Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I ask Mr. Strauss to begin his presentation on unemployment and I apologise for all of the formalities.

Mr. Robert Strauss:

I thank the committee for inviting me here today. I feel privileged to be able to share a few thoughts on youth unemployment in Ireland from a European perspective and I shall concentrate on youth unemployment.

I have a PowerPoint presentation. It may be a bit difficult for members to see the map of Europe on the screen, but the darker the shade of blue a country is shown in, the worse youth unemployment is in that country. The very dark blue countries have a youth unemployment rate of over 40%; in the mid-blue countries it is over 30%; and for the others it is 20%, 10% or even less than 10%. The graph makes it quite clear where Ireland is. Ireland is in a bad way but not as bad as Greece and Spain. Clearly it shares a grave youth unemployment situation with a number of member states.

The youth unemployment ratio is worth mentioning because everybody bandies figures around. It has been stated that in Spain and Greece one in two young people are unemployed, but that is just not true. The unemployment rate is the percentage of people who are looking for work or are ready to work but cannot find it. That makes a big difference to the figures for young people, although not to those for the adult population. Most young people aged 15 to 24 are at school. An unemployment ratio, in some sense, gives you a better feeling for what is happening. In a country like Spain it is still a serious figure, at 20%, but it means that one in five - not one in two - young Spaniards are out of work. If we look at the EU 27 as a whole we can see that the ratio is one in ten and not one in five. In Ireland, just over 10% of young people are unemployed. We must bear those figures in mind. A 30% unemployment rate is very serious but it does not mean that 30% of young people in Ireland are unemployed.

Long-term youth unemployment is a serious issue. Unemployment is serious enough, but if one has been unemployed for more than a year one is defined as being long-term unemployed. Ireland is at the extreme right-hand side of my graph and is grouped together with Slovakia, which is perhaps a strange bedfellow in some ways and not one of the classic peripheral countries. Ireland has a long-term youth unemployment share of more than 50% now, a huge increase on the 2008 figure. Unemployment has soared in Ireland and many of those people have been unemployed for more than a year. It is not only a short-term problem but a long-term problem.

I do not think anybody doubts the gravity of the problem. The European Commission has done lots of studies on what needs to be done and what is needed to get younger people from school into work rather than into unemployment. There is a huge amount of diversity across the EU but there is little doubt that young people with no skills or low skills are most at risk of unemployment and longer-term exclusion from the labour market and society. There are much better transitions from school to work in those countries with apprenticeship systems. Both the European Commission and the OECD have done a lot of work in this area. Segmented labour markets are not particularly an Irish problem but they are a problem in Spain, Italy and other countries, which adds to the problems young people encounter in getting a job. Together with apprenticeship systems, traineeships are increasingly seen as a way to help young people. They can be a useful stepping stone into employment.

It is difficult to draw conclusions given the limited time but I have three conclusions for setting policy. The right sort of education and training is key. The one point to make about Ireland is that there is a well-educated young population and high rates of people going to tertiary level education. However, the question is whether they are learning the right things. It is not enough just to get high level skills. A degree is usually good but the right sort of degree is even better for getting a job. It is important too to have the right tools for a successful labour market transition. It is difficult to concentrate support only on the needy youth. It seems to be much better to support all youth. Of course those who are unemployed need particular support. In particular prior to going into the world of work all young people need some sort of support. It is not automatic that one will go from school to a job without any support. Career guidance is useful and helps one to get into employment.

On delivery of policies, one of the favourite terms in Brussels is “economic governance”. It is jargon. There are better and less good ways of helping countries to have the right sort of policies. Is the programme Ireland is now under doing the right thing to get young people into work? Is the economic governance right? Is the troika right? I will just put a question mark over that.

There are Structural Funds. Members are aware of the regional social fund which provides some money. I understand that Ireland is almost too good at spending social fund money so there is not very much to spare to spend on additional youth-oriented programmes. My colleagues came to this country and found all of €2 million not already spoken for. There has been some transferring of funds in this country towards a Youthreach programme.

In terms of direct action by the EU, we are trying to do more to encourage apprenticeships and trainee programmes of the right sort. In particular, we are stepping up delivery with EU support and devising better policy priorities. An action team came to see whether the social fund could be better spent but there was little room for manoeuvre. However, there was a useful discussion between people from the Commission and the European social fund managers in this country.

Importantly, we are now at a key moment of preparing for the next multi-annual financial framework. Those committee members who follow the world of Brussels will know that there will be an extraordinary European summit in November to try to get a deal on the budget. The camps are sharply divided between those who want to reduce spending in Brussels and think that only they pay and those who see that they get lots of benefits from the European social fund and other funds. Within this framework now is the moment to think how Ireland could best spend its new money under the social fund and the regional fund. Current funding has been spent. It has been well programmed. Now is the moment to think how best Ireland could spend in terms of the next seven-year multi-annual framework. Young people should surely be one of the major priorities. I thank members for their attention.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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We will leave questions until the end. I invite Mr. Jack O’Connor to make his presentation.

Mr. Jack O'Connor:

I thank the Chair. We have circulated a short document. Although it is well known, it is important to say that the challenge faced by the Government and by society is on a scale which has not been experienced before. In the four years between 2008 and 2011 Ireland recorded the largest number of job losses, relatively speaking, in any economy across the industrialised world since the Great Depression. It is important to say that is the scale of it.

I will restrict myself to saying three things today because we are in the process of preparing pre-budget submissions and we are awaiting appropriate approval for what we might say. The first point - no disrespect is intended - is that there is something perverse about all of us discussing how to get young people into jobs that do not exist. It is important that we all recognise the elephant in the room, which is that the one-sided austerity approach which has been imposed upon us is not working. We will not succeed in addressing the problem by tricking about with schemes, monitoring them and so on. In order to get people into employment we have to create jobs and in order to do that we have to address the issue of domestic demand and consumption. It is one thing to find ourselves in the situation, as we all do, that we must go along with a recipe that has been imposed. It is another thing to delude ourselves that it is working because that leads to all sorts of other wrong conclusions.

As one who quotes Karl Marx from time to time, I never thought I would see the day when I would be before the committee espousing the virtues of Ben Bernanke, a Republican, who last Thursday evening or Friday morning showed the way forward. The way is the common sense way. I mean no personal offence to Mr. Robert Strauss when I say that he might tell someone over there that countries need space to generate jobs and growth. I imagine he is saying it but they are probably not listening to him either. It is a serious point. If one does not recognise it then one goes down all sorts of culs-de-sac trying to engage in alchemy.

The first point is that we are stuck with the troika programme. We should say we are stuck with it. We should not try to delude ourselves that it is working. We must find a way to gradually step away from it and generate domestic demand in the economy. In the period between 1992 and 1997 when we had enormous and unprecedented success, something of the order of 600,000 jobs were generated within the economy.

These were all sustainable jobs rather than jobs that were created as a result of the bubble. Only 14% of the jobs to which I refer were attributable to exports, etc. The remainder were created as a result of what happened domestically.

We wish to highlight two initiatives. We are not saying that it is not possible to do absolutely anything but we are saying that there is a need to try to mobilise the resources which are available in order to generate some activity in the economy. As the Chairman will be aware, the trade union movement previously articulated a detailed proposal for a stimulus plan which envisaged pumping upwards of €3 billion per annum into the economy to be spent primarily on infrastructural projects. We produced a policy document with which the Chairman and many of his colleagues will be familiar and which is well costed. The Government announced an initiative prior to the summer recess which went approximately one third of the way required in this regard. The announcement to which I refer was welcome but we strongly urge that the Government go the other two thirds of the way. We estimated that what was envisaged in our plan - this was not challenged by anybody - would generate of the order of 30,000 jobs. Our figures in this regard were based on analysis carried out by the CIC and Department of Finance.

We wish to draw the committee's attention to work we are undertaking in conjunction with a number of employers in the manufacturing sector. This work is focused on promoting innovation and creating a context within which existing manufacturing plants in this country would be able to compete for site-of-choice status in the context of new investment and so on. The initiative to which I refer is being promoted by our ideas institute, which is headed up by Mr. Ron Kelly who would be happy to answer any questions members may wish to pose. This initiative started on a very small scale and we are now working with 40 companies throughout the country in respect of it. Basically, it is aimed at creating a context within which we can preserve existing jobs and also compete for new investment by corporations, etc. The initiative is meeting with a considerable degree of success.

We will be making further points in our pre-budget submission. In light of this fact, I will leave it at that for now.

Ms Úna Halligan:

I thank the Chairman and members for this opportunity to speak on behalf of the expert group on future skills needs. I am Úna Halligan and I am chair of the group. With me is Ms Marie Bourke from Forfás, who is head of the secretariat to the expert group. Forfás manages the group's work, keeps its members in line and has responsibility for research analysis and secretarial support. The expert group was established in 1997 and it reports to the Ministers for Education and Skills and Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. Its role is to advise Government on current and future skills needs within the economy and on the possible impact of labour market issues on enterprise and employment growth in Ireland.

Mr. O'Connor referred to 1997, the year in which our group was founded, being right in the middle of the boom time. The reason the group was established was because there was a genuine skills shortage in Ireland at that stage and this was having an effect on a number of multinational companies. I was employed by Hewlett-Packard in 1997 and I am aware that the companies to which I refer were all fighting for the same people and seeking individuals with the same skills. We were caught on the back foot at that point and what is now IDA Ireland informed us that there was a need to create and retain certain types of jobs here. It was necessary to adopt something of a create-and-build-and-they-will-come approach and this is what happened.

Members might ask why the expert group remains in existence in 2012. When I became chair of the group a couple of years ago, we engaged in a careful consideration of the position and identified the fact that we still have a skills shortage. We have very many well-educated people in this country but the question arises as to whether their qualifications and experience actually meet the needs which currently exist in the area of enterprise. That is what our work is about. I will now give the committee a flavour of what we do and I will be happy to take any questions members may wish pose.

