Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Before dealing with the main business of the meeting, a motion has been tabled by Senator John Crown.

John Crown (Independent)
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I move:

That the Joint Committee on Health and Children calls for a ban on smoking on the Leinster House campus.

I seek the support of my colleagues for the motion, the reasons for which will be obvious. There are 1,500 deaths caused by lung cancer in Ireland every year. It is far and away the leading cause of death from cancer and arguably the leading cause of death. In the absence of smoking lung cancer would not disappear, but it would become an uncommon disease, as would head and neck and oesophageal cancer. Pancreatic and bladder cancer would also become less common. Chronic obstructive airways disease is emerging as the source of a critical health issue and a colossal drain on health resources, as well as being a tragedy for the individuals and families concerned. The incidence of this disease would decline by 80% to 90% if cigarette smoking disappeared completely. Premature heart disease, premature strokes, crippling strokes and life-changing strokes would not disappear, but they would become less common. People smoke because they are addicts. They may say they smoke because they are exercising some kind of right or a constitutional rightm but the right to smoke is enshrined nowhere. I am not suggesting we ban smoking, but we do not have a obligation to facilitate it.

The HSE is moving towards a model which will be activated in 2015. There will be a ban on smoking anywhere on the campus of any HSE facility - indoors, outdoors, in corridors or carparks. Every HSE campus will be a smoke-free zone up to the gates and I am proud to say it has already happened. My institution, St. Vincent's University Hospital, was the first hospital in the country to take this step. I will provide the committee with a list of the hospitals where a no-smoking ban has been implemented: St. Vincent's University Hospital; St. James's Hospital; Portlaoise General Hospital; James Connolly Memorial Hospital; the Mater Hospital; Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Drogheda; Louth County Hospital; Our Lady's Hospital, Navan; Cork University Hospital; Waterford Regional Hospital; Galway University Hospital; Croom Orthopaedic Hospital; and the hospitals in Letterkenny, Limerick, Ennis and Nenagh. If it is good enough for sick patients stuck in hospital beds and hospital staff, it should be good enough for parliamentarians. It may not be immediately obvious with all the best press politicians have had in recent years, but we still remain some form of role models. My fantasy is that this could become the first smoke-free parliament campus. If we do this, we should also launch a major smoking cessation help programme for parliamentarians and members of the staff in Leinster House. It would be a wonderful flagship initiative if we could say the country that first banned smoking in the workplace also had the first smoke-free parliament campus and the addicts had all been cured.

The third and most important reason is we need to consider the health of the individuals who smoke. I do not smoke and cannot make a case that my health has been compromised by someone smoking in the middle of the carpark in Leinster House, although I find it extremely distasteful. I recently read about an individual who was a frequent visitor to Leinster House. In the course of an interview this person talked about their young children. I have never seen this person without a cigarette.

I ask patients to imagine the conversation they will have with their children if they should ever have to tell them they have lung cancer. They will say, with tear-streaked eyes, "Mommy or Daddy, you knew smoking did this and now you are going to leave us. Why did you do this to us?" I have had to give this type of bad news to too many people over the years and it has become a mission of mine that we try to deal with it as definitively as we can. People will say this measure is nanny-statism anti-libertarian tosh. It is addiction thinking and I speak with great authority, not because I am a Senator, a doctor or a professor but because I used to be a smoker. I know exactly what it is like. I know exactly what it is like in the morning to reach out stumblingly to the bedside locker for that packet of cigarettes. I know what it is like to feel that unbelievable sense of umbrage when somebody would ask me to step outside to smoke. I used to wonder why they did not step outside if they did not like the smoke. That is the perverted thinking of a smoker, the addiction thinking and what in addiction circles is called "stinking thinking". Every time somebody looks at one and asks, "How could you make us go out onto Kildare Street or Merrion Square to have a cigarette? How could you be so insensitive to my needs?", one must remember that all they are asking one to do is to facilitate their own slow suicide. If one really likes them, loves them or respects them, one will not. They do not have a free choice. This is an addiction. This is not something they are doing willfully.

I ask members to join me in petitioning the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, the body that makes this decision. It will have great moral authority if this committee supports the motion so that Leinster House, like every HSE hospital in the country, will be a smoke-free complex inside and out.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am speaking as a person who suffers from nicotine addiction and whom on occasions Professor Crown has lectured in his forthright way as to what one would say to one's children or somebody else. The message hits home and this gives me great courage to stay off cigarettes.

