Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Mr. Alan Jagoe, national president of Macra na Feirme, Mr. John Joyce, chairman of the agriculture affairs committee, Mr. Derry Dillon, agriculture affairs manager and Mr. Edmond Connelly, CEO.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and the witness continues to so do, the witness is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and witnesses are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. Jagoe to make his opening statement.

Mr. Alan Jagoe:

Thank you, Chairman. I thank members for the opportunity to address the committee on the upcoming budget on the main issues of importance to young farmers. To begin I will say a little about Macra na Feirme. We are an organisation for 17-year olds to 35-year olds representing both young farmers and young people in rural areas. Agriculture is our main focus. We have up to 8,000 members. Since May 2011 approximately 50 new clubs have been set up around the country which gives an indication of how important young people in rural areas consider agriculture and wish to be involved in an organisation such as Macra na Feirme, which provides them with opportunities, respects their views and opinions and lobbies on their behalf. As president it is my job to represent their views and opinions and to lobby for them.

I am a dairy, beef and tillage farmer. I farm in partnership with my father in the south of Cork. It is a very challenging time for young farmers but among the challenges there are huge opportunities which we will outline in detail. I am aware that the committee has met several of the other farm organisations. Overall, we are supportive of their main policies for the future agriculture budget. Today we will focus on the young farmer element within the budget. The greatest challenge for the industry continues to be structural change. Budget 2013 must facilitate the readjustment in primary agriculture and as a result both drive competitiveness and increase exports. The main structural barriers are the age profile of farmers and land mobility. According to the Department, in 2010 only 5% of Irish farmers were under 35, approximately 6,200. To put it another way, there are as many farmers under 35 as there are over 80. It is a damning statistic of which no one in the industry can be proud.

By contrast, the demand for education is at an all-time high. Greater numbers of young farmers seek to start up farming in their own right and they are looking for other options in the coming years. To facilitate that we must maintain the few tax reliefs that are currently in place to curtail the reduction in young farmers and to encourage the transfer of land to the next generation. Land mobility is an area of great concern to young farmers. Traditionally, the unique family farm model we have in this country has facilitated land fragmentation. There are approximately 3.5 parcels of land per farm in this country. A specific recommendation in the Food Harvest 2020 document outlines that the Department should consider policy options to address increasing land fragmentation. Those would include support mechanisms to aid consolidation such as the introduction of a targeted roll-over relief for land sales.

We recently undertook a study with the IFA, the Agricultural Trust and the Department on succession and land mobility. Some of the initial findings were that 48% of those surveyed have no identified farm successor. The report is nearing completion and will be circulated to the committee upon publication. The document will help Macra na Feirme and other stakeholders such as the committee to shape new policy and incentives to encourage greater land mobility. Collaborative arrangements such as farm partnerships or shared farming must be further developed and expanded.

From a young farmer’s perspective budget 2013 must facilitate taxation, investment, land mobility, education and competitiveness. Under the taxation heading we are looking at two reliefs, namely, the young farmer stamp duty relief and agricultural relief. The stamp duty relief is vital to encourage the early transfer of land to a young trained farmer. To complement that, we seek the continuation of agricultural relief at its current level of 90%. On the basis of a 20% reduction from 90% to 70%, a 100 acre farm worth approximately €10,000 an acre is worth €1 million. The 90% rate will allow a farmer to reduce the tax liability on the farm to €100,000, which would bring it under the tax net. If that was to change to 70% the tax liability would be €300,000, which means that a 20% reduction would have a tripling effect on the other end, which would bring such a farm into the tax net and it could be liable for a tax bill of in excess of €15,000. For a 150 acre farm the tax bill for a young farmer taking over could be up to €60,000. That is a sum of money no young farmer could face paying at a time when there are no incentive schemes or installation aid for them. I will hand over to Mr. Joyce who will speak on investment and land mobility.