A well-educated workforce remains one of Ireland's fundamental strengths. Our economic recovery is highly dependent on a skilled labour force. Educational attainment is highly linked to current prospects in the labour market and has a significant impact in the context of the likelihood of people becoming either employed or unemployed. The need to upskill and engage in conversion programmes for reskilling is vital because almost all occupations are becoming more knowledge-based. This is resulting in a need for an increasing breadth of knowledge, rising technical and regulatory requirements and continual learning.

The Government's Action Plan for Jobs 2012 targets the creation of 100,000 jobs during the period to 2016. In that context, IDA Ireland has programmes in place to help realise job growth in financial services, life sciences, information and communications technology or ICT, content and business services and the emerging clean tech area. Enterprise Ireland is targeting opportunities in areas such as agrifood, life sciences, software, financial-business services, telecommunications, Internet, media and entertainment, clean tech and engineering. The expert group works closely with IDA Ireland, Enterprise Ireland and others in order to address the skills requirements of these sectors of future employment growth potential and ensure we will have the skills necessary to take advantage of any opportunities that arise.

The area in respect of which the expert group can add a great deal of value to the committee's deliberations on unemployment and youth unemployment is through the research and analysis it has carried out in conjunction with those involved in enterprise in sectors and occupations where future job opportunities are expected to arise through replacement - which is an interesting concept - and expansion demand. The group has identified the skills that will be required to fill some of these jobs and has advised the education and training system with regard to aligning its programmes to ensure that graduates, trainees and those engaged in conversion and upskilling programmes will be best equipped to fill these jobs. In conjunction with IDA Ireland in particular we have identified growth areas and sectors in which opportunities exist. We are not saying that young people should not study the classics or whatever at college. We are merely informing them that if they want jobs, they may not necessarily be able to obtain them via their studies in such areas. We are trying to impart that information as we complete various aspects of our research.

There is no easy solution to our problems and a multifaceted approach will be required. In that regard, we are of the view that a cross-departmental approach will be of major assistance. It is our view, therefore, that the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation should ensure that the environment is supportive for job creation; that the Department of Education and Skills should ensure that individuals are appropriately educated and trained to be able to avail of those job opportunities; and that the Department of Social Protection should ensure that the unemployed are supported appropriately while out of work and kept close to the labour market through targeted activation designed to meet individual needs. We are hoping that by means of the Pathways to Work scheme people will be informed of both the programmes they should take and where job opportunities exist. This will ensure that they will not become totally misaligned with the world of work.

In our submission we have elaborated on measures that should be taken by Government in order to tackle unemployment and youth unemployment, including measuring performance through outcomes and value for money in addition to outputs and that said outcomes should focus on progression to employment-self-employment and progression to further or higher education or training; ensuring relevance to labour market and skills needs - this is the fundamental to what we are doing; ensuring that new and revised education and training courses continue to take on board the work of the expert group; and, maintaining emphasis on science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, skills in light of the continuing strong demand for graduates who possess ICT, engineering, math, science and financial skills. In addition, the strong dependence on exports for economic recovery calls for an increased emphasis on multilingual and international sales skills. Our recent report on international trade shows that Ireland has a major issue in respect of the latter.

In our submission we also highlight the fact that the quality and level of mathematical knowledge outcomes for all ranks of national mathematical proficiency must improve; and that structured internships which provide work experience opportunities within enterprise are hugely valuable in improving the employability of students and jobseekers and that these need to be continually increased. Another aspect we highlight is the need to ensure the relevance of intervention to the individual. In that regard, all courses should demonstrate the progression pathway for the learner and underline how the skills and competencies relating to a programme enhance either specific occupational employment potential or employability skills - generic and soft - that are important for enhancing the mobility of the learner within and across sectors. Programmes should be suitable for the aptitudes of the learner and his or her level of educational attainment. The recognition of prior learning also has a role to play in determining appropriate learning requirements for those who are unemployed.

The system must be characterised by flexibility. That is vital, given that we are in completely uncharted territory and will require scope to work out what does and does not work. Where successful interventions are developed, the funding system should have the flexibility to expand on good practice, where appropriate, in addition to curtailing programmes where they are found to be ineffective. The activation system must reward and prioritise successful outcomes. In addition, wider adoption of competitive funding streams should be considered where evaluations have found positive outcomes.

There has been significant progress on several aspects of the action plan. For example, we have identified areas in the information and communications technology sector in which there are significant skills shortages and demands. A range of skills recruitment challenges has emerged for high-level ICT skills, both in companies within the sector and in businesses across the economy. The Action Plan to Address ICT Skills Needs, published last January, outlines key actions in this area. They include upskilling and conversion courses to increase the supply of ICT skills in the period 2012 to 2014 and efforts to double the number of level 8 ICT graduates by 2018. The expert group recommends a further iteration in 2013 of the ICT level 8 conversion programme, to be designed and rolled out in close collaboration with industry.

The Springboard higher education labour market initiative is an important programme, in which I had a role in terms of accreditation and decision making in respect of some of its iterations. The expert group's research for the Springboard initiative identified specific enterprise skills demands around which training programmes could be designed for the 2010 and 2011 calls. This has helped to ensure provision is highly relevant to enterprise skills needs and should, therefore, have optimal labour market outcomes for participants. Improvements have been made to each iteration of the Springboard initiative. Evaluation of the programme will be important in order to ensure progression outcomes to employment are being achieved for the participants. Some of that evaluation has already been done, with very positive outcomes to date.

We are also concerned with offering guidance to the further education and training sector on future skills needs. Helping the further education system to respond more effectively to the current and future skills needs of employers is key to equipping graduates for employment. Earlier this year Forfás provided guidelines for the alignment of further education programmes in the vocational education committees with the skills needs of enterprise. The guidelines emphasised the need to work more closely with local enterprises and public employment services in the development of courses, enhance workplace learning, develop core and generic skills as part of individuals' plans for progression to particular areas of employment, and expand the offering of accredited options within basic education, that is, at levels 1 to 3. These guidelines were circulated to all VECs by the Department of Education and Skills.

Continuous improvement is required to align mainstream higher education programmes with the skills needed by enterprise. Objectives in this regard include a focus on learning outcomes which develop the skills of the individual and are valuable to enterprise, and greater linkages between disciplines such as software and foreign languages, business and science, or engineering and sales. Another key aspect of this initiative is an emphasis on structured graduate placements and enhanced teaching knowledge and experience. We must, for instance, have language lecturers with knowledge of business and a much greater mobility of lecturers to and from industry. We envisage a situation where industry would send somebody into the third level sector with a knowledge of cutting-edge technology, with the benefits in terms of student learnings ultimately going back into business and the community.

A review of undergraduates by discipline highlights the falling numbers qualifying in science, mathematics and computing in the past decade. While these disciplines accounted for 20% of all higher education graduates in 2001, this had fallen to 11% by 2010. With Ireland's economic recovery strongly dependent on export-led growth in sectors such as pharmaceuticals, medical devices, software and engineering, these falling numbers have given cause for concern. As such, the increase in applications for science and computing courses this year is a welcome step in the right direction.

Recruitment difficulties are anticipated in sourcing international sales staff and people with foreign language proficiency in software and engineering. Expanding into new markets requires a ramping up of skills and experience levels. Absolutely key is the ability to sell effectively and for staff right across functional areas of companies to be able to communicate and understand those markets. All of the 42 firms surveyed in the course of the expert group's work on skills for international trade expect employment in their companies to increase by 15% to 20% in the next three years. We identified 2,200 potential job opportunities arising within exporters which could be filled through tailored skills conversion courses, developed in partnership with industry. Specifically, we are recommending conversion programmes to commence in 2013 to address these future employment opportunities. These include: 800 places in customer sales and services with foreign languages at national framework of qualifications, NFQ, levels 6 and 7; 250 places for sales professionals with foreign languages at NFQ levels 7 and 8; 250 places for engineers - mechanical, automation and design - at NFQ level 8 plus; 100 places in international project management at NFQ levels 7 and 8; and 800 places for computing software professionals at NFQ level 8.

There is high recognition in exporting companies of the need to improve employees' foreign language capability in order to boost success in international markets. An improved supply domestically of foreign languages capability, including in German, French, Spanish and Italian, as well as Mandarin Chinese and Japanese, would be of major help to enterprises in achieving their export potential. Individuals who acquire these language skills will inevitably improve their employment prospects. Training in this area should include contextual language learning for specific purposes. For example, managers might need to learn German to communicate with clients and employees, engineers might need to acquire sales skills with German, French or another language and so on. Clearly, all international marketing and sales professionals require foreign language skills.

The expert group recommends the development of a foreign language education policy with a five to ten-year horizon vision across the continuum of primary, secondary and third level education. In order to meet the language proficiency needs of enterprise, we must boost the uptake of modern foreign languages at third level and align assessment of foreign language proficiency with the six reference levels, from basic to proficient, set out under the common European framework of reference for languages. In addition, the Government should set placement targets to ensure Erasmus student placements consist primarily of study and work - in non-English - speaking markets.

Our annual vacancy overview outlines the demand for labour based on trends in advertised job vacancies and is a good indicator of the occupations and sectors where replacement and expansion jobs arise. This is a vital indicator for those organisations providing services for the unemployed. In our most recent report, published in February this year, more than 100,000 new vacant posts advertised in 2011 across nine broad occupations were analysed. This analysis showed that of the approximately 8,500 new advertised vacancies per month in 2011, the most prominently featured sectors were ICT, engineering and utilities, accountancy, financial services and insurance, and production, manufacturing and materials. With regard to occupations, vacancies were most frequent for sales and related occupations, science and engineering professionals, business professionals, administrative occupations, science and engineering associate professionals, and corporate managers and directors. All of these vacancies specified foreign language skills. International sales professionals with foreign language proficiency are in particular demand. As such, we recommend an increase in the number of formal international sales courses at third level, compulsory modules on international sales in business courses and the introduction of a degree and postgraduate diploma in international sales with foreign languages.

