Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of the first part of the meeting is to meet the chairman designate of Bord na Móna, Mr. John Horgan, to discuss the approach he will take in his new role and his views on the challenges facing the company. Members will be aware of the Government decision in May 2011 to put in place new arrangements for the appointment of persons to State boards and bodies. The joint committee welcomes the opportunity to meet the chairmen designate to hear their views and trusts this will provide for greater transparency in the process of appointments to State boards and bodies.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. John Horgan and draw his attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Witnesses' opening statements to the committee will be published on its website. Members are advised and reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. John Horgan:

As chairperson designate of Bord na Móna, I am pleased to respond to the request of this distinguished committee to make a short initial presentation outlining my background and vision for the company.

Having been educated in Dublin at St. Mary's College, Rathmines, and UCD in the 1960s, I studied at Warwick University, Coventry, where I was awarded an MA in industrial relations. I subsequently worked in London for the National Board for Prices and Incomes and the Pay Board, both instruments of government policy, and for a period in the Department of Business Studies at Queens University, Belfast. In 1974 I took up a position as a socio-economist in the Department of Labour in Dublin, working closely as an adviser to the then Minster, Mr. Michael O'Leary, from whom I learned a great deal about commitment and integrity in public life. In 1977 I was appointed deputy chairman of the Labour Court and I became chairman in 1984. In 1989 I went to work for the aircraft leasing company GPA in Shannon as part of a team tasked by Dr. Tony Ryan with using the considerable financial and reputational resources of GPA to bring investment and jobs to the Shannon region. I was a member of the three-person group referred to at the time as the troika, comprising representatives of GPA, Lufthansa and SwissAir, that established the aircraft maintenance facility, Shannon Aerospace, employing 1,000 people. Subsequently I worked in senior HR positions in Analog Devices in Limerick and Warner Lambert and Pfizer in Cork. Since 2001 have worked on my own behalf as an independent human resources consultant to many employees and employers in the public and private sectors. I am satisfied that none of these assignments presents a conflict of interest in taking on the role as chairman of Bord na Móna.

I have been a member of the board of Bord na Móna since April this year and have thus had an opportunity to form a preliminary opinion of and vision for the company. Bord na Móna has a long and honourable history and I am very conscious of its great traditions and achievements. I pay tribute to the many thousands of women and men who over 76 years have made Bord na Móna such a highly respected company which has been fortunate in having had many inspirational leaders throughout its history. I pay tribute especially to the outgoing chairman, Mr. Fergus McArdle, who has successfully headed the company in recent years with great skill and dedication. Under his guidance, the managing director, Mr. Gabriel D'Arcy, has skilfully built a senior management team of exceptional individuals who, I am certain, have the capacity to lead the company to continued success in the years immediately ahead.

The company, however, is at a crossroads. This year will see it having its highest ever turnover and engage in its largest single investment in wind farms at Mount Lucas and Bruckana, but it faces a crisis owing to the poor peat harvest. The weather this summer was the worst ever for peat harvesting and it is now expected that only 40% of the forecast production will be achieved. Despite some diversification, peat is still the basis on which much of the business is built and this will have severe implications not just for this year but for three or four years into the future as the full effect of the reduction in stocks is felt.

Bord na Móna is now a complex organisation of many parts and a challenge for me as chairman of the board, operating within the code of practice for the governance of State bodies, will be to ensure the board is clear about its mandate and from this to identify the various functions, roles and responsibilities entailed in the delivery of that mandate. The board will be collectively responsible for promoting the success of the company by leading and directing its activities. It will provide strategic guidance and monitor the activities and effectiveness of management. It will be an important part of my role to ensure all board members act on a fully informed basis, in good faith, with due diligence and care, and in the best interests of the company, subject to the objectives set by the Government.