Mr. John Joyce:

I wish the committee members a good afternoon. My name is John Joyce. I am chairman of the agriculture affairs committee of Macra na Feirme. I am also a full-time beef and sheep farmer in north Tipperary. I started farming with my father straight after agricultural college. I have availed of many of the reliefs and I know how important they are to young farmers. Without installation aid they are of even more importance.

In addition to what Mr. Jagoe outlined, another relief of concern is 100% stock relief, which is due to expire at the end of December 2012. This relief allows young farmers to offset an increase in the value of their stock against tax liability. We seek that it would be extended up until 2020, not just for one or two years, in order to further the objectives of Food Harvest 2020.

Partnerships are another investment initiative. The Department must remove any remaining obstacles to partnerships, including allowing just one disadvantaged area aid payment. Many other collaborative arrangements could be introduced to help land mobility and the transfer of farms to younger people. Macra na Feirme is a proactive organisation. In terms of the problems in agriculture, the elephant in the room is land mobility. Anyone involved in agriculture will see it that way. As a young person I invested heavily in my farm and I developed it as much as I could.

The biggest problem I envisage at present concerns land mobility and getting my hands on land to expand. This is the same for any other younger farmer.

While we can all talk about emigration and young people with no jobs, we must realise the agriculture colleges are full to the brim with young people who want to start off in farming. We have the land in Ireland to farm and produce food. It seems that nobody has dealt with this issue for years. As Mr. Jagoe stated, there are more farmers over 80 than there are under 35. We seek long-term land leasing and tax exemptions for those over 40. Initiatives such as the various supports for young farmers, including new entrants to the dairy quota scheme, are required. Macra na Feirme proposes a new low-end restructuring relief.

With regard to my business, land mobility is a key factor for anybody who wishes to increase farm size. Many young farmers' parents may not be old enough to retire. We do not want to push people off the land or to be seen as land grabbers. Macra na Feirme was one of the first organisations in the country to consider this issue and I hope it will be able to deal with this in the next few years. The problem does not arise this year alone; it will be a problem for years. We do not want farmers to vacate their farms but to retire from their farms with dignity. Many people refer to pensions and pension funds, but people have a pension in their own farm. There are many arrangements worldwide, from share farming to long-term leases, that we could adopt. I hope that between the two generations, we can move forward and work something out.

Mr. Alan Jagoe:

Support is required for education and training. As Mr. Joyce stated, the agriculture colleges are full to the brim. It was not too long ago when Teagasc was trying to close down some of them. The colleges are full along with many third level colleges that are focusing on agri-food, agri-business or science. The graduates are going out to work among the 300,000-strong workforce. They are working directly in the agri-industry. There is spin-off employment for those who provide services to that industry.

Recent proposals for means testing must be opposed. The land that a farmer farms is his or her equipment that aids him or her in generating income from that farm. The idea that a farm itself should be used in determining whether a son or daughter may avail of potential student grants is ludicrous.

Macra na Feirme continues to educate and train its members in many different ways. For example, just last week we saw a group finish a very intensive dairy directors' programme, which was run in conjunction with ICOS. The very intensive programme is giving our members the opportunity to further their skills and education. This is the second year of the programme. Students in last year's course spent three or four days in Holland with FrieslandCampina, a very successful co-operative. It was a case of working with and listening to our counterparts in Holland to understand how they work.

Mr. Joyce referred to efficiency programmes, including the dairy efficiency programme, DEP, and BTAP. These are very successful programmes and they have encouraged 6,000 dairy farmers and 7,000 beef farmers to enter schemes. We want to see the schemes expanded to include sectors such as the sheep and tillage sectors. The DEP is coming to an end. We encourage the committee to facilitate an extension of the scheme to encourage new entrants to join discussion groups.

I ask Mr. Edmond Connolly, our chief executive, to make a brief statement.