I apologise to the Chairman for going over time and thank members for their attention.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Ms Halligan. Several members wish to contribute. I will begin with Deputy John Lyons as co-author of the report.

John Lyons (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Thank you, Chairman. I welcome the delegates and thank them for their presentations. My first question is to Mr. Strauss. I attended the conference on employment organised by the European Commission. In fact, I was sitting across from Mr. Strauss when Professor Bill Mitchell, director of the Centre of Full Employment and Equity and professor of economics at the University of Newcastle in Australia, spoke about the concept of a job guarantee. He pointed out that the model of modern society created unemployment because there were many jobs which, although beneficial to communities, offered no financial dividend to potential employers. Some of Mr. Mitchell's ideas have been adopted in the creation of a job guarantee scheme in rural India with some success, the objective being to prevent further migration to the overswell of cities in that country. Mr. Mitchell likened the unemployment situation to a train departing the station every day with 20% of passengers left behind on the platform. Such a situation cannot continue indefinitely.

As a fairly new Deputy, I get the impression, unfortunately, that there is no move to abandon the existing model. The tendency is to adopt an attitude of business as usual. The reality, however, is that this is no longer sufficient. Mr. O'Connor has argued that the stimulus plan the Government introduced goes only one third of the way towards what is required. When I do the sums, it seems clear that even if we go the further two thirds of the way, we will still have a level of unemployment.

The reality is that the potential labour force of the unemployed includes a variety of people, from those who cannot write their name on an application form right up to those who could write a book about their name and from where it came. This highlights the difficulties in trying to generate employment reach for those in education and training. Will Mr. Strauss elaborate on Bill Mitchell's concept?

I read the fantastic Forfás report before the summer recess. However, there are some elements that are not highlighted enough. As Senator Clune said earlier in private session, sometimes we do not need to educate somebody up to third level as one can acquire the required skills elsewhere, particularly in the IT sector. For example, the FIT initiative for fast-track training in information technology has a 75% job replacement rate with the long-term unemployed, upskilling them over six to 18 months. This is for jobs a person with a university degree could do, although they would not use all the skills they learned with the degree.

I get the sense our fiscal policy is being treated better than our employment policy. We are in unusual times and our employment policy should be as important as our fiscal policy. As Mr. Jack O'Connor said, the elephant in the room is that we are in a country programme and it is excruciatingly difficult to start any activation package. We cannot keep telling people we are training them for jobs that do not exist. We must also look elsewhere at what other jobs we can create that will benefit communities. Most of the unemployed want a job and a sense of engagement. While we cannot offer everyone a highly qualified job, we can offer people a reason to get up every day and be close to the labour market.

As we have been good so far in using Structural Funds, it is not acceptable that we should not have access to the next phase of funding. I hope Mr. Strauss relays to the Commission that it is not right that we cannot have access to the next set of Structural Funds. We need to operate with a sense of urgency. However, we are not operating in such a way as to address ongoing issues with unemployment.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh míle maith agaibh go léir. I disagree with some of the points outlined by Mr. Jack O'Connor. During the so-called boom the unemployment rate stood at approximately 4%; this was made up of frictional, chronic and other types of unemployment. The current 15% unemployment rate comprises individuals who want to work but cannot because there are no jobs.

I agree with the comments on the need for a stimulus package. A stimulus is a type of investment that changes the direction of the economy and creates a multiplier effect. I have a difficulty with the Government's stimulus package in that it is €2.2 billion over six years. If one takes away the capital reduction of €750 million, it actually only adds up to €800 million over six years. That is not the type of investment that will change the direction of an economy. Sinn Féin has produced a similar stimulus package to that of SIPTU, which adds up to €13 billion over four years. Our package identifies the European Investment Bank, private pensions and the National Pensions Reserve Fund as sources for funding. Consumer demand is the key to getting people back to work but it has fallen off a cliff.

With regard to issues of activation, Ms Halligan gave a figure for the number of people going through employment and skills conversion courses. Unemployment is rising by 1,200 a week, while 76,000 emigrated last year. These figures are phenomenal. The 5,000 places for Springboard courses cover only a small group. Conversion courses need to be ramped up to include larger numbers to deal with the unemployment problem. How much funding goes into conversion courses? How many go through all the various conversion courses every year? The Minister for Social Protection has indicated she would like to see various training programmes to tackle youth unemployment, as used in other states. Will Mr. Strauss give his views on such programmes?

I do not believe we do enough with regard to job retention. Germany is very good at identifying particular businesses that need support at specific times to maintain staff levels and get back to profitable operations. What is the comparative European experience in this regard? What lessons can we learn?

Any policy that makes it more difficult for a struggling small business or employer to function is negative. There is a discussion at government level about PRSI contributions for small businesses. It is necessary for employers to contribute to the social insurance contract. However, we also need to ensure that we do not push small businesses over the edge, leading to larger falls in PRSI contributions in the long term.

Are the European Structural Funds proportionate to the needs of the State? Do Greece, Ireland, Spain and Portugal get more per capita than countries with low unemployment?

Ms Marie Bourke:

With regard to the question on activation measures, there are 150,000 people going through the further education system, of which 38,000 are studying for major awards. The balance are minor or special purpose awards which are shorter term. JobBridge has an allocation of 6,000 places and 8,000 have gone through it to date. The ICT conversion programme that started in March this year has 500 people on it, with another 300 to start this month. It is planned that over 6,000 will go through one and two-year programmes from September this year under the Springboard programme, which has been advertised over the past several months. There are 6,000 going through the 2011 programme, with 3,500 graduating in June this year and the balance coming through in two- and three-year courses, graduating this year and the following year.

In December last year the Government announced a labour market activation fund for further education levels, which will be launched in the coming months. It will have about 6,500 places on it for people up to levels five and six. That is aside from the normal higher education mainstream.

Mr. Jack O'Connor:

I do not disagree with anything that has been said today, which is very unusual.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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That might change over the coming months.

Mr. Jack O'Connor:

Deputy Lyons made the point that if the entire stimulus proposal put forward by SIPTU had been implemented - I hope it will still be implemented - it would have resulted in 30,000 jobs.

However, I was attempting to make a somewhat different point to which there are two elements. First, we need to continue insisting on pointing out that one-sided austerity is not working. If we lapse into a space where we are talking in a context whereby we take that as accepted, then we are in a cul de sac. Second, while we should continue trying to persuade the troika and those with whom we are dealing to face the reality and give countries some space - maybe they are coming around in Europe but the problem is how long it will take - we should be focusing on what we can do in the domestic economy to stimulate domestic demand. The danger of debates and discussions which focus on supply-side remedies to the exclusion of that is that we are not thinking innovatively about these matters. While it is a narrow space, there are some levers to hand. It is our assertion that there is more potential in the combination of levers that could be available to us - what could be leveraged and what could be incentivised - than that which is being realised at present and we should always focus on that before we talk about anything else.

We are in favour of the job guarantee concept in principle. We have put forward proposals and I imagine we will reiterate them in pre-budget submissions on social and community-based enterprise schemes which we previously set out in some detail. On the medium to longer term, we have articulated the case for a flexicurity framework around the nature of work today, etc. We fully acknowledge that excellent work is being undertaken by Forfás, as outlined. We do not for a moment suggest that we should not be doing all of these things. We would highlight the point that when one considers the proportion of German students who enter apprenticeships vis-à-visour preoccupation with academic qualifications which are not always of great value, there is a need for intervention at the career guidance level to advise young people in these matters. We need to invest a great deal more at that level so that students are not being streamed into courses that take them to no man's land.

Deputy Tóibín referred to the German approach to supporting job retention. This was critical in the 2008-09 period with the mittelstand. The way the Germans supported the mittelstandgave them an enormous advantage once they got towards the end of 2009. We decided to go the other way and shed jobs all over the place, which was a tragedy.

Lastly, whereas we do not disagree in principle with the emphasis on mathematics and science, there is a tendency in Ireland to swing from one extreme to the other. Apart from the social value, we need to bear in mind the economic potential of culture and the academic disciplines that must be developed to promote that. We still have some advantages in Ireland in that regard in which there is some potential. It is not about disagreeing but it is about perhaps making the point that we need to get the balance right.

Mr. Robert Strauss:

I thank the members for the questions. Deputy Lyons asked what I thought of Professor Mitchell's ideas. My Commissioner is certainly interested in them. Deputy Lyons probably saw him in the room, and he was responsible for Professor Mitchell attending.

The idea of offering everybody who wants it a job provided by the state is essentially what Professor Mitchell is saying. He states people should not be unemployed and if they cannot find a job in the normal sector, the state should provide it. He gave many examples of work that needs to be done in communities, local authorities, etc.

These are interesting ideas. The ideas that people should not be distanced from the labour market, and that it would be much more useful if they are productive rather than unproductive, are very interesting. However, there are some provisos. It has been tried in India and, perhaps, South Africa. Their labour markets and economic situations are very different from Europe. In saying it has worked in practice, it has worked in India where there is massive underemployment in rural areas and it is a different sort of problem from what Europe faces.

The idea of youth guarantees was mentioned by the Chairman and Deputy Tóibín. The Commissioner has long advocated a youth guarantee so that all young people within, let us say, four months of leaving education would either be in employment or offered training or education. The Finns have recently instigated such a guarantee. It seems to be working in Finland but, of course, the Finnish economy was not hit so hard by the crisis. In a country such as Spain, for example, it may be a real challenge to get all the young people who are not working into another programme. Frankly, one sees every reason for training, conversion or something, but there is no point in doing training only for the sake of it. It must be useful, proper training. It is a real challenge for public employment services or others to make the youth guarantee useable, but we certainly favour it. The Commissioner has long said so. In some countries, such as Finland, it works.

Another term for job retention is short-time working. I agree that Germany, and also the Netherlands and Belgium, used it in the first phase of the crisis. The Commission and the OECD do not always agree but we did on this. The Commission stated this was an important element in allowing these countries to weather the crisis to keep a workforce well in touch with jobs. When recovery happened in those countries, companies had the workforce readily available. The problem is if the scheme is extended for many years. Then it becomes an expensive scheme, both for the companies and for the state. A little like my answer as to whether Professor Mitchell's idea is a good one, it has elements that can work but one of the dangers of short-time working schemes or job retention schemes that go on too long is that one can stop the economy adjusting. Economies need to adjust. Some companies cannot go on for ever. The car sector was one of the major users of short-time working schemes. That is fine if the car sector picks up again, but various persons suggest that overcapacity in the automotive sector in Europe is quite high. Does one really want to pour money into preserving jobs in a sector that has overcapacity? It is tricky to know which jobs one needs to support. If one could guarantee that in 12 or 18 months demand would pick up again, then it is excellent but it is not always easy to get it right.

There was a question about whether money from Structural Funds goes to those countries where unemployment is high.

Unemployment rates are not one of the official criteria for divvying out the funds at the beginning of the seven year period. The official criteria are based on wealth in terms of GDP compared with the European average, so the poorest regions and countries of Europe get most per head. However, interestingly, most of those countries which have been most severely hit by the crisis were already poorer than the European average, so Greece and Portugal were already big recipients of European Structural Funds and at least have Structural Funds to offset some of the problems of the fiscal consolidation measures they are currently applying.

Ireland was in the middle. It had done rather well at the end of the decade before last, and so was probably getting slightly less proportionately, but it is at least a beneficiary of ESF money. Germany is rich, does not need the money, does not have unemployment and, therefore, gets very little money. Perhaps coincidentally or fortuitously, most of those countries which have severe unemployment problems now, including Spain, actually get a lot of regional or social fund money.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses. I have found the discussion very interesting. All three speakers who have given us an insight are a reminder to me that there is no magic wand, no one thing we can do, and that it will have to come from all of the different areas.

I will concentrate on one area suggested by a reference Mr. O'Connor made to job creation. I believe not nearly enough is being done to encourage entrepreneurship. I did not even hear the word today, although Ms Halligan perhaps referred to it. I am talking about the possibility of saying to somebody they would start their own business. It is so interesting to go to the United States and find that people there assume a person will start their own business, although it may be only a very small one or the person might only be at school when he or she starts it. However, in order to do that, we have to give people the opportunity to expand.

The witnesses all referred to languages, in particular Ms Halligan, who referred to primary, secondary and third level. I believe we have not done nearly enough in this area. If we can manage to instil in people the fun, the excitement and the joy of having another language, it gives them the first step in that direction.

As I have mentioned previously, I was in Drogheda last year and met two men who were unemployed. I asked them what they had done and they said they had written away and they asked what more they could do. I then came home and met two young men of a similar age who knocked on my door to sell car cleaning products. These two students did very well and later sold on their business to somebody else. It seems there is a different culture in the United States and among some people in Ireland who say "I assume my job is not going to be created for me by somebody else."

What can we as a State do? We can encourage entrepreneurship. I previously mentioned Mr. Jerry Kennelly from Tralee, who sold his business but wanted to stay in Kerry, so he put his money into entrepreneurship education for transition year students. Each year he has over 600 students come to Tralee having been trained in entrepreneurship. I sat beside a young lady who, at 15 years of age, started her own business and is now selling her product on the Internet to 22 countries. She is now 16 and has only one employee, her father. The idea was given there that people should not assume the State or somebody else is going to create a job for them and that they should give some thought to creating their own job. If we can manage to instil entrepreneurship in students at school, we have a much better chance of getting through this.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I welcome the delegation. I have a question for Mr. Strauss. With regard to the EU literature, one constantly comes across references to apprenticeships and the value that is placed on them in Europe. In Ireland, however, apprenticeships have lost their currency and status when compared to the recent position when highly skilled manual work and apprenticeships were much sought after and highly valued.

As the character of work has changed and new forms of work have emerged, the apprenticeship idea has been sidelined because it does not seem to be as directly applicable given the changing character of contemporary work. As the EU literature has so many references to apprenticeships, I wonder whether some European countries have managed to transform their apprenticeship styles and redefine them. It is great to see the term used because it is a very powerful one and has a great resonance with people. For young people in the 1970s and 1980s, to get an apprenticeship with Iarnród Éireann, Telecom or ESB was a big step forward in their personal and working lives. That has dissipated. Young people have difficulty in defining their own importance because they cannot define it in regard to what they aspire to be in their work.

I welcome Mr. Jack O'Connor's very provocative statements about creating more urgency on all of these issues and urging Government to be more active. That is very necessary and we need that sort of sharp, provocative comment. Mr. O'Connor referred to the priorities in terms of creating jobs, finding ways of stimulating the economy and getting more fluidity into it by getting more money moving around and so on. As a counter-comment, I point out that while unemployment is difficult for any individual, it is particularly in working class communities, where there are very large numbers of young people clustered together, that there is a sense of powerlessness which feeds off the lack of hope. These are very precarious situations for individuals and communities, and by the time the general economy trickles down to that level, it may be far too late for them.

There is need for intervention schemes of a very different character. I do not put a great deal of store by some of the schemes we have had in the past in terms of activation measures. Obviously, there has to education and training in regard to literacy and numeracy but we must change the character of those schemes so they engage the individual in their totality. I cannot see why well-being, swimming, mountain climbing, rock climbing, canoeing and so forth cannot be included so we build different points of engagement along the profile of the scheme, the more to engage the person in his or her entirety. Literacy and numeracy are important dimensions to any scheme but we must animate them in much more exciting ways to provide that direct application to the well-being of the young person. If we opt for that kind of scheme, we may find it easier to draw people closer to work.

Deirdre Clune (Fine Gael)
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I thank the participants for their submissions. I follow the Forfás report regularly and know it has been for many years tracking the skills needs of industry. We are in a situation where we had an over-dependence on one sector, the construction sector, so diversification is very important and the STEM subjects will be critical in this regard.

The point about languages seems to come up repeatedly and the development of language skills is probably the most important issue in terms of addressing the needs of students. Traditionally it is not an area which receives a lot of attention but I was struck by comments from PayPal when it tried to recruit here and found that the deficit in language skills was a major obstacle. I welcome the fact that the delegation addressed this issue today.

Germany was mentioned with regard to the apprenticeship sector. Mr. Seán O'Driscoll, whose company Glen Dimplex does a lot of work in Germany, addressed this committee recently. He said that we do not make enough things in this country. Perhaps that also ties in with Senator Quinn's comments about entrepreneurship. Whether one is talking about small or large units, we do not make or manufacture much in Ireland. The point was also made that in the German education system children are streamed at a young age into technical or academic routes. We are a long way from such a system here and apprenticeship is hardly even discussed in the context of jobs in this country. In Germany there is a strong emphasis on pushing children along a more technical route and developing their manual skills. The Germans put great store in such an education, unlike here, where the emphasis is invariably on academic achievements. However, academic achievement is no guide to a person's ability to perform at work.

I would like some more background information from Forfás with regard to skills development in response to the needs of industry, both Irish and international. It is very important to keep abreast of skills development and to be able to predict where skills shortages may develop in the future.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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I would like to reiterate my colleagues' appreciation of the presentations, all of which were very pertinent to today's meeting. We have an unemployment rate of 14.8%, almost 60% of which is made up of people who are long-term unemployed, but there is no sense of urgency. It is not on the radar how devastating not having a job is to a human being. I saw that devastation during the 1980s when myself and Connie Doody set up Lir Chocolates. In certain areas of this city the unemployment rate was 40%. I saw the lack of confidence and the emotional fear in the people we were taking on. They were afraid they would not be able to do the job. To see the transformation in those people when they actually got a job and managed to hold it down was marvellous and motivated me to keep going. I was not interested in profit. In fact, I had never heard the word before and was never interested in it. However, there comes a day when one has to face reality and accept that a business is only sustainable if it makes a profit. I got my energy to keep going from seeing the transformation in people when they got a job.

At the moment I am helping young graduates who cannot get jobs and I am seeing the same devastation again. In the 1980s graduates would have automatically got a job or would have emigrated. Now we have an incredibly highly educated young population. The standard and diversity of their qualifications are quite incredible. I have spoken to young people who went through third-level education and were expecting to find employment on graduating but two years after qualifying, they are still jobless. Their confidence is gone. They hang their heads. They are trying to put on a show-----

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I urge the Senator to ask a question of the delegation. We are pressed for time.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Certainly. I am just finishing my point.

Mr. O'Connor mentioned Mr. Ben Bernanke of the Federal Reserve. I was excited when I saw what he had the guts to do, but that is his mandate - to control inflation and create employment. There is a serious deficit within the ECB in that context. Its role should not just be to control inflation but also to find ways to help reduce unemployment. We need the EU to help us through this crisis. Austerity is not working. People are being-----

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to interrupt again, but we must move on. There are further presentations to come.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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I am pleading with the EU-----

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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That is not the function of today's meeting. We are here to extract ideas and information and discuss them.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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There are fantastic proposals and suggestions here but there is no sense of urgency in terms of bringing them to fruition.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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That is why we are meeting as a committee - to try to advance them.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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I am simply making the point and letting the gentleman from the EU know my position. We are a great country for producing reports but we need action.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I am going to go to Mr. Strauss first, then to Ms Halligan and finally to Mr. O'Connor. I ask them to address the questions raised and then sum up, if they would. We must finish this part of the meeting soon.

Mr. Robert Strauss:

Members asked whether some countries have redefined apprenticeships and the simple answer is "Yes". Germany, Austria and Switzerland are the countries most associated with a well-working apprenticeship system. It is usually tied in with the vocational education and training system. Where it works best there is a seamless transition for pre-teen children or teenagers in a vocational stream towards apprenticeships and then jobs. In the past, such jobs were generally in manual labour or engineering companies but nowadays job options are much broader and can include IT companies and those operating in the services sector. In all developed economies the service sector is now much bigger than the manufacturing sector. Apprenticeships are no longer just for manufacturing jobs.