Obviously we should make every effort to try to discourage people from smoking. We brought in the smoking ban in the workplace, public houses, restaurants and elsewhere. It has been successful in terms of discouraging people from smoking in certain areas. I assume it has an impact on the number of people smoking. We are members of the Joint Committee on Health and Children. We should be actively encouraging support for public health policies and driving public policies to ensure we hammer home the message that cigarettes are very dangerous. Professor Crown made the point previously that if tobacco had been discovered only in the past few weeks, we would not allow it into the country and we would not allow it to be sold legally to people of a certain age. We should consider this motion.

Professor Crown states that smoking is dangerous to health. It could be dangerous to some Members' health if they had to go outside the front gates to have a cigarette. People outside are waiting for them, as inevitably happens when a Government becomes unpopular.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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As the Deputy knows well.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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As I know well. However, may I advise the Chair that I am now being welcomed outside the gates again.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I see in some media quarters it refers to the Fianna Fáil bounce as the "Kelleher boom".

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have one query that arises from the operation of the Parliament. It could create a difficulty for the staff who may have to inform a Member of a vote or other procedure. The Members would have had to leave the precinct to smoke. How would they be made aware if a division were called? As a person who stood out in the smoking area from time to time, I realise that when people have to smoke in a public place that does not send out a good image.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The management of the facilities of the Leinster House complex is a matter appropriate to the Joint Committee on Administration which will deal with the outcome of the motion.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am not a smoker. The last time I had a cigarette in my hand was 36 years ago and I am glad it is as far back as that. Smoking is not illegal. While I am supportive of the idea of ending smoking as a practice in this institution, it would send out a much stronger message if, through a process of consultation with Members and staff, we had voluntary compliance with a non-smoking practice across the institution. I think that would give out a much stronger message and tick the box in terms of real leadership rather than imposing a ban.

I would like to see an end to the practise of smoking in this institution and I would like to see the end of smoking full stop. However, I know some will point to the hypocrisy that we are legislators yet we would impose a ban on this institution but are not prepared to consider imposing a ban on smoking per se across the country. We know the consequences of doing that would drive smoking underground and would end up adding only to the profiteering of criminals. The truth of the matter is that voluntary compliance is the most important, strongest and most sustainable approach to this practice.

While I am wholly sympathetic to what Senator Crown passionately argues for, I know the number of people who work here outnumber the elected voices. I believe there should be engagement and consultation with them. This committee should give the lead but it should be through consultation and engagement with Members and, as of right, the staff who work in this institution on the premise of encouraging voluntary compliance to explore what can be achieved. It would be a wonderful achievement if the Leinster House complex could declare itself a smoke-free zone. I am 100% behind that but I believe there is a better way to achieve it than by the imposition of a ban.

If the motion is pressed, I will of course wish the exercise success and will play my part in encouraging compliance. The decision is not ours in terms of whether such a ban will be implemented, but it will be an expression of views. I hope the views of all members honestly expressed would be respected and conveyed in association with whatever decision is finally reached after this discussion.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Senator Crown makes some very compelling arguments and it is difficult to express one's hesitancy on the motion. As previous speakers have said, we share the working environment with many other people. I am hesitant about Members taking a decision without consultation with staff, a point put forward by Deputy Ó Caoláin. Traditionally before a ban is instigated, there is a public health and awareness raising process. I have a difficulty with the committee moving to immediately ban smoking in the Leinster House complex without taking other steps in the lead-up to the ban. My understanding is that there are two allocated spaces for smokers.

John Crown (Independent)
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There are four, which have outdoor heaters paid for by the taxpayer.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I have had the experience in other arenas of walking out of an office to be confronted by smoke.

However, I have never experienced it in the Leinster House complex. I am a non-smoker. I have never smoked, and I have not had the experience of my health being directly adversely affected by the smoking of others. I am hesitant about saying we should ban smoking on the entire campus. We must do more to promote public health. I would love to see the day when we get to that stage but I have a difficulty in that the vast majority of Members are only in Leinster House for part of the week, while staff are present all week and must be included in whatever considerations are being made.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Nobody could argue with the facts Senator Crown has put forward. The more those facts are taken into consideration by smokers the better. I am not in a great position to lecture on the subject because I have never smoked but I do not support the motion for the reasons Senator van Turnhout and other speakers have outlined. I would be happy to support a situation whereby the smoking areas were hidden. One or two of the areas are hidden currently but the most public ones are outside the door of the annexe and outside the front door of the main building. I would be happy to support the designation of non-visible areas for smoking, as was the case in the school I attended.