Mr. Edmond Connolly:

I would like to say a few words about the organisation of Macra na Feirme. We are supporting a new breed of agricultural entrepreneurs. They are intelligent, well-educated young farmers who are ambitious and have very high expectations. They are buying into concepts such as the need for sustainable, intensive agriculture, favourable economic horizons for food, and the scope for technology adoption to improve prosperity. However, young farmers need excellent support services, both social and technical, and this is what Macra na Feirme provides. We are fulfilling this role in a variety of ways. We have an excellent club and county structure, and this is primarily volunteer led. We have a very small, dedicated team of professionals that supports the volunteers. There are 14 full-time staff equivalents. We have young farmer development groups in every county. We have discussion groups, dedicated training programmes, such as the young dairy directors' programme with ICOS, leadership training and other programmes. We are involved in industry study visits throughout Ireland and abroad. We are involved in personal development programmes, including public speaking and debating, and various others.

I make these remarks in the context of very high levels of youth unemployment. There are serious issues arising in society regarding mental illness, particularly among the young. There is a need for balanced regional development. This has been long acknowledged by the State. We are operating in an environment in which a small amount of support for a national organisation could have a considerable multiplier effect by way of delivering support services for rural young people. It would be very much aimed at furthering their continuous professional and social development.

We are very fortunate to be supported by the Department of Children and Youth Affairs through the youth services fund. The allocation is relatively small, amounting to less than €500,000 this year. However, it is being cut continually, thereby seriously undermining our ability to deliver our services. I am sure most organisations and interest groups say this. However, with what we regard as a tiny amount of seed capital, organisations that are volunteer led and which have a considerable volunteer network – we have a volunteer army supporting young farmers – with a small dedicated team of professionals can achieve so much. Our membership has increased over the past three years, as Mr. Jagoe said. Fifty new clubs have arisen in the past 18 months. Our participation levels have increased, as have our activity levels. We are active at local, national and international levels. A very small amount of seed capital could result in considerable dividends for the Stage in respect of the well-being of a sector that is part of the productive economy.

Mr. Alan Jagoe:

This year's budget presents the opportunity to create real change and build upon the work already done. In a sector that is growing and expanding, we are seeking the Government supports to ensure we can capitalise on the opportunities that arise. We do not want our highly skilled and motivated young farmers emigrating to work in other countries when their skills and expertise can be used here to make Irish farming more efficient. Budget 2013 should facilitate file transfer and support the next generation of farmers. The economy needs young farmers to deliver for it, but the budget for 2013 must deliver for us.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Jagoe for his concluding comments. Nobody could disagree with much of what he said.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the delegates for their presentation. They largely pushed an open door as far as many of us are concerned regarding the future of Irish farming and encouraging young people into the industry. It is quite frightening to realise that only 5% of farmers are under 35. The figure is similar to that pertaining to farmers over 80. This is alarming and we must determine how to deal with it. Both Government and Opposition parties have an onus to create initiatives whereby young people are encouraged into the industry and elderly people are encouraged to step back. The loss of both installation aid and the early retirement scheme, both of which complemented each other, had a detrimental effect in this regard. It is necessary to put in place schemes that make up for the deficit. This is of considerable importance if more people are to become involved.

With regard to the abolition of the milk quota and the opening up of the market in that regard, do the delegates believe the ability to restructure will complement the forthcoming opportunities?

Unless restructuring is forthcoming through land mobility or whatever, it does not appear as though the potential and opportunities can be realised.

On education and creating obstacles regarding the assets, that is, the actual farms being a hindrance to people accessing a proper and full education, I am a great believer in the huge benefits from such education, more so now than ever before because farming has become so professional and technical. I note my own son attended Pallaskenry Agricultural College. I grew up on a small farm at a time when the world was a very big place and the educational side of it was learned from previous generations. How do the witnesses envisage the potential for the future in this regard? Mr. Jagoe mentioned the proposal that assets be included as part of the means testing process for the education programme. Certainly, this issue must be examined and if one is going to means test in this regard, it should be based on income and not simply on an asset on which one is working. I believe that makes logical sense. Land leasing tax exemptions will be of crucial importance to make available farms for the younger people to take over. Were people in their late 50s or 60s able to lease their land and have such tax exemptions it certainly would be an encouragement to an extent and would go some way towards compensating for the ending of the early retirement scheme and so on.

