we have arrived between the parties in government.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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The public sector unions met the Minister earlier this week. As we are approaching the concluding period of the Croke Park agreement, is it the Minister's view that we will move towards a second Croke Park agreement?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I have classified it as an extension of Croke Park - someone asked if it was the Nally Stand. I do not want to end the Croke Park agreement; the architecture of which remains in place until the end of next year. I am not invoking clause 1.28 of the agreement that would collapse it; rather, I am saying we need to go further than the agreement allows to reach the targets we need to achieve. We want the unions to come to talk to us in order that we will be able to see on the Government side if we can achieve more in terms of savings - the additional €1 billion I require - and from the unions' perspective, we can give them and their members a longer profile of certainty on the guarantees provided under the agreement that there will be no compulsory redundancies and that core pay will be maintained. The view has been expressed by some that working longer hours for the same money represents a pay cut. I am trying to protect core pay because I understand how fragile people's economic circumstances are. It would be preferable for them in the current climate to work the additional hours and maintain their income stream. That is the level of engagement sought and I want to get cracking on the matter.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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On the macro issues involved and the troika, perhaps I did not hear Deputy Arthur Spring's question fully, but is the IMF stating the multiplier effect was far greater than expected? That is a significant admission on its part. In subsequent discussions was there a rethink on the part of the IMF about the merits of cutting as a means to improve the economic situation and spur growth? The logic seems to have been that if we were to do this, we would somehow attract private investment. However, there is no sign of an increase overall in investment. Every year since 2007 the level of investment fell substantially until 2011, the figure for which was down on that for 2010 in terms of gross domestic capital formation. Where are the indications that the cutting approach is encouraging investment? Overall, the level of investment is down.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will answer that question in two ways, first in terms of investment and then in terms of austerity. On the investment side, Ireland has done extraordinarily well in recent times. I have instanced the level of foreign direct investment, which is unprecedented. There is an extremely healthy flow of investment from foreign companies which want to build a stable platform here, with not just an important knock-on effect in the construction sector but also an important long-term employment effect. If we look at the bond issue by Bank of Ireland this week, it managed to yield €1 billion and was oversubscribed by multiples of this figure. People want to invest in an Irish bank, which is extraordinary when we consider the situation a year ago. If we look at Irish sovereign bond yields yesterday, we could have gone to the market yesterday and funded Ireland at an affordable rate for the first time since 2010. Whatever formulation we are using, it is working.

People ask if austerity is working, as if we could decide that it is not and that we will not do it anymore. That is not the choice the Government has. If we were to determine that we were not going to meet the reduction thresholds agreed with the troika, it would stop giving us money. It gives money on a conditional basis and if it stopped doing so, we would have to meet current expenditure from current income, leaving a gap of €15 billion, which would be horrendous to try to close in one year. In getting money from the troika we have gained a period of time in which to work towards a balanced budget and we are doing so successfully. Last year the deficit target was 9.6% and the outturn was 9%. Although growth figures for this year are lower than anticipated because of external turbulence in the eurozone, the deficit target for the year is 8.6% which we are confident we will comfortably meet. Our target next year is a figure of 7.5%. We must work strategies in the budget to achieve it.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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We disagree substantially. People need to know in considering the macro position that of the figure of €15 billion that is always repeated, €9 billion is interest on debt. The Minister should admit this publicly.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will give the exact figure for exclusive debt we must pay. If we talk about banking related debt, I will disaggregate it and send the Deputy the exact figure on a current basis. The figures are substantial.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I have looked at them. In 2007 the debt was €47 billion and it is now €196 billion. That huge increase is the direct result of the bank bailout and the economic collapse resulting from the activities of banks and financial institutions. I consider all of it odious and unacceptable debt.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy is absolutely right, but the tax base collapsed also by a figure of 30%. Even if we could stop the clock and say all of the banking debt should be taken away, the State's income stream fell by 30% but our outgoings did not.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I accept that.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We are running a current deficit to meet for day-to-day expenses.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I accept that, but I am making the point that the primary deficit is considerably smaller and that there are other ways to bridge it. I argue that to finance the other aspect of the debt, we are doing things that are preventing us from closing the deficit through the generation of growth. The primary deficit is manageable and we could deal with it through a change in tax policy and greater levels of investment.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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What the Deputy is saying is not wrong, but it is just not practical. It is like saying the value of my house was €500,000 and that it is only worth €200,000 now but I will pretend and carry on as it is still worth €500,000. The reality is that the previous Government made the disastrous decision to nationalise the banks' debts. My party and I voted against it. That was what we were lumbered with and we cannot make it go away by saying we will not pay it anymore because there would be enormous consequences if we were to do so.

The Government has three strategies. I sound like a school teacher when I say this because I repeat it all the time but it is important to now what these strategies are. First, we must work towards having a balanced budget - so-called austerity - because ultimately we must achieve a balance between what we take in and what we spend. That is self-evident. Second, we must have a growth and jobs strategy which we doing our best to put on the European agenda. I launched the €2.25 billion stimulus package and we are seeking further elements to augment it.