From speaking to smokers and former smokers I know that it is a difficult addiction to give up. As Deputy Ó Caoláin said, it is not against the law. Perhaps a campus-wide ban is something that might be considered possible in years to come, but it would be too much of an imposition on those who do smoke in and around these premises. I would be happy to support an aggressive visual campaign against smoking within the confines of Leinster House and for designated smoking areas to be hidden, but to introduce a total ban on smoking would be a step too far for those people who smoke.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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To follow on from what other speakers have said, as temporary inhabitants of the House we could do nothing without consulting staff who have worked here for decades. In 2002, when I first came to Leinster House, we could smoke in the office. At the time I smoked. It is ridiculous to recall the cloud of fog in which we used to work in the office and in the ante-rooms off the Seanad and the Dáil.

At the time the smoking ban was introduced, I opposed it through the back channels. How wrong I was. There is no question but that I would not have succeeded in giving up cigarettes if it were not for the ban. However, Leinster House is a place of work and some of those who work here smoke. As other speakers have said, it is not against the law as yet. As you pointed out, Chairman, it is a matter for the Joint Administration Committee and probably ultimately the Oireachtas Commission to decide whether a smoking ban is introduced. Based on what I have heard from fellow committee members, the best we can do today is to express the aspiration that a ban may be achievable, but in consultation with staff. It is important that a good message be sent. Such a view could go to the Joint Administration Committee and it could make arrangements.

I do not disagree with anything Senator Crown has said. He is absolutely correct. We all wish to work towards his goal, but there are a number of different ways to achieve it. The Aviva stadium is a smoke-free zone, yet at concerts and matches there is a single smoking area. Perhaps that is step one. I am not so sure about hiding the smoking area. I agree with Deputy Dowds: it brings me back to my school days when we were smoking in toilets. I support the other proposal made by Senator Crown that the committee should sponsor a campaign to assist all staff who currently smoke to give up cigarettes, although it should not ban them from smoking, and perhaps express the strong aspiration today that we will ultimately achieve smoke-free status for this Parliament in consultation with the permanent staff. We temporary people will be here only for a short period no matter how lucky or focused we are.

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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I agree in principle with what Senator Crown has proposed but, like other speakers, I believe there must be consultation. It might not be a bad idea to set a target date - be it six months or 12 months - whatever happens in the long term, but every possible assistance must be given to those staff and Members who smoke to assist them in moving away from having to smoke every day. That would be a beneficial process in itself. It would not be a bad idea to set a target date for the matter to be dealt with, even if it is a case of postponing a decision rather than continuing to discuss it. I agree in principle with the proposal, but there must be consultation.

Ciara Conway (Waterford, Labour)
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I welcome the motion tabled by Senator Crown. It is an important issue. As previous speakers have said, the current arrangements on the Leinster House campus are within the law. It is important to note that. We must consider whether to establish a proverbial bike shed, as Deputy Dowds suggested, which would be a more discreet place for smokers. Unlike other Waterford Deputies, I would be compliant with that.

With regard to the personal security of employees, my attention was drawn to the fact that a member of staff, Ronan Lenihan, was mistaken for the former Deputy Jackie Healy-Rae some time ago and attacked during a protest on Kildare Street. That should also be taken into consideration.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Fine Gael)
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First of all, I am a non-smoker. I have never smoked. I do not have a clue about the taste of tobacco, but I am 100% behind Senator Crown’s proposal. I keep away from the four locations in which I see people smoking because of the danger of passive smoking. There is no point in dancing around the situation; if we do not make a decision then the practice will go on. It is important that we do so.

I know what it is like to have smokers in the house. At one stage two of my daughters smoked, but we have reduced that by 50% in that only one of them now smokes. Smoking is very dangerous. Senator Crown referred to the number of people to whom he has to give the bad news that they have cancer. Lung cancer has taken over from breast cancer to become the most common form of cancer. We will do Members a favour by banning smoking totally from the campus.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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And staff.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Yes, and staff.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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And journalists.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Fine Gael)
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If patients and staff of hospitals can do it, I do not see any reason we cannot do it. I am in favour of Senator Crown’s motion.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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There is huge merit in what Senator Crown has proposed today. I am a reformed smoker, no more than Deputy Kelleher or Senator MacSharry. Many is the day we huddled outside in the rain. Trying to force people to give up cigarettes does not work. The way to do it is to allow people to make a choice. What we should do is to set a date, as Senator Colm Burke has said, and in the interim put a cessation programme in place to help and assist people to get off cigarettes. We must give people the choice and the opportunity to do that. The stick we would use would be a future date for making the Parliament completely smoke-free. I suggest that Senator Crown select a date and we can work on a timetable towards it. We can postpone a division-----

John Crown (Independent)
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My motion does not suggest a date.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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There is merit in putting a timetable in place to make the Parliament a smoke-free complex.