Bord na Móna has long recognised the need to diversify its activities in order to secure a sustainable future. It has a unique mix of assets, experience and innovation which will enable it to provide products and services which will assist in meeting Ireland's need for secure sustainable energy, while minimising environmental impact. The company is committed to achieving its objectives in a way that is fully compatible with its vision expressed in A New Contract with Nature. I will be happy to answer whatever questions the committee may have.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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To clarify, how many employees work in the company? What role does the chairman designate see for the increased number of employees and what challenges are there to create jobs within the company? How relevant are the qualifications mentioned by Mr. Horgan to his chairmanship of the board of Bord na Móna?

Mr. John Horgan:

My academic qualifications are in the social sciences, including an MA in industrial relations from Warwick University. That entailed gaining an insight into business, but my experience in the Labour Court was to chair meetings and drive consensus and, on occasion, to assess the viability of companies. I have a lot of experience in that field. My role in GPA was within a section of the company designed to invest in new industries. I mentioned Shannon Aerospace as the single most successful of these, but there were others also.

I was part of a team that assessed projects for their economic and commercial viability. Since then, I have held senior positions in other companies as part of a senior management team. I think I can bring those qualities to bear on this position. I see my role as being the chairman of the board, rather than having a personal vision. I have to bring the board with me. I must ensure the management brings forward the kinds of proposals that will see the company go forward. I need to take account of and balance the claims of various stakeholders in the company. I refer particularly to the Government and to the Minister as shareholder. There are other stakeholders in this as well. Some local communities depend on it. They have contributed greatly to the success of Bord na Móna. All of those interests have to be taken into account. This issue has environment and energy aspects as well. We have to reflect the part we will play in national energy policy. It is actually quite a complex company.

A key part of my role as chairman will involve organising the discussion when the needs that have to be balanced are brought to board level. I must ensure the members of the board are fully informed on these issues and have an equal say on them. They will all have an equal responsibility for developing the policies and the direction of the company in the years ahead. There are major decisions to be made in that context. From what I have seen so far, many good and carefully thought-out policies are in place. An extremely good process - the Bord na Móna deal process - is pursued by the management and the board in a rigid and disciplined manner when major investment decisions are being made. It ensures no rash decisions are taken and everything is evaluated carefully. As part of this fixed process, the board is told what stage each decision is at and whether it is looking good as an investment or as a way to go. I have to pay tribute to the many good things that are in place to ensure the future of the company.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I will take all the questions first. That will be faster and more efficient. We need to be out of here by a certain time.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Horgan for attending this meeting and making himself available. I appreciate the initial presentation that has been given. I acknowledge Mr. Horgan's comments about the history of Bord na Móna and its place as a social and economic driver in this country, especially in the midlands. Before this week, Bord na Móna provided approximately 800 full-time and part-time jobs in my constituency. Mr. Horgan said he sees his role as being that of a chairperson, first and foremost. He said he will allow debate to take place and ensure that a means of making decisions is in place. Given that he has been on the board since April, I am sure he has already formulated many opinions. I assume he has ideas about how Bord na Móna might succeed. He will have formed a view on how the board might direct the chief executive and the staff to drag the company back to its former greatness. It is against that background that I would like to ask some questions and seek some opinions. I am interested in the ideas that Mr. Horgan might bring to the fore as chairperson of the board as he seeks to maximise the company's potential and profits. Ultimately, his goal must be to maintain the Bord na Móna jobs in the regions.

It was widely known prior to this week's announcement that morale is not excessively high among the staff of Bord na Móna. Does Mr. Horgan have an opinion on that? Is he aware that unions at the company have circulated a motion of no confidence in the chief executive, to be taken by the board? That development has been brought to my attention. It is an indication that things have reached a fresh low despite the recent announcements. Mr. Horgan mentioned that the company has approximately 1,800 staff throughout the country, across core and non-core facets of its operations. This week's announcement affected 5% of that workforce. As chairman designate of Bord na Móna, does Mr. Horgan feel that restructuring of this nature is fair and proportionate? I remind the committee that 105 temporary staff are being let go and a further 90 staff, all of whom have been working in core sectors of the company, are being placed on short time. Perhaps this measure would be seen as fairer and more proportionate if it involved some other means of bringing the wider workforce into the picture.