A long time ago, I learned how to speak in public when a member of Macra na Feirme. I can recall being a member back in 1967 or 1968, when it undertook public speaking campaigns. That was the first time I ever spoke in public and was the last time for a long time thereafter. Consequently, I wish all the witnesses well.

Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their contributions today. In common with Deputy Ferris, I find myself in agreement with many of the points made, particularly in respect of capital assets for student grants and the need for this to be related in income and not just for farmers. This is a potential issue for all small businesses and business people nationwide and, hopefully, it will not be an issue. As for land mobility, it is important to acknowledge the moves that were made in last year's budget. The witnesses themselves observed that not all of them come at a huge cost but they involve some thinking outside the box. Moreover, they will require the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, to consult with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, because many of them pertain as much to finance as they do to agriculture. However, progress must be made in this regard.

As for land mobility and land consolidation, the recent construction of motorways through my constituency of Kildare South in the area around my home left a huge problem whereby small parcels of land were left on either side of a motorway. Were changes introduced to the tax system to provide some relief in this regard, one could have a system in which it would make more sense for such small parcels of land to be consolidated as farmers could carry out a swap. As this is not happening at present, it would not really be tax foregone as such transactions would start to happen. The position is similar in cases in which a young farmer might take over a holding in which there are out-farms. It would make much better sense for such a farmer to try to consolidate that holding. We must make an effort in this regard because it is too prohibitively expensive for this to happen at present and consequently it is not happening.

The witnesses referred to partnerships and I seek their views on my perception that dairy partnerships are the only ones which really are on the table at present. It is very important that progress be made to broaden out their use to the beef and other sectors. However, some people are scared away from the partnership model because it entails quite a big commitment. However, I refer to scenarios involving young farmers in particular, who might not have a huge amount of land themselves but who might have elderly relatives or neighbours with land who do not have the wherewithal to undertake a really intensive programme. Do the witnesses have ideas on measures short of partnership but which encompass that sharing mechanism and on what could be done to try to facilitate this by the Government? Even if it is not a full partnership, there may be measures the Government could introduce that would not entail a massive cost but which could help or surmount some of the difficulties. I acknowledge there are difficulties and fears in this regard and some farmers do not wish to participate in such schemes. I seek the witnesses' views on the subject and in general, I thank them for their presentation.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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I thank all the witnesses. As Deputy Ferris noted, they are pushing at an open door in this meeting. On the issue of stamp duty relief specifically, given it is a relief that already exists and which is due to expire, has Macra na Feirme been given any indication? Is Macra na Feirme in the dark or do the witnesses know what might happen to this relief? In a broader context, it was interesting to hear Mr. Connolly use that language of the agricultural entrepreneur and perhaps it being a move away. Mr. Joyce then noted young farmers were not land grabbers. To what extent can Macra na Feirme afford to devote the time and efforts needed to educate and to move the culture away from the fact that land was, and always has been, held dearly? As this always has been difficult, how much work would it entail? Whatever about legislation or grants or other measures, I refer to facilitating the work that is done locally by Macra na Feirme in discussions, by educating and by having that conversation. Obviously, Macra na Feirme is already doing much of that and the witnesses referred to leadership training, industry visits and public speaking. Can Macra na Feirme run a concerted, obvious campaign - perhaps it already is doing it - to state this is where matters are heading and young farmers are not land grabbers? Can they state they seek to do it with dignity but that both ends are needed? It does not matter how many rules are put in place or how much assistance is given unless the culture is changed and in truth, the witnesses are the only ones who can encourage such change. This sort of ties in but is slightly different, in that I wonder whether Macra na Feirme could take more of a psychological approach in this regard.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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I thank the lads for their attendance and it is good to have them back before the joint committee again. We now have met a number of times in the lead-up to the budget and everyone hopes there will be no cuts. Hopefully there will be none, although one is told there must be more than €100 million in cuts somewhere within the agriculture budget. Certainly, for farmers on the ground and coming from a farming background myself, people are expressing the hope there will be no further serious cuts. The witnesses touched on the issue of land mobility, which is very important. Especially on foot of the abolition of dairy quotas from 2015, there will be an opportunity for young farmers in particular to expand. I was approached some time ago by a neighbouring farmer who was living beside a farm that was planted in forestry. It involved 60 acres of the very best of land by the standards of County Leitrim, that is, it was good limestone-based land. The farmer in question wondered whether it would be possible, after the crop of timber was extracted, for this land to be turned back to farming. He was even prepared to swap poorer land for it. I raised the issue with the Minister and with Teagasc and I note the Minister could make an order in such a case to take back that land. It was very good land that was planted perhaps 40 years ago or more and it will create a great opportunity for any farmer but for a young farmer in particular who sought to expand. In this case, he was making more, albeit poorer, land available for forestry. I have raised this issue number of times