The third element of our economic strategy aims to deal with the point the Deputy has been talking about. There are two parts to the bank overhang issue. The Deputy knows we are working might and main to deal with the promissory note before it next becomes due. We are determined to do that.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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We will agree to disagree on those issues. At least we have aired them. I will move on to the question of public sector jobs. Despite what the Minister has said about the focus on stimulus, etc., his projections for next year are absolutely flat in terms of jobs. Is that not correct?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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No. I have to say-----

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Does it not indicate that whatever we are gaining on the swings, we are losing on the roundabouts?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The medium-term fiscal plan we have published provides for a flat projection if there is no policy change. The policy change will come in the budget. We will spell out the impact we expect that to have on the multi-annual financial framework, including the projection for jobs.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The medium-term fiscal framework currently provides for no change in unemployment levels next year. Is the Minister predicting that as a result of measures to be introduced in the budget, we will see an overall net increase in employment, or reduction in unemployment, next year? I do not see how that can be the case if we are simultaneously committed to continuing to reduce public sector numbers.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The budget is the platform for certain instruments to be announced. We are very limited in the number of instruments we can adopt. I do not want to make more of it than it deserves. The publication that used to be known as the pre-budget statement is now known as the medium-term financial framework.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I am studying it very carefully.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It sets out the economic parameters within which the budgetary arithmetic is being drawn up so people can be informed about that. On 5 December next, we will present the budget, setting out all the taxation and spending adjustments that we propose. We will also outline other measures that we intend to implement across the economy. We will be able to project the impact that the contents of the budget will have on our estimates for jobs, etc. Given that the instruments available to us are limited, it is clear that the impact will not be enormous.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I would like to focus on the Minister's plans for information technology. In the long term, this country has to develop an IT policy and get IT working properly throughout the public sector. A piecemeal approach is being taken across the various sectors at present. It is amazing that some schools are using iPads while other schools have nothing other than the most basic IT supports for their students. The implementation of IT in the health service is quite chaotic, although some fantastic projects are coming on line. Is an IT policy and implementation group overseeing this area across the public sector as a whole? It is especially important given that a huge investment is to be made to encourage software and IT multinationals to come here, as the Minister has pointed out. What is the Minister's view of the future of this sector? What are we doing about it?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I ask Mr. Reid to answer the Deputy's questions.

Mr. Paul Reid:

I will refer to a couple of actions in the reform plan in addressing the Deputy's questions. First, we have established a CIO council-----

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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More jargon.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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CIO stands for chief information officer.

Mr. Paul Reid:

One person will oversee all of the ICT capability across all Departments and all the major sectors. We are getting closer to having a single view of what is happening across the entire public and civil service. Second, the Minister brought proposals for an overall ICT strategy to the Cabinet earlier this year and an e-government strategy has been agreed by the Government and published. There has been a great deal of engagement with the industry on that strategy. Third, the Government recently approved a cloud strategy for the future provision of Government services. In essence, that provides a facility for us to consolidate some ICT infrastructure into more single computer centres and single data centres. That will lead to a reduction in the costs associated with the provision of services. It will also allow us to move towards paying for services on demand, or on tap, at some future stage. The cloud strategy allows one to buy what one needs from a private vendor on top as required, rather than buying a bulk architecture and being responsibility for its maintenance. That overarching strategy will enable us to reduce costs, get a wider oversight of the ICT infrastructure and provide more services on-line. Citizens can engage with approximately 400 services on the e-government website. There has been a dramatic improvement in that regard over the last 18 months. This is covered in the plan. It was recently noted in an EU report that Ireland has moved from being capable of providing 37% of services online to being capable of providing 44% of services online. We have moved from being below the average for the 27 EU member states to being above it. There is an overall strategy. A wider view is being taken.

Deputy Fleming asked about shared services earlier. That will be part of our ICT infrastructure in the future. One of the emerging issues in our plan for shared services is the need for multiple releases of similar systems around the various centres. We currently have 18 payroll processing centres on various releases of a single core pay system. If we consolidate them into a shared service, it will allow us to have one platform release and to reduce costs. Our plan involves a combination of wider oversight, the e-government strategy, the ICT strategy and the shared services approach.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. Reid talking about a top-down, bottom-up ICT policy unit? Some schools are moving towards the use of tablets and away from the use of schoolbooks. Is there a policy of pushing this, encouraging this and driving it forward? I know from my experience of general practice that some practices are now completely paperless. The one time the GP uses a biro is to sign a prescription. Other than that, it is completely paper-free. Does Mr. Reid believe we can drive this further by focusing on IT penetration on the front line? Many of the things he discussed relate to the macro level, but I am talking about services on the ground. Is that policy going right down?

