Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour) | Oireachtas source

I apologise for missing the earlier contributions but I had something else to do. I have read the written submission and I thank our guests for it. It raises some very important debating points. If I raise an issue that has already been covered, I ask our guests to say so. I will make two quick observations first. First, in terms of looking at the Irish defence spend, and I have some experience of monitoring public expenditure, obviously GDP is not a reliable comparative indicator in terms of this nation's spend vis-à-visthat of other nations because of the peculiarities of our economic system. Even GNI* can be a distortion in that regard. What one gets for one's cash is a better indicator. My second observation is on air defence. There are analogous nations, poorer nations like Czechia or Slovakia, that have leased Swedish jet fighter aircraft on a long-term basis and provided themselves with an independent air protection, or at least airspace monitoring, system. These are countries that are much poorer than Ireland.

My first question arises in the context of the 20th anniversary of the invasion of Iraq. There have been many profound consequences of that and maybe they could be debated at another time. One of those consequences is the disconnect between the confidence of the European view of defence and security and that of the southern world, or the southern hemisphere countries. That is very evident now, even with what one would imagine is a black-and-white moral issue like the invasion of Ukraine. Many nations now are not willing to vote at the UN or other international bodies because they point back to the breach of trust in Iraq. It would seem to me that Ireland has a role to play there, rather than simply aligning ourselves, full square, as we are. Obviously in terms of Ukraine, we are 100% there. We could have a role in terms of being explainers and persuaders on issues like that because we took a different stand from that of Britain and the US on the invasion of Iraq. I would be interested in our guests' take on that.

My second question relates to the view posited on common defence and the fact that there are strata of opinion within the EU. We have France at one extreme, saying that we need an EU military. We posed questions to the ambassadors and public representatives of a number of Baltic countries and eastern member states of the EU who have a much deeper reliance on NATO. They are fearful that any strengthening of a common EU defence would diminish the engagement of the United States and weaken defence. I am interested in hearing the views of our guests on that point. Where does that leave us in the context of another Trump or Trump-like US President who may not be at all committed to European defence in the way that the USA has been since the Second World War?

My final question relates to our unique position. I am interested in our guests' views on the roles within PESCO that Ireland could take up but I am also wondering if there are roles outside of PESCO that we could be world leaders on. We have established a college of peacekeeping and we have one of the strongest historical involvements and experience in peacekeeping. To link back to my first question, would that not be a way of reaching out to the non-NATO, non-EU world, to say that there is something we can offer that is unique in terms of peacekeeping?