The witnesses mentioned the dairy efficiency programme, DEP. My first thought was they were talking about a Belgian blue bull because I do not come from a dairy background. All such initiatives, including sheep discussion groups and beef discussion groups are very important for everyone because we can all learn. When I am not at home myself, I send my own sons to participate in the BTAP programme. They will learn more and will have better ideas for the future. In any event, some sort of a scheme will be needed in the future. While I acknowledge this may not happen in these difficult times, it will be necessary to consider a farm retirement scheme in the future to encourage those older farmers to hand over the land. It is very sad to learn that only 5% of farmers are under 35. When in place, the farm retirement scheme was great and perhaps in two or three years' time, hopefully we will find ourselves in a position to be able to re-introduce such a scheme and to give young farmers a chance. However, I agree wholeheartedly with the points made by the witnesses and will work with them to ensure there are no cuts or at most minimal cuts in the agricultural sector.

Michelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I want to extend a welcome to the witnesses. Having spoken to them before, I appreciate where they are coming from. I welcome the fact that they will soon have their report to hand on land mobility. I hope that it will be a robust document in the sense that it will give a clear indication as to how we might proceed. As regards land mobility in particular, if we look at all the tax incentives that are already there - including young trained farmer relief, agricultural relief in capital aquisitions tax, capital gains tax, retirement relief for a farmer handing over land - they were not created yesterday or the day before. They have been on the go for a while, yet we still have a major problem concerning the reluctance of farmers who own land to pass it on or making arrangements to do so. Part of the difficulty is that there is no way we can identify that those arrangements are there.

I agree with Senator Comiskey that the early retirement scheme was helpful but we did not see everyone clamouring to avail of it either. Are there some preliminary views on it? We get all sorts of reports back, including farmers who will not give over their land because there are no pre-nuptial agreements and they do not know how the land will be divided. They will therefore allow their son or daughter to farm with them but it all carries a health warning because they obviously do not believe in romance or have been around too long to believe in it.

Another issue has been brought to my attention at clinics in Mayo. It is the question of people still having difficulty getting planning permission to build on a holding for a son or daughter who is the heir apparent to the land. They wish to be in a common sense location near outhouses, rather than being on part of the holding that is ten or 12 miles away just because the planning decision requires that. In some instances, houses were built as a commodity that was sold. People have come to live in areas where it was probably envisaged that it would only be for the farmer's son or daughter to assist with the continuity of farming. That is a real problem for some farmers. Some people are tearing their hair out because they have issues in dealing with local authorities. Younger people obviously want to build such houses, so I would be interested to hear what Macra na Feirme has to say about this. A lot of tax incentives have already been tried, so what is the overriding feeling? I appreciate that Mr. Jagoe will not give me a final answer until he has the report.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I am not quite sure if that has anything to do with the budget. To be fair, it is more of a local authority issue. Given the presentation and the members' response, the underlying theme has been centred on getting farm land into the hands of young, trained professionals with an enthusiasm for the career and the job. Looking at all our objectives for growth in this sector, with the quotas gone, I think members will agree that it is a different presentation from the others in so far as the witnesses have concentrated on incentive measures to allow the industry grow to where it becomes product-based and income-earning. Various aid schemes, such as the targeted agricultural modernisation scheme or TAMS and the single farm payment, are built around that. However, the principle is that one has a productive, profitable farm business.

It was also interesting to hear what Mr. Connelly said about the wider dimension Macra na Feirme plays in Irish society. That cannot be underestimated. The committee would be interested in Macra's ongoing discussions with the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. If Macra wants to present specific correspondence to us we will be able to reflect on it and maybe support its efforts. That is not being party political. If Mr. Jagoe wants to reply to any particular points that have been raised, including the planning permission one, he is welcome to do so.

Mr. Alan Jagoe:

I might come to Deputy Mulherin's comment last because it is something that is affecting me at the moment. I will start with Deputy Ferris's point about the ability of the dairy herd in Ireland post quota. Teagasc estimates that there is at least an extra capacity of between 15% and 18% within the current dairy herd, including calving patterns and milking later in the year. In recent years, due to the super levy, farmers were drying off cows in September or October, and as early as August last year. Therefore somewhere between 15% and 18% will be achieved through the natural herd as it is.

According to the Irish Cattle Breeding Federation, ICBF, the figures for next year show that roughly 3% extra heifers will be calving in the spring. That should not pose a super levy situation next year considering the bad summer we have had. However, for the following two years that figure will grow by approximately 8% and 12%. If these figures continue upwards it will result in us achieving the 50% figure.

Positive efforts are being made on the ground by co-ops. Last week, we saw Glanbia passing its first vote for the joint venture between the plc and the co-op to expand its business. We see the same happening at Dairygold. In west Cork, Carberry has extra capacity within its own capacity. Following its new acquisition of north Cork, the Kerry Group has less capacity. In Galway, following Connacht Gold's acquisition of Donegal Creameries that capacity is now there on the ground, barring that south-east Dairygold and Glanbia corner. That will be built in the coming year, however.

As regards means testing, I do not have the figures to hand. This year, Teagasc has implemented the first stage of a new means testing course. It is in its first year and it will be interesting to see how that will proceed at the end of this year. The number that will be availing of student grants coming from farming families is relatively small, but these young people do need support. The Deputy is right to say that it should be based on income rather than on assets.

As young farmers we are anxious to have land transfers but that is not happening, so we need to promote long-term leasing further. As the committee is aware, the whole conacre system in Ireland is proving to be a real headache for farmers, given the new CAP forthcoming in 2014. The conacre system has been there and in recent years long-term leasing has not been pushed or encouraged enough. Much of that has to do with the accountants, solicitors and auctioneers working with us, who can potentially lose business by farmers having long-term leases. That is because the relationship goes between both farmers instead of between the farmer, accountant or auctioneer, whatever the case may be. These are matters that we will have to address.

Senator Hayden mentioned farm consolidation which we are pushing hard on our agenda. We are proposing a new form of roll-over and are targeting young farmers under 35. If they buy a nearby farm to consolidate their farm and sell an out-block of land to purchase that, there should be no tax implications for the sale of that land. That information is in the document before the committee.

We want to see partnerships expanded into other sectors. I am in the milk production partnership and the benefits of such a partnership are immense. One has increased scale, efficiency and productivity, as well as a different skills set and mindset, which is all fantastic. If these partnerships can be expanded into beef, sheep and tillage farms there are endless possibilities and opportunities for them. In addition, the quality of life that goes along with it is crucial.

