Mr. Conor King:

The Deputy spoke about stabilisation of numbers and when something is a crisis. Probably taking criticism in 2019 before this esteemed committee, we said we are in a state of crisis. In 2021, we would have repeated it. I think we have to call it a retention catastrophe at this stage. When does a crisis become more than a crisis? When it intensifies.

I refer to stabilising around 7,600 when we know the Commission on the Defence Forces tells us we have to aim for 11,500 to provide a minimum credible deterrent or a minimum credible operational capability to defend the State and deliver our roles assigned in the White Paper. If we are stabilising around a suboptimal number, we are then admitting things are not working. Therefore, we have to think about what will work and stop ignoring the employee voice and the people on the ground who have suggestions. They can make constructive suggestions and point out the likes of the working time directive. The Deputy is correct that it is the single greatest retention measure that could ever be implemented.

Before I forget about the working time directive, we organised a conference on it in 2018 when we were still being locked out of talks and the Department refused to talk to us on it. We organised a conference and brought in experts from the German armed forces, called the Bundeswehr, people in from the Swedish armed forces, legal experts and members of An Garda Síochána who, in 2012, negotiated a working time agreement with their Commissioner and the Department of Justice. The Garda has certainty. Without commenting on current issues, we would love to be in a position where we had a dispute over working time or rosters because we are so far away from it.

Regarding the point at which it becomes an existential crisis, do not take my word for it. I will pass it on to Lieutenant Commander O’Mearain on the Naval Service.