At a meeting on 6 September last, the board was informed that savings of approximately €18 million were needed following the poor harvest this year and the not-so-great harvests of previous years. We would like to know what sort of stockpiling was carried out in previous years. Was it sufficient to accommodate the needs of customers this winter and into next year? I understand that a figure of €24 million was mentioned at the meeting of 13 September even though the harvest had improved by 10% by that time. The required savings had increased by €6 million even though the an improvement on the expected harvest had materialised. Why, in that context, was there such a large expectation that staff would take a further hit?

The losses being incurred by non-core sectors of Bord na Móna in areas like waste management and wind energy, as opposed to its core peat production operations which remain profitable, appear to be dragging the company down. What steps have to be taken, in Mr. Horgan's opinion, to ensure there is a focus on the core activities of Bord na Móna? The company's asset management plan has yet to be published. Is the board contemplating the closure of workshops? If it is, where are those closures likely to happen? What will those workshops be replaced by? At what cost, in terms of funds and jobs, might all of this be done?

Over the years, Bord na Móna had prided itself on the quality of its workmanship and professionalism in trades such as fitters and electricians. Many people in the manufacturing sector throughout the country have been asking me about the noticeable fall-off in this regard. Huge expertise has been built up over time in the training sector. What role does Mr. Horgan envisage that this sector will have in the future? If it is the case that these workshops are to be thinned out to such an extent, is it not fair to assume the company will not take on the number of apprentices it has taken on in the past? If that is what will happen, I hope the board will try to find a means of collaborating with other providers of education in order to continue what has traditionally been done in this regard.

I will conclude by asking about the Government's policy involving the proposed sale of State assets. Does Mr. Horgan expect that Bord na Móna, or any parts of it, will be put up for sale in line with the Government's policy on the sale of State assets?

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for cutting across the Deputy. A mobile telephone that has been left on is causing severe problems for the broadcasting unit. I ask everyone to make sure their telephones are turned off.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have asked many questions of Mr. Horgan. Perhaps it is not fair of me to do so at this early stage, but it is important for me to get a feel for where he stands on the decisions that have been taken by the board in recent months and how he sees the issues in question being resolved. For example, it has been suggested that operations in other feedstock areas will be subjected to continuous reviews. When will those reviews be completed? Have we seen the last of the restructuring at this stage?

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I am planning to allow more members to contribute to the discussion at this stage. Is Mr. Horgan happy with that approach?

Mr. John Horgan:

I am happy for the Chairman to proceed as he sees fit.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Horgan for his initial remarks and for facilitating our questions here today. I do not want to duplicate other questions that may be asked. I will focus on a couple of specific areas. Mr. Horgan said in his presentation that Bord na Móna is "at a crossroads". He mentioned that it has diversified and I presume it will continue to diversify. He referred to the company's "largest single investment in wind farms at Mount Lucas and Bruckana".

Will Mr. Horgan comment on Bord na Móna's policy on investment in the wind energy business? How will this policy evolve in terms of working with communities to create goodwill and encourage their involvement in the process? The joint committee was contacted recently about a case in north County Mayo which relates to 5,000 ha of land that was compulsorily purchased in the 1950s for peat production to supply Bellacorick power station. Part of the site was sold privately in the 1990s and last week Mayo County Council granted planning permission for the erection of wind turbines on the site. I understand the ESB and Bord na Móna plan to erect some of the highest onshore wind turbines in Europe, if not the world, on the land in question. Each turbine will have a span equal in size to Croke Park, which is another site being discussed by everyone in the county this week for different reasons.

I do not have any agenda other than to ensure communities work together with those who are developing the energy resources the country needs. We are all aware of another energy development close to the planned location where mistakes were made in the initial stages. An issue arises because local communities and groups cannot secure planning permission to become involved in the wind energy business. While I accept that Mr. Horgan cannot discuss this case in detail, I ask him to give a general opinion and outline how he envisages this issue developing in future. Perhaps when he assumes office he will negotiate with communities to enable them to become involved in, buy into and support Bord na Móna's policies on wind energy.