I know of two dairy farms in Kilbrittain, west Cork, which have a beef partnership in action. However, there is no legislation in place for them to go ahead. There are many examples of these unofficial partnerships across the country which would prefer if there were some legislative framework to give them some recognition. We are also very much for other collaborative arrangements be it in equity or other areas. For example, I have received telephone calls from five young farmers, one girl and four lads, who could not go home farming because the farms were either too small or there was a sibling there already farming. They were looking for other options to go into farming. For the past five years, these five farmers have been seeking ways of getting into farming, not as a farm labourer but as a farm manager or to go into partnership. They cannot find these opportunities in Ireland. One of the farmers, who happens to be a friend of mine, has farmed over the past several years in New Zealand and Australia. There he would be given a list of opportunities if he wishes to take up farming in either of these countries. Here in Ireland, that mindset is not the same. We are willing to go to whatever lengths to get young people into farming or expand enterprises but information and education must be targeted at the older farmer because there is a lack of knowledge at that level.

Senator O’Keeffe raised the issue of stamp duty relief about which we are very much in the dark. It is up for renewal at the end of this year. That is why it is at the top of our agenda. The relief encouraged the transfer of farms to young farmers before they reach 35 years of age. The culture among older farmers needs to be changed. Young farmers are bursting to get into farming and expand farming enterprises. They want to take on the world but the education campaign must be targeted at our senior colleagues. We must work with them and help them to change this culture.

Senator Comiskey raised the issue of putting land already used for forestry back into agricultural production. That is quite hard to do. The legislation is probably the simplest part of it. Putting such land back in dry stock or dairy production is very difficult to do. While I like the Senator’s sentiment, I do not believe it is possible.

On Deputy Mulherin’s point about planning permission, I applied for planning permission for a house on 3 January and only received it last week. It is a very vexing issue for young farmers. I am farming in partnership with my father now and looking to take over the farm ultimately. It took me 11 months to secure planning permission for a house next to the farm. The process nearly saw me have to locate the house a mile from the farm and even at one point next to another farmer’s farmyard. This was absolutely ludicrous. I was looking for a modest house, not a mansion, but it still took 11 months to secure planning permission on my own farm.

There are some preliminary results from Macra’s land mobility study. One interesting one is the need for a secondary income after retiring. Many farmers find the income they generate is absorbed into the business. Many farmers are concerned they will not have any further income once they transfer a farm.

Michelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Are the fears surrounding pre-nuptial agreements a rural myth as opposed to an urban one then?

Mr. Alan Jagoe:

Does anyone else want to answer that, seeing as I am getting married next June?

Mr. John Joyce:

The land mobility study will be published before Christmas. The IFA, the Irish Farmers' Journal, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and various agricultural trusts are also involved in it. While we know its preliminary findings, it is a question of what we will do with them.

On Senator O'Keeffe's points about my land grab comments, as young farmers we could say we want the land. However, we understand these older farmers were pioneers in their day too. Not alone that but they also need a secondary income and many of them need to be occupied. Rural Ireland is being depopulated. One only has to go to a local shop to see the majority of the population is made up of old people. It would be disappointing for the sake of not rejuvenating agriculture that these lands would be left idle or abandoned.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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However, it is Macra's role in that educational process in which I am interested. I agree Macra does not want to be painted as a land grabber but there are some people who may take the view it is. The educational aspect of this debate must fall on Macra’s shoulders. That is why I asked what Macra had done in this regard.

Mr. Alan Jagoe:

We need buy-in from all stakeholders on this. If Macra is to push this agenda to its fullest, it will be taken by the older farmer that it is young farmers only going for land grab. That is why we need buy-in from all stakeholders. The IFA came on board with this study because it realised the problem out there, as well as the other stakeholders. Macra will be very much behind the scenes driving this issue to the forefront. We want this land for productive reasons. Just because the land is for production does not mean we have automatic rights to ownership.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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Macra might be accused of doing that. If it is behind the door it might be in greater danger than being before the door.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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A long-term lease is just as beneficial to the farmer considering retiring as to the young farmer as it could provide him or her with an additional income from rent. Has Macra any concerns about how the ending of the milk quota system will affect prices? This could be damaging to people who have already invested in dairy production. Rural isolation and loneliness is a serious issue, which I know from bachelor small farmers in County Kerry. I recall Senator McAleese several years ago, along with the GAA and the IFA, tried to put in place a programme to deal with rural isolation.

