Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The purpose of this meeting is to meet with the chairman designate of the Qualifications and Quality Assurance Authority of Ireland, Mr. Gordon Clark, in order to discuss the approach he will take in his new role and his views on the challenges facing the new authority. Members will be aware of the Government decision of 11 May, which puts new arrangements in place for the appointment of persons to State boards and bodies. The committee welcomes the opportunity to meet the chairman designate in public session to hear his views and we trust this provides greater transparency to the process of appointment to our State boards and bodies.

On behalf of the committee I welcome Mr. Clark. Mr. John Monahan, the chairman designate of the Grangegorman Development Agency, is in the Gallery and I welcome him as a guest. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise or make charges against any persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. The opening statements for the committee will be published on the committee website after the meeting.

Members are reminded of a long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or any official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. Clark to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Gordon Clark:

I begin by expressing my gratitude for the opportunity to talk in my capacity as designate chair of the Qualifications and Quality Assurance Authority of Ireland. I understand the body's operational title will be Quality and Qualifications Ireland, or QQI, so I will use that acronym today. My written submission has already been made available to the members so I will briefly highlight four main points relating to my experience, my vision for QQI, the key challenges the authority may face, and some thoughts on the role of the chair.

I have had a keen interest and considerable experience in the areas of education and qualification systems for many years. Currently I am a retired European official and I wish to put my skills and knowledge to use on a voluntary basis. In particular, I am available to put my energy, time and expertise into some active role in the area of education and qualifications. It was for this reason I applied ten months ago through the publicly advertised process to be appointed a member of the QQI board.

The members have received a copy of my curriculum vitae so today I will only focus on those aspects of my career in education and public sector management most relevant to the chair of QQI. Before returning to Ireland in November 2010, I was a head of unit in the European Commission with responsibility for the development of the EU's lifelong learning policy. This included in particular the development and management of the European qualifications framework for lifelong learning, which is one of the most influential of the EU's initiatives facilitating co-operation, transparency and mobility in the field of education and training. I was also responsible for the development of the EU's overall framework for co-operation and exchange of good policy and practice in education and training, including leading and chairing key EU-level advisory and co-ordination committees in the field of qualifications and education, as well as membership of the boards of EU vocational training agencies.

The earlier part of my career was in financial management, having qualified in 1970 as an Irish chartered accountant. I initially worked in the private sector in auditing, accounting and management consultancy before joining the EU's audit and budgetary planning services. This experience, skill and knowledge is very pertinent to the role of chairperson, particularly in current times, when we have a very significant focus on good governance and value for money.

I will turn to my vision for the future of QQI. The QQI will shortly be established under the recently enacted Qualifications and Quality Assurance (Education and Training) Act 2012. The new authority will take on the functions currently performed by the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland, the Higher Education and Training Awards Council, the Further Education and Training Awards Council, and the Irish Universities Quality Board. These four bodies have respectively and collectively laid strong foundations in this area since 2001 and 2002. For example, they developed and implemented the national framework of qualifications, initiated award standards in external quality assurance of educational providers and programmes and facilitated the access, transfer and progression of learners within the framework.

Since the authority was first announced in 2008 and within the context of public sector reform, the four bodies, led by Dr. Padraig Walsh, have made significant progress in establishing the new organisation. The amalgamation process has resulted in efficiencies, producing a significant cost saving and reduction in staff numbers. Current staff have already been appointed to new positions within a new organisational structure.

My vision is for the new QQI authority to build on these impressive foundations and establish a more integrated, coherent and relevant qualifications and quality assurance system which will meet the needs of all learners or potential learners, whether they are unemployed, employed, in training or in education in an even more effective way so we can be equipped to respond to post-recession in Ireland and beyond in a state of readiness, with a well educated, qualified and confident work force. It is crucial that the new organisation ensures that all learners or potential learners have access to appropriate and timely information. It is equally important that learners are confident in the programmes of education and training recognised within the framework, and that they are given assurances that their qualifications are recognised within and outside the State for the purposes of employment or gaining access to further education and training opportunities.

In accordance with the Act, QQI will be independent in the performance of its functions as a qualifications and quality assurance agency. It will deliver a high-quality service to and have a strong relationship with providers in further and higher education and training, whether in the private or public sector. This is a vision that combines operational integrity and independence with an holistic and unified approach to working with providers to achieve the highest standards possible. It is a vision that I both share and endorse.

The new authority will face several short to medium-term challenges in order to complete the final stages of the amalgamation process and start fulfilling its functions as set out in the Act. For example, it must prepare and obtain consensus for the adoption of a strategic plan with a clearly defined rationale and goals that will provide direction and ensure measurement performance. We must build an identity and foster an organisational culture for QQI that is conducive to learning, development, growth and excellence. We must establish revised quality assurance and qualifications procedures for providers, programmes and awards which are fit for purpose, integrated and coherent across both further and higher education sectors. The body must develop new policies and procedures, particularly on a code of practice for international learners, as well as an international education mark. QQI must also engage actively in the ongoing reform process in education and training, including the development of effective relationships with the new stakeholders and institutions emerging, such as SOLAS, the local education and training boards and any future technological universities.

In meeting these challenges the new authority is fortunate to have a very well qualified, experienced and dedicated group of staff led by Dr. Walsh, who has been appointed chief executive designate of QQI by the Minister for Education and Skills.

Finally, I will comment briefly on my view of the role of chairvis-à-visthe board of QQI. The chair of a board of any large organisation is a challenging role with considerable responsibility, particularly in these economic times. I see my role as providing the necessary leadership, in accordance with the code of good governance, to ensure the board is clear about its mandate and that it effectively functions to provide strategic guidance while also monitoring the activities and effectiveness of the authority to ensure the highest operational standards of service are achieved. I will work very closely with the chief executive and will cultivate and rely on the co-operation, expertise and independent judgment of the board members to assist me in my role, duties and tasks. I look forward to working with the new board after my appointment. Our collective mission will be to promote the success of the new authority in fulfilling its functions under the Act in the interests of all learners and in accordance with the objectives set by the Government.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Thank you. This is a new thing for the committee so we are very grateful to you for appearing before it this morning.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I join the Chairman in welcoming Mr. Clark and our other guests. It is good to see this procedure commence, whereby designate chairpersons appear before committees to afford us the opportunity for an initial discussion of their future plans. It is clear from Mr. Clark's presentation, curriculum vitae and history and experience with adult education that he is eminently qualified for this role. I wish him and the new organisation well.

This is a welcome development. Yesterday, the Dáil held the Second Stage debate on the Education and Training Boards Bill, which is an important part of the reform of our education and training sector. The establishment of the QQI is also very welcome. It is a sensible move to amalgamate the four organisations that existed in the past and streamline the process of awarding educational qualifications in this country. In terms of the educational framework, the QQI will take over the role of four organisations. What will its relationship be with the universities and the NUI? What other organisations, if any, will be involved in awarding qualifications that the QQI will engage with in that regard? I understand that the NUI will continue to award its own degrees at third level. Perhaps Mr. Clark would elaborate on that.

Overall, I wish him well and look forward to engaging with him further in his new role.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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I, too, welcome Mr. Clark and wish him every success in his new role. I urge him to use the resource of this committee if it can be of benefit to him in his new role. If he wishes to discuss elements of the challenges that face him, we would be happy to do that. This forum tends to be non-party-political. Every member of the committee is committed to education and, as Deputy McConalogue said, we are trying to get through a huge body of reform. Often the challenge is to bring people with us and to face up to accusations of reform for the sake of reform. When one considers what is happening at primary and second levels and the Bill going through the House at present, there is a huge amount of change and there is much concern surrounding that change. If this committee can be of benefit to Mr. Clark, engagement such as this would be very important.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I welcome Mr. Clark to the committee. As the Chairman said, this is a new venture for us. Usually, when people appear before the committee we fire questions at them from all angles but, as Mr. Clark is only starting his role, we will wait. Perhaps we will have plenty of questions for him the next time he appears before the committee. I take this opportunity to wish him well. He is certainly well qualified and his credentials are very impressive. We look forward to working with him in the coming years.

Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I also wish Mr. Clark very well in his new post. If I heard him correctly, he is doing this on a voluntary basis.

Mr. Gordon Clark:

Yes.

Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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That is very good. I hope the new body will be a success. It is a big responsibility for Mr. Clark.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Do you wish to respond, Mr. Clark?

Mr. Gordon Clark:

I thank the Senators and Deputies for their good wishes and support. I am looking forward to this challenge and responsibility. It is an exciting time to be involved in education and training in Ireland after having been away for several years. Given the reforms that are taking place, the QQI will engage actively, in accordance with the Act, with the other stakeholders and institutions which exist and which will emerge as part of the developments in education and training. The Deputy asked about the bodies and stakeholders to which I am referring. There is a range in the area of further education and training. SOLAS will be established and the development of the vocational education committees into education and training boards will be crucial in the reform of further education, vocational education and training. QQI will work closely with them.

In the area of higher education, the Act provides that the authority will consult with the Higher Education Authority, HEA, particularly in respect of its functions in quality assurance, access, transfer and progression, in so far as those functions relate to the institutes of higher education. The HEA's role as a statutory planning and policy development body for higher education and as the funding authority for the universities and the institutes of technology is unchanged by the Act. The new authority will be responsible for the external review of the procedures for quality assurance and access, transfer and progression which are established by HEA-funded institutions. I should stress that the authority's role in respect of quality assurance in higher education in previously established universities and providers generally will be simply to act as an external quality assurance agency which mirrors the review provisions currently set out in the Universities Act 1997. Until now the Irish Universities Quality Board has had a key role to play in quality assurance. It was established by the seven universities' governing authorities in 2002. The new authority will take over and continue the quality assurance role of the Irish Universities Quality Board in the university sector. In that respect, it will seek to build on the infrastructure that is already in place.

The other bodies that are important stakeholders for the QQI will be the institutes of technology and any future technological university. That is a very important sector for the new authority.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I have a couple of questions. You said the authority has a role in respect of access, transfer and progression.

When I was looking up some information during the summer, I noticed that people from Cork College of Commerce could transfer to the UCC law degree course if they obtained a certain grade. They then have a qualification in law and business studies. We need to see more of this in order that people can move from a VEC school to take the second year of a law degree course in Trinity College, Dublin or any other university. Such progression should be possible. Some standard should be set across the board. Will the Qualifications and Quality Assurance Authority of Ireland have powers to force universities to adopt such an approach?

I am not clear on what is meant by "international learners". Is it people who come here from other countries, or is it people from here moving to other countries? Will Mr. Clark clarify the matter?

Mr. Gordon Clark:

I refer to the barriers between further and higher education courses. This is a very important dimension of the national framework of qualifications. The emphasis on access, transfer and progression is crucial for lifelong learning. This was a particular concern of mine in my previous career, that is, to promote lifelong learning and a seamless transfer and progression in order that the framework would provide learning pathways without dead ends for individuals. It should be person-centred. The Act establishing the Qualifications and Quality Assurance Authority of Ireland strengthens the provisions relating to access, transfer and progression and the national framework of qualifications. This applies across the board - to higher education and further education institutions. Under the Act, all providers should have access, transfer and progression policies in place, while respecting the autonomy of universities. It is important to stress the Qualifications and Quality Assurance Authority of Ireland will not approve these procedures, but it will be consulted on them. I am convinced the new authority will have a strong role to promote parity of esteem between further education and higher education institutions and promote and support access, transfer and progression.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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What about international learners?

Mr. Gordon Clark:

International learners are foreign students coming to Ireland. As members may know, the introduction of a code of practice was first proposed to be the function of a body called Education Ireland and then to be a function of Enterprise Ireland. Now responsibility for the establishment of a code of practice and an international education mark has been assigned to the new Qualifications and Quality Assurance Authority of Ireland. Providers will be able to apply for this international education mark based on their compliance with the code of practice. They have to agree their quality assurance and access, transfer and progression procedures with the authority in order to apply for an international education mark. This is about students coming to Ireland. They are also our criteria for the Minister for Justice and Equality who has indicated that learners coming to Ireland from outside the European Union will only receive student work concessions if the course they are attending is provided by a provider which has achieved the mark.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Will the staff of the Qualifications and Quality Assurance Authority of Ireland take in FETAC, HETAC and NQAI staff?

Mr. Gordon Clark:

Yes. There are 80 staff ready to join the new authority when established. They will come from the four bodies I mentioned. It is important to stress that this is the result of a rationalisation process. In 2008 there were 110 staff, but now, through rationalisation and increased efficiencies, there are 80 who have already been allocated within a new organisation which will take over once the authority is formally established.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I thank Mr. Clark for attending and his presentation which was very comprehensive. As I said, this is a new step for the committee which is very important in terms of transparency and public confidence in the State appointments process. It is very reassuring to see in Mr. Clark's presentation how much experience he has in the field of qualifications and assurance and lifelong learning. We will talk to him in the future when we hold meetings relevant to the brief of the authority. I ask the committee for its agreement that we inform the Minister for Education and Skills that we have concluded our discussions with Mr. Clark and that we forward a copy of the transcript of the meeting to the Minister for his information. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I apologise to Mr. Clark for missing his presentation, but I have seen his script. I have been asked to put the following question to him concerning colleges which are still part of the HETAC process. What accommodation, if any, is in place for organisations which are still part of that process? Although deadlines were put in place by HETAC to deal with such organisations, some appear to be caught between the old HETAC procedures and the new Qualifications and Quality Assurance Authority of Ireland procedures. Surely such organisations should be given due consideration and dealt with separately. It would be very helpful if Mr. Clark responded to that question.

Mr. Gordon Clark:

I do not know the facts of the particular case about which the Senator is concerned, but I can very well-----

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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There are a few colleges in that position, but I am referring to a private college.

Mr. Gordon Clark:

I can understand the concerns of potential providers. In September 2011 that NQAI, HETAC and FETAC announced the suspension of a number of activities in advance of their amalgamation. This was necessary in order to prepare for the transition of their functions to the new authority and the reassignment of resources within the new organisation. The amalgamation and rationalisation are clearly challenging and complex. The new Act will remove any legislative distinction between further and higher education. The authority must develop revised procedures taking this into account. That will be essential in order to protect learners. Clearly, providers have the reasonable expectation that these services will reopen soon and will expect the new service to be similar to the old one.

I understand the existing awards and award titles of HETAC and FETAC will be carried over and continue after the Qualifications and Quality Assurance Authority of Ireland's establishment during a transitional period until spring 2013. If there are specific cases such as those mentioned by the Senator-----

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I think Mr. Clark is familiar with the issue. Essentially, the question is whether they have to start a new process with the Qualifications and Quality Assurance Authority of Ireland when the process is near completion with HETAC.

That seems overly burdensome. There should be a smooth transition.

Mr. Gordon Clark:

Yes. I understand the point the Senator makes. The Quality and Qualifications Authority of Ireland has not yet been established. I am sure the point raised by the Senator will be dealt with quickly by the new authority, when established.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I look forward to it.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I thank Mr. Clark for attending and wish him all the best in his new role.