In Ireland, as I understand it, apprenticeship schemes were most common in the construction industry. That sector has collapsed and is unlikely ever to be as big again, so apprenticeships in the construction sector are of no use because there are no jobs at the end. Apprenticeships must be redesigned to fit in with the modern service economy. Germany and Austria have done this and companies of all sizes have links with the education system whereby the non-academic pupils are drawn through the school system and into an apprenticeship system which gives them highly skilled and well-paying jobs at the end.

Ms Úna Halligan:

In response to Senator Clune's comments about languages, the issue is not just the uptake of languages per se but the uptake of languages in context. Students going to college and learning all about the Greek, German or French classics is not the answer. The answer lies in amalgamating such knowledge with the skills one needs as a salesperson, for example. If one is trying to sell a BMW or agrifood products, for example, the contextual purpose of a language comes to the fore. In our discussions with various companies and particularly indigenous companies working with Enterprise Ireland in developing export markets, we discovered that often they could find very good salespeople who could not speak the required language or else they could find people who were very good linguistically but did not have the other competencies required. This is an issue for the universities and institutes of technology. A language and business studies course that is taught by a German businessperson would improve the context for students, for example. There are enormous opportunities in that area.

Another issue we glossed over was that of sales techniques. As Senator White may know, selling is not marketing. We have found that many young people think a salesman sells cars and suchlike and they do not see sales as a potential career. There is a big difference between public relations and marketing and actual sales techniques. In that context, we have asked the third-level institutions to introduce a sales module to some of their business programmes.

Mr. Jack O'Connor:

I wish to address Senator Quinn's point regarding entrepreneurship, with which I would not really disagree. However, we must be sure we know what we are talking about because we have gone through a long period of confusing speculators and swindlers with entrepreneurs.

There is actually a role for the State in promoting a culture of entrepreneurship. However, there are issues around support, guidance and the provision of seed capital. In our original proposition for the infrastructure fund, we had the idea of providing a development fund and were discussing concepts such as risk sharing and so on.

I wish to make a point that is relevant to Senator Feargal Quinn's contribution. We did not say very much about our innovation in manufacturing initiative today. That initiative is about connecting everybody in the workplace with the task of job retention and creation. Our point is that management is too important to be left solely to managers. What we are endeavouring to do is meet with a measure of success in a number of employments. The Joint Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation might be interested in a presentation on the concept. The idea is to challenge traditional notions on where people's responsibilities begin and end and make the task of job preservation and generation a bigger issue than a task somebody else does.

Deputy Michael Conaghan raised the issue of apprenticeships. Mr. Strauss has mentioned that central European countries have a linkage with the vocational education institutions. I understand also that employers have much better linkages with the institutions than we seem to have. They seem to be able to project the needs in cities and so on and plan for them. As we said, in Ireland there is a preoccupation with academia vis-à-vis apprenticeships. Economies that are more successful seem to have a higher proportion of their people taking up apprenticeships, but the structure of the apprenticeship system is well developed.

We identify the problem as putting the cart before the horse, which is imposed on us all, despite our disagreements. We fix the banks and everything else, with the hope the communities to which Deputy Conaghan referred will fall into place and that people will get jobs. What is happening in Ireland and some European countries as a consequence is that a very sorry scenario is developing. We talk about the crisis in the financial system. There is no crisis. To echo Senator Mary White's remarks, there is no crisis as big as the employment crisis, particularly the youth unemployment crisis. No crisis has the potential to damage our society in the medium to longer term more than the unemployment crisis. We are, therefore, putting the cart before the horse. If we could get people back to work, we could fix the banks. However, there is no point repeating this as nobody listens.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I thank all of our speakers for their useful contributions. We will be engaging more regularly with them in the next few months. I hope we will keep in touch with Mr. Strauss and Ms Nolan. We will finalise our report in the next couple of weeks and hope it will feed into the Action Plan for Jobs, as well as into the preparations for the budget. Some key recommendations were touched on today. We will engage with the Mr. O'Connor on the manufacturing initiative. This is an issue on which we wish to focus, as this topic has been raised in earlier presentations. I imagine we will make a recommendation to tackle that issue in our report.

I welcome Mr. Frank O'Keeffe, partner in charge, Ernst & Young; Mr. Liam Griffin, chief executive officer, Griffin Group, who is part of the Ernst & Young delegation; and Mr. Gerry Moan from the Discovery Zone. I apologise for the delay in starting and understand the delegates must leave at 4 p.m. We will try to finish by that time, but should they need to leave, that will not present a problem. As I outlined the parliamentary practice as the start of the meeting, I will take it as read. The presentation usually takes about five minutes, but the delegates may take more time if they wish to comment on what they heard in the earlier presentations. The presentation will be followed by a question and answer session. We hope our report on unemployment and specifically youth unemployment will feed into the Action Plan for Jobs. We are trying to highlight new ideas that are missing from key areas. I invite Mr. O'Keeffe to take the lead.

Mr. Frank O'Keeffe:

I thank the Joint Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation for inviting us to talk about unemployment, job creation and, most importantly, what we in the Ernst & Young entrepreneur of the year programme do to try to stimulate entrepreneurship. I am the partner in charge of our entrepreneur of the year programme. Effectively, I am the custodian of over 350 of Ireland's best entrepreneurs who have entered our programme in the past 15 years. I help to co-ordinate them and try to be the beacon of light and a voice for what the entrepreneurs on the island of Ireland are thinking and doing.

It is important to recognise that the Ernst & Young entrepreneur of the year programme is an all-island programme, comprising entrepreneurs from different backgrounds and all sectors who have left academia at different stages of their lives but who have common traits around a vision, seeking an opportunity when others see adversity and having the belief to back themselves and encourage others to work with them but, most importantly, having the fearless factor to travel around the world and also nationally to try to win contracts, compete against much bigger companies and generate jobs on the island of Ireland.

That is really important to us.

Thousands of jobs have been generated in 2012 by our Ernst & Young entrepreneur of the year community members. Only 24 entrepreneurs get into the entrepreneur of the year programme each year but as it is in its 15th year we have a group of alumni now that is very strong. Mr. Griffin will talk about that. The alumni are very active and they are giving back. Our entrepreneurs are focused on ensuring that they go back into society because they feel they are very lucky and fortunate to have been successful. In effect, they are going back into their communities and schools to try to help. Senator White talked about confidence. This is all about confidence. I will try to explain that in a bit more detail. Senator Clune talked about making things. What one sees with our entrepreneur of the year community is that we have a lot of manufacturers, not just service-oriented businesses, dotted throughout the island in different regions. I refer, for example this year, to Glenilen which is 300 miles from Dublin in County Cork but still has a fantastic business and an outlet to sell its products.

I would like to try to link what we have done not just on a national level but on a global one in terms of entrepreneurship. I have issued members with some documents on the G20 report. This is what we in Ernst & Young delivered to the G20 when talking about entrepreneurship as a barometer but also in terms of trying to help stimulate aspiring entrepreneurs on what infrastructure needs to be put in place. In Ernst & Young we think that there are five pillars. We in Ireland have fed very much into this piece. The five pillars are entrepreneurship culture, education and training, access to funding at the right levels at the right time, regulation and taxation and the impact government can have working with industry to ensure that the stimulus packages are there and taking a very much co-ordinated approach.

If the Chairman does not mind I will go through the five pillars and try to explain what we think is important. I have given the committee an executive summary of the report. I have the full manual with me and I am more than happy to share it with members at the appropriate time. This is not just our voice. This is what we are hearing from entrepreneurs from all around the world. This is our co-ordinated view from Ernst & Young around what our entrepreneurs throughout our entrepreneur programme in 50 countries are talking about. One thing that is also important is that we do not necessarily have to reinvent the wheel. We see an awful lot of really good things happening in countries such as Canada, the US and Brazil. They have some very good infrastructure to ensure the entrepreneurial spirit is there, not just to help the entrepreneurs of today but, most importantly, to help aspiring entrepreneurs of the future and what they can do to take on a business, be an entrepreneur and grow jobs in their country.

What is important in terms of our entrepreneurship culture is for the Government to consider how it can be put in place throughout society, not just in schools and third level education, so that people feel they have the ability on the island of Ireland to go out and do something different for themselves, which brings me back to what I said about confidence. They do not have to be a Frank O'Keeffe that goes into Ernst & Young but if they have a vision, an idea and a bit of innovation they can go out and do it for themselves. It is important that we foster such a culture on the island of Ireland. It has been done successfully in countries such as Canada where there is detailed infrastructure, and entrepreneurship is constantly promoted for everyone in society.

Entrepreneurship is not just for people with PhDs. It is for anyone with a vision. One of our previous winners left school when he was 14 and now has a successful global business. What we think is important is to use the infrastructure and to use successful entrepreneurs, business leaders, industry leaders and CEOs to get out and tell their story and talk about the successes we have on the island of Ireland. We do a number of things to try to stimulate that ourselves through the Ernst & Young entrepreneur of the year programme. We run five TV programmes on RTE 1 at 8.30 p.m. on a Monday night in which we profile our 24 entrepreneurs from different backgrounds and sectors. We are doing that to try to show and prove to Ireland that it can be done and that everyone needs to have that ray of light.

We have also run an internship programme where we have asked our entrepreneurs to take on an intern, either someone who is a graduate from a university or someone who is unemployed and interested in their sector. We ran a competition where our entrepreneurs took on these interns at our request and now many of those people are successfully employed full time with our entrepreneurs. That is an example of our entrepreneurs giving back. We successfully launched an educational channel called EOY.tv. It contains all of our visuals and clips that we show in schools, businesses and universities around the story of entrepreneurship. I would encourage everyone, as I always do, to try to have a look at it.