I seek their views on that because, obviously, Macra na Feirme is the future in that regard.

Mr. Alan Jagoe:

The tax benefits of long-term leasing for the recipients are incredible and that should be enough of an incentive. However, the benefits have not been pushed enough or publicised enough. As I stated earlier, there was the conacre system in Ireland. There are farms dating back generations where the farm is going back to the same farmer every year under the conacre rule. Long-term leasing would be more efficient and effective financially for all parties concerned but for some reason that does not happen. That is a mindset that must change.

On the issue of future milk prices, the price collapse to 21 cent per litre in 2009 occurred within a quota scenario. We still are in the quota era. The price is up in the region of 32 cent per litre at present but volatility is here to stay. If one speaks to the milk processors, they will say there is a one-in-three-year volatility cycle. Please God, it will not be next year. Next year seems to be the year in which prices could go down, but then markets are not up at present. Ireland's milk pool is roughly 1.5% of the overall world supply. If we double that, our milk pool will be somewhere up around 1.8% of the world's milk supply. We are still a relatively small player within the world milk pool. In contrast, every processor in Ireland is going after value-added products and that is where the premium is at present. For example, the Middle East and Africa are areas in which demand for protein from milk products - whether that be cheese, milk or whey - is growing significantly, and that must be good for Ireland. Ireland is producing nearly 17% of the world's baby formula, which is fantastic. That is the product that comes directly from Ireland and does not include Irish products being blended abroad in countries such as China. Ireland is becoming a big, big player but we need support from the relevant institutions as well.

Mr. Connelly mentioned the work we are doing with regard to rural isolation. Nearly every second day we are approached by organisations that wish to work with us. We cannot manage that because, as he stated, we have the equivalent of 14 full-time staff. We are primarily volunteer-based. I am a volunteer and so is Mr. Joyce, along with 8,000 more around the country, champing at the bit to do whatever we can at a local level. We can do so much. Mr. Connelly will expand on that.

Mr. Edmond Connelly:

The Deputy made a good point on rural isolation. As Mr. Jagoe stated, we are being approached by organisations that are dealing with the acute aspects of rural isolation, such as mental health problems. As we keep saying to them, what we can do is what we are set up to do - that is, to get young people involved in Macra. The biggest antidote to the threat of isolation and mental health issues is to get people involved in social networks, encourage them to partake of further training and allow them to meet people outside their own immediate areas. We see it constantly - members of Macra who perhaps two years ago were very quiet blossoming within a couple of years. I welcome the Chairman's comments with regard to support from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs because I genuinely believe that volunteer-led organisations such as this can achieve so much more than attempts by the State to put acute services in place. If we can mobilise the volunteers and reach out to increasing numbers and get them involved, that would be our biggest contribution and by far the most effective way of dealing with this issue.

Mr. Alan Jagoe:

Last week the National Youth Council of Ireland came out with a report stating that every €1 invested by the Government saves it €2.20. It is value for money.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The meeting has been informative. It is interesting to see the other aspects of the priorities. I have just been approached by members of the Irish Farm Management Association, of which I am probably a lapsed member. They have reconstituted themselves and are interested in coming before the committee. Mr. Joyce made the point that young farmers do not want to be seen as land-grabbers, but the men and women operating farms, who tend to be older and have been around for a while, can have a vision about land mobility and the availability of land because a significant number of them operate on land they do not own in the first place. Maybe their perspective on it is compatible with Macra na Feirme's, and that is something we should develop.

The Minister will examine many of the priorities Macra na Feirme listed. In many cases - such as the example of stamp duty relief - it is the Department of Finance that needs persuasion to grasp the concept of what it would do by forgoing revenue. Often it is merely a matter of allowing transfers take place, because at present there is no money transferring and no revenue coming in either way. That is the job. Macra na Feirme makes a strong argument for that. It is certainly something the Minister would welcome when he makes his case to the Department of Finance.