However, the first thing that must be done is to actively assist smokers not just in this House but in every workplace. I am aware that is actively done in other workplaces and the same should happen here.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I have very little to add to what was said but I agree with the final sentiment expressed by Deputy Naughten. I was not present for Senator Crown's contribution but there is an onus on us to make as many places as possible smoke-free zones. That can happen provided measures are put in place first but we must discuss those measures before that decision is made.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We have heard the arguments from all members. Does Senator Crown want to reply? There is consensus on trying to make-----

John Crown (Independent)
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I will ask a seconder to come in for a vote.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Senator does not need a seconder.

John Crown (Independent)
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I will call a vote but I will speak to the motion before we vote. On a point of information, nowhere in this motion is a date suggested. It has always been our intention that we would agree that this is what we will do and that we will fix a date. It should not be some vague, indeterminate date. We should pick a date such as 1 March or 1 July and give people a chance to make alternative arrangements.

I want to make a few points. First, on the suggestion that the smoking areas should be hidden, a cigarette that is smoked away from the gaze of one's constituents is not a cigarette that is less likely to give one cancer, a stroke or a heart attack. It does not matter who is or is not looking at one; it is dangerous.

Second, people have repeatedly referred to the fact that smoking is a legal activity and have suggested that somehow it would be inappropriate to ban a legal activity. Somebody needs to tell the Health Service Executive, HSE, that because that is what it has done in 17 hospitals and what it will do in every hospital in the country within the next two years. Already that is the case in the HSE headquarters and in many public buildings and campuses. It is policy. If a serious issue arises on this we need to call in those people and ask them the reason they are infringing the rights of people to do something legal in State-funded facilities. I do not believe we will do that.

I am very sensitive to the personal security issue but there is a simple solution to it; stop smoking. If people are afraid to go out on the street to smoke a cigarette because they may face the wrath of an inflamed electorate while they are doing that, they should stop smoking. It is the simplest thing to do. I am more conscious-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Can I make one point?

John Crown (Independent)
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Yes.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We have to be reasonable regarding staff members in particular who should not have to run the gauntlet of protestors outside the House.

John Crown (Independent)
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They do not. They can stop smoking. They can choose not to have a cigarette. There is a circular argument going on here. People think they are enhancing the safety and security of people by facilitating their committing slow suicide by smoking.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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No.

John Crown (Independent)
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That is absurd. It is nonsensical. That is what people are saying. If the members love and cherish the staff who work in Leinster House they will do everything in their power to encourage them to overcome their addiction. I have taken soundings from many of the staff in Leinster House and I am rather more sympathetic to the staff than I am to the parliamentarians for many reasons. I have asked them their opinion and the non-smokers are overwhelmingly in support of the idea of banning smoking on the Leinster House complex. The people who are raising objections are addicts. The members are not listening to the rational reasoning of people who are making a free choice. They are listening to the product of addiction thinking. They are not doing anybody a favour by making it easier for them to-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Given the comments of all members, is the Senator open to an amendment from them in terms of a promotional campaign to reduce the number of smoking areas leading to a cessation date?

John Crown (Independent)
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I would be open to people saying they support the amendment and fixing a date some time in 2013. I will not be supportive of anything else. If there is an amendment on bringing in smoking cessation programmes for the staff and parliamentarians in Leinster House I will support it, but not as some kind of a horse trade-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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No. I am not horse trading. I am listening to the views of members and I do not want to divide them unnecessarily.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If I may make a brief comment, with all respect to Senator Crown, what he demonstrates is a total refusal to accept the very considered remarks of members here, who are no less enthusiastic than he is to reach a certain position. We have made that abundantly clear. How we go about our task is the only difference. Senator Crown wants to force some of us to take up positions on his wording. The potential of that is to misrepresent our views if we do not support his formula of words. I do not agree with his formula of words, nor do I agree with his methodology. I would wish to be able to convince through engagement with staff and Members to reach a shared desired result. The sad part of it is that the approach he is adopting will mislabel members of this committee, something I have known about only in the recent past.

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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If we want to set a target date for this we must allow a reasonable period for it to be dealt with. It will not be dealt with in three months or even six months. The earliest period is 12 months, although that is a personal view. The Senator should not set a target date which cannot be implemented.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Any member may move an amendment to the motion.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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To get clarity, are some members saying we should pick a date in the future? If it is good enough to do it at a certain stage in the future it is good enough to do it next week or next month. If it is the right thing to do it is the right thing to do. What is the proposal from the Chairman with regard to-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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There is no proposal. The Chair listened to members and there appears to be a consensus among the majority of members on the intent of the motion, namely, that they would like to see a visual public health awareness campaign engaged in, and that they would like the number of smoking areas reduced from the current four to-----

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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This being the heart of democracy, should we not have a plebiscite among staff and Members?