In terms of recommendations for Government on the culture, we would like to see the Department of Education and Skills, for example, and Enterprise Ireland, but also industry collaborate on rolling out a national youth strategy on entrepreneurship. That is important. We will talk about a number of aspects of education. In the media one sees a great deal of commentary about foreign direct investment and job enhancement in foreign direct investment but on the island of Ireland we need to be stronger in promoting indigenous businesses and additional jobs. I am sure everyone is aware of the 25 jobs the Jelly Bean Factory has announced in Blanchardstown. Again, it is one of our entrepreneurs. That is really important and stimulates a lot for the community.

One of the areas on which we are very strong is education and training. What we believe in - we hear it from our entrepreneurs - is the importance of targeted entrepreneurship, education and training. Eighty percent of our entrepreneurs globally think that students need to follow specific training to become entrepreneurs. We have issued a lot of literature around whether entrepreneurs are born or made. It is a bit of everything. What is most important is for us to examine the curriculum and help students at different levels to think about entrepreneurship and doing things differently.

A young entrepreneur programme in Kerry is headed up by Jerry Kennelly, one of our judges on the entrepreneur of the year programme. Kerry is now one of the top three entrepreneurial regions in Europe. Jerry Kennelly, through his committee members, works tirelessly with second level students from the age of 11 upwards. They run a competition in Kerry and bring the finalists around the country to show how business activity works. These young people are generating businesses and jobs while they are still in school. It is giving them a different outlook in life, which is really important.

We also have just launched our Ernst & Young entrepreneur of the year. It is a university series where we have agreed with all of the universities that we will ask our entrepreneurs to go into the universities with us to talk about their experiences - the ups and downs, the reality and the fulfilment of doing something different, working for oneself and fulfilling one's dream, which is key. Our alumni are very focused and are currently rolling out a programme. They do not have a lot of time but they are willing to give some back. With us, the likes of Mr. Griffin and other entrepreneurs throughout the island of Ireland are currently building a programme where entrepreneurs are going into secondary schools. They are also teaching them about entrepreneurship and talking to them about growing jobs in different industries and sectors, and there is positivity and an opportunity for Irish people to do it for themselves.

There are many other issues but our recommendations are around education. One of the fundamentals is catching people early. It is not just looking at unemployment today, it is looking at the heightened level of potential unemployment in years to come. One other document which I have issued, which I would like to share with the committee, is the Ernst & Young Economic Eyesummer forecast for 2012. It gives an all-island flavour. We are looking at Northern Ireland and the South of Ireland. One thing that concerns us most in the Ernst & Young entrepreneur of the year community is the high level of unemployment for semi-skilled young males between the ages of 18 and 30. It is about trying to see how we can capture those issues early enough or give people the opportunity early enough to understand that there is a different opportunity for them, regardless of their academic ability based on their skill sets, and that it is a career option.

We are also seeking to get involved in working with the Department of Education and Skills in training the trainers. It is very difficult to get to every school and student but if we can get the entrepreneurs to talk to the educators and get them to show the educators the way they have been successful, then they can bring that into the curriculum and talk to the students about it. That is really important.

For us, the collaboration between educators and industry is key.

Another issue which might not be discussed enough in the media is technology. A significant number of IT jobs remain unfilled at present. We ran a technology seminar a few weeks ago at which one of our very high-profile IT entrepreneurs indicated that his biggest frustration is the fact he cannot find individuals of sufficient quality or experience on the island of Ireland to take up employment with his company. Those in the sector do not want the jobs to which I refer to go anywhere else. They are of the view that if they could work with the educators in respect of the curriculum in order to create focused opportunities for students, then these jobs could be filled. This is an important aspect.

Other initiatives we would suggest are in the area of mentoring. Within the Ernst & Young entrepreneur of the year community, mentoring happens on a peer-to-peer basis all the time. However, we are of the view that there should be further mentoring initiatives for students and those seeking jobs. For example, a significant number of jobseekers might be considering particular industries and those in said industries and entrepreneurs could give something back - in community-based seminars in different parts of the regions - to these people in order to try to help them with their confidence and to assist them in understanding how they might obtain employment in their field of choice or expertise. This can be done in many different ways. We have a population of over 350 entrepreneurs in our community. These individuals are all willing to give back and they do so. It is important, however, to have in place co-ordinated supports and structures in this regard.

I am over-running on time at this stage so I will try to summarise the other points I wish to make. Access to funding is the third pillar. I am aware that this matter was discussed with the previous panel. There are many good initiatives being taken and many good things being done at present. I have listed a number of these in our submission. Potential and aspiring - not just existing - entrepreneurs need to have access to funding at many different levels. Sometimes businesses only need a small amount of confidence, equity or debt capital in order to move forward. We are of the view that there should be an overarching Government-led initiative which would focus on educating aspiring entrepreneurs and making them aware that while there are certain barriers to entry, these can - with the right level of support and guidance - be broken down. That is absolutely key. A large majority of our entrepreneurs interviewed globally - 80% - indicated their belief that governments have a really important role to play in creating the right environment for access to funding for young and aspiring entrepreneurs.

Our feedback to this committee revolves around trying to ensure that there will be some co-ordinated exploration of further credit guarantee systems and banking sector support, not just for SMEs but also in the context of advising and educating aspiring entrepreneurs. There is also a need to try to focus on and embrace business angel networks. In the context of sources of finance, such networks probably offer higher-risk funding and will invest smaller amounts for larger bets. I have just returned from a trip to Silicon Valley in the US for a retreat which was attended by 115 people who participated in our entrepreneur of the year programme. We learned a great deal from many of the top educators from Stanford University, University of California Berkeley and Singularity University, spent time with the global CIO of Apple and paid a visit to the headquarters of Facebook. That retreat is all about trying to help stimulate existing entrepreneurs into thinking differently and growing their businesses. In Silicon Valley, we learned much about access to venture capital and business angel networks. We also learned that it is sometimes okay to be unsuccessful or to start a business for the second or third time. The latter is where confidence comes into the equation. There is a view in Silicon Valley that it is something of a badge of honour to have started again or to try again. There is a particular confidence that exists in the ecosystem that is Silicon Valley and we must consider ways in which we might replicate this.

Our fourth pillar relates to regulation and tax. Globally, there is a recognition that having the correct regulation and tax system to really assist the development of an entrepreneurship culture and allow aspiring entrepreneurs to create jobs is extremely important. In that context, industry must be brought in at the right level. We must therefore use the best CEOs that are available on the island of Ireland in order to understand how we might achieve the right level of regulation and the correct balance of taxation to ensure industry assists the Government in rolling out a strategy and a plan. There are some good examples in this regard. Our corporate tax rate is extremely important. One of our entrepreneurs, Mr. Terry Clune, founder of ConnectIreland, is considering how we might use the diaspora to generate and increase the number of jobs on the island of Ireland. Our recommendations in this regard involve designing and building an effective, inclusive, stable, incentivised and targeted system and using entrepreneurs to become involved with and get behind that system.

The final pillar to which I wish to refer relates to co-ordinated support. There is a great deal of support available and many good things are being done in particular areas. However, there is a need to co-ordinate this support and adopt a one-stop-shop approach. The latter is very important for aspiring and smaller SME entrepreneurial businesses. Taking a one-stop-shop approach to simplifying company registration and taxation procedures and educating people on how to get their enterprises off the ground would be extremely useful and would have an impact. Many entrepreneurs do not establish businesses because they simply do not understand how they might do so. We are of the view that Enterprise Ireland, the Department of Finance, the Revenue Commissioners and the CRO could come together - by means of a simple, one-stop-shop approach - to explain how to get a business off the ground.

Those are the five pillars we wish to advocate. We think they are extremely relevant to this conversation and we hope members do too. There are some areas in which things are done fantastically well. We do a great deal of good stuff on the island of Ireland but there is also an element of best in class and, as a result, there is not necessarily a need to reinvent the wheel. Much of what we are advocating is contained in our "Entrepreneurs speak out" brochure, which has been circulated to members. I would be delighted to forward to them the full document. Our entrepreneurial community has a really strong voice and comprises some phenomenal people. I am not an entrepreneur; I am the partner in charge of the programme. However, Mr. Griffin is an entrepreneur. He and some of his fellow alumni possess some of the best business brains on the island of Ireland. We have a very co-ordinated body of alumni and these individuals are focused not just on growing their businesses and creating jobs but also on giving something back.

We would like to offer to return for an additional meeting with the committee - if it was of the view that this might prove beneficial - with members of our wider entrepreneurial community. I refer here to bringing before it people with different backgrounds from various sectors in order that they might discuss some of the individual initiatives they might advocate.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. O'Keeffe. We will hear from Mr. Moan before taking the question-and-answer session. Some members have been obliged to leave in order to attend various other functions and meetings. As Senator Quinn indicated prior to his departure, he really wanted to be present for this part of the meeting because he has a particular interest in entrepreneurs. He referred a great deal to Mr. Jerry Kennelly - who was also mentioned by Mr. O'Keeffe - and stated that he contacts him by telephone almost every week. The Senator asked me to apologise on his behalf for the fact that he was obliged to leave.

Mr. Gerry Moan:

I am here to represent Discovery Zone but for the past 20 years I have been working with entrepreneurs. Mr. Jack O'Connor referred to putting the cart before the horse. In that context, I am the horse. The Chairman asked me to provide an outline of the work of Discovery Zone. Before doing so, I wish to take up a number of the points made by Mr. O'Keeffe.

The notion of start-up and entrepreneurship development is key to what we do in the business I run, which is a training company that is very much focused on entrepreneurship. My voice is hoarse because I have just left 350 screaming kids in County Meath who are taking part in the student enterprise awards scheme and who are developing start-up businesses. Next week, I will be spending time with 700 students in County Donegal who are involved in start-up enterprises. When people state that nothing is happening on the ground, I am of the view that this is because the news is just not getting to them. Information on the really good stuff that is happening is just not reaching those who make decisions.