Colm Keaveney (Galway East, Labour)
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I welcome Mr. Horgan, whose appointment will be wonderful for Bord na Móna and the country, especially given his qualifications in the area of organisational management and leading change. His appointment comes at a time of significant challenges for the company and I wish him the best of luck in that respect.

The singular message of Mr. Horgan's welcome and precise report is the need to diversify, expand and find a more sustainable foundation for Bord na Móna. Deputy Cowen highlighted a number of issues at micro-level which involve significant changes for individuals and communities. I ask Mr. Horgan to expand on the critical, strategic role for the company, including in the area of innovation and, in particular, big wind energy. Will he share with us the challenges he experiences in respect of the capacity of the Government and the various agencies to react and respond in a manner that will ensure Ireland is an innovator in this area? How can Ireland become a world leader in packaging innovation, technology and our resources, especially in light of the finite carbon energy resources available to us? How can we maximise wind energy for job creation and as an alternative to imported energy sources in the shortest possible time?

I am also interested in hearing Mr. Horgan's views on the issue of community, which is very important, and the urgent need for the Government and its agencies and organisations to respond by providing policies that will ensure a joined-up approach and prevent a scenario in which Bord na Móna is left on its own. It is important that people are clear that the State receives a dividend from the activities of Bord na Móna. We expect such a dividend annually and it is of great importance given the challenges facing the Exchequer.

Will Mr. Horgan outline what will be his priorities for the next 18 months? How can capital investment in big wind energy be accelerated to deliver dividends in terms of the cost of energy to consumers? Will he also address the issue of community buy-in to wind energy projects and some of the fears that are emerging in respect of this type of investment? There is considerable artificial resistance to everything in society. How will the issue be moved on as quickly as possible and what are the challenges facing Mr. Horgan in that respect?

Mr. John Horgan:

I will first address Deputy Cowen's questions. He asked about morale and whether I was aware of the motion circulated by the trade unions recently. I am aware of it but do not agree with it. I have every confidence in the managing director of Bord na Móna who has done an excellent job since his appointment. I have observed him in action and will have a very good working relationship with him in future. I look forward to that and do not envisage any difficulty in that respect.

The Deputy also asked about the fairness of the lay-offs and cutbacks which unfortunately had to be implemented in light of the catastrophic failure of the harvest due to the weather. As the Deputy will appreciate, in harvesting turf one needs a four-day stretch of good weather to complete a cycle. This summer we had few extended periods of good weather. That is the simple reason.

The board has met on four occasions over the past two months and has been continuously kept up to date by management on progress on the harvest since it became apparent that there could be a problem. We have met and continually revised the estimates of the harvest and actions that needed to be taken to mitigate the effects of these estimates. At our most recent meeting, the board decided on a course of action that I fully support. I have no difficulty in taking full responsibility for all the decisions the board has taken since I joined it and I will continue to take full responsibility for all decisions it makes during my membership.

While the question of fairness will arise, it is the policy of the board that decisions shall be as fair as possible and should not be targeted at particular individuals. However, they must be effective in the prudent management of the company's resources in this extremely difficult time. Further decisions will have to be taken in relation to the next financial year. For the moment, I believe what we are doing this year will be sufficient for this year. However, I cannot give any undertaking that more serious measures will not have to be taken. Some of the solutions that were put in place in the mid-1980s, when lay-offs also occurred, are not available to the board at this stage.

The Deputy rightly pointed out that there have been losses in AES, the waste recovery business that was acquired by Bord na Móna some years ago, and the company had to take a write-down on that asset this year. Everything possible is being done to try to turn that around but it is a very difficult business to be in at the moment. Other companies in the same business are experiencing even worse difficulties than AES because of increased landfill levies and other issues. It is not the kind of business that Bord na Móna thought it was going to be when it took the decision to get involved in it. That business must be turned around and will be.

A question was posed regarding the closing of workshops and the asset exercise that is under way. That is an ongoing exercise that will have to be looked at in the light of the development of works in the relevant areas. I do not have the details of it with me but the unions and employees are being kept fully informed on the progress and the outcome will be subject to negotiation and, hopefully, agreement at an appropriate time.

The issue of education and the intake of apprentices was raised but I do not have information on that at the moment. It is something I have not looked at yet but I will do so and find out how it is being managed. I agree that it is important that Bord na Móna plays a part in the training of apprentices and the suggestion that we seek collaboration with other educational institutions is an interesting one which I will follow up on.

The Deputy asked about my attitude to parts of the business being up for sale, which is something that I referred to in my opening statement. We now have a very complex situation and there are lots of other interests to be taken into account in the development of Bord na Móna going forward. The decisions on which parts are put up for sale, if any, or on whether Bord na Móna is merged with some other company - there was talk of it being merged with Coillte - are not for the board of Bord na Móna to take. Those decisions will be taken by the Government. I am conscious that NewERA is in place now and that any major investment decisions will go through that process as well, so it becomes quite a complex matter. As far as the board of Bord na Móna is concerned, we want to play the fullest part we can in using the very considerable and valuable resources we have for the benefit of the communities in which it operates and of the shareholder and the country at large. That is a very onerous responsibility but there is great potential there.

I will now address Deputy O'Mahony's questions. Bord na Mónawas one of the first organisations to enter the wind energy business, with the development of the wind farm at Bellacorick. I remember seeing it when it went up first and was amazed at it. It was a very innovative idea at the time. Bord na Móna puts a lot of emphasis on innovation and spends a very large proportion of its budget, relatively speaking, on innovation. It has a very definite programme of innovation that is targeted and monitored by the board on a monthly basis. As part of the board papers we get a detailed report on how many innovation projects are going on - currently over 100 - and at what stage they are at. Innovation is absolutely crucial to the success of the company and enormous effort is put into that area. It is very important that we work with local communities, particularly in relation to wind energy, and we will continue to do so. We have a good track record in dealing with local communities and planning authorities with respect to large infrastructure projects. That is a very valuable asset that exists within the competence of Bord na Mónabut it must be harnessed and put to work.

To be frank with the Deputy regarding the Mayo lands, I am not sure I fully understand all of the issues involved in that yet. I had a very short briefing note on the matter but need to look into it further. I assure the Deputy that I will examine it in detail and see if progress can be made.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Sorry Chairman, if I might just interrupt Mr. Horgan for a moment. As I said, the whole context of this issue is hugely important. There must be goodwill and transparency. The land was compulsorily taken away. It was sold privately and the local people have difficulties in earning a living, while beside them they see the land that was taken from them, although admittedly paid for. That is a big issue.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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In fairness, Deputy O'Mahony, Mr. Horgan is the chairman designate.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I know that and I do not wish to push the issue. I am using it as an example of the challenges that are facing him and the board of Bord na Móna in the coming years. It is an issue to be revisited at another time.

Mr. John Horgan:

It certainly is and, as I said, I have been briefed on it. I understand in part, what happened. Local landowners were refused permission in circumstances where they believed Bord na Móna would have been given planning permission or indeed, got planning permission next door and to them, that seems unfair. I do not know all of the ins and outs of the case. I know that much and no more. The Deputy has drawn my attention to an issue upon which I have been partially briefed and I will give it my full attention if, or when, I become chairman.

I thank Deputy Keaveney for his kind comments and I hope my experience in change management will be useful. In terms of our role in wind energy, I see Bord na Móna having a huge part to play in the implementation of the national wind energy policy. We have a lot going for us in this area. We have a land bank that is uniquely suited to wind farms and there is a lot of work being done within Bord na Móna to identify the potential that exists, which is enormous. We also have experience in wind farms and in generating electricity. We have the engineers and electricians to do the work. We also have enormous expertise in large infrastructure projects, in obtaining planning permission and so forth. We have a great future in this area but we need to be focused in our involvement. As to the exact way in which Bord na Móna would be involved, I am open-minded. I do not have fixed views on whether we should get involved alone or through joint ventures. I am in favour of leveraging all of the great advantages that we have to the maximum extent for the maximum benefit of the communities, Bord na Móna, the shareholder and the nation.

Various people have made proposals to develop very large wind farms. The east-west interconnector is being opened this afternoon which will greatly improve the potential for the export of electricity from Ireland to the United Kingdom. If that is to take place, I would like to see Bord na Móna have a large role in it, but it must always be based on Bord na Móna getting maximum value for the shareholder and the company.

It cannot be on the basis of being in just because we have to be or being in cheap. We must take a very hard-nosed approach and drive the best deal we can with whoever we joint venture with or share in any capacity. This will be a big challenge for us. We must make sure we are not taken for granted or pushed into doing something because it looks good or because someone else says we should do it. We have to recognise the enormous value Bord na Móna has and leverage that. That should be our approach, in a general sense.

The Deputy asked about my priorities. In 18 months time, I would like to see us well advanced in that project. It will not be built by then, of course, but I hope we will have a big and valuable stake in it. That is one of the things I would like to see us do.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Horgan is very welcome. I thank him for coming and offer him every good wish in the chairmanship of Bord na Móna.

I would not be inclined to include on my CV the fact that I was a member of a troika, although his was a more benevolent and beneficial troika in the 1990s than the current one.

Mr. Horgan says he has full confidence in the senior management of the company. I am aware that many in the workforce do not share that confidence. There are allegations of widespread bullying. Some in the workforce argue that while the weather is a factor in the current crisis facing Bord na Móna, mismanagement is also a major factor. Some argue that unless those problems are addressed, possibly by an independent investigation, nothing will change. I would like to hear Mr. Horgan's comments on that.

Mr. Horgan, rightly, says the company is at a crossroads and needs to diversify its activities in order to secure a sustainable future. Does he envisage Bord na Móna moving completely away from peat production? Has he looked at the percentages for peat production compared with wind energy production? Has he projected those ratios over the next five, ten or 15 years or does he propose to do that? What are the main challenges Bord na Móna will face as it diversifies in the future?

We understand the effect of this year's poor peat harvest. In his report, Mr. Horgan said this would have an adverse effect for the next number of years. Has that effect been quantified?

Bord na Móna made a loss of €2.9 million last year. This appears to be due to a write-down of AES. I am struggling to understand the rationale of a company like Bord na Móna getting involved in the waste business. Has Mr. Horgan considered disposing of AES, or will it continue to impact adversely on the company's profit and loss situation for 2012 and subsequent years? What impact will that have on whatever dividend will be paid to the State?

I think I am correct in saying Bord na Móna has more than 2,000 employees. Are there projections for the number of employees Bord na Móna will have in the future? Will the number of employees increase or decline as the company diversifies?

I thank Mr. Horgan.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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I welcome Mr. Horgan to the committee and thank him for his presentation.

The one Bord na Móna success story I am aware of is the waste water treatment units that were in widespread use throughout the country in the past number of years, particularly with the development of single rural houses. Kerry County Council used this system in all its rural houses. They were of a high quality and could compete with any unit being manufactured in any part of the world. How is this business being progressed by Bord na Móna? I believe these units were also being exported.

I come from the border of Cork and Kerry. Barna Bog is a huge disused bog in that area and was an important industry at one time. Could the bog be developed as an amenity? It is lying idle at present and the local community is anxious to avail of it as an officially developed amenity area, with the co-operation of Bord na Móna and possibly of Kerry County Council and local community groups such as the local Leader group, IRD Duhallow. A huge heritage aspect attaches to the bog and it contains interesting flora and fauna. The bog roads are in good shape although they may need some upgrading. I ask Mr. Horgan to examine this matter, perhaps in conjunction with the local communities. I could assist him in identifying the people with whom he could work.

Bord na Móna used to administer a bog road grant which was widely used by people to gain access to turbary areas. In the past ten years these roads have deteriorated seriously and are becoming impassable. The grant was of great benefit to local communities. Could Mr. Horgan, with the assistance of the appropriate Department, investigate this matter? No assistance is given by county councils or Departments for the maintenance of bog roads and the grants are sorely missed.