Mr. Paul Reid:

It is working across all the sectors. The bottom-up feed is helping to inform the overall strategy. All of the main sectors - health, education, justice and local government - are involved in informing the overall ICT strategy. It is fed from the top down and from the bottom up. Many of the initiatives that are in place are grounded in the bottom of front-line services.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister and his colleagues. I am always confused by the distinction between the Civil Service and the public service. I think I have a handle on the difference now. I wonder whether it is useful to distinguish between them as we try to work with unions to get more from less while delivering better public services to the public. Is it time for that archaic distinction to be looked at? The Minister spoke about the free movement of people across the public service. I think there are over 300,000 people in the public service. Do we not need greater flexibility to provide for cross-agency movement of staff between the Civil Service, the public service and the local authorities, etc.? I am often contacted by people who are working in Dublin and looking for a transfer down the country. The obstacles and barriers they encounter when they try to secure that kind of movement are misplaced in today's circumstances.

I acknowledge that the Croke Park agreement has delivered in some respects. I am also of the opinion that some of the so-called achievements could be seen as box-ticking.

From recent personal experience, I am irked by the difficulty one has in arranging a parent-teacher meeting outside school hours. Despite teachers working an additional 2 million hours nationally, the number of contact hours has not increased in most primary and secondary schools. It appears that teachers are starting the working day earlier with a meeting or roundtable discussion before teaching of classes commences. Many teachers will acknowledge that they have ticked a box in this regard. I am not sure what additional hours have been provided for members of the public. We need tangible outcomes.

In the context of the further engagement on the Croke Park agreement sanctioned by the Government, I welcome the commitment to engage in dialogue given by the public service unions. Is the Minister factoring into the arithmetic for the budget which will be announced on 5 December additional savings in 2013 pending the outcome of this engagement, even though it has not yet commenced?

The Minister indicated that recent borrowing rates would have allowed us to fund the State at an affordable cost. While these are important indicators, unfortunately, the trickle down effect in terms of how such barometers deliver for citizens is a more longer term prospect. The worst manifestations of the crisis are unemployment, emigration, etc. We need to get a real handle on the profile of the live register in areas such as youth unemployment and the long-term unemployment rate. Prospective employers should be able to log on to the Department's website and find out how many IT specialists, plumbers or other specialists are available in their locality. This type of profiling of the live register is long overdue and a glaring defect which needs to be addressed. Are there proposals to address this matter through reform?

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I remind members that the Minister must leave at 11.15 a.m.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy raised a question regarding the difference between the Civil Service and the public service. Civil servants - "servant" is a lovely word - are those who work in government, while the term "public servant" refers to everybody else who is employed in the public service, including gardaí, teachers, nurses and doctors. Our ambition in the programme is to build an integrated public service for the first time. We started by trying to build an integrated Civil Service and we have established the senior Civil Service for the first time. I probably embarrassed somebody when I referred at a previous meeting of the joint committee to an occasion when all of our ambassadors were called home. Most ambassadors are at assistant secretary level, with a small number at principal officer level. I used the opportunity to bring together all of the assistant secretaries in the public service to discuss the reform agenda. One of the issues about which I spoke to them was integration and free movement across the public sphere. The meeting attracted a good audience and I went through the reform agenda. Following the meeting, one distinguished ambassador who I will not embarrass by referring to him by name followed me out and said, "You did not mean us, of course." He had the notion that it would not be appropriate for civil servants from uncouth Departments to be arriving in the Department of Foreign Affairs. Barriers must be broken down to achieve the integration we seek and move people across Departments. This is a work in progress.

I do not share Deputy Michael Creed's scepticism about the Croke Park agreement being used as a box-ticking exercise.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I am sceptical in some respects.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The agreement is a fantastic enabler of change. The Deputy will remember the old days when moving people to a better office meant paying them a movement allowance and one would have a work-to-rule and God knows what else. All of that has been blown away. We are moving people up to 45 km from their base and thousands of public servants have been moved on that basis. We have also changed rosters to fill gaps. This has worked well where management has been proactive. Problems have only arisen where middle management has been inactive in driving change. We need to get on top of this issue. One will always hear anecdotes about whether extra hours in teaching are being utilised in a practical way. One of the things I have to do is ensure extra hours we secure across the public service migrate into pay savings.

On the trickle down reform agenda and unemployment, the latter is a significant issue. The joint committee may wish to examine the structure of the live register, on which I agree with Deputy Michael Creed. For example, I know of people who have retired from the main banks, having paid a class A stamp throughout their careers, and because they are not old enough to receive an old age pension, they are obliged to sign on to maintain their stamp. They are not looking for work in any real sense, yet they are counted as being unemployed. We need to disaggregate those who are really unemployed from those who are not really unemployed and dig down into the live register. This is a process in which the Departments of Social Protection and Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation are engaged.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for his briefing and engaging in a lively discussion with members. I remind members that a French delegation wishes to meet them at 3 p.m. in the Ceann Comhairle's dining room and ask all of them to attend.