In the context of what I do and what Discovery Zone involves, I too am a business angel and I invest quite an amount of time, energy and money in technology and manufacturing start-ups.

For our part, we have a brand we call SmartStart that helps small and medium-sized technology businesses that want to grow and do more. We start out with seed capital and we help them to attract further investment in investment centres such as Philadelphia and Silicon Valley, which is much lauded but, as I know having visited it, not the only jewel in the crown. There is a way of tapping into our diaspora that we need to take account of and our diaspora in other centres of population are more than keen to invest in our technology start-ups and early stage growth companies. Our experience leads us to believe that Silicon Valley is not the only place we should go for that work and that there are other business communities that would be equally appropriate.

The Discovery Zone arose out of my personal frustration at watching the unemployed, whom we are now more than familiar with through all the statistics. I am sure members are equally familiar with them. I do not mean to be flippant. It is a depressing state for us to be in but let us get the horse before the cart. For the past 12 months we have been running a pilot programme of 15 would-be entrepreneurs who are themselves professionals but who have come from a state of unemployment. By the end of the 12-week programme, we are finished working with them and the business has started. I emphasise it is not a "start your own business" programme, and this is for a specific reason. We are of the firm opinion that "start your own business" programmes and, in a similar way, the apprenticeship programmes alluded to earlier in the meeting are in need of a major overhaul. The Discovery Zone is an attempt to try to address that.

Senator White and Deputy Conaghan referred to the notion of personal development and the well-being that is missing when a person loses a job. For example, a person may have had 15 years' involvement in a major corporate or a major entity and is now devoid of direction. We provide such people with quite a bit of personal coaching and psychometric evaluation, all from fully qualified professionals who, in turn, guide, coach and counsel them through that trauma. That exists as a lifeline for them to the point where - I do not mean this in any flippant way - we have renegotiated terms for people in danger of having their electricity cut off or got their dole back in order to keep them on the programme and to keep the idea they have at the forefront.

We have had 90 people through the programme and, while it has not been a 100% success, it has been damn near it. Of the 90 who have come through the programme, 81 are still in business and, not alone that, 15 of them have gone through to the enterprise platform programmes, which are Enterprise Ireland's way of growing high potential start-ups. Therefore, 15 of the 90 have gone on to grow high potential start-ups and, in turn, attract angel investment in their own right. We have taken the balance of those and we have helped them employ others through the student enterprise schemes, the academic programmes and the network we, as a business, are involved in. Our entrepreneurs and student base come to coach, counsel and work inside those start-up businesses to help them become more successful.

It is early days. We are only 11 months delivering Discovery Zone but I think it is working. We are running around every county enterprise board or any other begging bowl we can get our hands on to try to get it funded because there is no one central pot to fund it from and there is no joined-up thinking. I echo Mr. Frank O'Keeffe's thoughts when we talk about the notion of joined-up thinking. We have the opportunity ahead of us to form these LEOs, or whatever it is we will call them, but we have to manage that very carefully for the entrepreneurs who are on the ground so it does not become about whether people have paid their tax, whether their parking fines are up to date or whether their television licence is paid. It has to be very much about the support and advice those start-up businesses need.

This includes issues such as taking a loan note in lieu of rates. Rather than our county councils looking at a start-up as a rateable opportunity, they would take a loan note and agree that the county council will take equity in the business until such time as the money can be repaid. That is a much more proactive way of growing our start-up community and entrepreneurship, rather than just looking at them as a place to tax. A speaker at the MacGill conference - a woman from the United States whose name escapes me - talked about how she saw every single business as one that would contribute to the community, but only when it could afford it. There is merit in that, particularly in regard to rates.

We call those who have come through the programme "graduates" and the programme is designed to meet the national qualifications framework. To be honest, none of the entrepreneurs have wanted the actual qualification. I do not know whether that says anything about the currency of the qualification but they have not wanted the qualification and have been more inclined to get the business out of the ground. This will be what is found with regard to the work we do, and I see some of the other witnesses nodding in agreement. That is not relevant for entrepreneurs, although it is absolutely relevant for their employees, and is a very credible thing to do.

However, we also need to re-evaluate and re-appraise how we teach entrepreneurship. We cannot teach it, with all due respect to FETAC or HETAC, from academic qualifications and standards that go back to the days of AnCO. We are a FETAC and ILM accredited delivery centre yet we are given AnCO approved standards rebadged by FETAC against which to deliver. They are not relevant and our entrepreneurs do not see them as relevant. It was great to hear one of the previous speakers talk about sales and salesmanship now being introduced into the academic curriculum.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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We are looking for that but it is not there yet.

Mr. Gerry Moan:

It needs to be.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it desperately needs to be.

Mr. Gerry Moan:

Both the marketing and business aspect need to be led by entrepreneurs. There is an opportunity with the institutes of technology in particular, as they are on the ground with regard to much of the vocational aspect, to undertake some entrepreneur shadowing. It would be brilliant to tie EOY into this, whereby entrepreneurs with previous experience could be tied into those who are in the business streams in order to mentor them, guide them and to act as case studies because, again, the other case studies are 25 years old.

I see that Deputy Calleary agrees with me. The dilemma for the committee, with all due respect to its position, is that it is a question of the horse and the cart. We all seem to agree with what is needed on the ground. It is really about the energy, passion and conviction needed to get it off the ground. We cannot do that in the vacuum that currently exists or while we are waiting for county councils to decide whether they want to encourage enterprise or not. We cannot do it while we are waiting for county enterprise board officials to stop sitting on their hands and decide whether they are going to do this or not. Enterprise Ireland needs to take account of what is going on with the business angel community and of the recompense for entrepreneurs who go forward to the angel stage.

How it is that I can get tax relief on property and be allowed to invest the bulk of my pension in property, a market that we know has failed us, but I cannot invest the bulk of my pension in start-ups? It does not make sense and needs to be reappraised. I do not know if committee members see this on the ground but we do. I thank committee members for their time.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Moan. That concludes our round-table discussion in terms of presentations and we have had many views from many sectors in recent months. It has been a very interesting process and the views expressed today are also very important. I call Deputy Calleary to begin the questions.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the three presenters, who have given me a little bit of hope again. I note Mr. O'Keeffe is keen to downplay his role in the EOY competition but every orchestra needs a conductor. It is a great programme but I never knew anything about the detail in regard to the alumni and the work they do until Mr. O'Keeffe explained it.

As Senator Quinn said, we do not have a culture of entrepreneurship.

We should encourage people to fail. If one fails, one should get up on the horse again. I am from Mayo, where we are used to failure. However, we will sort it this week and Donegal will be quiet next week. One gets up on the horse again. In terms of that culture, we must all do it. While reference was made to return on investment, and risk monitoring, there is nothing about entrepreneurship culture here. There is mention of standards, the eurozone crisis and so forth - stuff that people are fed up with. The witnesses, with the influence they have, should put the development of an entrepreneurship culture to the fore and challenge us and the education system generally. Out of a class of 30 11-year-olds, how many would answer "start my own business" when asked what they want to do when they grow up? Possibly none of them. What would the delegates say to them to make them understand, even at the age of 11, that they could run their own businesses when they are older?

Mr. Moan touched on a major issue when he said there was no co-ordination between the relevant agencies. We have county enterprise boards, Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland and many other bodies and partnerships but there is no co-ordination. Some bodies do great work while others do nothing but much of the effort is being lost. How many organisations has Mr. Moan had to speak to in order to roll this programme out on a national basis?

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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I am fascinated by this discussion, which is very close to my own heart because I know it is the small and medium indigenous companies that will provide the employment opportunities for our young people. I had the honour of being an adjudicator for the Ernst & Young entrepreneur of the year competition, which I was delighted to do. The transition year students in a school in Buncrana, County Donegal were encouraged by their teachers to make products and approximately 200 children did so. Their teachers asked me how they could get these children to become entrepreneurs and to become self-sufficient. Donegal people are extraordinarily self-sufficient and enterprising. The school in Buncrana was looking for a solution and a way to move forward. The children were so excited, as were their parents and grandparents, who had helped them to make their products. It was fascinating.

I agree with everything that has been said but to cut to the chase and be political, I was shocked when Deputy Richard Bruton announced in the Seanad, several months ago, that the enterprise boards were to be subsumed into the local authorities. That was an absolutely crazy idea. The enterprise boards employ fewer than ten people and should have been merged with Enterprise Ireland. While I do not wish to insult people in local authorities, it is not in their nature to be enterprising. They are bureaucrats and they do not have the vision needed to support people with good ideas who come before them looking for assistance. Those in local authorities have no clue what it is like to set up or run a business and the same is true of those working in the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. They are not entrepreneurs. They are bureaucrats, although some of them are extremely good at what they do. I was a member of the first Dublin City Enterprise Board. As Mr. O'Keeffe has said, there are enormous opportunities for people to set up businesses but not if they come up against a bureaucratic stone wall. People come to the boards full of excitement about their projects. They have a vision of what they want to do and are innocent in their self confidence. When my business partner and I started, we did not know what we were facing into. We had to work 24 hours a day, seven days a week for 16 years. We worked on weekends, Christmas Day, New Year's Day and so forth and if we had not, the business would have collapsed. That business now employs 200 people. It was a labour of love for me, to see people getting jobs. Enterprise is in the Irish nature, which is obvious from the fact that so many do well when they go abroad. We are very independent-minded and do not have that Anglo or German mentality of wanting to do what we are told. Entrepreneurship suits the Irish mentality.

I found today's presentation very exciting and I wish the delegates continued success. We are very privileged to have so much foreign direct investment here but we must drive our recovery ourselves too.

