John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We will now deal with the housekeeping aspects of our business.

Are the minutes of the meeting of 4 October agreed? Agreed. We will deal with the minutes from 9 October at our next meeting. On matters arising from the minutes, I note the correspondence received.

Item 3A is correspondence from Accounting Officers. Correspondence dated 4 October 2012 is from Mr. Tom Boland, chief executive of the Higher Education Authority, in respect of the committee meeting of 27 September 2012, to be noted and published. Correspondence dated 21 June 2012 from Mr. Pat Geoghegan, secretary of the Irish Environmental Forum, alleging waste of public funds is to be noted. This matter was referred to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government for a note on the issues raised and also to the Comptroller and Auditor General for appropriate follow-up in the context of his audit of that body. I have checked with the clerk. The EPA comes under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General. In the context of that letter, there are a number of pieces of information that need to be clarified. I ask that they be clarified in order that if members want to raise it with the Accounting Officers when they come in, we can refer to the note from the Comptroller and Auditor General or the note from the Minister's Department.

Item 3B.2 is correspondence dated 2 October 2012 from Deputy Derek Nolan re HSE west property rental budget, to be noted and published. The matter was referred to the HSE for a note and to the Comptroller and Auditor General for the appropriate follow-up in the context of the annual audit.

Correspondence dated 1 October 2012 is from an anonymous source re the prison officers social club Castlerea and is to be noted. This may not come within the remit of the committee as it relates to a social club funds. However, as it alleges inappropriate use of moneys, we will refer it to the Garda Commissioner for appropriate follow-up and comment.

On the issue of individual correspondence and complaints, the first two matter, 3.1 and 3C were deferred from previous meeting because they relate to issues raised by Deputy Mary Lou McDonald. I discussed this with the Deputy and she asked that if she was not here today, because of the structure of the meeting, that they would be deferred again. With the permission of the meeting, that can be done.

Item 3C.3 is correspondence dated 27 July 2012 from Ms Julie O'Shea in respect of the second home charge and fine. This has been noted. The collection of the household charge is a matter for each local authority and is outside the remit of the committee. However, we will ask the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to examine this complaint to ensure the local authority levys the appropriate change on this individual. The Department will be asked to deal with this matter directly. Presumably when that has been dealt with, we will get a copy of the correspondence. With all of these new charges, it is important the issues that come out of them are followed up in order that we can improve the process of collection and so on.

Item 3C.4 is correspondence dated 18 September 2012 from Mr. Martin Moore and Company, Main Street, Blennerville, Tralee, County Kerry. This is a matter for the Revenue Commissioners. This is to be noted. We have dealt with his issue.

Item 3C.5 is correspondence dated 23 September 2012 from Mr. C. Callan in County Clare re the budget. Again, this is a policy issue and is not for the committee. We can refer it to the Department of Finance for comment.

Item 3C.6 is correspondence dated 26 September 2012 from Mr. Michael Brosnan, North Circular Road, Dublin 7, re Mr. Charles Farrell. This is to be noted. We have dealt with this matter arising from previous correspondence

Item 3D relates to documents before this committee - opening statements - and we will publish them.

Item 4 is reports and statements and accounts received since our meeting of 4 October 2012. They are listed from 4.1.to 4.6, all to be noted.

The work programme on the screen takes account of meetings on the payment of public sector pay allowances in 2011. It has been suggested that we hold a private meeting on this next Tuesday. Since our meeting, the Minister for Public Expenditure has made statements on this and has attended a meeting here. The question for the committee is whether we wish to continue to examine the allowances. If so, will we hold a meeting on 16 October and discuss it again? The meeting on 16 October at 2 p.m. was to distribute to members the initial review of the business cases and discuss them. Will we add this as an item on the agenda for the meeting with the Department of Defence on 18 October and allow members to discuss it then instead? It is up to the members. This proposal is made in light of the new developments.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Is the Chairman saying we should not have a meeting on 16 October and go directly to the meeting on 18 October?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. We can brief members on what is to arise at the meeting on the Department of Defence review. It is up to the members. It is probably the normal way to do business.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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The Chairman mentioned this was in light of recent developments. We have not received much detail on the 88 cases. If we are to have a meeting with the Department of Defence where we review the business case for each allowance, there is no point in us doing work which has already being done. Will we know what allowances the Minister has recommended should no longer be paid to civil servants and the amounts involved? Will we have this information before the meeting with the Department of Defence?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We should have. Is Deputy speaking about 88 allowances?

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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It is not relevant to our work.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We can relate them to the cases we will take up with the Department of Defence. If the Minister has taken action on allowances applied to the Department there is no need for us to pursue it.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Do we have this information?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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So we will not waste anyone's time.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The question is whether members are comfortable meeting the Department of Defence with their normal briefing or do they want a special meeting on Tuesday to discuss it. I suggest we do not need such a meeting.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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I will be guided by the Chairman.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think it is necessary.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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When will we receive the file with the 800 cases?

Clerk to the Committee:

We can get the information to the members next week. We will get the details on the cost tomorrow afternoon and we will have much work to do to turn it around. We are trying to concentrate on the allowances concerning the Department of Defence first.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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If we receive the information on Wednesday we can deal with it on Thursday. We will need it before Thursday morning.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Will we apply a division of labour on looking at the allowances? We do not want everyone raising the matter of the same three allowances.

Clerk to the Committee:

There will be a division of labour in terms of the lead speakers for each allowance.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If members have views on this I ask them to make them known to the clerk, as they would normally do.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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When we see the detailed brief that is being prepared we will know better.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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For the meeting with the Department of Defence on Thursday, 18 October, members will receive their normal briefing relative to the allowances and what is relevant to the meeting. We will schedule the speakers accordingly.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Prior to the start of the meeting on Thursday, 18 October, would it be possible to have a discussion on the objectives of this process so that as each lead speaker participates we will know what we want to achieve from each hearing? That way when we get the end of the process we will not say we wish we had asked a particular question earlier in the meeting. We could have a 30 or 40 minute discussion in private session so we are aligned on two or three objectives so that we can make use of what will be a great deal of time for members.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We could have such a discussion on Thursday morning before starting. We can also discuss the arrangements for the other meetings. The Houses of the Oireachtas Commission may be brought before the committee.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Who will be coming before the committee from the Department of Defence?

Clerk to the Committee:

The Accounting Officer.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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I was not sure whether the list on the screen was exhaustive.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It will be the Accounting Officer.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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The person whom the business cases went through.

Clerk to the Committee:

That is right.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

To reflect on the matters raised with the Minister and on Tuesday's meeting I had a discussion with both Accounting Officers after the meeting and I have raised the issue with the Whip. This morning we had an exchange with the Minister. I consider that the issues which caused the tension prior to the meeting have been resolved and we can continue our examination of various Accounting Officers and their accounts as usual. I will meet the HSE after this meeting to answer any queries they may have and resolve any issues. There are two new Accounting Officers and we need to put the meeting behind us and move on in a positive way.