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Would the Government or the Opposition lead the promotional campaign?

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would not trust the Government with a referendum; it could be lost.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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With the record of the Deputy's party for the past 14 years, it could lose it. We have a motion before us in the name of Senator John Crown.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Chairman take an amendment?

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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If the Deputy wants to table an amendment I would be happy to-----

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If the Chairman would give me a moment I will do so. He might speak about something for a brief moment while I-----

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I hope members are aware that Senator Crown is considering the health and safety of the Members and the staff. He is a very experienced person but this is a black or white issue. If Senator Crown had not come in here and tabled this motion from his experience as a professor he would not be doing his job. Members might be of the view that he is too strong on the issue but, in fairness, there is only one way of doing it, and that is the way the Senator has done it all his life. He shoots from the hip. There is no point dancing around with an amendment. It is important that people say either " Yes" or "No" to the motion and perhaps put a timescale on this proposal. I am fully supportive of Senator Crown's motion and fair play to him for bringing it forward.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I have a difficulty in that we are being forced to decide whether we are for or against people's health. All of us in this committee work every day to try to improve people's health. I would like us to progress many other issues far more, quickly including childhood obesity, which is next on the agenda, and alcohol-related harm. We must be careful about painting ourselves into one box or another. I am not against the objective but there must be a process. I am a non-smoker. We are here for part of the week. We share this House. I am hesitant to embark on a process while ignoring any consultation process. We all know process is important in terms of bringing people on board. If I tell someone they cannot do something or ask someone their views a different result is achieved. We must be conscious of the process towards reaching the objective, and I have not heard any member say they were against the objective.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I think the majority of members are in favour of the objective-----

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Yes.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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-----that public health is best served by not smoking. The message should go out from the committee that those who engage in the practice of smoking are causing a serious impact on their own health and the health of others.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If the Chairman will forgive me while I had doodled with something earlier I am trying to get the wording more in line with the views expressed by many members earlier,

With the indulgence of the Chair, I offer the following wording as an amendment: "That the Joint Committee on Health and Children, affirming its strong support for efforts to reduce smoking, calls for a process of consultation with all who work in Leinster House aimed at creating a smoking-free campus, including the buildings and the environs of this institution."

I have no doubt as to the sincerity of all who have spoken on what I observe to be the shared view of all members of the committee, which is an aspiration to reach a situation in which we can indeed declare this to be a smoking-free parliament and environs. That would be a proud declaration. However, it would have much greater strength and import if it were achieved through the voluntary compliance and enthusiastic endorsement of all who attend here to carry out their day's labour. I believe that is a process we should address and pursue in the time ahead with all other relevant stakeholders on this campus.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I am not a smoker and never have been. However, I do not think it is fair to decide, at the stroke of a pen, that straight away - from tomorrow - there should be no smoking on the campus. I second the amendment.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We have an amendment.

John Crown (Independent)
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With the greatest respect, I will not accept the amendment. I wish to press for a recorded vote on the original motion.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The committee will vote on the amendment proposed by Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin and seconded by Deputy Catherine Byrne if there is no agreement to the amendment. Is the motion, as amended, agreed to?

John Crown (Independent)
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No. It is not agreed.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I think the motion is carried.

John Crown (Independent)
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I am not sure of the procedure. Is there a recorded vote on the original motion?

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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On the amendment.

John Crown (Independent)
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Is there a recorded vote on the original motion?

Clerk to the Committee:

The procedure is that the amendment is voted on first. If the amendment is defeated, the original motion is voted on. That does not happen if the amendment is carried because that supersedes the original motion. By voting for the amendment, members have, in effect, negated the original motion.

John Crown (Independent)
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Can I press that there be a record of the vote?

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes; we will have a vote. As there are 21 members, does the Senator want a roll call or to record-----

John Crown (Independent)
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I want members' votes to be recorded.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator want a vote on the amendment?

John Crown (Independent)
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Yes.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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As there are fewer than 21 members present, under Standing Orders we are obliged to wait for eight minutes.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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In accordance with the Standing Orders, the clerk to the committee will send a message to both Houses that Deputy Ó Caoláin's amendment has been agreed to. I remind members that as the management of the facilities on the Leinster House campus is a matter appropriate to the Joint Administration Committee, the clerk to the committee will also send a copy of the amended motion to that committee for its attention and to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission.