Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I want to focus on two issues. In terms of appalling vistas, a judge once dismissed the whole idea of an appalling vista. He was a very good judge, one of the better ones on the Bench in England and Wales at the time. Unfortunately, the appalling vista came to pass, so they do happen. The idea is not to provide powers that enable them to happen. I see one of the officials finds this entertaining, but I have concerns about the amount of power that this measure gives, not to the Irish security services but to foreign security services. In Ireland, we have a national security service that barely operates. We do not have a large international security apparatus. Some states that do are present in Ireland. When it suits us, we like to think we are the 51st state of one such state and when it does not suit us, we like to portray the polar opposite.

The Minister of State is very much not a stooge for the American, Chinese or Russian embassies, but there is a possibility that, down the line, there will be Ministers who may be stooges for other powers. Business and money come into this in a very big way. A very high-profile trade stand-off is taking place between China and the United States on the development of computer components. Is it beyond the realms of possibility that national security apparatuses are used, abused and manipulated to further the financial interests of a state? I believe it is not beyond the realms of possibility. It is quite likely that that would happen, in particular in western economies when we find ourselves with no resources whatsoever or in a time of a shortage of resources. The United States less so because the dollar is the fiat currency and the US is not in decline in the way that Europe is. I am digressing, however.

I am saying that there is a strong possibility for abuse. What the Minister of State is saying is that an order can be made by him or his successors. The legal person could be Jimmy Browne or an international corporation but let us not pretend that a criminal sanction against a corporation is less of a criminal sanction than one against an individual, unless of course we think corporations are not entitled to fair procedures and natural justice. If that is the position, we should say it out loud but we must tell IDA Ireland in advance that is the case.