Mr. Frank O'Keeffe:

I would like to get back to Deputy Calleary's point about the voice or the soundbites and not hearing enough about entrepreneurship and what we in Ernst & Young do with the entrepreneur of the year programme. We have a very strong voice, not only through our 350 alumni but also through our media partners, particularly RTE television, which produced five television programmes on entrepreneurship. Our live awards were attended by President Mary McAleese, as our guest of honour, for the past three years and this year they were attended by President Michael D. Higgins, along with many Deputies, Senators and business-influencers. We are also supported by The Irish Times, which features our entrepreneurs quite regularly and profiles them when they are announced as finalists. Through the Newstalk radio station, our voices and the voices of our entrepreneurs are constantly on the airwaves, talking about things that matter to small and medium enterprises and to entrepreneurs, both aspiring and actual. We do as much as we can to promote entrepreneurship but there must be a balance. Austerity is much discussed and rightly so, as many people are suffering here right now, but we need to hear a more balanced voice. We must get the positive message across and prove to people on the island of Ireland that there is a lot of success here. People need to look at the beacons of light and make sure they give themselves the best opportunity to go forward.

Deputy Calleary asked what I would say to an 11 year old in school. That is a very interesting question which I put to the entrepreneurs in our programme and thankfully it is they who are talking to the 11 year olds and not me. On a serious note, we must remember that the world is changing at a rapid rate. Many of our 11 year olds have iPads, mobile telephones and so forth and are using technology in a very different way from us. They see the world differently and think in global rather than national terms with regard to where they might be for the rest of their lives. They are very interested in doing different things and what we are trying to do with the entrepreneur of the year programme is make sure that we plant a seed in their minds so that they realise they can actually make a difference.

We employ a significant number of graduates and are in the lucky position of being able to hire 150 new graduates this year. Those graduates want a different experience at work. They have many ideas and some of them want to become entrepreneurs themselves, once they qualify as chartered accountants. As the world changes, we need to connect in with our people and with the younger generation in particular. If we can make a difference to a small percentage of those 11 year olds then perhaps by the time they are 25 or 35 they will have set up their own businesses and generated significant employment. It is not just the 11 year olds we must reach, however, but those at all stages in the education system, including third-level students.

I thank Senator White for her comments and wish to add to the point she made about Irish people and entrepreneurship. We are very proud of the fact that, per capita, Ireland is a very strong nation in terms of generating entrepreneurs. We have a general ability to interact with and integrate into different cultures very quickly. We are very good sellers and we like a bit of fun. That is a very good balance and sits well with entrepreneurship, which requires fantastic innovation, self-belief and a strong focus on doing things differently, beating the competition and generating jobs. That is what our programme is all about. We are trying to help entrepreneurs to unlock national and international opportunities. We try to connect them with other entrepreneurs around the world so that they can collaborate, beat bigger businesses and generate jobs.

Mr. Liam Griffin:

I do not have much to add, except for a few snippets. I have been in business for 38 years now and work 24 hours a day, seven days a week. We started with four staff and now have 400 and are trying desperately hard to keep them all at work. With regard to the rates issue, I wrote a cheque yesterday for Wexford County Council for €27,000 for one business.

I wrote another cheque for Wexford County Council for €27,900 and a cheque for Kilkenny County Council for €29,000 last Friday. On Sunday morning, I picked up the rubbish around the roads outside a world famous destination spa, of which I am very proud. We got world recognition and came third in the world twice. I cannot ask my staff to pick up the rubbish on the roads because it is against health and safety rules so I picked up the rubbish before I went to the match in Croke Park. I do it every Sunday morning and that is what I get from my local authority. It is criminal. Will my children do that? Not a chance. Why should they?

I am concerned about the domestic economy. I am involved as a volunteer in my local community. I deserve no praise for that because I do it because I want to. I have watched a club and county decimated of youngsters. We have five boys cutting corn in Australia who are gifted and very bright. This is a serious issue. There has been much talk, many meetings and reports but I am telling the committee the time for change has come. We have distilled this pot down to the base and if we do not get this pot right, we will subject our grandchildren to penury as well so this is urgent. All I am saying to the committee is that focused attention beats brilliance every time and it is time for focused attention and people to be decision makers and make serious recommendations. I have seen the GAA reports year-on-year with no action but, in fairness to our association, it is very good to take action in most areas and I am proud of it. However, if the committee saw the report in the Sunday Independentlast Sunday about what is happening throughout the country from Donegal to Kerry back to Wexford and all the way up along to the Border and the devastation caused to small rural clubs and the impact that is having on all our families and people, it will see it is unbelievable. I am fully supportive of the Entrepreneur of the Year programme and proud to have been in Silicon Valley this year, to have seen many things and to have had my eyes opened. I would like to see the people of this country get a fair chance and rules and regulations not all favouring the ruling class and working against the people who are trying to generate income. If we cannot generate enough income to support the ruling class, what happens next? I can tell the committee it will be some form of political revolution and many people in this room will not be part of it.

I appeal to the committee to read Mr. O'Keeffe's report. I have studied the G20 document. Why would we reinvent the wheel? That has been produced by the young entrepreneurs that will show the committee that Brazil and Canada leave us trailing in their wake. We were ahead of some of those countries a few years ago and it is up to us to create the circumstances. This is a very powerful committee if its title means what it says - the Joint Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. If this committee has power and teeth, it should be one of the major committees in this country to change it and turn it around, provided it is listened to and has the courage to do it as well. As an involved entrepreneur, I appeal to it to pay attention to what Mr. O'Keeffe has given us because it contains the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I am talking here on behalf of my grandchildren.

Mr. Gerry Moan:

In respect of Deputy Calleary's question about how many agencies we have gone to, the truth is that we started with the county enterprise boards but because they do not have the funding, we then end up in front of a county council. Then, because it does not have the funding, we end up in front of the Department of Social Protection, and because it does not have the funding, we end up with a cocktail of all the bits, so I end up prostituting my programme around the country. The people relying on that support end up doing the same.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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So €900,000 is all Mr. Moan needs?

Mr. Gerry Moan:

That is what it would take to run the entire programme around the country.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Is it fair to say that many others in the same area as Mr. Moan are doing the same thing?

Mr. Gerry Moan:

Absolutely, by all accounts, so there is no halo here. We are doing what we are doing because we see an opportunity to get people back into employment and get start-ups going. Other people are doing exactly the same thing so it is not just one initiative.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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They want to help.

Mr. Gerry Moan:

Absolutely, so I am not using this to pitch to the committee. I thank Senator White for her kind comments. If my accent sounds like it is from Donegal, that is maybe because I am hoarse. I am not from Donegal. I am what the community in which I started my business life would have called a runner. I came from Newry originally but started business life in County Louth.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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I was born in Dundalk. It is a good place with many entrepreneurs.

Mr. Gerry Moan:

I am a bloody Northerner originally but I have run my business in the South for the past 25 years, am 100% an Irishman and proud to do what we do.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Do Senator Michael Mullins and Senator Clune have any questions before we wrap up?

Deirdre Clune (Fine Gael)
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I thank the delegation for its important contribution. Sometimes the word "entrepreneur" can be a bit offputting. It is about somebody who has an idea and can start a business and create employment.

Mr. Liam Griffin:

They are sometimes referred to as crooks.

Deirdre Clune (Fine Gael)
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It is a word that many people do not really relate to or else feel is not for them. They feel it is above them, which it should not be as it is as much about somebody selling jelly beans as somebody working in the IT business so it is for everybody.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I missed part of the meeting but I look forward to reading that document. Obviously, it has been a very positive session and there is much food for thought in everything said, particularly those very strong words from Liam Griffin. I could see how he was successful on the hurling field. We have many issues to address. The banking situation is certainly one that exercises the minds of many. In the past few days, three guys who set up a nice little business in my town, rescued it from a redundancy situation, had 15 jobs and orders for €1 million between now and Christmas. However, they have the receiver in because the banks will not give them €150,000 to tide them over. That is the kind of thing we are up against and we have some major issues to address. Hopefully, strong people will take strong decisions during the remainder of this year and into next year because if we can address this major crisis in our country and get people back to work, the tide will lift all boats. We must nurture the entrepreneurs - the people who have the ideas - but we must make it possible for them to do business and start up as well. I like the idea of the local authorities being prepared to wait until the business is making money before they start levying charges to give them a break.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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That is a good idea.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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There is much food for thought and I very much appreciate everybody's contributions.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Griffin, Mr. O'Keeffe and Mr. Moan for attending the meeting. It was very important that we heard from the delegation before we finished our report because it brought another perspective to it. Like Deputy Calleary, I did not realise the in-depth work behind everything it does so that was informative and worthwhile. We will certainly get a chance to read all these documents before we make any recommendations. Likewise, we hope to contact it again because this is only a start for us. This is an issue on which we must focus as a committee and make the right changes. There is no point in our meeting on a weekly basis if it does not achieve anything so our aim is for this to feature into the Action Plan for Jobs and the budget and to keep driving it. Our job is to keep lobbying, no matter who is at the helm as Minister. Does the delegation have any further comments?

Mr. Gerry Moan:

If the committee would like us to help it write the report, we would be willing to do so.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Do Mr. O'Keeffe and Mr. Griffin have anything to add?

Mr. Frank O'Keeffe:

I will leave the last word to Mr. Griffin. I thank the committee for inviting us to the meeting. The entrepreneurial voice is really strong and growing in Ireland and we need to embrace it as much as we can. There needs to be a better balance and beacon of light for hope in Ireland. The time is now and we would do anything to support this initiative within my firm but, more important, with the alumni from our entrepreneur of the year programme.

Mr. Liam Griffin:

I am part of the alumni and was chairman of a grouping that has been working hard trying to do things for which there is no reward. For example, we are taking on all of County Wexford and I am making sure we get into every secondary school this year to talk about entrepreneurship. That is a small step and we are going to do that with each of us telling our own story. We have groupings from the mid-20s through to people in their 70s in the alumni and they are exceptional and wonderful people with some great ideas, some of whom have failed but have great ideas as well. On behalf of the alumni, I can say we will make ourselves available to speak to anybody in private as a grouping at any stage if we can offer anything that will help our country, with no fanfare, talk or cost.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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We will take Mr. Griffin up on that some day.