Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)

I thank the witnesses - Dr. Devine, Professor Maguire and Professor Murphy - for their presentations and the papers they submitted, which we received and read.

I want to focus on the speech given yesterday by the Minister of State for European affairs and defence, Deputy Thomas Byrne. He was speaking at an event hosted by the Institute of International and European Affairs. At the meeting, he referred to Article 29 of the Constitution, which does not permit Ireland to join an EU mutual defence pact. He then went on to say "I believe that we must approach our security and defence from a policy of principles-based pragmatism" and "We need to champion legislative reform governing the deployment of our defence forces, such as amending the triple-lock". When you amend the triple lock, it stops being a triple lock; it is abolished. The Minister of State called in his speech for a policy of "principles-based pragmatism" in how we approach Ireland's future security and defence. He stated that the upcoming June meeting of the European Council will follow the NATO summit in The Hague. He added, "The timing of the NATO meeting will underscore the fact that coherence and complementarity with NATO, will be part of the picture". He finished by saying that "in taking a principles-based pragmatic approach to our security and defence, I believe that we should continue to partner with NATO in line with our existing principles, within frameworks such as Partnership for Peace".

At the same meeting, a Mr. Guillaume de la Brosse, who works in the European Commission's defence industry and space department, outlined that the thrust of matters at the moment is to boost the defence industries within the EU so they can increase the manufacturing of military equipment and weapons. Along with other speakers at the event, he stressed that the need for defence capability investment must run in tandem with a major expansion of Europe's military industrial base. I am referring to this just for context.

I want to focus in particular on the issue of whether a referendum is required. In Dr. Devine's paper, she argued it is. She quoted the Tánaiste and Minister for Defence, who stated on 8 May, when questioned about this, that a national public plebiscite was not required. He stated there have been a number of calls for a public plebiscite on the proposed changes to the triple lock. Dr. Devine made the argument that the proposed changes to the triple lock do require a referendum because it exists beyond national legislation. Making the key point indicating where the Government is coming from on this, she stated the Government rather simplistically believes that because it was "clever" enough not to put the triple lock in the protocol attached to the Lisbon treaty in 2013, and because the triple lock is not in the Constitution, it is not required to hold a referendum. An article in The Journal states the Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, coined the phrase "principles-based pragmatism". This is going to be the buzzword. I do not say this to be confrontational in any way; I am just quoting directly what the Minister of State said.

The solemn declaration made in Seville in June 2002 stated that the Government of Ireland made a "firm commitment to the people of Ireland, solemnized in this Declaration, that a referendum will be held in Ireland on the adoption of any such decision and on any future Treaty which would involve Ireland departing from its traditional policy of military neutrality." It went on to state, "Ireland reiterates that the participation of contingents of the Irish Defence Forces in overseas operations, including those carried out under the European security and defence policy, requires ... the authorisation of the [triple lock]."

Will Dr. Devine comment on that? Clearly, Ireland is not joining NATO. We are now partners with NATO and have been for some time. Statements from the Government and from security sources outline how we have been partners for a considerable period. Everything now is based on principle-based pragmatism. The problem is that the case being put forward is that Ireland is not abandoning military neutrality. I apologise for reading out all of that but I thought it was necessary to set the context of where we are at as of this week.