What is the total acreage of Bord na Móna land under forestry and wind turbines? Lands adjoining wind turbines are often marginal and in poor condition. Could local farmers be integrated into these developments so that they would gain some revenue?

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I remind members that Mr. Horgan is chairman designate of Bord na Móna. It is not fair to query him on specific matters; nor is it the duty of the committee, and particularly of this meeting.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Labour)
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Like my colleagues, I note that Bord na Móna made a loss of €2.9 million last year. Will there be a link between Mr. Horgan's remuneration and his performance as chairman, as well as that of Bord na Móna and whether it returns a profit or increases the number of people it employs?

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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That is a very good point.

Mr. John Horgan:

Deputy Michael Colreavy referred to allegations of widespread bullying within Bord na Móna. I can say with absolute certainty that those allegations are utterly unfounded. We have policies and procedures in place to deal with any complaint of bullying. Moreover, these policies are being revised and will be reissued. There is provision for independent investigations within the organisation which, as is the practice for such investigations, are conducted on a confidential basis. This is done in accordance with good human resource practice and the guidelines laid down by the Health and Safety Authority and the Labour Relations Commission. I reiterate emphatically that there is no widespread bullying within Bord na Móna.

On the issue of peat stocks, their depletion means that Bord na Móna will eventually, in 20 or perhaps 30 years, time, have to abandon peat production almost entirely. There are plans in place for this, including plans to remediate the cutaway bog that is left behind and find alternative uses for it. There will be major challenges in regard to diversification, but there are processes in place to ensure Bord na Móna can deal with it in an innovative way. We already have procedures in place by which projects can be measured in order to verify their justification.

Bord na Móna purchased the AES waste recovery business some years ago and, as the Deputy correctly observes, there was a write-down in our last accounts in that regard. Our policy is to turn that business around and make it profitable. Even if we had different plans for it, I would not be at liberty, for confidentiality reasons, to disclose them at this time. As I said, current policy is to turn the business around.

Deputy Tom Fleming asked about the new water treatment units. A great deal of research and development has gone into progressing that project and I am happy to report that we expect to launch several products, based on new and improved technologies, later this year. As I said, ours is an international business with operations in the United Kingdom and the United States, as well as Ireland. A major programme of investment and innovation is under way and we expect to bring several successful products to market very soon.

In regard to Barna bog, we would like to work with local community groups in developing it. It is a project that must be carefully managed. In the coming years a large number of cutaway bogs will require to be rehabilitated. Many will flood naturally if Bord na Mona stops draining them. They will simply return to wetlands and can be part of a diversity programme. Some can be developed for tourism, while others may be used as water reservoirs. At Garryhinch, for example, we are developing a facility to provide water for Dublin and other parts of the eastern region. There are many other similar projects. Extensive work has been done in terms of what use can be made of exhausted bogs. It was once thought they could be returned to farm land or used to plant forestry, but, unfortunately, many of those projects proved only partially or not to be successful. However, we continue to examine all options. We have had great success with Lough Boora, for instance, where the wetland has been turned into a nature reserve and tourist attraction. Bord na Móna continues to invest in that facility in order to improve the visitor experience. It is an excellent example of what can be achieved and a model for what might be done elsewhere.

Deputy Michael McNamara had an interesting question on whether my remuneration was related to performance. The answer is "No." As chairman designate, I receive remuneration of €21,600 per annum, which I understand is a 10% reduction on the original set fee. At the time of my appointment to the board, I was invited by the Minister to forgo the board member's fee of €12,600 under the scheme in place for that purpose. I declined to do so and I am accepting the full fees for the job. Therefore, I receive €12,600 per annum as a board member and will be in receipt of €21,600 as chairman. That remuneration is not variable and is determined by the Minister, not the board.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Horgan for his attendance and wish him well in his future work with Bord na Móna. The committee will inform the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, that we have concluded our discussions with Mr. Horgan and will forward a copy of the transcript of the meeting to the Minister.

Mr. John Horgan:

Thank you, Chairman. I am grateful for the opportunity to present to the committee.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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We will suspend the sitting for ten minutes to allow members to meet the Commissioner on the plinth.